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Sheri Angela
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.11.08 18:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cloak ships are similar to submarines in modern warfare and in modern warfare exists several platforms in combination that can counter submarines. I think a fun activity to add to the game would be an option to hunt cloaked ships.
To make this work and increase the barrier entry into this occupation I would suggest making it a team activity with multiple pilots being required to triangulate the ships location. The cloaked ship maintains the option of always relocating and disrupting the locating process of their opposition. This would create another activity that players could do and in trade possibly earn ISK through other players. It would most certaintly change strategies in the game. Thoughts? |
Markus Blaze
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.11.08 19:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tears Go Here |
ZheoTheThird
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
147
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Posted - 2013.11.08 19:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sheri Angela wrote:Thoughts?
No. Just no. |
Sheri Angela
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.11.08 20:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm all about the tears bub. Imagine the buckets we could fill with them if we could hunt cloaked ships. |
Leto Thule
Sons of Retribution
132
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Posted - 2013.11.08 20:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
This looks like a covert "AFK cloaker solution" thread. |
Sheri Angela
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.11.08 20:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Funny... my teacher taught me that all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. |
Markus Blaze
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2013.11.08 20:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Leto Thule wrote:This looks like a covert "AFK cloaker solution" thread.
It's almost like a, cloaked "AFK cloaker solution" thread. . . |
Sheri Angela
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.11.08 21:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Do you agree though we'd get some new tears to throw into those buckets? |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries
Gentlemen's Agreement
113
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Posted - 2013.11.09 05:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Posting in yet another nerf afk cloak tears montage |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
349
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 11:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Another day, another nullbear  |
Homem na Estrada
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.11.09 11:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
I think people just come around to post things like it everytime they receive a drop from a black ops fleet.
LoL
P.S.: This tear collecting moto is so overused that is almost reaching the overratedness. |
Sheri Angela
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.11.09 15:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Funny I say actively hunt with a team cloakers which would be a derivative of PVP and I get called a nullbear. I'm fine with removing local from the game and I get called a nullbear. Lot of talk, but not much substance.
To all those whining about this being AFK issue here is formula to rile you up with : AFK Miner=AFK Ratter=AFK Cloaker=Anthing AFK != Docked. |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
9
|
Posted - 2013.11.09 18:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sheri Angela wrote:Funny I say actively hunt with a team cloakers which would be a derivative of PVP and I get called a nullbear. I'm fine with removing local from the game and I get called a nullbear. Lot of talk, but not much substance.
To all those whining about this being AFK issue here is formula to rile you up with : AFK Miner=AFK Ratter=AFK Cloaker=Anthing AFK != Docked.
Short answer: As long as local provides perfect intel, cloaks basically must persist as-is, as long term cloaking is the only mechanism that even vaguely counters the flawless intelligence system of local.
Quash local and you could maybe start talking about cloaks.
Additionally, regarding this:
Quote:Lot of talk, but not much substance.
Your ideas are not new and have been shot down for myriad reasons in the past. Nobody is obligated (nor particularly inclined) to furnish a reasoned response to the same ****** idea the fiftieth time it has been proposed. Do your homework first and you will not have this problem. |
Spank YouLater
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.11.09 23:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
What will be even funnier is when ccp do change this all these pro 'afk pvpers' will cry to the heavens.
They've already started, people are just a bit blinded at the moment. Watch and see.
And FYI before you 'leet pvpers' start, no I'm not a 'nullbear' I'm a 'lowsecbear'. |
Homem na Estrada
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2013.11.10 10:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP moto on development is crab development, going sideways to reach forwards.
People asking non-sense is nothing new, indeed. People are even asking to make easier for a one person corp to take sov. What in heavens name tells someone that it is wise to make mechanics to deliver sov to a one person corp ? A whole system to a couple of alts ?
Cloaking non-sense is already bearing fruit, as covert ops cloak able ships were both nerfed and never really an option alone for less than a excellent covert ops pilot. Local thing is a pain for low sec covert ops pilots, indeed, but the worse is the changes they made that makes covert ops ships very easy to spot. We are on the mercy of a frigate with nothing more than a couple alts or friends and a combat scanning, While once found, our ships are not a match for a much easier on trainning ship to kill us.
The only exception is the industrial covert ship, the blockade runner, which is possible to be good fitted for its role, use covert cloaks, and also warp strong to just pass by those strategic cruiser nutshaving a ship that doesnt even need RL skill to be a threat for others.
