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Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
15
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 05:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello.
I was just wondering, what scale fights do you think are the most fun in EVE? What are the most competitive (EG: one side can't just win by escalating by overwhelming numbers)?
Has the limit on that greatly increased over the years? Are we at the point now that we several hundred capital ships on each side to have an interesting fight, where one side doesn't just escalate and blow the other out of the water?
Is the strength of the EVE infrastructure now not strong enough to reach this limit, IE: as soon as both sides muster all of their powers, the nodes can no longer handle it and a crash happens?
If so, what are possible solutions to allow armadas to have competitive battles? |

I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
812
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 05:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Diamond Zerg wrote:Hello.
I was just wondering, what scale fights do you think are the most fun in EVE? What are the most competitive (EG: one side can't just win by escalating by overwhelming numbers)?
Has the limit on that greatly increased over the years? Are we at the point now that we several hundred capital ships on each side to have an interesting fight, where one side doesn't just escalate and blow the other out of the water?
Is the strength of the EVE infrastructure now not strong enough to reach this limit, IE: as soon as both sides muster all of their powers, the nodes can no longer handle it and a crash happens?
If so, what are possible solutions to allow armadas to have competitive battles?
You must not have been around when those kinds of fights would crash the whole server, where even a fight of a couple of hundred would do in Tranquility.
And the best defense against nodes crashing is not to have these massive battles, but we all know THAT won't happen. Players blame CCP for the crashes, when it's the nature of the players themselves that is causing it. Sure, people say it's CCPs fault because they designed the game this way, but still comes down to the players choosing whether or not to do it.
And the fun fights happen with fewer people, when you don't really know if you're going to win or not. These spam fests that happen now days are boring. You know who wins by who brings the most ships. |

Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
15
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 05:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hold on boobies, with fewer people though, isn't there a large chance of an escalation?
EG: I'm the CEO of a 100 man corp, we have a fleet of 50 people against a similar sized group.
However, our enemies batphone a larger group and suddenly we are annihilated by a massive force.
Is the only counter to this to ensure that your own force is so massive that your enemy is not able to outnumber you significantly?
Is this part of the reason that our current bloc wars have so many people on each side? |

Leigh Akiga
Trickle Down Economics
373
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 05:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Diamond Zerg wrote:Is this part of the reason that our current bloc wars have so many people on each side?
This is the age of the capital as declared by Pandemic Legion where two sides can battle titanically for 8 hours and only a handful of ships die. Idk I guess 
|

Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
687
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 05:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Numbers and force always trump tactics and finesse.
Quantity has a quality of it's own. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |

Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1220
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 06:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
One day they'll wise up and actually make it detrimental to dogpile your enemy. Until then don't expect different results from doing the same thing. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |

Remiel Pollard
The 0th Fleet A Rather Intimidating Group of Individuals
2133
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 06:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Numbers and force always trump tactics and finesse.
Quantity has a quality of it's own.
I think you'll find that's simply not true. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6954
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 06:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
I cringed. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5310
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 09:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
terrible blobbers There are no goons. The goons; 0.0 dream is over.
Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action. ~NC., Fountain 2013 |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5310
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 09:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Diamond Zerg wrote:Hold on boobies, with fewer people though, isn't there a large chance of an escalation?
EG: I'm the CEO of a 100 man corp, we have a fleet of 50 people against a similar sized group.
However, our enemies batphone a larger group and suddenly we are annihilated by a massive force.
Is the only counter to this to ensure that your own force is so massive that your enemy is not able to outnumber you significantly?
Is this part of the reason that our current bloc wars have so many people on each side? no
there's a limit to how large you need to be, because above some amount the server will not handle it. so there's no need to match some group that has 10,000 pilots because they can't even cram half of that into a system. In fact, being able to put about 2000+ will keep you safe as an equal 2000 will be already making the best reinforced and tidied server suffer.
if it's a surprise and there's no reinforced node the bar is much lower, however you really want to be able to reach the bar for the most important fights on stations etc. Like a 6vdt event, about 4700 combined... There are no goons. The goons; 0.0 dream is over.
Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action. ~NC., Fountain 2013 |

Ruezer
Saint's Industries Brothers of Tangra
2
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 09:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
My favorite fights are 3v3 or 5v5 etc. small scale requires faster decisions than carrier blobs with sentries in 10% TIDI. Hell, I got owned by an Ishtar 4v1. I think fun PVP happens in situations like that. We got owned, but we had a blast doing it |

Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
689
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 10:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Case in point: If there 100 Abaddons on field, that Deimos fleet would have wiped.
Numbers > tactics. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |

Miri Draconis
State War Academy Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 10:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Players blame CCP for the crashes, when it's the nature of the players themselves that is causing it. Sure, people say it's CCPs fault because they designed the game this way, but still comes down to the players choosing whether or not to do it.
Dear lord in heaven, I hope you're trolling.
"CCP designed the game so that X is optimal, but it's the fault of the players if they choose to do X!"
Why don't you head out to the sov wars and try and build a spess empiar based on intentionally gimping yourself. Good luck. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
999
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 10:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Smaller fights are obviously better. In very large fights disregarding lag, ships really cannot handle getting primaried and the along with the lag they melt since by the time you realize armor / shields are dropping and RR is applied its usually going to be too late unless you're in a capital.
One solution to make people blob less or at least not assign all their damage to one target is to use diminishing returns based on damage.
This can also be applied to POS but the general idea is at a certain point when a ships shields or armor is taking damage, some of that energy is utilized by the ship to repair itself. At low levels, perhaps a dozen ships worth of damage that energy is negligible, perhaps providing 2% repair boosts but as the level rises the % rises.
So assigning 500 drones to one person and shooting one ship while everyone sits around would likely do 51% damage and 49% repair boost while assigning 50 drones would do 98% in damage and only 2% would be taken as energy to boost repairs. |

Clem Fandango
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 10:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote: the general idea is at a certain point when a ships shields or armor is taking damage, some of that energy is utilized by the ship to repair itself. At low levels, perhaps a dozen ships worth of damage that energy is negligible, perhaps providing 2% repair boosts but as the level rises the % rises.
So assigning 500 drones to one person and shooting one ship while everyone sits around would likely do 51% damage and 49% repair boost while assigning 50 drones would do 98% in damage and only 2% would be taken as energy to boost repairs.
Amazing. How do you think of this stuff? |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1015
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 10:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Clem Fandango wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: the general idea is at a certain point when a ships shields or armor is taking damage, some of that energy is utilized by the ship to repair itself. At low levels, perhaps a dozen ships worth of damage that energy is negligible, perhaps providing 2% repair boosts but as the level rises the % rises.
So assigning 500 drones to one person and shooting one ship while everyone sits around would likely do 51% damage and 49% repair boost while assigning 50 drones would do 98% in damage and only 2% would be taken as energy to boost repairs. Amazing. How do you think of this stuff? Actually the developers thought of it (Capacitor Batteries reflecting energy back at the aggressor), in this case instead of reflecting energy, hardeners could absorb excess energy instead and increase their resists or something.
The doctrine of bringing as many ships and firing at one person would not be as effective and the drone assist / slow cat / reinforce a region full of POS in a few hours would no longer be the only tactic that works. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6971
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 11:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
It's more the fact that he's using his mouse for everything, not following primaries, etc.
Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |

Ka'Narlist
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
87
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 11:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: no
there's a limit to how large you need to be, because above some amount the server will not handle it. so there's no need to match some group that has 10,000 pilots because they can't even cram half of that into a system. In fact, being able to put about 2000+ will keep you safe as an equal 2000 will be already making the best reinforced and tidied server suffer.
if it's a surprise and there's no reinforced node the bar is much lower, however you really want to be able to reach the bar for the most important fights on stations etc. Like a 6vdt event, about 4700 combined...
With about 500 archons and 200 supercarriers and 50 titans (add a hundred or so interceptors) you should be good to defend against 10000 blobbers.
well in theory the group with the 10k people could strike at 5 systems simultaniously while the one with 2k can only engange them in one. But luckly its all about the one climatic battle in one system at a time 
|

flakeys
Antwerpse Kerels Fidelas Constans
1661
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 11:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ruezer wrote:My favorite fights are 3v3 or 5v5 etc. small scale requires faster decisions than carrier blobs with sentries in 10% TIDI. Hell, I got owned by an Ishtar 4v1. I think fun PVP happens in situations like that. We got owned, but we had a blast doing it
I agree 100 % BUT those are fights for pure fun and you couldn't care less about the outcome as it has no deeper impact .As long as there is sov then fights like these have their purpose , even if at times it sucks donkey balls with tidi and node crashes .
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
6971
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 11:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
It's an experience in its own. Tidi sucks and sometimes the large fights aren't all that fun (often they are, though) but in the end it's still pretty cool to be a part of something that actually has broader-reaching implications for the game. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1015
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 11:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's an experience in its own. Tidi sucks and sometimes the large fights aren't all that fun (often they are, though) but in the end it's still pretty cool to be a part of something that actually has broader-reaching implications for the game. What would those broad reaching implications be? You get a pretty dot on a map in space and your alliance's name in a caption on the top of the screen...
For the majority of people the implications are nill. |

