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Death Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.02.20 01:41:00 -
[1]
I am about to get a HAC and was wondering which is better for pvp.
Usualy i would give both ago and find out for myself but I cant exactly afford 2 HACs at the mo. 
So what you people reckon, please add some pros and cons for each
Cheers
Death
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Matuk Grymwal
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Posted - 2006.02.20 01:47:00 -
[2]
General conventional wisdom is the Vaga is better at solo/small gangs due to its speed and hence its ability to get in and out quickly. The Muninn conversely is better for larger gangs where you can fit a rack of t2 720s and wtfpwn stuff that your buddies lock down with tacklers.
I'll leave further insights to those who have actually flown both ships (my Muninn is on back order :D)
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.02.20 03:06:00 -
[3]
Is the muninn a good gank, I'd like to get one, but how does it's firepower compare to say... a tempest or zealot?
----
I like pie.
Cake > Pie - Imaran
 Originally by: CCP Hammer
Boobies
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Ras Blumin
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Posted - 2006.02.20 12:28:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Matuk Grymwal
General conventional wisdom is the Vaga is better at solo/small gangs due to its speed and hence its ability to get in and out quickly. The Muninn conversely is better for larger gangs where you can fit a rack of t2 720s and wtfpwn stuff that your buddies lock down with tacklers.
I'll leave further insights to those who have actually flown both ships (my Muninn is on back order :D)
Sums it up pretty well imo.
A dirty job - Released 2006.01.02 |
NateX
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Posted - 2006.02.20 12:31:00 -
[5]
what is the damage of muninn compared to vegabond and zealot?
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.02.20 13:38:00 -
[6]
Originally by: NateX
what is the damage of muninn compared to vegabond and zealot?
Depends on how much ammo you bring LOL
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Goberth Ludwig
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Posted - 2006.02.20 14:43:00 -
[7]
meh minnie hacs arent really worth their money in big gangs imo
you can fit a rupture with t2 guns and nearly equal the damage of a muninn - and spend 15 mil instead of 150 
- Gob (also known as Admiral Goberius) |
Lexor SLice
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Posted - 2006.02.20 14:43:00 -
[8]
munnin does more damage than a vagabond, not question, but it is slower. i know with 220's on a muninn vs. 220's on a vag. i hit a fair bit harder with the muninnn. tank wise...i think my vagabond has a stronger tank, but dont take my word for it.
/me puts up his estamels modified sig invul field. cant touch this :-) |
Lexor SLice
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Posted - 2006.02.20 14:46:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
meh minnie hacs arent really worth their money in big gangs imo
you can fit a rupture with t2 guns and nearly equal the damage of a muninn - and spend 15 mil instead of 150
i'm pretty sure i pay more than 15mil for a full rack of t2 arties
7mil for a ruppie
3 mil for the other random mods
5mil per gun*4 guns= 20+7+3=30mil
/me puts up his estamels modified sig invul field. cant touch this :-) |
Omatje
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Posted - 2006.02.20 15:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lexor SLice
7mil for a ruppie
3 mil for the other random mods
5mil per gun*4 guns= 20+7+3=30mil
You pay way too much for your arties
You can find 720II's for under 1.5 mil pp easily.
sig? |
Potiphar
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Posted - 2006.02.20 15:49:00 -
[11]
I haven't tried the munin too much lately, but the cyclone seems to be much better in terms of cost vs effectiveness. A cyclone can fit a full rack of T2 720's with no grid mods, it hits hard, and it has enough mid slots to even throw on some EW.
I'd say vagabond for small gangs, and cyclone for fleet support. Sell your munin.
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Adril Alatar
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Posted - 2006.02.20 16:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Potiphar
I haven't tried the munin too much lately, but the cyclone seems to be much better in terms of cost vs effectiveness. A cyclone can fit a full rack of T2 720's with no grid mods, it hits hard, and it has enough mid slots to even throw on some EW.
I'd say vagabond for small gangs, and cyclone for fleet support. Sell your munin.
The cyclone has only 1 gun related bonus, the muninn has 4 ;-)
but the muninn has serious powergrid problems....
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Chode Rizoum
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Posted - 2006.02.20 16:22:00 -
[13]
a good autocanon Muninn.. is nasty...
but i like the vagabond for soloin myself aswell...