The thing is, to worth its salt, covert ops pilots must be good, better than strategic cruiser wannabe pirates, and it is not cloak or ingame skill that makes cloakers good, it is the pilot that dare choose that way, usually a person with a inquisitive and creative mind who seek activelly new strategies and careful thought moves, contrary to the ones who choose gun boats which are mostly driven by a headless sense of "I want to see things blowing up and shoot people on the face to collect tears I cant even know if they shed".
So, as long as cloak exists, and serve its purpose, trigger happy headless nuts will be shedding tears when a drop of widows come to redeem them from their sins. (lol) |
JINGKO BELLS
Hexavalent Chromium Industries
17
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Posted - 2013.11.10 13:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sheri Angela wrote:Cloak ships are similar to submarines in modern warfare and in modern warfare exists several platforms in combination that can counter submarines.
Actually a modern submarine is virtually undetectable unless it needs to do something other than run silent, run deep. Say for example, to fire a missile or torpedo or make a radio transmission. That's when they become vulnerable. So actually your analogy is more accurate than you think, but defeats your argument. In Eve, a cloaked ship has no offensive capability until it de-cloaks, in real life, a submarine can be undetectable, but can't do **** while it is.
o/
|
Sheri Angela
6
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Posted - 2013.11.10 20:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Won't pretend to be Jane's in this topic of submarine capability, but if true then there will certainly be a counter developed in time as always with the never ending arms's race of mankind. As to being able to counter an engaging cloaked pilot yes once they are decloaked you are able to counter their capabilities, but a good cloaked pilots (in combination w/ local) have a significant advantage in determine the terms of engagement which contribute to the harder aspects of countering them which I don't believe should be changed, but just stating. However they should not be able to earn intel or any advantage without continuous risk as any undocked activity should include. We would not tolerate a miner, ratter, or any other activity in space where they would be immune from being located so why should the cloaked pilot be the only exception. |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
79
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 02:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
The problem is local. Just turn it off in null sec. Afk cloakers ruining your day will no longer be a problem. No need to hunt cloaked ships--just deal with it like we do in wormhole space. Of course, since the null bears would no longer have local, you wouldn't see unprotected 30 man bot mining fleets in null sec anymore.... |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
11
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Posted - 2013.11.11 04:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sheri Angela wrote:I DON'T GET IT!!!1!1!
We know, dear. We know. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Caldari State Capturing
639
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Posted - 2013.11.11 05:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Sheri Angela wrote:I'm all about the tears bub. Imagine the buckets we could fill with them if we could hunt cloaked ships.
Be honest - you don't want someone being 100% safe cloaking so that you can be 100% safe ratting.
But you forgot about risk vs reward:
The cloaker can not earn income doing his job.
He has zero risk and zero reward.
You can earn income from ratting.
High reward should have a high risk.
Seems to be working correctly as it is.
|
Baali Tekitsu
B0SSAURA
xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
370
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Posted - 2013.11.11 06:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
Spank YouLater wrote:What will be even funnier is when ccp do change this all these pro 'afk pvpers' will cry to the heavens.
They've already started, people are just a bit blinded at the moment. Watch and see.
And FYI before you 'leet pvpers' start, no I'm not a 'nullbear' I'm a 'lowsecbear'.
No youre an (forum)alt of a lowsecbear. |
Sancka
ark industry plc
0
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Posted - 2013.11.11 07:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
hunting coverts is sort of easy if there moving from system to system .
1/ ninja sabre
2/ insta locking ceptors
3/ drag bubbles with something to decloak on said bubble
all work very well, 90% of bomber pilots don't know how to fly them even ones that class them selfs as pro's |
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front
371
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Posted - 2013.11.11 12:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
Rall Mekin wrote:The problem is local. Just turn it off in null sec. Afk cloakers ruining your day will no longer be a problem. No need to hunt cloaked ships--just deal with it like we do in wormhole space. Of course, since the null bears would no longer have local, you wouldn't see unprotected 30 man bot mining fleets in null sec anymore....
Cant really compare the null sec AFK cloakers with WH, WH dont have to fear a 20 man Black Ops fleet hotdropping at any given time. At least if inside a WH with no local, if you dont see them on D-Scan they are in cloaky ships, and their tank will be weak. Ofcause if its 20 bombers they can deal some damage, but you dont have the AFK cloaker WHO can brigde those in every 5 min if needed.
