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Tier 3 as most people want them; Faction ships for everyone

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Gierling	Posted - 2006.02.17 08:01:00 - [1] Just floating the idea that the stats being thrown around by a lot of folks, including the preliminary numbers completely outpace faction ships. Can we please reign in expectations a bit and remember that Ovuer said they would not tank or gank any better then existing ships. As it is with the existing stats the Minmater tier 3 easily outpaces a fleet tempest and might just beat the macharial with the right bonii. PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.02.17 08:40:00 - [2] We are very much aware of that tier 3 battleships can not outpimp the faction battleships. _______________

Necrologic	Posted - 2006.02.17 08:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Tuxford We are very much aware of that tier 3 battleships can not outpimp the faction battleships. Tux, is it set in stone that they are going to be tier 3, or are you considering making a second tier 1 or 2 instead?
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.02.17 08:52:00 - [4] For the sake of consistency, I hope not. We need more ships with bigger HP. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Necrologic	Posted - 2006.02.17 09:32:00 - [5] Originally by: DigitalCommunist For the sake of consistency, I hope not. We need more ships with bigger HP. Good point.
Shadowsword	Posted - 2006.02.17 09:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Gierling Just floating the idea that the stats being thrown around by a lot of folks, including the preliminary numbers completely outpace faction ships. The preliminary stats included in the database, while probably not definitives, show en equal number of slots than faction BS, less armor/shield/hp, a lower speed, and for some of them a much bigger mass, slower lock time, unknown bonuses, and, if I remember correctly, faction ships get 3 bonuses instead or two. The stats proposed by players are completely irrelevant. I'm curious. How can you consider faction ships outclassed?
Jhanne	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:03:00 - [7] I think it would be nice with another T1 Battleship, we have enought ships HP ships (Dread (special in sige mode), Carrier, Mothership and Titan).
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:10:00 - [8] Edited by: Gronsak on 17/02/2006 10:10:17 Originally by: Tuxford We are very much aware of that tier 3 battleships can not outpimp the faction battleships. could just boost the faction ships. and since they are uncommon/rare it wount really matter much -------------------Sig----------------------- Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON
Nadec Ascand	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:14:00 - [9] RP talking i would rather say than Tier 3 battle ship should be almost same as faction ship as time come ppl are researching about faction ship and here come the new Tier3 ship it should be close really close to faction ship (something like lets say same but 2 bonus when faction ship got 3 or a bit less cpu or pg but still they need to be close) they should also ask for BS 4, 3 sounds a bit low. OMG our war have been hijack -eris What 0_o LMAO Nadec 4TW - Vanamonde Here start a new WAR => X - Wrangler
Mable	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:29:00 - [10] Unfortunately only the pirate faction ships have 3 bonus', the navy ships have only 2.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:34:00 - [11] Insted of Tier 3 battleships there should rather be a second Tier 1 battleship for all the races. That way you can also have ships that aren't the pinnacle of that races combat philosophy without making something that really isn't what that race is about the best it has to offer.
