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p3rcy
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Posted - 2003.09.03 23:09:00 -
[1]
I;ve been hearing rumours about changes going to be put in place to help defend against ppl who seal from cans in indy ships. Is it troo we will have the ability to attack them or wil they remain "invulnerable".
Really have to laugh at the way police prtect those stealing? Remind how that works again :)
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.09.03 23:14:00 -
[2]
I think it's going to be a "hostile" activity to open someone elses can.
It means you can shoot back.
Of course, this defeats the whole purpose the secure cans........
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
p3rcy
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Posted - 2003.09.03 23:15:00 -
[3]
secure cans only hold about 420 - 1000 units so there useless for mining with
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TekRa
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Posted - 2003.09.03 23:17:00 -
[4]
You're allowed to use more than 1 you know 
> With the lights out it's less dangerous. |
Cruise
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Posted - 2003.09.03 23:19:00 -
[5]
The only problem I see with the secure cans is when you get mass mining efforts and the belt is littered with cans. The lag could be horrid.
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Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
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p3rcy
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Posted - 2003.09.03 23:19:00 -
[6]
yeah i know but you can only fdorp one every 5 mins so that nmakes it very impractical
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.09.04 00:20:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
yeah i know but you can only fdorp one every 5 mins so that nmakes it very impractical
Well, there you go. Mine slow and safe, or mine fast and take risks. Why do so many people have such a problem with this concept?
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Scimitar
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Posted - 2003.09.04 00:51:00 -
[8]
No offence baldour but that post was utterly useless it also made no sense :S
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Morlocke
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Posted - 2003.09.04 02:47:00 -
[9]
Secure cans were a clumsy attempt to solve the problem in the first place. Now they're just generating litter in all the belts, since they last forever and people just leave them parked there.
Looking forward to shooting a few *****s, myself.
M
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Othnark
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Posted - 2003.09.04 06:36:00 -
[10]
Miners are using their jettisoned containers in a way that was never intended. (Go read the CCP support topic on ore theivery if you dont believe me) There is no way the jettisoned containers should be able to hold more ore than any cargo bay possibly could. Ore loss is the risk assumed with this kind of mining.
If they eliminate that risk by putting on criminal flags, I say they have to fix the cans so they dont hold a ridiculous amount of ore.
Further, I want thieves to be able to fire back and defend themselves. IE: treat the whole incident as a temporary declaration of war. Police dont get involved for say 15 minutes. That will make things very interesting indeed.
-Othnark
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Jolo
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Posted - 2003.09.04 07:15:00 -
[11]
I feel mining Veld and Scor should be risk free. No matter what. But for some reason, some people feel that you should be unsafe in any secrity area. If i want Omber or Bistot (or Ark and Spod...NOT) I will go to dangerous space. But I should be free in 0.9 and 1.0 space.
Long Discussion here: Click Me
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.09.04 08:00:00 -
[12]
Quote:
No offence baldour but that post was utterly useless it also made no sense :S
You mean I can write it in words of one syllable and you STILL don't get it? Geeze.
It's very, very simple. Anything that you jettison does not legally belong to you, so anyone who comes along and takes it has not committed theft. If you want to eliminate the risk of that happening, don't drop-mine; drag secure containers out to the belts, or mine to your hold and warp back to station every time it's full. Yes, I know it's slow, but that's the price you pay for eliminating the risk. If you want to drop-mine because it's an awful lot faster, you have to accept the risks involved - chief among them being, a scavenger might come along and grab all the ore you painstakingly collected. Too bad.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.09.04 08:02:00 -
[13]
Quote:
I feel mining Veld and Scor should be risk free. No matter what.
It *IS* risk free. Nobody can shoot at you without bringing Concord down on them. That has nothing to do with ore scavenging, which is about people thinking they should be able to leave stuff lying around, risk free. That's not going to happen, and no reason it should.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
CT BadIronTree
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Posted - 2003.09.04 08:27:00 -
[14]
they tell that sec. cargo will be the same us not sec in your shippp if you die and you have sec. people can pick up the cargo and loot...
they will make sec. cargo to be sec only when you deploy it... so if it is in you ship will be able to put like 3000 cargo in it... but if you deploy it in space it will be secure and can take 15k of cargo so this rulz...
all the miners want.. + no more kill me na na na na i have sec cargo you cant pick it up i will come when you are not around and pick it up exploid :)
============================================
Colossus Technologies
The first and oldest corp in eve!
BadIronTree Head of Production
CSM Chat Log September 25, 2003:
Fuhry> Some things we simply cannot test, and therefore we just put it on Tranq. cross our fingers and then get into panic mode.
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playing (or beta testing)since Sat, 2 Nov 2002 16:06 (beta 5)
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.09.04 08:27:00 -
[15]
If they are going to make opening jet-cans a 'hostile' act, I still don't see what people will be able to do about it. But, as long as this 'fix' makes them feel better, I don't really care.
Although if this *is* done, I suggest lowering the capacity of the 'trash-bags' as 27000 m3 seems a little excessive.
