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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.09.02 18:29:00 -
[61]
 Quote:
TomB
didnt you say you werent out to nerf things, just to boost the weaker components?
Seems your fooling around here. You hate laser users?
How is this hurting lasers weapons, from what i see on chaos now, lasers are better than they ever have been... They do more Dot and like 10% more dot per cap usage than they use to do, meaning that they are potentially the most devistation weapons in the game, and potentially the worst. They take downs shields faster than any weapon class out there (now) and let me guess u want them to take down armour the fastest too? Leave that to projectiles.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 18:35:00 -
[62]
A word of advice to all non-chaos testers:
Those "shield boost amplifiers" need "shield manegement" lvl4 - so train it if you want to use them.
free speech not allowed here |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.09.02 19:18:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Valeria on 02/09/2003 19:18:59
Ok I was wrong, they do stack, atleast today. And the bonus is 20%.
So an Armaggedon using a XLarge C5-L can boost 2063 shield every 4 seconds, using 400 capacitor.
That still doesn't feel right.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.09.02 19:36:00 -
[64]
Hehe, I love my shield management lvl 4
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.02 20:03:00 -
[65]
Quote:
Edited by: Valeria on 02/09/2003 19:18:59
Ok I was wrong, they do stack, atleast today. And the bonus is 20%.
So an Armaggedon using a XLarge C5-L can boost 2063 shield every 4 seconds, using 400 capacitor.
That still doesn't feel right.
If this is true, STOP IT NOW. These items have to be non stackable.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.09.02 20:16:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Lartfor on 02/09/2003 20:19:10
Quote:
Edited by: Valeria on 02/09/2003 19:18:59
Ok I was wrong, they do stack, atleast today. And the bonus is 20%.
So an Armaggedon using a XLarge C5-L can boost 2063 shield every 4 seconds, using 400 capacitor.
That still doesn't feel right.
Ok wait one second... How long does it take to do 2063 dmg to the shields... I would think allot longer than 4 seconds... How much cap does it take to do 2063 dmg to shields... I would think ALLOT more than 400 (leaving projectiles out for that one.  ). But any way if those numbers are right... Then thier problem with shield hardeners has just turned into an eaven bigger problem with shield boosters. Recharge half your shields every 4 seconds?
Are we turning this game into 30 minute fights followed by 5 second escape?
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Scobichevskaya
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Posted - 2003.09.02 20:27:00 -
[67]
I think the resistance should stay at 70% but only one of each type of hardener could be equipped (so you can't have 2 EM hardeners, but you can still have 1 Heat, 1 ballistic, and 1 EM). This solves the issue with Scorpion tank setup. The Scorp is a high tech ship and should be able to utilize technology to its advantage. The Amarr ships are heavy damage dealers; the Caldari ships are and should remain the most defensive ships.
Before any changes are made, I would really like the developers to just fix one thing at a time otherwise, they may have to rebalance everything again. I think they should fix missiles first, then adjust guns, and then shield hardeners.
How will shield transfer devices be affected by these changes? Will they become useless with the changes to the shield boosters? I like to fly my Scorpion around with my shield hardeners and repair the shields of my teammates, but with the shield hardeners getting nerfed, this may become a less viable option (and thus reducing some teamplay tactics).
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RUS / RUA
RUSSIAN Team
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.09.02 20:42:00 -
[68]
Quote:
I think the resistance should stay at 70% but only one of each type of hardener could be equipped (so you can't have 2 EM hardeners, but you can still have 1 Heat, 1 ballistic, and 1 EM). This solves the issue with Scorpion tank setup. The Scorp is a high tech ship and should be able to utilize technology to its advantage. The Amarr ships are heavy damage dealers; the Caldari ships are and should remain the most defensive ships.
Before any changes are made, I would really like the developers to just fix one thing at a time otherwise, they may have to rebalance everything again. I think they should fix missiles first, then adjust guns, and then shield hardeners.
How will shield transfer devices be affected by these changes? Will they become useless with the changes to the shield boosters? I like to fly my Scorpion around with my shield hardeners and repair the shields of my teammates, but with the shield hardeners getting nerfed, this may become a less viable option (and thus reducing some teamplay tactics).
Well i agree with this but in a different way, i think shield hardeners should be limited to 60% (70% for high end ones) and there should be a limit to obly one being active at an given time.