Nadec Ascand	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Noriath Insted of Tier 3 battleships there should rather be a second Tier 1 battleship for all the races. That way you can also have ships that aren't the pinnacle of that races combat philosophy without making something that really isn't what that race is about the best it has to offer. /jk ?? no 2nd Tier 1 battleship for caldari so? as scorp is 1 one nor the best one Tier 1 ship around (well arma maybe too :p ) OMG our war have been hijack -eris What 0_o LMAO Nadec 4TW - Vanamonde Here start a new WAR => X - Wrangler
hired goon	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:52:00 - [13] Originally by: Gierling As it is with the existing stats the Minmater tier 3 easily outpaces a fleet tempest and might just beat the macharial with the right bonii. Where did you see stats for the Teir 3 bs? -omg-
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Necrologic Originally by: Tuxford We are very much aware of that tier 3 battleships can not outpimp the faction battleships. Tux, is it set in stone that they are going to be tier 3, or are you considering making a second tier 1 or 2 instead? please, tell me sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Exelsior	Posted - 2006.02.17 10:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: Noriath Insted of Tier 3 battleships there should rather be a second Tier 1 battleship for all the races. That way you can also have ships that aren't the pinnacle of that races combat philosophy without making something that really isn't what that race is about the best it has to offer. /jk ?? no 2nd Tier 1 battleship for caldari so? as scorp is 1 one nor the best one Tier 1 ship around (well arma maybe too :p ) Say what? Oh and hired goon, Database ------------------------- Thou shalt be dispatched. Skill Point Transfer
Somatic Neuron	Posted - 2006.02.17 14:57:00 - [16] Tier 3 should be better than Tier 2, just as Tier 3 Cruisers and Frigates are better than their Tier 2 counterparts. It should be by the same relative scale, as well...otherwise, why bother? If that makes them close to the faction battleships, so what? If it is that big of a deal, make the faction battleships have better or more bonuses. ----------
Jaketh Ivanes	Posted - 2006.02.17 15:45:00 - [17] I'm for that 2nd tier 1 BS. Don't really need a better BS than the tier 2's. DigitalCommunist got a point, but rather than boosting HP, lets lower RoF. Effectivly increse ships hitpoints and reduce server strain.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.02.17 16:19:00 - [18] Edited by: j0sephine on 17/02/2006 16:20:35 "We are very much aware of that tier 3 battleships can not outpimp the faction battleships." Considering the faction ships are based on lower (2nd) tier, isn't that like saying Thorax should be unable to outpimp the Guardian Vexor..? (not faction ship, granted, but rare enough to count as one) Could very well have tier.3 battleships at least meet the level of current faction ships and (eventually) introduce new set of faction ship based on these tier.3's, while --optionally-- making tier.2 factions more available...
Lygos	Posted - 2006.02.17 16:32:00 - [19] Just so long as they have to compromise in order to fight certain classes. If a tier III BS, when not jammed, can beat just about any tier II BS, it should have a much harder time with inties and AFs than a tier I or II BS. 200m3 drone bays make beer go flat. Eunoia: The persistent suspicion that the universe is secretly conspiring to quietly improve one's life.
Rafein	Posted - 2006.02.17 16:32:00 - [20] We really do need a tier 3 BS, just to keep with natural progression. And it shoud have a bit more HP, armor, grid, CPU,, but not a lot. You figure, the rces are always coming up with new ships to overpower the old. Why make a new, underpowered ship
Shadowsword	Posted - 2006.02.17 18:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Noriath Insted of Tier 3 battleships there should rather be a second Tier 1 battleship for all the races. That way you can also have ships that aren't the pinnacle of that races combat philosophy without making something that really isn't what that race is about the best it has to offer. 1/ A second tier 1 would only be usefull if it did something new, and NOT too much specialised (specialisation if what T2 is for), and I can't think of any usefull role that a current BS can't already do. 2/ BS are mainly used for fleet battles, small-gang fire support and NPCing, and most of the players who do that (which mean a fairly big portion of the playerbase) want new ships to play with, but they won't use something that can't npc hunt, or do missions, or pound an enemy fleet, as well than current designs. A second Tier1 BS might be usefull, if their design was really bringing something fresh, but the need for them is a lot slower than for new brawlers boats...