And like Joshua said, this makes secure cans a bit of a waste of database, as I can't really see many people using them.
Also, the 5 minute timer is totally irrelevant. I've not seen anyone be able to mine 27000m3 in 5 minutes. And tbh, I never expect to see such a thing.
Nice sig btw, Josh. 
.
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Tim Maser
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Posted - 2003.09.04 08:38:00 -
[16]
Guys enough of this about containers. If you jettison something, your tossing it into space as trash. Just because it shows up in a container that came from your ship doesn't mean that it some how is still yours and if someone opens it that Concord should blow the hell out of them.
Here, this sums up exactly what I feel about this subject and was just add into support by CCP:
Question
Why is it so easy to steal ore ?
Answer The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargohold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.
This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harrassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.
CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.
The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecure container is equivelant to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord.
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MissEvil
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Posted - 2003.09.04 10:57:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.
This is so true my friend. This week i've had a total of about 5 assasination attempts carried out upon me, numerous abusive messages and constant abuse in the local chat window. I think my days are numbered, anyway, it was fun whilst it lasted  |
Alexia Te'Len
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:03:00 -
[18]
Yup, counter-measures are being brought in.
Won't stop me though, if a chance presents itself I'll take it.
Haven't made a Career out my "Pay or lose the cargo!" thing, but if it gets people to use secure cargo containers then at least I've done something for the Community.
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MissEvil
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:18:00 -
[19]
And i thought i was the only female in the business. Im glad its not just me, its good theres more independent women out there who dont let men miners walk all over us and treat us like petty housewives. Girl power  |
Alexia Te'Len
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:20:00 -
[20]
Quote:
And i thought i was the only female in the business. Im glad its not just me, its good theres more independent women out there who dont let men miners walk all over us and treat us like petty housewives. Girl power
Sorry to burst your bubble, love, bu I'm actually a sixteen year old bloke with too much spare time on his hands. 
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MissEvil
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:21:00 -
[21]
If i was who i said i was then perhaps i might have been slightly hurt there, however im a 20yr old male with a lot of spare time as well |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:23:00 -
[22]
Quote:
but if it gets people to use secure cargo containers then at least I've done something for the Community.
This is hilariously circular logic.
People need to use secure containers to avoid spineless punks like you. Now you say you do this so that people will start using secure containers and this is a good "thing for the community"... except it's only good because people like you exist in the first place!
You can't create a problem and then call yourself a hero for solving it.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
RAIDAKAOZ
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:24:00 -
[23]
this wont work and I tell u why, simple.......
people mine together and one person mines while the other transfers it to a station is called teamwork, by doing this as u say ur are defeating teamwork.now ur partner u mine with cant haul ur ore cause its considered hostile acts , people need tp think
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If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it is probably a chicken that CCP ****ed up. |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:26:00 -
[24]
Quote:
this wont work and I tell u why, simple.......
people mine together and one person mines while the other transfers it to a station is called teamwork, by doing this as u say ur are defeating teamwork.now ur partner u mine with cant haul ur ore cause its considered hostile acts , people need tp think
Umm, simple solution is that members of the same Gang or Corporation have access to each other's cargo containers.
Maybe you need to think. 
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Alexia Te'Len
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:27:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Quote:
but if it gets people to use secure cargo containers then at least I've done something for the Community.
This is hilariously circular logic.
People need to use secure containers to avoid spineless punks like you. Now you say you do this so that people will start using secure containers and this is a good "thing for the community"... except it's only good because people like you exist in the first place!
You can't create a problem and then call yourself a hero for solving it.
Nonononono, you mis-understood me (Although I didn't elaborate so it's my fault).
The chances I "jump" are those people in 0.5 space or above that use Cruisers with un-Godly amounts of Mining lasers and Harvester Drones....yet they use un-secure containers.
Why is that? If they have all this wealth why can't the at least fork out for a bit of extra security?
I target these people because, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, they're the ones who should have the common sense to use secure containers in the first place.
However, if it's a Frigate plugging away at an Asteroid, I'll leave them be....I just assume that they're either a newbie, therefore not knowing about the secure containers, or just don't have the money to buy one in the first place.
Is that a little more understandable?
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RAIDAKAOZ
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:28:00 -
[26]
The other thing, u want this game as real as possible, u leave something out someone will steal it, if u shoot them and kill them even thought they stole ur stuff u go to jail. There is other ways to fix this, but this isnt one of them, simpley because it kills teamwork. I got my ore stolen from Fred Conquer , he wont go out of secure space cause he dont want azz whoopin. But in the end no matter what ccp does people will find a way around as ythey always have done and always will do............
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If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it is probably a chicken that CCP ****ed up. |
MissEvil
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:33:00 -
[27]
Quote:
You can't create a problem and then call yourself a hero for solving it.
