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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS CODE.
73
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Posted - 2013.12.16 21:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Clem Fandango wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: the general idea is at a certain point when a ships shields or armor is taking damage, some of that energy is utilized by the ship to repair itself. At low levels, perhaps a dozen ships worth of damage that energy is negligible, perhaps providing 2% repair boosts but as the level rises the % rises.
So assigning 500 drones to one person and shooting one ship while everyone sits around would likely do 51% damage and 49% repair boost while assigning 50 drones would do 98% in damage and only 2% would be taken as energy to boost repairs. Amazing. How do you think of this stuff? Actually the developers thought of it (Capacitor Batteries reflecting energy back at the aggressor), in this case instead of reflecting energy, hardeners could absorb excess energy instead and increase their resists or something. The doctrine of bringing as many ships and firing at one person would not be as effective and the drone assist / slow cat / reinforce a region full of POS in a few hours would no longer be the only tactic that works. I think that might actually have the reverse of the intended effect if I'm understanding it correctly. Reducing damage from a blob setup makes reps far more powerful, encouraging the use of carriers and supercarriers, and penalizing more damage focused fleets. CFC's omegafleet would fail miserably under that change. I hate to disagree with you,-ábut there is nothing subjective about "boring" in connection to "mining". -á-á-á-á -- Solstice Project's Alt |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
12817
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Posted - 2013.12.16 22:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Diamond Zerg wrote:Hello.
I was just wondering, what scale fights do you think are the most fun in EVE? What are the most competitive (EG: one side can't just win by escalating by overwhelming numbers)?
Has the limit on that greatly increased over the years? Are we at the point now that we several hundred capital ships on each side to have an interesting fight, where one side doesn't just escalate and blow the other out of the water?
Is the strength of the EVE infrastructure now not strong enough to reach this limit, IE: as soon as both sides muster all of their powers, the nodes can no longer handle it and a crash happens?
If so, what are possible solutions to allow armadas to have competitive battles?
tbh if you're having a straight up 250 vs 250 (1 fleet vs 1 fleet) fight, then it all works pretty well as a rule.
1 Kings 12:11
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Sebastor Cane
The Outlet
127
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Posted - 2013.12.16 23:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
Eve really shines on
A. Ganks B. Login Traps C. One side underestimating there opponents D. Cynos E. Grinding Structures |
Fr3akwave
Space Road Truckers.
18
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: It's more the fact that he's using his mouse for everything, not following primaries, etc.
Same here... if i frapsed that, i wouldnt even upload it because i was so ashamed of bein that blatantly bad at following commands and using my input devices. I guess people like that still think they are "good". |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6979
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:21:00 -
[35] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's an experience in its own. Tidi sucks and sometimes the large fights aren't all that fun (often they are, though) but in the end it's still pretty cool to be a part of something that actually has broader-reaching implications for the game. lol@thinking big nullblobfights are relevant and have "implications for the game" outside of who has ratting rights in a system. Just because you're ignorant of null politics doesn't mean they don't mean something to a lot of people.
The collective outcome of these battles determines the direction of an overall war, which can mean the death of alliances on the losing end. TEST is relegated to faction warfare now because they lost the Fountain war and all of their sov. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Bel Tika
Dirty Rotten Scoundrel's
46
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:22:00 -
[36] - Quote
am i weird in preferring dog fight sort of things? say 10 v 10 over these huge scale battles? |
Alice Ituin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
The problem in null is that there is nothing to discourage you from fielding as many ships as you have available until the node crashes. Take wormholes as an example: In theory there is nothing preventing you from fielding several hundred slowcats,but it would take forever to bring them into an enemy's hole which greatly discourages node crashing fleet battles. In null you can just as easily field 200 slowcats as you can field one - just drop a cyno and say hello to TiDi. If CCP would fix that then we would see a lot more interesting battles in null instead of having lots of battle reports end with "and then the node crashed". |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
54
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:52:00 -
[38] - Quote
I prefer small gangs. 3-5 ships looking for another small group of 1-10 to pounce. It gets the heart pumping.
