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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
55
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Posted - 2013.11.21 17:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Seriously Bored wrote:
...
To put it short: you're staring at an insanely good monkey wrench and asking why it isn't that great at hammering in nails.
Agreed ac > arty. My problem with the new pve vargur is more like:
Your insanely good monkey wrench becomes less effective so that it can be better at hammering nails.
In general for 4s, mjd and bastion should be avoided when they can be, and the 'old' vargur fits are now less effective. The only time this monkey wrench is more effective compared to the old version is when it is hammering nails.
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
55
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Posted - 2013.11.21 19:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Seriously Bored wrote:chaosgrimm wrote:The only time this monkey wrench is more effective compared to the old version is when it is hammering nails. I couldn't disagree more. I shaved 10-15 minutes off my Dread Pirate Scarlet completion time by using MWD and Bastion compared to the week prior. That's a huge increase in effectiveness. Now... could I have used the same MWD tactic prior to Rubicon? I guess. I thought of it for the Mach, but not the Varg before Tuesday. But Bastion makes it easier, and frees up mid slots for more Tracking Computers by needing fewer tank modules. Not to mention that being E-war proof is a huge benefit in certain missions. (DPS in particular, if you get Pith Eliminator spawns.) I dunno. I just cannot sympathize with disappointment over the changes.
Agreed, depends on spawns in dread pirate scarlet. Ewar immunity makes heavy ewar missions great, no disagreement there. Also a mission like serpentis massive attack is significantly faster via mjd bonus. Most missions though they just arent worth taking.
Additional tank isnt needed. Projection through bastion doesn't make up for lack of mobility. 3rd TC via bastion doesn't make up for running a 4th optional high/may not make up for dmg lost during bastion activation. Ex: even if u could decrease average mission time by 5% via 3rd tc and bastion (which you cant, save ewar), on a 20 min mission you are only saving a minute... Compare 1 min saved vs running an extra salvager or tractor for the duration of the mission.
I did most of the figures in the rebalancing thread, at some point today I will make an effort to cobble the info together and make a new thread about vargur mission fitting, since the changes have made it to tq.
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
56
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Posted - 2013.11.22 11:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Ran some missions in the vargur yesterday and its absolutely amazing now, especially with the mobile tractor unit to help out.
I havent changed my rigs yet but I used to run 2 t2 ambits on it. atm it means I am hard capped at 72km falloff on my high damage ammo running 2 tracking comps with optimal scripts and bastion and 70km with 1. so I generally run one comp with tracking. I perma run a cheap pith ctype medium booster in case my connection ever drops with a single invul for tank. I usually have a mjd (quite usefull in a numbet of missions) and fit a mwd or ab with a overdrive in the low for other missions meaning I go FASTER than a pre rubicon vargur. thats right you bunch of sad sad little whiners, faster.
so yea atm there is not a singele valid reason to hate the vargur. it is better in every single way.
also it can solo c5 sites with t2 gear
Lawl, maybe I didn't read this correctly. Concerning missioms, are you saying:
Your original fit that made x modules / rigs worthless due to stacking penalties and is better when you replace the worthless stuff with something else; therefore, Rubicon vargur is better? |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
56
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Posted - 2013.11.23 10:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sigras wrote:
Kronos The Kronos does the same damage at basically the same range as the vargur except without damage selection . . . the only time its better is inside 17km . . . yeah sure it does ok, but you'd be hard pressed to show that this in any way makes the vargur obsolete.
Im not showing this at all. Assuming a 2 slot tank on both, each have access to the same number of mids and lows:
I am using this template for dmg for both in my comparison
faction wep upgrade x4
TE
faction TC x2
ambit I
burst II
in terms of raw dps:
null > RF phased til about 56.1km( about 65km with bastion)
hail > null til about 20km (about 21km with bastion)
navy antimatter > rf phased til about 28.6km ( about 30.8km with bastion)
navy antimatter > hail til about 27.4km (about 30km with bastion)
void > hail til about 20km (about 22.3km with bastion)
Outside bastion there is no ammo the vargur can use to outperform a kronos in raw dps out to 56.1km (65km with bastion).
Kronos can actually receive a benefit from the bastion modules optimal bonus with certain ammo and gets a better drone bay.
but hey the vargur gets better speed right?
