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EI Digin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1376
   |
Posted - 2013.11.23 17:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
If you ask any hardened veteran who was around a long time ago, they will tell you that big fights were generally Not Fun because of all the disconnects, black-screening, etc. Time Dilation did a lot to fix this and made big fights a lot more bearable.
The question is, even with this why is it that nearly all fights over timers these days cause node crashes, are slowed down to their maximum TiDi percentage and are generally not a good time? Why are we headed back to the old days of lag and unplayability?
Today's meta-game has shifted towards having the biggest bloc, as weaker blocs have died out. The majority of member corps of these blocs did not go and stake their own claim. They didn't reform into a new power bloc. They just simply joined one of the existing larger blocs, because straight up fights are what most people find fun, not backroom deals or dealing with logistics which are huge investments of effort that having your own bloc requires. This results in the three gigantic sov blocs we have now.
The problem with having these gigantic blocs is that suddenly instead of the 500 to 1000 man fleet fights which were huge back in the day and can easily be handled by TiDi, now every single fight over an objective is a 2000 man slugfest.
The secondary problem with this is that this gigantic fight can kick off pretty much anywhere where you can expect any one fleet to pass through. If your fleet takes gates, CCP would have to reinforce all systems en route to make sure one fleet of 250 can pass through without getting jumped and the fight escalating. All midpoints have to be reinforced. All staging systems have to be perma-reinforced. Any small objective turns into a big one, and suddenly every single timer system has to be reinforced, which can be a problem if a large number of timers are generated.
There's no way you would be able to reinforce all of these systems so that they can handle a gigantic fight. The players can't always deliver intel to you on time for downtime, and you shouldn't throw your hands up in the air and blame us for a broken system which promotes a metagame that causes heavy amounts of lag.
This has been a slowly escalating issue since 2011. TiDi was a good bandaid solution for CCP to buy time and allow them to improve upon nullsec and the sov system to make it less bloc-centric before we got here.
But again we see ourselves at the breaking point, where players are feeling the side effects of CCP failing to make any effective systematic change to a real issue, and even with the attempted fixes that have occurred there is no end in sight. Even the arguably greatest addition you have made, the introduction of TiDi, has become ineffective due to a system that is not working properly.
All of the effort put into quality-of-life changes is much appreciated, but at the end of the day these changes don't matter if you're stuck in slow motion for 3 hours longer than you wanted to play for. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
478
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Posted - 2013.11.23 17:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well reasoned. It may be a bitter pill to swallow, but I think there are things CCP could do to shake up the null metagame besides merely ship re-balancing. I'm kind of concerned that stargates will incentivize blocs more than ever.
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
6339
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Posted - 2013.11.23 17:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
I find it amusing when people describe fights before TiDi and it sounds exactly like my experience now.
EVE Online - A Rigged Game |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
2428
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Posted - 2013.11.23 17:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Finally a good post.
The problem is the way the players are playing the game, because that is what the game rewards most.
Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki
~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer
~ [I-RED] Director of Public Relations |
Steve Spooner
Mordu's Military Industrial Command
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
140
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Posted - 2013.11.23 18:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Assign drones--->watch Netflix. One of the many reasons that drone assist is so good and great is that it only takes the attention of a single person to concentrate an entire fleets drone power. Only one person has to pull the trigger so only he has to deal with tidi. The rest of the populace can alt tab, watch their shows, or deal with waifu agro. |
Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
343
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Posted - 2013.11.23 18:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Multithread it. I don't care how many expansions it takes; it has to be done. |
Azami Nevinyrall
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
1368
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Posted - 2013.11.23 18:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
TiDi is a great idea....if applied with back-end code fixes...
One day CCP will learn...the hard way...that they should've fixed the actual problem instead of applying a bandaid and hope things hold until the next one is applied...
Next bandaid....brain-in-the-box!!!
Support my (possibly dumb) Ideas!!