I wouldn't class myself as a hero, maybe more of an educator of the masses. People are ignorant and believe that they can simply use unsecure cargo containers, time after time i have warned people that there are evil people around, but will they listen to me? No. Instead, i now perform education and teach people. You would've thought im doing them a favour, however instead they turn on me and bite the hand that fed them!  |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:44:00 -
[28]
Quote:
You would've thought im doing them a favour, however instead they turn on me and bite the hand that fed them!
Yuck yuck.
Get a real job, loser.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Scragg
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Posted - 2003.09.04 13:04:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Scragg on 04/09/2003 13:05:56
Can you imagine the exploitability of being able to shoot people who open your can?
You chunk out a can and warp to a planet. Your buddy spots for you in a newby ship about 15k past your can.
Unsuspecting greedy dweeb#1 comes up to the can, sees it is owned by someone besides your buddy and figures it is abandoned rat loot or somethign and loots said can.
You gang warp to your buddy and vaporize greedy dweeb#1 newby ship with your battleship you bough on eBay. Wow... your so kewl.
OMG people... have NONE of you actually played other games that had similiar lame ideas? This is like how years ago in Ultima Online you would be wandering down the road and you find a dead body in the middle of the road with no one around.... you decided to loot the corps and 8 guys apear from nowhere and gank you.
The loot stealing thing was fixed with secure containers. Use the or shut the hell up.
Scragg, Tyrell Corporation
Vice-Director Military Operations |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 13:56:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Can you imagine the exploitability of being able to shoot people who open your can?
You chunk out a can and warp to a planet. Your buddy spots for you in a newby ship about 15k past your can.
Unsuspecting greedy dweeb#1 comes up to the can, sees it is owned by someone besides your buddy and figures it is abandoned rat loot or somethign and loots said can.
You gang warp to your buddy and vaporize greedy dweeb#1 newby ship with your battleship you bough on eBay. Wow... your so kewl.
Umm, how is this an exploit?
greedy dweeb #1 knows the rules of the game like everyone else.
If looting a can that doesn't belong to you is an aggressive act, it's the looters fault not the person using it as bait.
OMG.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Master Scy
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Posted - 2003.09.04 14:10:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Master Scy on 04/09/2003 14:10:44
I can already see it... A miner with 1 gun for shooting pirates and 4 mining lasers gets his container looted, opens fire and then loses his ship because the looter had 5 guns on his ship... Then this miner gets extremely upset and comes to whine on the forums, and CCP of course puts a sentry gun on every jetissoned container so that when they're looted they're guaranteed to kill the looter...
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You think Marco Polo said
"Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ?
-Indigo Seqi
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RAIDAKAOZ
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Posted - 2003.09.04 14:20:00 -
[32]
what u think its that easy to make code, then why dont u do it for them :)
Quote:
Quote:
this wont work and I tell u why, simple.......
people mine together and one person mines while the other transfers it to a station is called teamwork, by doing this as u say ur are defeating teamwork.now ur partner u mine with cant haul ur ore cause its considered hostile acts , people need tp think
Umm, simple solution is that members of the same Gang or Corporation have access to each other's cargo containers.
Maybe you need to think.
------------------
If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it is probably a chicken that CCP ****ed up. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.04 14:21:00 -
[33]
*Sigh* complicated solutions for non-existant problems. You people have no idea how useless this really is, do you? It's just a waste of programmer time.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 14:25:00 -
[34]
Quote:
*Sigh* complicated solutions for non-existant problems. You people have no idea how useless this really is, do you? It's just a waste of programmer time.
Useless to you perhaps because you do not focus on mining as your primary source of income. Fortunately you're not the only person who plays this game.
Quote:
what u think its that easy to make code, then why dont u do it for them :)
By that rationale they shouldn't fix any problems which require code.
Though I hesitate to call this a "rationale" since it's a pretty senseless comment.
Incdientally the only thing stopping me from helping would be a job offer.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.04 14:36:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Quote:
*Sigh* complicated solutions for non-existant problems. You people have no idea how useless this really is, do you? It's just a waste of programmer time.
Useless to you perhaps because you do not focus on mining as your primary source of income. Fortunately you're not the only person who plays this game.
No, Veruna. Useless to you. Tell me:
How do you plan to stop a fully kitted Mammoth?
There are 2 vessels I'm aware of with enough firepower leftoever after stringing on the mining lasers. A Rupture and a Tempest. Everything else, you'll be lucky to breach the shields before they leave.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Kennian
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Posted - 2003.09.04 14:52:00 -
[36]
it's called a thorax.
8 heavy drones, and a warp scrambler...you'd be in a pod in 10 seconds.
speaking of which... why the hell do people want to make mineing MORE of a chore? you're already sitting there watching the mineing lasers humm, now you want us to string out 15 or 20 of these large containers? The giant and huge dont work, remember? stupid. never understand why some people want to ruin everyone elses fun. no respect for griefers, exploiters and thieves...
] |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.09.04 14:56:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Discorporation on 04/09/2003 14:56:46
Quote:
Umm, how is this an exploit?
greedy dweeb #1 knows the rules of the game like everyone else.