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.17 18:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: Noriath Insted of Tier 3 battleships there should rather be a second Tier 1 battleship for all the races. That way you can also have ships that aren't the pinnacle of that races combat philosophy without making something that really isn't what that race is about the best it has to offer. /jk ?? no 2nd Tier 1 battleship for caldari so? as scorp is 1 one nor the best one Tier 1 ship around (well arma maybe too :p ) i don't get it sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Nadec Ascand	Posted - 2006.02.17 18:32:00 - [23] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: Noriath Insted of Tier 3 battleships there should rather be a second Tier 1 battleship for all the races. That way you can also have ships that aren't the pinnacle of that races combat philosophy without making something that really isn't what that race is about the best it has to offer. /jk ?? no 2nd Tier 1 battleship for caldari so? as scorp is 1 one nor the best one Tier 1 ship around (well arma maybe too :p ) i don't get it /joke So there would not be any 2nd tier 2 bs for caldary as scorp is ubber maybe the best T1 bs with the arma OMG our war have been hijack -eris What 0_o LMAO Nadec 4TW - Vanamonde Here start a new WAR => X - Wrangler
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2006.02.17 19:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: Noriath Insted of Tier 3 battleships there should rather be a second Tier 1 battleship for all the races. That way you can also have ships that aren't the pinnacle of that races combat philosophy without making something that really isn't what that race is about the best it has to offer. /jk ?? no 2nd Tier 1 battleship for caldari so? as scorp is 1 one nor the best one Tier 1 ship around (well arma maybe too :p ) i don't get it /joke So there would not be any 2nd tier 2 bs for caldary as scorp is ubber maybe the best T1 bs with the arma i dont get it King Liu is RIGHT!!
Gierling	Posted - 2006.02.17 20:30:00 - [25] I'll post some stats when I get home from work. Stay tuned. PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.17 20:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Liu Kaskakka Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Nadec Ascand Originally by: Noriath Insted of Tier 3 battleships there should rather be a second Tier 1 battleship for all the races. That way you can also have ships that aren't the pinnacle of that races combat philosophy without making something that really isn't what that race is about the best it has to offer. /jk ?? no 2nd Tier 1 battleship for caldari so? as scorp is 1 one nor the best one Tier 1 ship around (well arma maybe too :p ) i don't get it /joke So there would not be any 2nd tier 2 bs for caldary as scorp is ubber maybe the best T1 bs with the arma i dont get it me neither sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Gierling	Posted - 2006.02.18 06:07:00 - [27] Edited by: Gierling on 18/02/2006 06:10:30 First assumption: These ships will be primarily oriented towards fleetcombat, so if they are head and shoulders better at fleet combat then thier contemperaries it doesn't make them obselete. First Refutation: The majority of Battleship combat is in fleets, more then any other ship in Eve thier "time and place" is narrowly defined due to thier bulk and expense. So, we can look at fleet combat as the primary circumstance to balance these ships in. Lets look at the proposed Gallente ship, Since we do not know what the bonuses are lets go on the assumption that they follow the trends exactly. Immedietly we see that it has about 3 thousand more hitpoints, it also has about 30% more signature radius so I am not terribly concerned about imbalance there. Then we see that it has a 8-5-7 slot layout, the same layout as a Vindicator and same total as a Navy Megathron. However it has an additional turret hardpoint, so it may totally outclass both these ships in the fleet arena. If it has a tracking and a damage bonus (Which would be explicitly following existing gallente bonuses) it would quite simply be better then a Vindicator, and fully insurable. The MWD bonus doesnt come into play, and the Navy Mega only has the same bonuses but less turrets. Fitting doesn't seem like its any contest either. The bonii are crucial here, if they have the same or even similar bonuses as existing ships then they simply make them redundant even up to the faction ship level. You give it an MWD and a falloff bonus and its doing the Gallente racial philosophy but not the same way as existing ships. It'll hit further out and have an easier time closing but it won't do as much pure damage at the top and bottom end of the range spectrum as the regular mega and thus the faction megas as well. The caldari one looks like your taking the right route but 7 turrets and an optimal bonus is a little much. Turrets will do good damage at the low end of battleship fleet ranges, and will do significantly more at the high end. 7 turrets