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Stryker Zee
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Posted - 2003.09.02 12:16:00 -
[31]
Lowering the single hardners to 40% is a bad idea, as was lowering the Invulnerabitity Shield to 25%. We are taking a step backwards with this move. Remember when the masses complained that battles were over in 10 seconds? The low-slot damage mods were reduced in effectiveness to prolong battles and make them more challenging.
Now you are reducing the shield hardner's ability to diminish damage by too great a factor. Our battles will go back to being simple engagements of who fires first. Where's the fun in that?
If you want to make a wise change, then make it so only one of each type of hardner can be fitted to a ship at a time. You can have one EM hardner and one thermal hardner, but not two of each.
Remember, these devices are power hogs, and eventually they will drain the opponent's cap down to where you can pummel their ship at will. Reduce individual shield hardners to 40% and you might as well go ahead and rebalance the gyros/magnetic stabilizers/heat sinks downward while you're at it.
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.09.02 12:22:00 -
[32]
Medium slots will make a shield tank (IE: Caldari)
Low slots will make an armor tank (IE: Amarr)
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Deception + Information + Skill |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 12:25:00 -
[33]
"these devices are power hogs"
Are you kidding? Tthe multispec - sure, but the normal ones?? They have the same cap/s as a SMALL laser. YOu can run 2 for infinite time on a cruiser, non-projectile weapon fire needs a lot lot more cap.
free speech not allowed here |
ROFL
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Posted - 2003.09.02 12:28:00 -
[34]
 Quote:
Also: Lasers cost much more powergrid than before so if a player wants to fit his ship with 4-5 Tachyons for example, he will have to fill his low slots with modules for extra powergrid. Amarr ships are suposed to be able to deal out alot of damage or be complete tanks, but they won't be able to do both very well.
If you go overboard with this, people wont use lasers at all. The scorpion is currently twice the tank the Apoc is (which is pretty ridiculous) and I think you you make it so that we cant fit 4 tachyons with at least 4 damage mods, people will just train hybrid or projectiles, guns they CAN for 4/5 of and CAN use the damage mods associated with them. What I'm saying here is trading our capacitor to use the weapons is a penalty, and if you make us trade our damage mods as well to use the same amount of weapons as everyone else, then that penalty will be too much.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.09.02 12:48:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Lowering the single hardners to 40% is a bad idea, as was lowering the Invulnerabitity Shield to 25%. We are taking a step backwards with this move. Remember when the masses complained that battles were over in 10 seconds? The low-slot damage mods were reduced in effectiveness to prolong battles and make them more challenging.
I think it's fine and I am the owner of a Scorpion, using these hardeneres. A fight between 2 Battleships having their medium slots full of hardeners can last for 10+ minutes. That's a bit over the top considering how easy it is to run in this game. 10 minutes is more than enough time to get to the gate even though you are webified x2, even x3. Or you can just log and your ship will dissapear before shields are down 10%.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.02 13:00:00 -
[36]
The only change I really have a problem with is making the shield booster thing a low slot module. Many Caldari ships have an exceedingly low # of lo slots. This is bad, since they have to rely on shielding. Amarrian ships, however, are supposed to rely on their armor, but they are the ones who get the shield booster enhancers.
It seems now, you may as well go for the ship with the biggest # of hi and low slots, since medium slots are so much less valuable now.
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ROFL
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Posted - 2003.09.02 13:15:00 -
[37]
Quote:
Or you can just log and your ship will dissapear before shields are down 10%.
Ah, the growing survival mentality of everyone in Eve.
TomB, this logging out crap needs to be fixed too please.
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Amorex
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Posted - 2003.09.02 13:49:00 -
[38]
Nice move TomB, you made a tomb for a Scorp.
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.09.02 13:57:00 -
[39]
Tachyon change is very bad imho, since the current tachyons arent worth to lose alot of powergrid.
I hate nerf's overall, but experience told me company's dont listen anyway.
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http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:01:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Nice move TomB, you made a tomb for a Scorp.
Quote:
The first Scorpion-class battleship was launched only a couple of years ago, and those that have been built are considered to be prototypes. Little is known of its capabilities, but what has been garnered suggests that the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match.
A scorpion is a high-tech electronic warfare machine. It is not intended as a ning-invulnerable tank. Keep it in a support role, and use the Raven class battleship as your damage dealer.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:10:00 -
[41]
Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 02/09/2003 14:11:39
Quote:
A scorpion is a high-tech electronic warfare machine. It is not intended as a ning-invulnerable tank. Keep it in a support role, etc..
True, but it still isnt the supported role i expected how it should be. Imho sensor linking is still to weak while this change could make a scorpion a teamplayer instead of a tank.
Even after the current change a scorpion can use EW to take out a apocalypse without the apoc beeing able to even target. So it still is and still will be a solo player ship in PvP, that will be feared by many..
