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Solas
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Posted - 2003.09.06 04:39:00 -
[1]
I am probably one of the guys in the minority who use armor based defensive ships on Tranquility. I am very excited about the upcoming changes on test. However, I would like to express my concerns with armor based equpments fitting requirements.
I feel that the fitting cost for armor repairers is too high compared to shield boosters. Here is the data from Tranquility:
--- Large Shield vs. Armor / Hull ---
100tf | 150MW | BASIC | Large Shield Booster I
90tf | 950MW | BASIC | Large Armor Repairer I
120tf | 250MW | BASIC | Large Hull Repairer I
--- Medium Shield vs. Armor / Hull ---
50tf | 12MW | BASIC | Medium Shield Booster I
50tf | 150MW | BASIC | Medium Armor Repairer I
60tf | 50MW | BASIC | Medium Hull Repairer I
Most armor based ships will be forced to use both an armor and hull repairer because armor damage leaks to hull. There is a double penalty compared to using shields. You have to use two med slots (in many cases you only have 4), and the fitting requirements are significantly higher.
1600 armor | -15% velocity | 60tf | 1600MW | BASIC | 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates
I am still not sure if reinforced armors fitting requirements are balanced. They are very nice low slot items. I would dare say they are probably one of the best reasons to use low slots. It would seem that med slot ships get all the handy utility items. Reinforced armor seems to be the only way in the game to make armor based ships true tanks. It probably is the only way armor based ships can stand up to a jamming ship and have a chance. I know the requirements are bout the same as a heavy weapon, but it might be worth it, I honestly am not sure yet. I just think that every armor based ship should be able to fit one and fill their other slots with decent items.
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2003.09.06 12:01:00 -
[2]
Are those 1600mm armor modules on the market or drop only? Amarr battleships have a huge grid, so they might be worth using. Especially if you go for close range pulse lasers instead of tachyon beams...
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Perry
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Posted - 2003.09.06 12:37:00 -
[3]
With the recent nerf of cpu-enhancers on chaos (photonic 7,2% now), an Amarr Battleship has not enough cpu to fit a good amount of turrets and armor upgrades. Of course you could left your medium slots empty... ;)
The good large stuff just takes away hundreds of cpu, amarr ships are gimped now... And of course there is no role play explanation why those damn reinforced upgrades take cpu at all? its just dump metal plating?!!
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Erick Thakrar
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Posted - 2003.09.06 13:14:00 -
[4]
Any word on why they decided to nerf cpu upgrades? What's the point? It's really starting to annoy me that so many of these nerfs seem so intentionally designed to **** the players off. What possible reason could there be for nerfing an item that severely? Especially one that doesn't have a direct influence on damage or combat. I would very much like to see an explanation from the devs. TomB are you listening? Not a flame, just a request. You guys need to be waaaay more open about why you do things and what you do. Take a lesson from Red Button.
Ya Hya Chouhada!!! |
Solas
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Posted - 2003.09.06 21:01:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
With the recent nerf of cpu-enhancers on chaos (photonic 7,2% now), an Amarr Battleship has not enough cpu to fit a good amount of turrets and armor upgrades. Of course you could left your medium slots empty... ;)
The good large stuff just takes away hundreds of cpu, amarr ships are gimped now... And of course there is no role play explanation why those damn reinforced upgrades take cpu at all? its just dump metal plating?!!
Here is an excerpt from the official post:
ôOther attributes that will not be penalized by this because they are not having as dramatic affect on gameplay:
Capacitor Recharge Time
Shield Recharge Time
Cargo Space
CPU Output
Powergrid Output
Structure Hitpoints
Armor Hitpoints
Shield Hitpointsö
I can not find any information on CPU or power grid upgrades being unable to stack. Hens, Aamar ships should be able to pump that cpu up a bit if necessary. I think that having such a high power grid is a fair trade off for having low CPU.
I canÆt find anything official on CPU upgrades being reduced, but I would not doubt it.
If we can confirm the changes and set up a nice technical proof that this will under power Aamar ships I am sure they will reconsider. Looks like IÆll be booting up test today.
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.06 21:51:00 -
[6]
Solas: Photonic CPUs are now 7.2% instead of 27.2%, so they are indeed nerfed. Lets just hope he changes his mind. 
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Nelia Hawk
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Posted - 2003.09.07 10:48:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Nelia Hawk on 07/09/2003 10:56:36
it was at 27%???????????
all other items like dammage (heat sink) or tracking have just a + of 7% or so
why should that cpu have 27%????
add 4 of them and you have alot cpu
i think its good to change them to 7% like all the other items.
btw this limites the use of 8 large guns on a ship (= alot dammage) so the fights are longer (what i would like) and a battleship dont explode after 2 shots from all 8 guns or so....
but its a topic about armor not cpu!
and i would say that armor should work like shields! = first you lose your shields then the dammage goes to your armor and when your armor is low (lets say under 20%) then you take dammage to your modules and hull.
so ships that dont use shields so much (amarr/minmatarr) and use armor upgrades instead of shield upgrades have a similar defence boost with armor like with shields.
so lasers would be less usefull to fight a armor based ship.