Worm Rebalance!!! |
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
25
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Posted - 2013.11.23 18:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
The reason why this is a problem is because 90% of the people are spineless clowns who would rather hide in numbers than actually have some backbone and self respect, they're grind bears. Don't blame EVE or CCP for the massive ****** coalitions. |
Kharamete
Feral Solutions Inc
79
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Posted - 2013.11.23 18:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pre-Tidi a big fight was 1200 people in local. Pre-tidi that crashed the node.
Current situation is 1500-4000 in local with extreme tidi plus possible node-crash.
It's always been thus. When CCP increase the capacity of a system, the player base crash the capacity with more people.
If in four years time CCP triples or quadruples the capacity, players will pile in five or six times as many.
---
CCP FoxFour:-á"... the what button... oh god I didn't even know that existed. BRB." |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
6340
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 18:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kharamete wrote:Pre-Tidi a big fight was 1200 people in local. Pre-tidi that crashed the node.
Current situation is 1500-4000 in local with extreme tidi plus possible node-crash.
It's always been thus. When CCP increase the capacity of a system, the player base crash the capacity with more people.
If in four years time CCP triples or quadruples the capacity, players will pile in five or six times as many.
You don't know what you're talking about.
But that's hardly surprising.
EVE Online - A Rigged Game |
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EI Digin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1380
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Posted - 2013.11.23 18:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Don't get me wrong.
I accept that there are engineering challenges getting thousands of players together playing the same game and interacting with eachother. I also accept that there should also be large battles that happen on occasion when something very important is on the line.
But when they become a regular occurrence someone needs to step back and figure out why it keeps happening and do something to make strategies that don't involve generating an insane amount of processing power more effective. |
Serptimis
Balls Deep Inc.
262
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Posted - 2013.11.23 18:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I find it amusing when people describe fights before TiDi and it sounds exactly like my experience now.
Modules not activating , lag, black screens and logging back in to find you've been podded. all the things TiDi was supposed to have 'solved'
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Finally a good post.
The problem is the way the players are playing the game, because that is what the game rewards most.
How do you design an MMO that doesn't facilitate players working together? |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
800
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 19:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kharamete wrote:Pre-Tidi a big fight was 1200 people in local. Pre-tidi that crashed the node.
Current situation is 1500-4000 in local with extreme tidi plus possible node-crash.
It's always been thus. When CCP increase the capacity of a system, the player base crash the capacity with more people.
If in four years time CCP triples or quadruples the capacity, players will pile in five or six times as many.
Been in 0.0 lately?
Try undocking 100 people at the same time, massive tidi, something that didn't used to be a problem. Run 100 man gang thru some gates to a fight and watch the tidi build with each jump.
CCP decided that Tidi was "good enough" and started working on the graphics. The problem with that is, shiny pictures require more time to generate. Jita used to handle 2700, they lowered it to 2k, same reason.
Tidi is also not the great balancer that CCP would have you believe either.
I had two alts in that Black legion Super welp, the one in a Dread could not cycle the siege module for the entire fight. My other character in a subcap ran slow, but all the modules actually cycled, at the expected time based on the tidi.
Tidi is a temporary fix, the problem is, at the pace CCP works, that could be years before they come up with something better.
In order to be involved with Sov warfare now, you must have no life, because any fight could turn into a 10 hour yawn fest
CCP, trading shiny pictures for playability since 2003..
EvE, a cutting edge game. The only game to provide Matrix style gameplay for the masses! (trouble is, most people don't have 9 hours to waste on a one hour fight.) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
6342
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 19:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
The ironic thing is, tidi actually gives alliances time to pile more people onto a fight before it's over.
EVE Online - A Rigged Game |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
8697
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 19:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Problem isn't tidi, Its the drone clouds.
Beehive domi were nerfed for this very reason all those years ago.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1506
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Remember back in 2010 when ccp grayscale said there were looking into fix null sec...
Yeah so its almost 4 years later... any updates?
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1506
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Problem isn't tidi, Its the drone clouds.
Beehive domi were nerfed for this very reason all those years ago.
Make it so you can only asign drones to a squad member. That should help
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
Winter Expansion new ship request |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
6344
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Drone assist is broken, but it's not the cause of the problem.
EVE Online - A Rigged Game |
MeBiatch
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1506
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Drone assist is broken, but it's not the cause of the problem.