By making sensor linking more important, so that the damage dealers are less a victim in teamfights, we could add a way of fighting in EvE on how we are supposed to fight. In teamplay.
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http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Amorex
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:14:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Quote:
Nice move TomB, you made a tomb for a Scorp.
Quote:
The first Scorpion-class battleship was launched only a couple of years ago, and those that have been built are considered to be prototypes. Little is known of its capabilities, but what has been garnered suggests that the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match.
A scorpion is a high-tech electronic warfare machine. It is not intended as a ning-invulnerable tank. Keep it in a support role, and use the Raven class battleship as your damage dealer.
Max defence min. firepower that is his role. If you are lowering his defence capibility then rise his firepower. Otherwise Scorp will become usless junk.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:26:00 -
[43]
Scorpion could be the most powerful battleship if it was fitted that way, which it was not designed for. This battleship is designed for hi-tech operations such as electronic warfare. It still has 4 launchers and launchers are good at dealing damage now, check how they are working on Chaos (Missiles will also get decreased in price). But yes, if you want to be able to deal out the most damage in a Caldari battleship, you should rather fly a Raven which has more low slots, more hi-slots, more launchers, more powergrid and more capacitor.
"Where is my hat?" |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:27:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Scorpion could be the most powerful battleship if it was fitted that way, which it was not designed for. This battleship is designed for hi-tech operations such as electronic warfare. It still has 4 launchers and launchers are good at dealing damage now, check how they are working on Chaos (Missiles will also get decreased in price). But yes, if you want to be able to deal out the most damage in a Caldari battleship, you should rather fly a Raven which has more low slots, more hi-slots, more launchers, more powergrid and more capacitor.
You still havent answered me when you going to fix the defenders, since they all circle around the launcher ship and blow up there instead of defending.
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http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:33:00 -
[45]
btw make armor boosters used in warp too
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http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Amorex
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:34:00 -
[46]
Sorry TomB but this is not aswer. How I supposed to be a bounty hunter when all wanted pirates and persons are hading around in packs? with 70% a can roam there pack, tak my pray kill it not fast but fast enoth to stay alive and leave. If you made this game teamplay ONLY, then write it down on boxes. Otherwise stop killing single play in Eve.
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:49:00 -
[47]
Quote:
Quote:
Nice move TomB, you made a tomb for a Scorp.
Quote:
The first Scorpion-class battleship was launched only a couple of years ago, and those that have been built are considered to be prototypes. Little is known of its capabilities, but what has been garnered suggests that the Scorpion is crammed to the brink with sophisticated hi-tech equipment that few can match.
A scorpion is a high-tech electronic warfare machine. It is not intended as a ning-invulnerable tank. Keep it in a support role, and use the Raven class battleship as your damage dealer.
WTF Since WHEN does "hi-tech equipment" mean the same as "high-tech electronic warfare"
In my opinion a shield hardener, in opposite to an armor exteneder, surely is a "hi-tech equipment".
Though I'm not mad about the change. I can still make a Scorpion tank if I want to.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
TomB
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:50:00 -
[48]
Defenders are being looked at - Armor Repair Unit has been added to "modules allowed in warp" group (Chaos updated with it later).
The scorpion is not a useless ship, the hardeners got nerfed and not the scorpion. You can still make the scorpion almost immune to various attacks but not as much before. But you now have more possibilites to survive in combat.
"Where is my hat?" |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.02 14:56:00 -
[49]
And Tomb, please let us know when I'm gonna start dealing 360 damage and not 300 damage with my cruise missiles.
Ie, when the cruise missile skill will be fixed...
(I've not tested them after the 88 build though)
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 15:26:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 15:30:44
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 15:29:54
Cannot really see the problem with the scorp - 3 sensor dampeners and you can kill a enemy BS without it even firing one shot at you.
equip 6 and you'll disable two targets and still have room for a MWD and a SB.
And even with the 70% shieldhardeners a gallente or amarr BS with a single array of SH could outdamage a scorp with a double SH array. If you enganage a damage maxed BS with your scorp at tranq you'll loose.
free speech not allowed here |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.02 15:37:00 -
[51]
"Cannot really see the problem with the scorp - 3 sensor dampeners and you can kill a enemy BS without it even firing one shot at you."
Many, many, many people run around with sensor boosters nowadays. Particularly battleships with their slow lock times.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 15:39:00 -
[52]
True. Because of that I have fitted 4 dampeners on my scorp 
Only against a single target, though.
free speech not allowed here |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.02 16:11:00 -
[53]
It's not like sensor boosters would help very much anyway. Even the insane targeting range 300km suddenly becomes 18.75km with 4 (0.5x) dampeners.