I like ops idear, to have a team of players being able to use a heat seaking device and by using the map and hard effort being able to find a claked ship sitting still. The longer the ship sits still on same grid, the easier he will be to find trough heat showing on system map.
Nisroc Angels - The Obsidian Front
Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
|
Sheri Angela
6
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Posted - 2013.11.11 14:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
Somebody messaged me in game, didn't feel comfy posting on the forums, left something I hadn't recognized about the interceptor changes. If they are nullified in Rubicon good chance they can follow a tech 3 nullified through bubbles which has been a problem for fleets chasing them. They tend to get caught in their own bubbles. So in short tech 3 cloaky nullys stack up more warp stabs just in-case.
Good point. Most wspace warfare seems to happen between groups within a few systems of one another due to the time it takes to travel the fleet with the risk being unexpected encounter with hostile group and/or target leaving before they arrive or stranded from their home system having to spend time to work their way back to it. This can be significant investment in time, but also why we seen such great small gang warfare coming out of wspace veterans. Hot droppers get to stay at home and project power much further for a much lesser investment of money/time. Though don't really think this needs changing with this only be viable tactic when intel has identified target and what can be known gained to minimize the risk.
With intel in mind I would say that it is a valuable benefit and can indirectly lead to ISK, hence no benefit should be obtained without risk. You are effectively safe once at your mid-point and reaping (action) a benefit. Ratters/Miners, etc still have the penalty of paying attention when undocked, staying aligned, etc at the risk of somebody coming in on them regardless if they are cloaky or not. A cloaked pilot does not have this penalty.
As to catching you moving sure it can be done as is the same for when a cloaked pilot engages, but again out in mid-space they are effectively isolated from other players with essentially no chance of finding them. Again re-iterate if you are undocked you are in danger always.
TIDI = Increasing profit while decreasing service level to the customer disguised a nicely marketed benefit. What would Amazon have done here. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
694
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 15:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sheri Angela wrote:As to catching you moving sure it can be done as is the same for when a cloaked pilot engages, but again out in mid-space they are effectively isolated from other players with essentially no chance of finding them. Again re-iterate if you are undocked you are in danger always.
Yes. With he difference that you cannot force someone to undock or to leave their POS shield.
We all understand this is only about nullbear wanting to remove the only potential risk from their otherwise 100% safe ratting/mining activities. People is not stupid and perfectly understand how fake are these lame arguments copied and pasted (with several alts) ad nauseam on the forum.
Thanks God seems also CCP realize how toxic for the general gameplay is having null sec areas so easy to lock and secure for unlimited farming; and in fact they adding more covert ops option, inty immunity to bubbles and soon BLOPS overhaul.
People use hotdrops because is, de facto, the only limited way to put a threat there. And often the only way for a smaller entity to do something against a larger one.
And this chance is what you folks wish to remove.
|
Abel Tellor
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2013.11.11 17:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
*decloaks*
No.
*recloaks* |
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
15
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 18:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sheri Angela wrote:
With intel in mind I would say that it is a valuable benefit and can indirectly lead to ISK, hence no benefit should be obtained without risk. You are effectively safe once at your mid-point and reaping (action) a benefit. Ratters/Miners, etc still have the penalty of paying attention when undocked, staying aligned, etc at the risk of somebody coming in on them regardless if they are cloaky or not. A cloaked pilot does not have this penalty.
If you really want to explore that avenue, please explain why you should have perfect knowledge of who is in a system merely because your fat ass is also present in said system.
Local is brokenly overpowered. Cloaking is only almost as powerful as local, and stands as the sole balancing factor against the broken OPness of local. |
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
79
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 19:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ynot Eyob wrote:Rall Mekin wrote:The problem is local. Just turn it off in null sec. Afk cloakers ruining your day will no longer be a problem. No need to hunt cloaked ships--just deal with it like we do in wormhole space. Of course, since the null bears would no longer have local, you wouldn't see unprotected 30 man bot mining fleets in null sec anymore.... Cant really compare the null sec AFK cloakers with WH, WH dont have to fear a 20 man Black Ops fleet hotdropping at any given time. At least if inside a WH with no local, if you dont see them on D-Scan they are in cloaky ships, and their tank will be weak. Ofcause if its 20 bombers they can deal some damage, but you dont have the AFK cloaker WHO can brigde those in every 5 min if needed. I like ops idear, to have a team of players being able to use a heat seaking device and by using the map and hard effort being able to find a claked ship sitting still. The longer the ship sits still on same grid, the easier he will be to find trough heat showing on system map.