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darth solo
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Posted - 2006.02.20 16:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Foulis
Is the muninn a good gank, I'd like to get one, but how does it's firepower compare to say... a tempest or zealot?
i trained for a HAC , a muninn... i regreted it.. what a total waste of time that ship is.. give me a cyclone any day. it still had a major hole in resistance with kinetic, it couldnt fit a full rack of 720s even with my advanced weapons upgrades 5 skill..
i was glad to see the back of it,.and no, it does no where near the damage of a tempest.
d solo.
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Anjerrai Meloanis
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Posted - 2006.02.20 17:15:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Anjerrai Meloanis on 20/02/2006 17:15:50
i just wish minmatar ships like the muninn that are supposed to use artillery get 2 damage bonuses rather than a dmg bonus and rof.
artillery is mainly about alpha strike, rof means you get less dps due to having to reload so much.
and dont tell me its not supposed to, 10% optimal per level is fairly useless for autocannons.
uh.
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Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2006.02.20 17:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis
Edited by: Anjerrai Meloanis on 20/02/2006 17:15:50
i just wish minmatar ships like the muninn that are supposed to use artillery get 2 damage bonuses rather than a dmg bonus and rof.
artillery is mainly about alpha strike, rof means you get less dps due to having to reload so much.
and dont tell me its not supposed to, 10% optimal per level is fairly useless for autocannons.
I see the muninn as a clear autocannon ship in a fleet. No reason to even waste your time with 720 IIs when the cyclone can do the job so much better. Muninn's bonii are for ACs moreso than arties when you consider the inty/af world we live in. BTW... your sig looks like the new BSG star buck... nice.
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BlackDog Rackh'am
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Posted - 2006.02.20 18:01:00 -
[17]
The vagabond is very popular, simply because it can control the range of an engagement to its favor. Imho, along with the ishtar it's the best solo ship in the game.
I won't ramble on about it, people know it's good. I originally trained for a muninn but i mostly fly a vagabond nowadays. Nevertheless, a muninn is a powerful ship in the right hands, it just needs higher overall skills and better judgement, simply because it can't outrun silly odds and trouble in the same way as a vagabond.
For a start, the bonuses scream "fit me with artillery and let's gank people!", but powergrid is somehow low for that. You CAN do it, but don't expect fitting much of a tank along with that. It is however a good fleet support ship, used nicely against incoming hostile tacklers and cruisers. You can do a lot of damage if you get a fast locking setup,i have done higher damage than an armageddon in gatecamps with it and a guy from Contraband can wreck for more than 1k damage with a pure gank setup.
But what if you want to tank it and go short range? I think people rarely do it, because the vagabond seems more appealing for close range fights, due to speed. However, if a slow-a*s ishtar can PvP solo, then a muninn can do it as well. Just compensate for lower speed by fitting an increased tank. I was messing with the idea recently and came up with this on quickfit
5x220mm Vulcan II
2xmed nos II
AB
web
warp disruptor (20km range, 1 point)
med armor rep II
800mm plate II
explosive armor hardener
kinetic armor hardener
reactor control unit II
5 light drones
It needs good fitting skills, but it's definitely doable. The above setup fits with lvl5 in all of the fitting skills (eng/elect/wpn upg/adv wpn upg).In any case, tech2 ships benefit a lot from specialisation so don't be stingy with your training time
I think you can swap the AB for a MWD if you downgrade from 220s to dual 180 IIs.
It would be cool to take such a setup in the middle of a hostile frig fleet. Autocannons already track well, think of the bonus applied on top of that and with the rof and dmg bonus you can use your lows for a tank instead of gyro's, not to mention that a web and 2 nos will leave your target dead in the water.
Just watch them close in on you thinking you have artilleries fitted, then start popping them one after another 
Originally by: Black Lotus
I vote u for KIA spokesperson.
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.02.20 18:43:00 -
[18]
Personaly the Muninn would be my bet. The vagabond in my opinion is better all around ship but it's also more expensive. Muninn's sale a lot cheaper than the vagabond thus making it the ideal ship to focus on more. It doesn't suck by far and it can do a lot of great things. Focusing on a couple of great setups for the muninn would be great as well good for your pocket if you lose it.
Just my opinion though.
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Severa Crest
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Posted - 2006.02.20 18:46:00 -
[19]
In my opinion the Muninn is a good ship, the 720 arty setup is devastating when in a small gang as long as you dont get targeted because you have no tank. The tracking and optimal bonuses do make it a potent frig killer, not too sure about after rmr but before I have instapopped 2 inties with 2 vollies.