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.09.02 20:44:00 -
[69]
Quote:
The Scorp is a high tech ship and should be able to utilize technology to its advantage. The Amarr ships are heavy damage dealers; the Caldari ships are and should remain the most defensive ships.
Hmmm why don't you take a look at structure and armor values on caldari ships and compare with the rest. You ll find out that caldari are hardly the most defensive ships... infact they are the weakest ships.
Medium slots should not make a tank. Low slots should. Amarr ships... most low slots , most structure and armor hps. Those ships should be able to become tanks not the weakest ones.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.02 21:07:00 -
[70]
Quote:
Quote:
The Scorp is a high tech ship and should be able to utilize technology to its advantage. The Amarr ships are heavy damage dealers; the Caldari ships are and should remain the most defensive ships.
Hmmm why don't you take a look at structure and armor values on caldari ships and compare with the rest. You ll find out that caldari are hardly the most defensive ships... infact they are the weakest ships.
Medium slots should not make a tank. Low slots should. Amarr ships... most low slots , most structure and armor hps. Those ships should be able to become tanks not the weakest ones.
You are so completely WRONG!!!
There are 2 types of defence, the high-tech defence in form of shields, the low-tech defence of armor/structure.
That's why the caldari high-tech ships have most shields in the game and most slots to boost their shield, but the lowest armor/structure and the worst ability to boost these.
And the complete opposite is true for the low-tech amarr ships. While gallente and Minmatar are something in between, trying to use a good mix of high and low tech.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Scobichevskaya
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Posted - 2003.09.02 21:22:00 -
[71]
Quote:
You are so completely WRONG!!!
There are 2 types of defence, the high-tech defence in form of shields, the low-tech defence of armor/structure.
That's why the caldari high-tech ships have most shields in the game and most slots to boost their shield, but the lowest armor/structure and the worst ability to boost these.
And the complete opposite is true for the low-tech amarr ships. While gallente and Minmatar are something in between, trying to use a good mix of high and low tech.
Caldari ships have the best shields. Amarr ships have the best armor. With the new changes to the armor repair, relying on armor may now become a viable option for the Amarr race. With the new changes to the shield hardeners, Caldari ships will become a lot weaker and have nothing going for them except for EW and maybe missiles. Caldari ships have the least turret slots and low slots. Currently missiles are useless, but hopefully that will change soon. Also, don't just think about the effects the changes of the shield hardeners have on the Scorpion, they effect the other Caldari ships such as the Moa. Why use a Moa if it has almost the same defense as a Maller but the Moa does only 50-60% of the damage? (of course, the missiles may change this and this is why the developers need to change one thing at a time.)
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RUS / RUA
RUSSIAN Team
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Frontier
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Posted - 2003.09.02 21:27:00 -
[72]
if your going to do this, I think all E/W should work against npc pirates.
Not everybody uses their bships for pvp & my scorp will be laughed at by npc rats
Frontier
The Mighty |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.09.02 21:43:00 -
[73]
That would be a good idea. Give NPCs a targetting range so you can use dampeners.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 21:55:00 -
[74]
Quote:
Edited by: Valeria on 02/09/2003 19:18:59
Ok I was wrong, they do stack, atleast today. And the bonus is 20%.
So an Armaggedon using a XLarge C5-L can boost 2063 shield every 4 seconds, using 400 capacitor.
That still doesn't feel right.
Well, but for that it would need to sacrifice all it's low slots for the boost amplifiers, right? That is a pretty big sacrifice.
And even lasers and hybrids can do 2000 shield damage with less than 400 cap easily - a tachyon hit me two times on chaos today for 1111 damage.
(If you count it's average damage it would quite probably need more than 400 cap to make 2000 shield damage, but not much more. A mega beam or 425 rails can definatly deal 200 shield damage for less than 400 cap.)
free speech not allowed here |
Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.09.02 21:59:00 -
[75]
Quote:
Well, but for that it would need to sacrifice all it's low slots for the boost amplifiers, right? That is a pretty big sacrifice.
And even lasers and hybrids can do 2000 shield damage with less than 400 cap easily - a tachyon hit me two times on chaos today for 1111 damage.
(If you count it's average damage it would quite probably need more than 400 cap to make 2000 shield damage, but not much more. A mega beam or 425 rails can definatly deal 200 shield damage for less than 400 cap.)
Thats not the point, the point is that if u beef up your cap u could be nearly invinsible... 2000 cap every 4 seconds? hell 8 Tachs could now do that dmg.