Sitting in a multi-fleet of shiny gold ships looks cool, but once engaged and tidi kicks in, all the fun is lost. Assigning drones to one guy who goes around one-click-one-shotting everything is not my idea of fun. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6982
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
Alice Ituin wrote:The problem in null is that there is nothing to discourage you from fielding as many ships as you have available until the node crashes. Take wormholes as an example: In theory there is nothing preventing you from fielding several hundred slowcats,but it would take forever to bring them into an enemy's hole which greatly discourages node crashing fleet battles. In null you can just as easily field 200 slowcats as you can field one - just drop a cyno and say hello to TiDi. If CCP would fix that then we would see a lot more interesting battles in null instead of having lots of battle reports end with "and then the node crashed". What would you rather have? A system whereby there's a fight and you try to join in because it sounds fun and you want to play internet spaceships but the game doesn't let you because you didn't get there in time? Yeah, that's totally the kind of game I want to play. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
54
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Alice Ituin wrote:The problem in null is that there is nothing to discourage you from fielding as many ships as you have available until the node crashes. Take wormholes as an example: In theory there is nothing preventing you from fielding several hundred slowcats,but it would take forever to bring them into an enemy's hole which greatly discourages node crashing fleet battles. In null you can just as easily field 200 slowcats as you can field one - just drop a cyno and say hello to TiDi. If CCP would fix that then we would see a lot more interesting battles in null instead of having lots of battle reports end with "and then the node crashed". What would you rather have? A system whereby there's a fight and you try to join in because it sounds fun and you want to play internet spaceships but the game doesn't let you because you didn't get there in time? Yeah, that's totally the kind of game I want to play.
I would rather have an environment where it is *possible* to field huge battles, but force projection is much harder so it is not as easy as simply using a cyno to bring in *EVERYTHING*.
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Miasmos
Aliastra Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
^ Force projection should be nerfed, it would differentiate guerrilla gangs from large blobs due to logistics and chain of command rigidity.
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Miasmos
Aliastra Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
The nullsec wars are an item sink. More explosions = more reason for industry = more reason for sandbox. War should be encouraged by all means, and the end result of wars can be a time of peace which kills industry, item value and the sandbox. |
Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
192
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Posted - 2013.12.17 16:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
I would opine that the current trend of single ship blobs that null sec is becoming (again) is NOT where Eve Online shines.
In pure numbers of players interacting, it's impressive- but the actual experience of those fights leaves much to be desired. Between hideous TiDi, node crashes, and the inherently brainless tactics that single ship blobs employ- it is a far cry from what is, at least in my opinion, where PvP does actually 'shine'.
My favorite fleets are medium sized 20-50 man gangs. Large enough to have all fleet roles represented, large enough to not spend it's time constantly running away- but very rarely does it trip TiDi, and while you can sustain some losses without having to call it quits, every ship still counts. This is where tactics and doctrines really get tested. And since Tiericide, has seen an explosion of once ignored ships becoming useful. Variety is fun.
When I started Eve, it was the days of there being basically three ships used in PvP- the Sabre, the Blackbird, and of course....the NanoDrake. Drakes as far as the D-Scan could see. Didn't matter that there were dozens of cool looking ships in the game, just fly Drakes.........AND IT WAS BORING.
Sadly, both N3 and the CFC have taken Eve two steps backwards by announcing that once again the meta is blobbing a single ship type and PvP being a matter of spamming F1. I consider that the single greatest proof of a broken mechanic in Eve- when blobbing one ship is so powerful that the only response is to counter blob with another-- that's broken.
There is a world of difference between big fights, and good fights. |
Prince Kobol
1209
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Posted - 2013.12.17 16:27:00 -
[44] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's an experience in its own. Tidi sucks and sometimes the large fights aren't all that fun (often they are, though) but in the end it's still pretty cool to be a part of something that actually has broader-reaching implications for the game. What would those broad reaching implications be? You get a pretty dot on a map in space and your alliance's name in a caption on the top of the screen... For the majority of people the implications are nill.
Yes you are completely correct.
CCP should do away with Low and Null sec, WH's, War Dec's, in fact any type of PvP andwe should all PvE because you know that PvE in Eve is amazing |
Prince Kobol
1209
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Posted - 2013.12.17 16:38:00 -
[45] - Quote
Alaric Faelen wrote:I would opine that the current trend of single ship blobs that null sec is becoming (again) is NOT where Eve Online shines.
In pure numbers of players interacting, it's impressive- but the actual experience of those fights leaves much to be desired. Between hideous TiDi, node crashes, and the inherently brainless tactics that single ship blobs employ- it is a far cry from what is, at least in my opinion, where PvP does actually 'shine'.