The autocannon muninn is also a good ship, people compare it to the Vagabond for speed, but the Muninn with a mwd is prob the second fastest HAC.
The Muninn is no Vagabond but it is definitely useful.
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Lexor SLice
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Posted - 2006.02.20 19:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: BlackDog Rackh'am
5x220mm Vulcan II
2xmed nos II
AB
web
warp disruptor (20km range, 1 point)
med armor rep II
800mm plate II
explosive armor hardener
kinetic armor hardener
reactor control unit II
5 light drones
I think you can swap the AB for a MWD if you downgrade from 220s to dual 180 IIs.
this setup is almost identical to my own...except i have no RCU fitted  i've been looking it over, and all thats different is i use rolled tungsten plates, not t2, and i use diminishing nos.
/me puts up his estamels modified sig invul field. cant touch this :-) |
BlackDog Rackh'am
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Posted - 2006.02.20 20:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lexor SLice
this setup is almost identical to my own...except i have no RCU fitted i've been looking it over, and all thats different is i use rolled tungsten plates, not t2, and i use diminishing nos.
Well, that's exactly where the need for the RCU comes from...i trained adv weapon upgrades lvl5 to fit tech2 items, because they are usually cheaper than the equivalent named module with the same stats
Then again, sometimes all the skills in the world are not enough to avoid the dreaded RCU in a setup.
Originally by: Black Lotus
I vote u for KIA spokesperson.
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2006.02.20 21:16:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Sky Hunter on 20/02/2006 21:19:04
Originally by: Lexor SLice
munnin does more damage than a vagabond, not question, but it is slower. i know with 220's on a muninn vs. 220's on a vag. i hit a fair bit harder with the muninnn. tank wise...i think my vagabond has a stronger tank, but dont take my word for it.
Vagabond and Muninn have same dmg if same guns fitted.
Notice that Vagabond gets 5% dmg bonus per HAC level, while Muninn get 5% dmg bonus per Minmatar Cruiser level.
So if you have HAC lvl 5, you get same dmg output assuming you have same guns on both.
EDIT:
A fully loaded Muninn with 720 IIs and maybe Quake/Tremor ammo, can be very powerfull. Its like caldari Eagle, but less range tradeoff for more damage.
IMO it can get tricky to fly both HACs, just depends on your preferences in combat.
-=-
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Shimpu
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Posted - 2006.02.20 21:56:00 -
[23]
Use the Minnum. The cerebus is also good 
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Dark Eulogy
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Posted - 2006.02.22 12:14:00 -
[24]
For PvP why not just use a Rupture with BlackDogs setup except using dual 180s? The damage difference is TINY for the cost.
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Fogy
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Posted - 2006.02.22 13:30:00 -
[25]
becaus the coolnes factor is much higher on a munin on a vaga, than on a rupture or a stabber...
same as t2 gunns is much cooler than std guns.. 
"From my rotting boddy flowers shall grow and I am in them, and that is eternity"
♥RUBRA♥
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Wizie
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Posted - 2006.02.22 16:48:00 -
[26]
The Munin is really a arti ship. I would hate to fly it with autocannons. If you have flown a Vagabond with autocannons you know why I am saying this.
Not just the speed difference, but slot options and MOST importantly the falloff bonus on the Vagabond. With traj analysis 5 and HAC 5, I get 23K+ range on 220 tech IIs with barrage ammo. The two hacs are lacking in all out dmg dealing though they are not terrible, they do get outclassed by ships like the Deimos, Zealot and Ishtar.
Where the AC vaga makes up for this is the ability to tackle while having a passive tank with shield extenders and orbitting well outside web range and dishing out dmg at that range. The Munin on the other hand can do the same, though at about half the range. Also the Munin needs to fit 2 hardners and a med rep to get a semi-decent tank (similar to that on a Rupture) against anything but Amarr.
With arti though, and using Quake ammo, you can get wreckings of 1550 on unhardened HP. And a DPS with EMP of about 350, which isn't terrible. Although I would like the Munin to get another DMG bonus in exchange for the rof bonus. With adv wep upgrades 4, I can barely fit a couple of rocket launchers on the Munin with an RCU and 5 720 IIs. Need an RCU to fit a couple of assault launchers. Those last 2 slots are essentially waste.
Heres the big problem, the Munin makes a great sniper, but will die within 2 volleys of a similarly fitted Tempest. So much for doing a niche job.
End result. Get a Vaga, and use a Tempest for what the Munin does.
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