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.02 22:09:00 -
[76]
Edited by: dalman on 02/09/2003 22:11:13
I hope you guys really understand that it's simply not accaptable that this module is stackable.
Earlier in the thread, people are talking about that only amarr ships should have the possibility to be a tank, and that by increasing armor, and that Caldari ships shouldn't be able to be shield based tanks. That opinion is so wrong.
And now what??? Amarr ships also gets the possibilty to become an insane shield based tank!
This needs to be fixed NOW. There's NO WAY you can let the patch go live with this insane stacking module.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 22:12:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 22:14:38
Quote:
Thats not the point, the point is that if u beef up your cap u could be nearly invinsible... 2000 cap every 4 seconds? hell 8 Tachs could now do that dmg.
Well, it could use 2 10% cap rechargers in it's remaining med slots - since it'S low slots are all taken - but that won't help much.
We are talking about a 100 cap/s drain here. No BS can sustain that with that setup. Since (damage mod boosted) weapons can deal 200 shield damage for a lot less cap... Well, most. The tach probably cant, but all other lasers and hybrids, nevermind the projectiles, should be able too.
And the arma will deal not much damage witout mods.
And dalman, keep calm. The patch isn't due for at least 1-2 weeks I think. The balancing is perhaps finished for 50% - max.
That a shield tank arma/apoc has to be tested before we can decide if it's really uber. As said, such a "tank" would only have a pop gun, it wouldn't deal much damage.
free speech not allowed here |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.09.02 22:39:00 -
[78]
Not 100 / second. It would only boost when the shields are down more than 2000 units.
Combine with Projectile weapons, 7 of them, and you have quite an effective ship. Not counting recharge, the Armaggedon will be able to re-boost over 25,000 shield. And with Projectile weapons it will be able to fire while doing so.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.02 22:47:00 -
[79]
Quote:
That a shield tank arma/apoc has to be tested before we can decide if it's really uber. As said, such a "tank" would only have a pop gun, it wouldn't deal much damage.
Yea, but the thing is: Shield hardeners were nerfed because of Scorp tanks. And a scorp with 4 neutron cannons, 2 missile launchers and 4 hybrid damage mod, probably deals less damage than an arma will do past patch fitted with 7 projectile turrets without damage mods.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.02 23:00:00 -
[80]
I'm not particularly happy with the shield hardeners getting cut to 40%. But come on people.
It's obvious the Scorpion is an EW Battleship. Same way the Blackbird is an EW Cruiser. Yall act like the Scorpion is the only ship that's going to get hurt by the change. The Blackbird isn't a frontline Cruiser. Quit pretending the Scorpion should be at almost half the cost of the real frontline Battleships.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 23:20:00 -
[81]
Quote:
Combine with Projectile weapons, 7 of them, and you have quite an effective ship. Not counting recharge, the Armaggedon will be able to re-boost over 25,000 shield. And with Projectile weapons it will be able to fire while doing so.
We'll have to test that one. A aram has 4200 shields with lvl4 shield management - which it will need for the amplies - so we could assume a total theoretical shield of 29.2k.
A normal arma can boost 6000 shield using a booster without amplies, so it has basically a 10200 shield, That gives the ampli arma 2.8 more shield than a normal apoc. If we outfit a normal apoc with damage mods it deals 5.46 more damage/time than the ampli apoc.
free speech not allowed here |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.09.02 23:28:00 -
[82]
Something tells me the shieldboosting Armaggedon will be able to take out the damage-modded Armaggedon first, but yes, it has to be tested.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.09.02 23:33:00 -
[83]
"Well, it could use 2 10% cap rechargers in it's remaining med slots - since it'S low slots are all taken - but that won't help much."
... It could use those med slots for cap boosters as well. Which would allow to recharge pretty much enough to operate the shield booster(s) whenever neccessary...