If looting a can that doesn't belong to you is an aggressive act, it's the looters fault not the person using it as bait.
OMG.
Then I'm sure you don't mind ore stealers.
After all, people jettisoning cans know that anyone can take ore from it, right?
If just anyone can take from a cargo container, then using it as a storage device to subsequently having it emptied by someone else is your fault
OMG PWNED..
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.04 15:35:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 04/09/2003 15:51:46
Quote:
it's called a thorax.
8 heavy drones, and a warp scrambler...you'd be in a pod in 10 seconds.
speaking of which... why the hell do people want to make mineing MORE of a chore? you're already sitting there watching the mineing lasers humm, now you want us to string out 15 or 20 of these large containers? The giant and huge dont work, remember? stupid. never understand why some people want to ruin everyone elses fun. no respect for griefers, exploiters and thieves...
Kennian, you don't know ships. Mammoth has 5 mid slots, 700 Armor and 750 structure. Kitted for speed, my Mammoth has 3200m3 cargo and pushes 900m/s. And it takes all of about 5 seconds to open a cargo container, grab the ore and warp out (I do pickups for my corp in one).
And who are you kidding? If you're mining in a Thorax, you'll be mining lasered up and playing Puppet Master with mining drones. Thorax can hold 7 harvesters and 5 Wasps. Assuming that you can get within 1.5km of the roid, it takes about 3-5 seconds to recall the mining drones and another 3-5 seconds to launch combat drones (yes, I mine in a thorax for the corp and have drone interfacing and).
So let's do a little real thinking here. Assuming you plan for the ore thief to have a warp core stabilizer, you'll have at least 1 strength 2 warp scrambler. With a range of 7500m. Mining in high sec space, you can dump the shield booster and put 2-3 warp disruptors on total. 7500 or 20km scramblers, it really doesn't matter as the Thorax is slower than dirt and a Mammoth is agile enough to fly circles around it. So even with locking the suspicious person in the industrial slowly tooling towards your container before they do anything, you think that you can:
1) Recall mining drones and deploy combat drones
2) Warp scramble the Industrial
3) Order the combat drones to attack
4) Keep the industrial in warp scramble range.
5) Actually destroy the industrial
When you can't start scrambling or ordering the drones to attack until after the ore thief has opened your container. And from that point, you've got maybe 3 seconds before he's underway.
Miners shouldn't play at being combat vets. It's pathetic. Any industrial kitted to run a blockade will make your 'awesome' combat skills completely useless. Against next to non-existant firepower, an industrial is hellacious to stop. You're too used to getting dusted in your industrial by battleships.
PS:
Kennian, when my corp mines in high sec space we usually have enough hauling capacity and quick enough turn around time that an ore thief won't get anything but scraps. Which we really don't care about. They will not find 3 fully laden cans sitting about. That only happens with solo miners trying to be greedy. I have no sympathy for them.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 15:55:00 -
[39]
AFK miners and Carebear miners should be nerfed as well. To force them to get really earn there money and go out in the rest of the world. Ore Thiefs right now are the only means of doing this.
I don't see it happening. Scragg is right about it used as an exploit.
unless when you jet a can it says "Char's Name"'s container it won't happen.
Player jet cans and Rat loot have the same name. All you got to do is put it out from the belt in .8 space and make it look like rat loot left there and poof, killing newbs for free. Not to mention many other ways to use it.
I see only the AFK miners and carebear miners crying about this anyway.
I can see if the can is sitting right next to you when they come and steal ore as a hostile act. But if they were to impliment an idea like this I would make it so that as soon as you leave the belt and the can is no longer owned by you. That would fix the problem.
Or make it so Cops come and kill the thief only for players that are less then a week old.
CCP can't make everyone happy. If they totally kill Ore thiefs abilities. Other people will start whinning that AFK miners have it way to easy.
No if this Idea happened in game with no nerfing of the AFK/Carebear miners as well. I would start a petition agianst it, and would have alot of support. More so then the abillity to kill ore thiefs in 1.0 space.
If you want to kill ore thiefs then go to .4 and below otherwise buy secure cans.
If they really wanted to get rid of ore thiefs they would have made secure contains bottomless or expandable with how much ore you put in it. But they don't. Why, because of AFK/Carebear miners.
It would have been too easy to kill off that profession al long time ago. But EVE says you can become anything you want.
If they want to nerf that profession more. Then they should raise the the ability for Pirates(Neg sec rating players) to come into empire space and put in less cops. Or lower the amount of ore in empire space, make it real easy for a belt to disapear from over mining, so easy that it forces players to go out further.
Or make it so players over a month are not alowed to enter .8 and above belts.
Or Keep it the way it is.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 15:56:00 -
[40]
Quote:
That only happens with solo miners trying to be greedy. I have no sympathy for them.
Of course you don't. Why would you have sympathy for anyone who is not in your exact situation?
Not everyone has a large active corporation to back their mining operations. Not everyone has the time to organize and participate in larger, lower security operations.