Perhaps but 4000 drones cant help one would think.
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
Winter Expansion new ship request |
octahexx Charante
Corporate Scum
Northern Associates.
78
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 19:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
tidi havent solved anything.
unless you consider watchign ata stillframe frozen for 4hours better then a blackscreen.
If you actually consider that progress and fun i feel sorry for you. |
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1536
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Right now, I am in a high sec system, at least 4 jumps from low sec, let alone null.
And we have Tidi at 77%, (was 87% a moment ago) with 33 people in local.
Yeah, this TiDi thing is working great.
Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning.
The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Jythier Smith
WATERSHIP HOLDINGS
Harmonic Convergence
165
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Drone assist is broken, but it's not the cause of the problem. Perhaps but 4000 drones cant help one would think.
Unless they're 4000 programer drones. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
8697
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Posted - 2013.11.23 19:56:00 -
[23] - Quote
octahexx Charante wrote:tidi havent solved anything.
unless you consider watchign ata stillframe frozen for 4hours better then a blackscreen.
If you actually consider that progress and fun i feel sorry for you.
After what I used to go through I'll take TiDi and be happy.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
8697
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 19:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Right now, I am in a high sec system, at least 4 jumps from low sec, let alone null.
And we have Tidi at 77%, (was 87% a moment ago) with 33 people in local.
Yeah, this TiDi thing is working great.
nodes have more than one system on them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
EI Digin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
1383
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 20:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jita is another interesting case.
Because there's such low risk hanging out with the most dangerous and unpredictable entity (other players) while in highsec, people will flock together in a centralized location to do trade. There's little point in doing business other hubs because for the most part, things are most efficient and cheaper in the same singular location.
The result is a single system for trade that has a huge hardware requirement with player limits and TiDi. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
1162
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 21:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
Root of the problem ....
1) No friendly fire ... guns fire through friendly ships, how nice.
2) No AoE damage from exploding ships.
You design a game for the mindless blob, you naturally get a mindless blob in return.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Prince Kobol
1180
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Posted - 2013.11.23 22:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
I absolutely hate being involved large scale fights now.
I simply do not have the time to sit there for hours and hours on end and knowing that nothing will be accomplished because there is a very good chance the node will crash.
So question is what is the point?
I do not blame any alliance for wanting to bring more people to a fight.
The point of any engagement is to win and it is usually those who have more numbers that do win.
The fact is CCP has needed to do something with Sov Warfare Mechanics and have totally ignored it.
The entire nature of Sov Warfare means you need large numbers to grind structures which in turns means large fleets.
The problem will only get worse as alliances / coalitions grow in size and are able to bring more people to any given fight. |
Jessica Danikov
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
139
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Posted - 2013.11.24 18:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Honestly, I think it's a failure for nullblocs to innovate their strategy, which is partially the fault of sov mechanics (it's difficult to create a situation where it's advantageous to be in more than one place) and partially the fault of nullblocs blindly barging through their problems one timer at a time with as many numbers as possible. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17507
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 18:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Right now, I am in a high sec system, at least 4 jumps from low sec, let alone null.
And we have Tidi at 77%, (was 87% a moment ago) with 33 people in local. GǪand what does the distance to null or low have to do with anything? How do you determine how many people are on the node with you?
Quote:Yeah, this TiDi thing is working great. It sure is. Or were you just being erroneously sarcastic based on not really understanding how the server is set up or how TiDi works?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Iria Ahrens
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
96
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Posted - 2013.11.24 18:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Root of the problem ....
1) No friendly fire ... guns fire through friendly ships, how nice.
2) No AoE damage from exploding ships.
You design a game for the mindless blob, you naturally get a mindless blob in return.
AoE damage from exploding ships is good. The friendly fire thing... not so.
The thing is, Space is big. Really really big. Positioning ships so they aren't in the line of fire would be easy if eve were real. It is the game interface that makes ships clusterfisk the way they do in game.
Because you disdained all my counsel, and my reproof you ignoredGÇö
I, in my turn, will laugh at your doom; will mock when terror overtakes you; -- Ultimate Griefer's Handbook |
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