My favorite fleets are medium sized 20-50 man gangs. Large enough to have all fleet roles represented, large enough to not spend it's time constantly running away- but very rarely does it trip TiDi, and while you can sustain some losses without having to call it quits, every ship still counts. This is where tactics and doctrines really get tested. And since Tiericide, has seen an explosion of once ignored ships becoming useful. Variety is fun.
When I started Eve, it was the days of there being basically three ships used in PvP- the Sabre, the Blackbird, and of course....the NanoDrake. Drakes as far as the D-Scan could see. Didn't matter that there were dozens of cool looking ships in the game, just fly Drakes.........AND IT WAS BORING.
Sadly, both N3 and the CFC have taken Eve two steps backwards by announcing that once again the meta is blobbing a single ship type and PvP being a matter of spamming F1. I consider that the single greatest proof of a broken mechanic in Eve- when blobbing one ship is so powerful that the only response is to counter blob with another-- that's broken.
There is a world of difference between big fights, and good fights.
The number in a fleet doesn't matter, whether it be 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000 etc because the opposing force will always try and bring more then you as having more usually means greater chance of winning the battle.
The only way to make sure the opposing force is unable to contest a system/fight is to make sure that you fill the system with so many of your own force that if the enemy tries to enter it will crash the node.
You go out in a 50 man gang, the opposing force with come out with more, you counter, they counter and so on until one force is either dead / retreats or the node crashes.
The blob has always existed and will continue to exist.
Also people constantly going on about F1 monkeys, this has been the case for years in fleet fights and will continue to be, not because of any type of ship type / Fleet Doctrine but of the actual mechanics of Eve.
Eve is not Freelancer, X-Wing, Tie Fighter, Freespace etc where you have freedom of movement and real pilot skill is a major consideration of any space battle. |
Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
200
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Posted - 2013.12.24 21:38:00 -
[46] - Quote
Absolutely untrue, mate.
The blob is a two-fold issue 1) broken or unbalanced mechanics 2) uncreative and boring players that exploit them or lack the talent to counter them
Just yesterday my entire fleet of big, expensive sniper battle cruisers got blapped right off the field by some guys laying down a picture perfect bombing run on us. (Didn't get a chance to post a GF in local, so...GF to those guys). All the T2 large guns and logi in the world didn't stop two waves of perfectly placed bombs from gutting us in a matter of seconds.
Tactics, not size, not numbers. We left them an opening and they took it. They certainly didn't run away simply because we were a bigger fleet in bigger ships.
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Logical 101
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
42
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Posted - 2013.12.24 22:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
Just going to point out the obvious here. EVE has always been a numbers game, both in terms of math and in terms of force sizes. That said, no, blob warfare, capital warfare and the like do not impact the better sub-cap fights, just as they never have, because there is a special place for sub-cap warfare in high sec, low sec and NPC 0.0 that is there and always was... you just had/have to figure out how to find it and get involved.
EVE is still very much what you make of it, including what kind of PvP we engineer and subject ourselves to. Truth is, unless you're dealing with sovereignty, sub-capital warfare is still very much alive. And even in the old days of POS spamming, when sov was all about calculating how many structures you could throw up relative to how quickly you could take other structures down, EVE was a fairly even split between those who wanted into that lifestyle and those who wanted nothing to do with it. Frankly, from what I can see, nothing has changed in this regard. |
agora tarde
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.12.25 02:07:00 -
[48] - Quote
+1 above eveeyday lots or actual pvpers have lots of fun in no-tidi environment be it null low wh or hisec. blob groups stand out in the news but not in the fun. ask BNI guys how can they have so much entertainment whilst holding no sov no kb and no shiny. eve is about what you want not what others want you to believe that you want... even when you want to use a cap there are some nice ways instead of ****** sov holding in slow motion struggles. if you are a servant of a huge coalition chances are you are a toy for someone who's getting richer and richer with your efforts. yeah the players are the rotten part in eve not the game. |
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
136
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Posted - 2013.12.25 02:48:00 -
[49] - Quote
eve isn't about fun
The battles that shine in EvE are cloaked t3 cruisers sitting in a bubble ganking rookie ships. Those are the battles that shine in eve. http://evemouthbreathers.blogspot.com/
https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=29554516-05f9-4eca-a942-32e1701a6569&action=buddy |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1433
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Posted - 2013.12.25 02:56:00 -
[50] - Quote
I really like the fight where I declare war on some carebears, they put together a 20 man kitchen sink fleet and come and sit on a gate 1 jump out from my home system then me and 2 other corpmates jump into them in pirate battleships and warp in our twenty neutral guardians.