New players who have not yet found a corporation or who are members of smaller, less equipped corporations than you don't share the same luxuries as you but should still have a fair chance to obtain a few minerals.
But, you're right, no use caring about new players just you and your awesome corporation and their efficient mining ops!
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:00:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Player jet cans and Rat loot have the same name. All you got to do is put it out from the belt in .8 space and make it look like rat loot left there and poof, killing newbs for free. Not to mention many other ways to use it.
I think it goes without saying that if they changed container ownership rules they would change the way they look. That's not hard to figure out.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:05:00 -
[42]
Your right it does sound ovious. But is that the only point you sought to pick out.
NERF AFK/CAREBEAR Miners!!!!!! Let the Newbs have the belts.
Or let the Thiefs be. If you can't get secure cans and mine or do it in a smarter way thats your problem.
Mindly mining is pethetic and too easy a way to make money.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:21:00 -
[43]
Quote:
NERF AFK/CAREBEAR Miners!!!!!! Let the Newbs have the belts.
Or let the Thiefs be. If you can't get secure cans and mine or do it in a smarter way thats your problem.
Mindly mining is pethetic and too easy a way to make money
Why are you so concerned with preventing AFK mining?
AFK mining, or solo mining (both are subject to ore thievery) are exclusively a high security asteroid belt activity. Nobody can efficiently mine alone or AFK in low security space.
Since the real profit and real good ores are only obtained from low security space, why worry so much about high security mining?
Give new players and those without corporate backing a chance to mine alone in safety without worrying about having their ore stolen and leave the REAL mining - the real profit - to those like you (Jash) with the experience and corporate backing to take on large and lucrative mining operations.
Nerfing solo/afk mining only makes it harder for new players to get a foothold and make a living. Why make it harder for them and drive them from the game early on?
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:23:00 -
[44]
I have seen Battleships in .8 systems striping belts clean leaving nothing for newb miners.
If you notice everyone goes to those systems to mine veld and other easy ore and then go out further and just mine the rest. They should go back to the old way of refilling the roid.
If you got to the .8 systems and above there is hardly any ore. I fyou go to the .2 belts for jaspet there is hardly any jaspet, Kernite, omber ect... and HUGE Veld and Scorite roids. So big you cann't even get close enough to mine them!!!
They Nerf Fighters. They Nerf Pirates. They Nerf PvP. I think they should Nerf Miners.
I heard a about a hacking skill that would allow you to hack into a secure can. That totally contradics what this poster is saying.
I say go ahead and allow this to happen. Then you will so pirates in Battleships coming in to steal your ore, go ahead and fire on them then. They would do it becuase they want your ore, but to start a fight so they can kill you for free.
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:25:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Kalhan on 04/09/2003 16:26:09
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NERF AFK/CAREBEAR Miners!!!!!! Let the Newbs have the belts.
Or let the Thiefs be. If you can't get secure cans and mine or do it in a smarter way thats your problem.
Mindly mining is pethetic and too easy a way to make money
Why are you so concerned with preventing AFK mining?
AFK mining, or solo mining (both are subject to ore thievery) are exclusively a high security asteroid belt activity. Nobody can efficiently mine alone or AFK in low security space.
Since the real profit and real good ores are only obtained from low security space, why worry so much about high security mining?
Give new players and those without corporate backing a chance to mine alone in safety without worrying about having their ore stolen and leave the REAL mining - the real profit - to those like you (Jash) with the experience and corporate backing to take on large and lucrative mining operations.
Nerfing solo/afk mining only makes it harder for new players to get a foothold and make a living. Why make it harder for them and drive them from the game early on?
Veruna -- I think you need to read all of my post before saying this. Not just one of them or part of one of them, but all of at least the first one I did no the second page.
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Jolo
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:26:00 -
[46]
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I have seen Battleships in .8 systems striping belts clean leaving nothing for newb miners.
I've mined with my corp and in hours with Apocs and Megathrons, we can never strip a belt in one session. With usually 3-20 belts per system, even if we managed to erase an entire belt, i think the newbies would be ok. On top of that, the rocks usually respawn overnight. So I don't know what you're talking about.
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:29:00 -
[47]
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I have seen Battleships in .8 systems striping belts clean leaving nothing for newb miners.
I've mined with my corp and in hours with Apocs and Megathrons, we can never strip a belt in one session. With usually 3-20 belts per system, even if we managed to erase an entire belt, i think the newbies would be ok. On top of that, the rocks usually respawn overnight. So I don't know what you're talking about.
I overegzagerated a bit but thats not the point of that post. If your in a apoc or mega. Go out further and mine.
There are roids as big as a station there becuase of the new way they do the refills on them. 14K wide you can't even get close enough to mine it.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:31:00 -
[48]
Well, let's leave the asteroid respawn problem out of this discussion. I'm pretty sure CCP has confirmed that there is indeed a bug with the respawn rates on them, so it should be resolved eventually.
That said... I just don't see why you are so against AFK/solo miners. If it's such a glamorous profession and "easy money" then why aren't you doing it?