and the optimal bonus will make all the existing turret ships obselete in most all fleet combat. In this case extended range is a bonus that adds damage AND versatilty and as such you shouldn't get it with a hefty amount of guns. Minmater one just needs to come down to 7 turrets, it simply completely outclasses the Tempest with every concievable bonus if it has 8 turrets. The Amarr one should be easy to balance actually, but the problem here lies in making it distinct. ALL the amarr ships can fit 7 long range guns with little effort, howeverOne is the tanker, one is the ganker. I think the best alternative is to drop the Amarr one to 6 turrets overall with more midslots then you usually find on an amarr ship and a decent drone bay as well. Make it a versatile ship that can still actually do something (6 Tachyons is still fleetworthy). While your at it the Phoon can be balanced by making it have a fifth turret and 2500 more powergrid, it loses none of its appeal as a versatile ship but gains the ability to play the role as a long range fighter and can actually be a viable option compared to the tempest . It would simply be a matter of individual preference distinguishing the use of the two in fleet fights. One requires more effort but hits well and further, one is easier to use but doesnt have the range while posessing more damage a little closer in. The domi just needs 1750 more powergrid. Pretty much every BS can fit a full rack of thier best guns with perfect skills and one fitting mod. The Domi is no exception. IT still has less guns then a mega and one less gun bonus so it doesnt supplant the mega, but becomnes an option where oyu can do respectable damage AND do some anti support work. As it is you need one fitting module to fit 5 425's and it just doesnt do enough damage to the enemy fleet to justify bringing it out. Giving it more grid in no way takes away its versatility. PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
Gierling	Posted - 2006.02.18 06:10:00 - [28] ALso for you snarky guys who way "The Domi can't be good its old" its description explicitly says that it is not obselete, it may not put the hurt on as much as a newer ship but it still has a respectable capability. PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.02.18 07:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Tuxford We are very much aware of that tier 3 battleships can not outpimp the faction battleships. The problem you're going to face is you've gone and made the faction BSes using a tier 2 model. Other faction ships use the teir3. IMO, I'd expect a faction bantam or condor to be iffy when compared to a Merlin. Perhaps when tier 3 comes out, faction ships need to get changed, or more need to be made? Guristas Caracal with 50% missile velocity bonus please. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Shadowsword	Posted - 2006.02.18 09:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Gierling Edited by: Gierling on 18/02/2006 06:10:30 First assumption: These ships will be primarily oriented towards fleetcombat, so if they are head and shoulders better at fleet combat then thier contemperaries it doesn't make them obselete. First Refutation: The majority of Battleship combat is in fleets, more then any other ship in Eve thier "time and place" is narrowly defined due to thier bulk and expense. ... First, talking about balance when considering only fleet battles is wrong. There's a lot of actions that include 5-6 ships gangs, and battleships are widely used as fire-support in those gangs. Second, a railgun on a megathron and a mega beam on an Apoc (with BS skill at lv5 in both cases) do approximately the same DPS, the railgun has a better range, but less tracking, even with the megathron tracking bonus. Right now both those ships are fairly well balanced, yet the Apocalypse has 8 turrets. According to your logic, there's a huge balance issue there, yet I don't see much whining about it on the forums. A tier 3 gallente BS with 8 guns would do barely 14% more damage than a megathron (a lot less than 14%, in fact, because the megathron has a slt to put a missile launcher on it, or a nos, or whatever) Third: Fittings: So, the gallente tier3 BS has 50 more cpu. Nice, but when you factor in the additional mid slot (25 CPU used, on averge), and the CPU requirment of a T2 425mm rail (77 CPU)-> Surprise, it doesn't fit. If you want to stuff your ship with 8 T2 425mm rails, 2 senosr boosters, 2 tracking comps, and 2 mag stabs, you don't have enough left for 2 or 3 hardeners. Fourth: current battleships are usefulls now, and you claim they'll become useless, withtout any of their stats being changed? I don't buy it. It's like those who said that HACs were made useless by command ships. Well, command ships are out, and HACs prices are still going up... Fifth: Do you really think CCP would be crazy enough to create a 8-guns minmatar BS with both a damage and a Rof Bonus? CCP is trying to make fights laste longer, not to give pirates an ultimate gate camp toy.

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