That's pretty much an optimal engagement for me. EVE needs more of those. |
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Katran Luftschreck
Stillwater Corporation
1774
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Posted - 2013.12.25 03:11:00 -
[51] - Quote
A casual observation...
PvE combat is all about endurance. Since you're probably alone and going up against a dozen or more rats all at once, the most important thing is that your ship can soak up absurd amounts of damage over long periods of time. Missions generally aren't over in two minutes or less, so you need to base your ship, your modules, and your overall strategy based on being able to simply outlast the micro-blob thrown against you. Things like ECM and whatnot play a very small part due to the sheer number of enemies.
Small gang PvP is (usually) the opposite, ergo: All about the DPS. Every tweak you can imagine to cram that extra point of damage in to kill the other guy first and we'll worry about repairs afterward (if at all). The battles are fast, over in under two minutes (or even one minute), and it's a completely different experience than regular mission PvE.
But once we get into the realm of carriers, bastion modules, and blob warfare, what happens? You're back to PvE tactics. Back to armor reppers, back to long, drawn out battles that never seem to end and a contest to see who can outlast the other guy. Again ECM and all that, while present, fall to the wayside - especially when all the ships either have huge base sensor strengths or are simply outright immune to begin with. People sit in place and chuck special effects at each other until one side or the other runs out of cap boosters, ships, or whatever and then either runs or collapses entirely.
So in summary, when people talk about PvP I think what they really mean is small gang PvP because from what I've seen of blob battles it looks a heck of a lot more like a typical rat filled PvE situation than anything else. Oh look, lock down, engage bastion, fire up the ASB/AAR, launch sentries, and see who runs out of stuff first. The hordes of little ships flying around between the supercaps ala "Star Wars" that you see in the CCP made videos? Sorry, have never seen than in an actual gameplay video.
Small gang PvP is like an ambush in the Vietnam War. Blob war PvP is like an 18th century musket battle. And somehow the gap between PvE and PvP tactics get a lot narrower, too.
Just my 2 ISK. Your mileage may vary. Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Remiel Pollard
The 0th Fleet A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2174
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Posted - 2013.12.25 04:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Case in point: If there 100 Abaddons on field, that Deimos fleet would have wiped. Numbers > tactics.
No, now you're setting parameters. What you're saying is, a certain degree of extra numbers is required to subvert tactics. The point is, the were vastly outnumbered and won. So the blanket statement that numbers > tactics is demonstrably false without a qualifier. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
210
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Posted - 2013.12.25 08:53:00 -
[53] - Quote
A blob is not defined by the number of ships, but by being a generalized collection of either identical or utterly dissimilar types- as well as an equally amorphous (just spam F1) tactical approach.
For example, that kitchen sink mess that high sec tried to bring to the last big live event was a blob. It lacked any cohesion or overall doctrine or purpose. It was more akin to a herd of sheep just following the butt in front of them and waiting to be told "shoot that', and hoping that sheer numbers will hand over victory.
A well organized and balanced fleet doesn't suddenly become a blob just because it crosses some arbitrary threshold of numbers of ships. 1000 pilots in an organized balanced fleet, is just a big fleet -but not a blob by any useful definition.
The term is abused to basically mean 'any fleet larger than I can muster', which is incorrect. |
ElQuirko
Black Dragon Fighting Society The Devil's Tattoo
2857
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Posted - 2013.12.25 11:02:00 -
[54] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Clem Fandango wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: the general idea is at a certain point when a ships shields or armor is taking damage, some of that energy is utilized by the ship to repair itself. At low levels, perhaps a dozen ships worth of damage that energy is negligible, perhaps providing 2% repair boosts but as the level rises the % rises.
So assigning 500 drones to one person and shooting one ship while everyone sits around would likely do 51% damage and 49% repair boost while assigning 50 drones would do 98% in damage and only 2% would be taken as energy to boost repairs. Amazing. How do you think of this stuff? Actually the developers thought of it (Capacitor Batteries reflecting energy back at the aggressor), in this case instead of reflecting energy, hardeners could absorb excess energy instead and increase their resists or something. The doctrine of bringing as many ships and firing at one person would not be as effective and the drone assist / slow cat / reinforce a region full of POS in a few hours would no longer be the only tactic that works. Quoting a stealth "Nerf archons for the good of EVE" post. Dodixie > Hek |
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