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Jorlin
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Posted - 2003.09.03 00:11:00 -
[84]
slightly offtopic...but
when:
- caldari ships get more defined as EW ships and shield tanks
- amarr ships are now the damagedealers or armortanks
- gallente are...hmm...don't know. dronecarriers maybe?
what are minmatar ships meant to be?
ok, let me guess: the easy to replace, fast hit-and-run vessels.
problem is, they are not THAT much cheaper than other races ships...and the current speedadvantage is neglegtible. give us a REAL speedboost...something to use it as a real advantage if properly handeled.
sure, even an Amarr ship should be able to keep pace..if the owner sacrifices every lowslot for overdrives. as i have to stuff all of my slots with armorupgrades to get almost close to his armor.
and even then...with the modified tracking speed on chaos, speed will get less important in fight.
i really don't want to fly other races ships, they are so....shiny.
it's just...when flying in a large, mixed battle group (which i never did and maybe never will) i want a role to fullfill. other than "first in range, first to die"
no police, no summons, no courts of law;
no proper procedure, no rules of war;
no mitigating circumstance;
no lawyers fees, no second chance! |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 00:25:00 -
[85]
Gallente and minmatar ships are both hybris between cladari and amarr ships, as mentioned previously somewhere in this forum. Gallente have a drone bonus, while minmatar have the speed bonus. Granted, the speed bonus isn't really as much, but the drone bonus isn't either.
And both boni can make the difference between victory or loss in certain situations. A BB jamming a gallente BS, but is getting destroyed by it's drones or a minmatar ship, which is able to keep it's distance to another ship with a lower range (but turrets with a higher damage) due to it's speed bonus.
free speech not allowed here |
Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 01:23:00 -
[86]
Ana on drones and speed i feel niether of them really create a large advantage (at BS lvl). Easy way to fix this, introduce new drones (350 m3) that are called something like "assault drones". And for minmatar cheaper ships, and increased speed by like 30 ms, maybee even more.
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Rath Amon
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Posted - 2003.09.03 01:35:00 -
[87]
One concern I have about switching mindsets from 'defense = shields' to 'defense = armor' is that damage bleeds through armor to structure. At this point it doesn't seem to matter if systems get damaged but I still think that a new skill similar to Tactical Shield Manipulation needs to be introduced for armor. Something to reduce armor penetration because even if you repair armor and structure damage you'll still be flying around with system damage.
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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.03 01:39:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Arathmon on 03/09/2003 22:04:48
Edited by: Arathmon on 03/09/2003 01:42:10
Tom B, why not instead of nerfing modules make them only stackable to a certain degree? For example: only two of the same type of hardener stack, and after that you're just wasting cap. Also, I certainly hope that shield boost amplifiers do not stack because of the obvious problems this would cause.
Anyway... back to only having a certain number of modules stack, you could also have it vary from ship to ship. Say that cruisers can only stack 4 stabilizers/heatsinks, while battleships can stack 6. The reason for this is the recent ghastly 'balancing' happening to lasers, which completely shaft the fitting requirements (4500 grid for a tachyon is NOT balance).
Edit: changed '****ting' to 'fitting'. bit of a freudian slip there.
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I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
Brukhai Khan
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Posted - 2003.09.03 01:58:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Brukhai Khan on 03/09/2003 01:58:22
late again, this on the original post by TomB:
Quote:
Shield Boosters:
Shield Hardeners:
- All single boosting Shield Hardeners have been decreased from 70% resistance to 40% resistance. This was done because of some ships being able to be immune to all damage types
I agree that the problem of invulnerable ships needs to be addressed, but this is a measure that imo has too wide-reaching repercussions. With a reduction like that weŚre going to see a major decrease in combat duration, when over the last few patches it was finally managed to get *away* from the ten-second shootouts. As a result of this I think that eventually all guns will have to be rebalanced to keep combat time at its current level.
A much less intrusive way would be to allow multiple hardeners at full strength, but to reduce the individual resistance gain with each successive shield hardener that is installed. A ten to fifteen percent decrease in effectiveness for each additional hardener that is installed would give people the option of defending against two or three damage types moderately well, or choosing one damage type for the full resistance bonus.
So one hardener would provide the full 70%, two would give 55% to each damage type, and three would boost only 40%, making three the limiting number of effective shield hardeners you could use.
That way you could still get fairly good protection from half the damage types, but no more invulnerability to all.
Invulnerability shields would by this measure get their justification back as they provide allround protection. I am not sure how these stack atm, their stacking mechanics would have to level off to a fixed value (i.e. 25% to all for the first, +12% for the second, +7% for the third, etc.) about equal to an equal number of different hardeners used.
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.09.03 02:16:00 -
[90]
Perhaps now is a good time to take a long and detailed look into module stacking.
Outside of ECM/ECCM (not other jammers), removing/reducing/limiting stacking might be beneficial to overall balance...
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Deception + Information + Skill |
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