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Iridina
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Posted - 2003.09.02 16:13:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Iridina on 02/09/2003 16:13:34
Quote:
"Under half the resistance"? 70% vs 40% - thats 57% of the old ones.
It's trivial to see that simple comparation of resisted damage by division doesn't really do justice here, if we have a shield resistance booster of 100% and other of 50%, the 100% booster isn't two times better than 50%, it's infinitely better, and the shield two times as good as a shield with 60% resistance would be a shield with 120% of resistance, which is absurd.
Basically the correct way to compare the effectiveness of items like these is to figure out the answer to the question "How many item A's do I need to have the effectiveness of item
B?"
So here it's a matter of figuring out how many 40% hardeners you need to get the resistance of a 70% hardener.
And this we acquire by observing how much damage goes through with one 70% shield, and that's 0.3 dmg, and then how many dmg goes through with x 40% shields, and that's 0.6^x.
And these two would have to be equal, for the setups to be as effective, ie. if they're equal, the both setups let as much damage go past.
So we have 0.6^x = 0.3.
Answer to this equation is x ~ 2.35, you can verify this by checking 0.6^2.35 = 0.301...
So the initial statement is correct, you need around 2.35 40% resistance shields to be as effective as one 70% resistance shield, thus meaning that the effectiveness was more than halved.
Actually the same calculation applied for multispectrals and regular resistance boosters, you needed 2.35 multispectrals to come in par with one regular hardener in one resistance type, or, to come in par with two hardeners in two resistance types.
After the change to 25% multispectrals and 40% hardeners, it takes only 1.77 multispectrals to reach the effect of one regular hardener, which especially keeping in mind the greatly higher capacitor cost on multispectrals sounds quite balanced. You can always get better resistance against two damagetypes with two multispectrals, but at a great cost to capacitor.
PS. the maths to 0.6^x = 0.3 is simple logarithms:
0.6^x = 0.3, take natural logarithm on both sides
ln(0.6^x) = ln(0.3), div both sides by ln(0.6)
ln(0.6^x)/ln(0.6) = ln(0.3)/ln(0.6), use log_a(x)/log_a(b) = log_b(x)
log_0.6(0.6^x) = ln(0.3)/ln(0.6)
x = 2.35..
--Irid |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.02 16:27:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 02/09/2003 16:27:38
True, I made an error here. I looked at the resitances, not at the damage going through.
free speech not allowed here |
Iridina
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Posted - 2003.09.02 16:32:00 -
[56]
Greet the armor damage with joy, for you can repair it, and fly at 20km/s without thy ableness being lost, and ditch thy energy weapons for they are not the chosen ones.
Namely.
The biggest plus on shield hardening was that you could effectively increase your shield hitpoints, thus having as much shield as possible was a good thing.
Now with the boosts to shield boosters and armor repairers, having much shield isn't that big of an issue anymore, as more weight is placed on regeneration speed. And this means the MWD penalty of -50% shields doesn't hurt as bad as it used to.
Basically, equipping two MWD's, a shield booster and armor repairer makes you invulnerable in other sense, you can fly to 100km and repair yourself there and come back ;)
Of course this is not as bad balance-wise as the hitpoint tanks boosts with the hardeners, and will sure make the fights more interesting, but this will also in effect penalize long range weapon users some.
With the increased armor repairer speed, it means that armor hardeners also become a semi-viable option. The low-slot specialized armor hardener gives 30% to one resistance, almost as much as the shield booster gives to shields. The resist-all version sucks tho, 13% to all isn't that much.
We'll probably begin seeing armor used a lot like shields were used, thus having energy weapon users 'penalized' even more, due to inherent armor resistance against those damagetypes, and projectile users getting a boost due to explosive damage from their ammo.
Swing, swing, swing the scale..
--Irid |
Iminay
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Posted - 2003.09.02 17:27:00 -
[57]
TomB
didnt you say you werent out to nerf things, just to boost the weaker components?
Seems your fooling around here. You hate laser users?
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2003.09.02 17:34:00 -
[58]
Amorex am I getting this straight that your complaining that after these changes the scorpion will no longer be able to go against a group of enemy battleships, pick one, kill it and leave again without much risk ?
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Replicant Amara
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Posted - 2003.09.02 17:42:00 -
[59]
I haven't read all the comments... but I have seen a skill that is called Shield piercing, and I think I saw somewhere a module called shield hardener disrupture...
Leave the hardeners alone and introduce these modules and skills...
That is all I have to say...
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Adis
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Posted - 2003.09.02 18:12:00 -
[60]
I think the Resistance should stay at 70% but only being able to activate 1 hardener at a time. As was mentioned before this disallows the overuse of shield hardeners but at the same time it gimps the other (lvl2) battleships defense.
Instinct is something you never learnàyou have to be born with it.
--Adis |
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