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
56
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Posted - 2013.11.24 14:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
mama guru wrote:RF Phased owns Null at 36km or more
RF Phased outdamages Fed navy antimatter at 23km or more
Fits used in comparison needed. ill maintain that kronos ammo is better than vargur out to about 56.1km (or 65km in bastion) and that was before implants.....
mama guru wrote:
800mm AC's also outtrack null at any range
Outtracking an the benefit of out tracking are 2 different things. This is PvE we are talking about about, where the rats that otherwise might require tracking are usually approaching you. The further out a target is the less tracking you need, and you can switch ammo in 5 seconds or use mobility to reduce angular to make up for a tracking need.
mama guru wrote:
...and can swap to barrage for 60-100 km shooting.
Cant tell if trolling....
Barrage DPS is terrible. If a target is out 60-100km, just mjd in your kronos and you will have the upper hand. You are in a marauder after all.
mama guru wrote:
This is not even mentioning the selectible damage types.
Granted I'd like to be in a vargur over a kronos in minmatar or amarr space, but what most ppl dont take into consideration is that minmatar have terrible access to kinetic dmg. For example, RF phased is about 16.67% kinetic dmg and the remainder is thermal. As far as I know, there isnt a faction that is primarily weak against thermal, thermal is usually secondary. Between null, antimatter, and void, null has the lowest contribution to kinetic dmg.... at ~45.5%
factions weak against kin/therm:
Concord
EoM
Guristas
Mercenaries
Serpentis
Caldari
Gallente
So not only is your raw dps going to be higher... you're also doing better against the resists of roughly half the factions in the game
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
56
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Posted - 2013.11.25 13:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
mama guru wrote:Price has gone up like 10% in 3 days. Yeah it's the worst marauder ever.
Lawl, are you really trying to say in a non-comparative sense that an upward trend over the course of 3 days increasing the cost of an item by 10% within a week of a major expansion / change to said item is an indicator of the quality of any item?
With this logic, the price of the bastion module itself has dipped over 10% in the past 3 days..... so therefore it is bad?
There are several factors that go into the changes in prices of items on the market outside of the quality of the ship, such as material cost / scarcity, which can change based on the consumption of x material in the production of another ship that uses the same mat.
Other factors can include the population of producers able to build the ship, the market size of consumers, the alternatives available to those consumers, hype after an expansion, profitability per time of producing x ship instead of y ship, etc. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
56
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Posted - 2013.11.25 17:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
mama guru wrote:Layla Firoue wrote:mama guru wrote:RF Phased owns Null at 36km or more
RF Phased outdamages Fed navy antimatter at 23km or more
800mm AC's also outtrack null at any range and can swap to barrage for 60-100 km shooting. This is not even mentioning the selectible damage types.
The Kronos is second class to the vargur in most realistic scenarios unless you have specific needs for its damage profile. The Kronos is now unmatched at soloing serpentis anoms for example while the Vargur is superior as an all around platform. Assuming similar fittings ( 4xgyro/mag stab, burst aerator II, 1 TE 2 TC/ 3 TC ) your first statement is utterly false. Assuming similar fittings as stated above your second statement is false as well its more like 31km at which the Kronos swaps to NULL and out dps the Vargur again out to 60 km which is when the Vargur finally gets the advantage. Assuming a Blaster Kronos vs AC Vargur scenario. However the Vargur can play turret mode and with a quick swap to Barrage can even hose down targets up to 100km with good tracking and selectable damage types and ok dps, (being able to choose damage types offsets the perceived lack of paper dps quite a bit) something a blaster Kronos can not so I would not consider it rubbish at all, so at least your final statement is correct. The only out of whack Marauder is the Paladin which is over performing quite obviously both with Mega Pulse and especially with Tachys but this goes well in line with CCPs modus operandi to always make something FOTM with every change until it gets nerfed. Check the EFT DPS graph, and I was comparing my own fits which is 2TC / 3 Magstab for the Kronos and a Burst II, although that might be overtanked. Neutrons with Null at 50% Falloff: 19+20.5= 39.5km 800mm AC's with RF Phased at 50% falloff: 4.7 + 35.5= 41.2km, The RAW DPS difference is marginal but they both hit optimal +50% falloff at about 35-40km on average and after that the vargur has 35km falloff to go compared to the 20km of the kronos. At that point the Vargur WILL out DPS null. Period. For anything inside that range the kronos is superior in terms of raw dps though.
you're overtanked. you really only need a 2 slot shield or armor tank if you are using bastion. well, i guess technically 3 if you include bastion in the count
check:
3 faction mags/ gyros
1 mag II / gyro II
1 TE
2 faction TC w/optimal
burst II
ambit I
w/ bastion active: null > rf phased til around 65KM
bastion inactive: null > rf phased til around 56KM |
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