Let me answer for you: because it's boring, lonely and tedious. New players have little choice in the matter, it's one of the only ways to make a living early on.
It's already boring, it's already tedious - why lump on top of that the worry of having people empty your can with no possibility for retribution/punishment? It's just more crap to deal with and doesn't really add anything to the game.
You say AFK miners are looking for an easy way out - but then what are ore thieves doing? At least miners have to invest TIME into what they're doing. Ore thieves feed off the work AFK miners do, which is even more pathetic.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:34:00 -
[49]
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I overegzagerated a bit but thats not the point of that post. If your in a apoc or mega. Go out further and mine.
I agree that fleets of battleships stripmining newbie belts is kind of weak - but that's a seperate issue, and it's not going to be solved by ore thieves.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:38:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Kalhan on 04/09/2003 16:42:35
VERUNA!! - Again read all of my post (I don't mean to be rude)
Maybe I am not putting it simple enough.
I am not against AFK Miners that are newbies. I am against afk miners that are striping the belts in newb land.
I have another Char(unnamed) that ore steals. I don't REPEAT don't steal from the newby players. I see a guy in a Thorax mining with an unsecure can next to him. I go up and steal from it. And if they make that skill to allow players to hack secure cans I will make sure he gets that one too.
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:41:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Kalhan on 04/09/2003 16:41:42
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I overegzagerated a bit but thats not the point of that post. If your in a apoc or mega. Go out further and mine.
I agree that fleets of battleships stripmining newbie belts is kind of weak - but that's a seperate issue, and it's not going to be solved by ore thieves.
I mentioned in my other post that they should make it so the cops come and kill thieves that steal from newbs less then a week old.
Or make it so players older then 2 or 3 weeks to a month are not allowed in belts .7 or .8 and up.
I have alot of this on my first post an second page Please PLEASE read so I don't have to repeat myself over and over again.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:44:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 04/09/2003 16:57:58
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That only happens with solo miners trying to be greedy. I have no sympathy for them.
Of course you don't. Why would you have sympathy for anyone who is not in your exact situation?
Not everyone has a large active corporation to back their mining operations. Not everyone has the time to organize and participate in larger, lower security operations.
New players who have not yet found a corporation or who are members of smaller, less equipped corporations than you don't share the same luxuries as you but should still have a fair chance to obtain a few minerals.
But, you're right, no use caring about new players just you and your awesome corporation and their efficient mining ops!
"Large active corporation"??? ROFL, you truly do not know me. My 'large' corporation is 10 people strong. With 3 US players, 3 UK players 2 Canadians, 1 Norwegian (I think) and 1 research alt I keep forgetting to delete since I surpassed his skills. Why don't you try organizing a mining party with those timezones to mix.
I mine in low sec space using non-secure containers solo for manufacturing needs. Have done so since I got Drone skill to level 4 (Hammerheads for rat defense). A frigate pilot with basic skills and a semi-decent frigate could run cover against the pirates that spawn in the fields, provided he didn't die of boredom waiting between spawns.
So anything else? Or do you need more help on "How to Be a Miner". I'm truly not the best person for such advice, as I detest mining with a passion. But I can have the corp's XO give you a few pointers. She loves it 
Or you could just ask me nicely and I'd suggest contacting one of the corps manufacturing in low sec space. They'd more than likely love to have you and others come out to mine in the belts near their bases. And even fly cover for you while you mine + buy the ore from you at fair market value. Which sounds better to you:
1) Mining Scordite at 7 isk per unit.
2) Mining Omber at 40 isk per unit.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jolo
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:48:00 -
[53]
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I overegzagerated a bit but thats not the point of that post. If your in a apoc or mega. Go out further and mine.
There are roids as big as a station there becuase of the new way they do the refills on them. 14K wide you can't even get close enough to mine it.
I often mine bistot. and back in the day arknor. But that's not the point. Our old base had 30K wide roids, but we like high sec space for the security, but so far, all we've had is a bad taste in our mouths.
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 16:50:00 -
[54]
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I overegzagerated a bit but thats not the point of that post. If your in a apoc or mega. Go out further and mine.
There are roids as big as a station there becuase of the new way they do the refills on them. 14K wide you can't even get close enough to mine it.
I often mine bistot. and back in the day arknor. But that's not the point. Our old base had 30K wide roids, but we like high sec space for the security, but so far, all we've had is a bad taste in our mouths.
Not to be rude but you could have used the edit button to edit your previous post that said the same thing. This is sort of a waste.
And again please read my post on second page.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 17:06:00 -
[55]
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A frigate pilot with basic skills and a semi-decent frigate could run cover against the pirates that spawn in the fields, provided he didn't die of boredom waiting between spawns.
Umm, a frigate equipped to fight pirates is not going to be mining very efficiently, is it?
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I mine in low sec space using non-secure containers solo for manufacturing needs. Have done so since I got Drone skill to level 4 (Hammerheads for rat defense).
Not all players have these skills or the equipment (or the time) to mine in this situation. As with the other thread - why do you think everyone should do things the same way you do?