----------------------------------
some of my ideas:
Very Long Balancing Suggestion !!!
and
My Ideas for EVE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.07 11:04:00 -
[8]
Armor is generally more resistant to most damage than shields.
Armor hardeners use no energy to activate, as they are low slot items.
Shields are your first line of defense, so yeah it would make sense that shield modules are a bit more powerful. Shields are the strength of the Caldari, so it would make sense they use less powergrid, as Caldari ships have weak powercores.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Erick Thakrar
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Posted - 2003.09.07 13:21:00 -
[9]
This is very much a topic about cpu. Armor reinforcements use CPU. Quite a bit of it really. More than most lowslot and medslot modules. So nerfing the cpu's do have an impact on what you can mount in the way of armor. Personally I have a hard time seeing why this armor would require any cpu usage at all. The Energized Armors make sense but the regular ones like the 400MM armor reinforcements...Doesn't make sense from an engineering standpoint. Regardless if they're gonna nerf cpu upgrades then all ships will need a boost on their base cpu so you can still mount the gear. Or atleast some gear. Or they need to lower cpu usage on stuff like the armor upgrades.
Ya Hya Chouhada!!! |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.07 13:32:00 -
[10]
Quote:
This is very much a topic about cpu. Armor reinforcements use CPU. Quite a bit of it really. More than most lowslot and medslot modules. So nerfing the cpu's do have an impact on what you can mount in the way of armor. Personally I have a hard time seeing why this armor would require any cpu usage at all. The Energized Armors make sense but the regular ones like the 400MM armor reinforcements...Doesn't make sense from an engineering standpoint. Regardless if they're gonna nerf cpu upgrades then all ships will need a boost on their base cpu so you can still mount the gear. Or atleast some gear. Or they need to lower cpu usage on stuff like the armor upgrades.
Add seige launchers to that, 110cpu each. Ouch.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.09.07 14:16:00 -
[11]
Jim,
Would you like to see a module which boosts missile launchers ROF?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.07 21:39:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Jim,
Would you like to see a module which boosts missile launchers ROF?
No, I'd like to see the Raven bonus work on H-50 variants though. :)
I don't think launcher ROF modules would be necessary, heavy launchers aren't supposed to fire super fast.. with five low slots the Raven would be unleashing cruise missles and torpedoes at around 4.5sec.. with good modules (if they're simular to turret dmg mods).
Honestly, with turret dmg mod stacking being nerfed.. missles are fine as they are (on chaos).
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Ka'loor
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:43:00 -
[13]
But returning to armor, yes its freakish how a med armor repair needs the same amount of CPU and like 12.5 times as much powergrid......
Plus its stupid that armor plates need cpu and powergrid to be fitted, next cargo expanders need powergrid too....arg its really just another sheeting of some metal, tritanium or whatever on your ship.......
Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself.
Better to die with honor, than to live in shame. |
Solas
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:52:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Armor is generally more resistant to most damage than shields.
Armor hardeners use no energy to activate, as they are low slot items.
Shields are your first line of defense, so yeah it would make sense that shield modules are a bit more powerful. Shields are the strength of the Caldari, so it would make sense they use less powergrid, as Caldari ships have weak powercores.
Nice response. I have to agree with those points as long as Amar ships are able to be competitive with Caldari ships in the grand scheme of things. It is important if they meet in combat with configurations that take advantage of their strengths and equally skilled commanders that they both at least have a chance.
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Solas
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Posted - 2003.09.08 20:59:00 -
[15]
Quote:
This is very much a topic about cpu. Armor reinforcements use CPU. Quite a bit of it really. More than most lowslot and medslot modules. So nerfing the cpu's do have an impact on what you can mount in the way of armor. Personally I have a hard time seeing why this armor would require any cpu usage at all. The Energized Armors make sense but the regular ones like the 400MM armor reinforcements...Doesn't make sense from an engineering standpoint. Regardless if they're gonna nerf cpu upgrades then all ships will need a boost on their base cpu so you can still mount the gear. Or atleast some gear. Or they need to lower cpu usage on stuff like the armor upgrades.
Yes aamar ships strong poit is they have lots of turrets and low slots. If we cant take advantage of fitting those slots its not muhc of an advantage. Having us use high fitting repair devices that we have to use now will make it so we cant fit other slots properly.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.08 21:12:00 -
[16]
Note that armor and hull repairers are being tweaked on chaos to be more effective.
Caldari ships, which are supposed to rely on shields, have high medium slots, few low slots, and low powercores.
Amarr ships, which are supposed to rely on armor, have low medium slots, lots of low slots, and high powergrid.
Taking this into effect, I think that having the armor extenders and armor resist being low slot, and taking up a bit of powercore, is all right.
And I know the powercore for shield extenders is very large as well, so expect the armor extenders to also have a large powergrid.
As for armor damage bleeding through to the hull, there is a skill that supposedly decreases the chance shield damage will bleed through to armor, so possibly one could be implemented to prevent armor bleed tohull.
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Solas
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Posted - 2003.09.09 19:39:00 -
[17]
I cant find any skill that helps prevent damage leakage form armor to hull. Only one that helps shield to armor leakage.
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