OF COURSE I CAN!
For comparison:
C5 Site Running Fleet (RR Tengus) = 2.5 Bil (WH)
Nullbear Mackinaw/Hulk Mining Fleets = 1 bil- 3 bil (Null)
Also note:
C5 Site Escalation Fleet (WH) = 16-25 billion
In wormhole space, we routinely throw obscene amounts of money around, despite the risk of:
1. Gank fleet logged in your hole, possibly supported by triage carrier while you were sleeping
2. A hole full of PWNage opening to you with caps sieged on field
Keep in mind we also mine (sometimes) not knowing if theres 20 bombers just AFK around to grief you
When it does happen, we take our losses with space honor and move on with life. When the null bear dies, its some akin to: "OMG I DIED. YOU GUYS, YOU GUYS, YOU GUYS [His Land Lords] I JUST GOT MY 10 MACKINAWS GANKED BY 20 MEN IN BOMBERS. YOU GUYS, YOU GUYS, YOU GUYS COME SAVE ME AND MAKE THEM GO AWAY SO I CAN KEEP PAYING MY RENT PLEAZE!"
The problem is, null bears have been allowed to frollick through null asteroid belts in absolute safety, with no obligation to actually try to defend their space of profits. You should not be making billions without the fear something terrible is able to happen to you any moment.
I am SO glad to see the interceptor/ warp velocity changes happening. We are shipping a ton of them into hole, and will be shot gunning through all the belts/ore sites we encounter as we roam our null exits.
Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO!(Terms and conditions apply.) |
Sheri Angela
6
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Posted - 2013.11.11 19:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
I can find somebody in a POS and can bash that POS until they come out or until there is no POS to protect them hence risk is still in place though this counter requires investment of time, hardware, and players. All ISK comes into the game through in-space activity hence somebody should incur risk to earn it in some manner if they are in-space. Even a trader who sits in station all day long has to rely on other players to take risk and earn isk, move market goods, etc.
I do not see how creating a multi-party activity, similar to taking down a POS, to counter cloaks would make nullsec, lowsec, highsec, or wspace 100% safe.
Kind of funny that you have to BLOP to project power... again wspacers seem to be quiet capable in generating fear and projecting power without BLOPs. That's ignoring the difficulty of locating a specific enemy in wspace which requires patience and inguinity especially with ever changing connections. Again I have no concerns with BLOPs only the fact that I can't locate a cloaked ship in mid-space whose gaining a strategic and intel advantage without risk.
Local by itself just tells you somebody is in system. It does not tell you what they are flying nor their location. You have to be undocked and if uncloaked there is risk to collecting that information which isn't the case for mid-space cloakey. Again would be fine with removing local from the game, but still doesn't address the issue of a capability of cloaking not having a counter.
TIDI = Increasing profit while decreasing service level to the customer disguised a nicely marketed benefit. What would Amazon have done here. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
696
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 02:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sheri Angela wrote:All ISK comes into the game through in-space activity hence somebody should incur risk to earn it in some manner if they are in-space.
I agree.
Ratters and miners in LS as in NPC null share their quote of risks; so do ratters and miners in WH space. And the same in HS. But sov null residents? Nooooo, they shouldn't face any risk! Even the only very limited and only potential risk from a frigate cloacked in their system doing nothing have to be removed! For some reason this spoiled minority of players think to be the only gameplay entiteled to perfect safety, like an istanced area or a separate PvE server.
And they also think to be entiteled to bother the whole EVE community reposting continuosly the same lame arguments with different NPC corps alts.
And you discuss, explain your arguments, talk about game balance and how is not correct to remove parts of game options only to make their farming easyer... but is always a waste of time cause always ends with them stating some argument like "yes ok, but we don't give a **** to the general gameplay, we have to do this cause we are special snowflakes"
There's nothing wrong in cloacking, AFKing, hotdropping. What is wrong here is that to kill a single miner in some sov null area the only viable options are based on coordinating cynos, T3 skills, SB fleets, covops, BLOPS, bridges, AFK cloacking for days, hotdrops and so on.
THIS is bad for the gameplay and need to change as soon as possible. |
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