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So anything else? Or do you need more help on "How to Be a Miner".
No I'm actually all set on information about that. I make more isk than I can spend and I sell at below market prices as is.
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Or you could just ask me nicely and I'd suggest contacting one of the corps manufacturing in low sec space. They'd more than likely love to have you and others come out to mine in the belts near their bases. And even fly cover for you while you mine + buy the ore from you at fair market value. Which sounds better to you:
I'm already in a corporation. I don't have the skills, the ship or the equipment to make low security mining worth my time right now. While I wait for them, I mine in high security areas and do just fine there, thanks.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Jolo
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Posted - 2003.09.04 17:09:00 -
[56]
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AFK miners and Carebear miners should be nerfed as well....
First off, are you a DEV? Do you have any idea how they are implementing the system? If you are then i'm sorry. If you aren't then you can't claim to know that exploits will occur since you have no clue on how the system will work in the game.
Second, AFK isn't a problem. I think MORE people should be mining, we mine all day long and can never afford to sell any of it because we need every single piece of tri, py etc for ship prodcution. If every member of my corp AFK Mined, we'd STILL never have enough to sell and get "Rich with no risk". I wish I knew who all these fat cats were, I want to be rich too! I see tons of people AFK mining and they are still in frigates. I don't know why people think AFK is so bad. *shrugs* Is it really that bad to mine 40K of veld? Will this REALLY make you so rich? Why am I mining bistot when i can AFK mine 40K of veld!! with no risk!
Third, using the term carbear....i'll leave it that.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.04 17:15:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 04/09/2003 17:17:08
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 04/09/2003 17:16:33
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I don't know why people think AFK is so bad. *shrugs* Is it really that bad to mine 40K of veld? Will this REALLY make you so rich? Why am I mining bistot when i can AFK mine 40K of veld!! with no risk!
Hah. Exactly my point, thank you.
People want to keep ore thieves to discourage AFK miners, when the majority of AFK miners are sitting in Bantams or Probes mining 40k of Veldspar per hour to trying and save up for skills or new modules for their ships. Like they REALLY need the added headache of people stealing their 3 hours worth of Veldspar that's only going to make a few hundred thousand isk anyway.
Meanwhile Jash's only argument seems to be "I am strong enough to survive and mine in low security space - so everyone should do the same thing!"
Haha.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 17:20:00 -
[58]
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AFK miners and Carebear miners should be nerfed as well....
First off, are you a DEV? Do you have any idea how they are implementing the system? If you are then i'm sorry. If you aren't then you can't claim to know that exploits will occur since you have no clue on how the system will work in the game.
Nope not a DEV otherwise If I was I wouldn't implement this system.
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Second, AFK isn't a problem. I think MORE people should be mining, we mine all day long and can never afford to sell any of it because we need every single piece of tri, py etc for ship prodcution. If every member of my corp AFK Mined, we'd STILL never have enough to sell and get "Rich with no risk". I wish I knew who all these fat cats were, I want to be rich too! I see tons of people AFK mining and they are still in frigates. I don't know why people think AFK is so bad. *shrugs* Is it really that bad to mine 40K of veld? Will this REALLY make you so rich? Why am I mining bistot when i can AFK mine 40K of veld!! with no risk!
Third, using the term carbear....i'll leave it that.
It isn't a get rich quick way but it is the fastest way.
Besides that you missed the point completely. Don't nerf the newbs, the older players mining in thoraxs should be nerf. But they can't seperate the two right now. So they should keep ore thiefs in and not add such a system that further nerfs them more then the secure cans does without nerfing the miners as well.
If you read any of my post before. I said they have made it harder for every other profession but miner.
Eve allows you to be want you want to be as long as you don't harrass other players. Stealing is no harrassing it is a profession that CCP allows.
I don't see them putting that rumor in anyway.
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Jolo
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Posted - 2003.09.04 17:21:00 -
[59]
Quote:
Meanwhile Jash's only argument seems to be "I am strong enough to survive and mine in low security space - so everyone should do the same thing!"
Haha.
I don't know if it was said, but we mine in 0.9 space to help new players in our corp learn about the game. In our corp we all teach and help each other, even if it means we have to take a month off from bistot duty.
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 17:31:00 -
[60]
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People want to keep ore thieves to discourage AFK miners, when the majority of AFK miners are sitting in Bantams or Probes mining 40k of Veldspar per hour to trying and save up for skills or new modules for their ships. Like they REALLY need the added headache of people stealing their 3 hours worth of Veldspar that's only going to make a few hundred thousand isk anyway.
Use secure containers then.
I agree with not stealing from newb players. My Thief char doesn't. It take way to long for a new player to mine alot of ore.
They should make it so you can't steal from players that are less the a week (of actually in game time) old. After that they should be adequite enough to go out and mine in more dangerous spots.
They should keep ore thiefs to steal from the greedy players in 1.0 space mining in thoraxes and Battleships and dumb enough to not use secure containers and then add that skill I heard about to allow Theives to hack into secure cans (lockpicking).
There are 2 kinds of people that want a system like the one suggested.
1. The newbies - I support them.
2. The Greedy players like mentioned above. Keep ore thiefs for them.
I think They should make it so if your Char has 2 weeks of ingame time you shouldn't be allowed to enter .7 or .8 and above belts. That would solve the problem for the newbs and The Greedy players just have to use secure cans or suck it up.
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Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.04 17:35:00 -
[61]
Besides I don't see them adding this.
CCP doesn't want anyone who is not in a corp war to fire on eachother in empire space.
And just like being a miner, being a thief is a profetion that CCP allows.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.04 17:39:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 04/09/2003 17:43:28
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A frigate pilot with basic skills and a semi-decent frigate could run cover against the pirates that spawn in the fields, provided he didn't die of boredom waiting between spawns.
Umm, a frigate equipped to fight pirates is not going to be mining very efficiently, is it?
My my my...Hostile and obtuse too. That's a 2 man op I was describing. Now I suppose you'll tell me that a player can't ask someone "Hey, will someone cover me while I mine? I'll split the isk with you".
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I mine in low sec space using non-secure containers solo for manufacturing needs. Have done so since I got Drone skill to level 4 (Hammerheads for rat defense).
Not all players have these skills or the equipment (or the time) to mine in this situation. As with the other thread - why do you think everyone should do things the same way you do?
That's the solution I've found for getting things done. 2 people, using equipment they can get in the first few days after creating their character can do the same. But as in the other thread, you keep saying "I don't have the skills. I don't have the equipment". No, that's not what you're missing at all. You're missing something else that can't be bought with isk.
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So anything else? Or do you need more help on "How to Be a Miner".
No I'm actually all set on information about that. I make more isk than I can spend and I sell at below market prices as is.
I'm happy for you. You still haven't said how you expect to kill an industrial even if CCP wastes the time to implement these moronic changes.
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Or you could just ask me nicely and I'd suggest contacting one of the corps manufacturing in low sec space. They'd more than likely love to have you and others come out to mine in the belts near their bases. And even fly cover for you while you mine + buy the ore from you at fair market value. Which sounds better to you:
I'm already in a corporation. I don't have the skills, the ship or the equipment to make low security mining worth my time right now. While I wait for them, I mine in high security areas and do just fine there, thanks.
That wasn't an offer to join my corporation. I'd end up podding you in frustration. I'm just pointing out alternative solutions. You're the one that's wedded to the idea you need a fleet and massive skills to operate in low sec space.
No worries. We'll see you back here complaining that you can't kill an ore thief even after they flag them as criminals and begging CCP to sic Concord on them.
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Meanwhile Jash's only argument seems to be "I am strong enough to survive and mine in low security space - so everyone should do the same thing!"
Haha.
No, my only reply is that you're either too timid to actually take a risk or too lazy. So I quite honestly don't see why the developers should be wasting time to satisfy you when there are other things that are more important.
Ore Thieves vs Corp Income? Ore Thieves vs PvP issues? Ore Thieves vs Content? Please. Whining to get yet another layer of code added to the aggression system when the layers below it don't work properly in the first place.
Waste
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.10 16:26:00 -
[63]
here is another
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TerminusX
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Posted - 2003.09.10 17:02:00 -
[64]
Let's think about this realistically. If you eject a non-secure can, someone could come up and take something from it. HOWEVER, you should have the ability to fire on that person without cop intervention. It is assumes that the can is yours, despite the fact that it is floating in space. Realistically, if cops did show up, you could show them video evidence of the theft and the lack of communication from the thief to you to open the can. If the thief shoots back, that would be a hostile act of a THIEF, and should attract cops. The problem with secure cans and non-secure is there cargo size. They should be the same...not one bigger than the other. The present size of 'regular cans' (though we like it) is ridiculous. Of course, because of lag, I think it should be left alone. Saying that the purpose of secure cans is to prevent this is silly. In reality, I could come by in my indy and scoop the whole damn can into my bay. Who cares if it's secure? And tear it open later. The other ejection and near invulnerability of the secure cans is causing other problems: litter = lag.
Divine Retribution - My name is TerminusX, prepare to die. |
Kalhan
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Posted - 2003.09.10 17:13:00 -
[65]
Quote:
Let's think about this realistically. If you eject a non-secure can, someone could come up and take something from it. HOWEVER, you should have the ability to fire on that person without cop intervention.
Yes lets think realistically. you are comfusing jet-cans with non-secure cans. Both non-secure and secure cans you can buy on the market. And I do agree you should be able to fire on those that steal from the cans that you buy.
using a jet can as I explained in one of these many posts about ore thieves is like useing an ATM and as you take money out you dump it acouple feet from you on the side of the sidewalk or steet. The money(ore) has no link to you other then you are dumping it there. Now is you use a non-secure or secure can(the ones you buy) those have an ID that makes it your. Maybe they should change it so when you jet something it destroys it.
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