Charlie Firpol
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
58
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 12:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's an experience in its own. Tidi sucks and sometimes the large fights aren't all that fun (often they are, though) but in the end it's still pretty cool to be a part of something that actually has broader-reaching implications for the game. What would those broad reaching implications be? You get a pretty dot on a map in space and your alliance's name in a caption on the top of the screen... For the majority of people the implications are nill.
Yep, while 4k+ battles make nice stories and news, in the end thats it.
Not even an event like Burn Jita or Hulkageddon has much impact anymore, because the traders and miners learned how to deal with it. |

Lt Manshield
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 13:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:One day they'll wise up and actually make it detrimental to dogpile your enemy. Until then don't expect different results from doing the same thing.
ccp nerf friends please |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1015
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 14:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lt Manshield wrote:Sentamon wrote:One day they'll wise up and actually make it detrimental to dogpile your enemy. Until then don't expect different results from doing the same thing. ccp nerf friends please Nah deminishing returns of firing at one target would be enough. You'd have to actually fire at several targets instead. |

Charlie Firpol
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
58
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 14:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hmm. Just plain deminishing return feels kinda plain and boring. The reason why you shouldn-¦t be able to shoot at a single target with 100+ ships is line of sight. When you look at screenshots of big fights you wonder, how anyone can even shoot at anything without a huge amount of friendly fire. Obviously there is nothing that hinders you shooting someone directly through 10 of your friends ships.
A real line of sight would be an absolute pain for the server to calculate, but something like that would make it very interesting. |

Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
700
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 14:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's an experience in its own. Tidi sucks and sometimes the large fights aren't all that fun (often they are, though) but in the end it's still pretty cool to be a part of something that actually has broader-reaching implications for the game.
lol@thinking big nullblobfights are relevant and have "implications for the game" outside of who has ratting rights in a system. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
933
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 14:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Diamond Zerg wrote:Hello.
I was just wondering, what scale fights do you think are the most fun in EVE? What are the most competitive (EG: one side can't just win by escalating by overwhelming numbers)?
Has the limit on that greatly increased over the years? Are we at the point now that we several hundred capital ships on each side to have an interesting fight, where one side doesn't just escalate and blow the other out of the water?
Is the strength of the EVE infrastructure now not strong enough to reach this limit, IE: as soon as both sides muster all of their powers, the nodes can no longer handle it and a crash happens?
If so, what are possible solutions to allow armadas to have competitive battles?
Game must be changed so that single location huge battles are not the proeminent way of winning a war.
These battles should exist, but they should not the be main way to win a war.
If you want to knwo battle mechanics. Real life battleships like in Jutland Battle spreaded their fire as much as possible. They did not focus fire, because killing an enemy ship was a matter of hitting a fragile part of ship. The armor when inperviosu to 1 enemy shi wil be as well against 100.
But beign under fire of huge shells reduce the capability of crew to maneuver, reload, aim and fire. So spreadign your fire was importatn to keep all enemy ships as supressed as possible. IF one side focuse fired, it would loose the fight for sure.
But this would be a too huge change mechanic to eve. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |

Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
491
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 14:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
The age of the node rollback, where it takes 3 hours of the 7 hour fight for 100 commands to go through, then the node crashes and undoes the last 3 hours.
Watching stream was brilliant, but I feel bad for the people who play WoW, as they too know the dulcet tones of DBRB. Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages. |

Xavier Higdon
Wolfbane Hauler Inc
227
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 14:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's an experience in its own. Tidi sucks and sometimes the large fights aren't all that fun (often they are, though) but in the end it's still pretty cool to be a part of something that actually has broader-reaching implications for the game. What would those broad reaching implications be? You get a pretty dot on a map in space and your alliance's name in a caption on the top of the screen... For the majority of people the implications are nill.
With that view, things never have an impact on anything else. In the context of EvE, what is the point of playing if not to succeed? For many, succeeding means being a part of these large battles and a member of a Sovereignty owning corporation or alliance. If that's not your "thing" then the battle itself might be meaningless to you but the ramifications(mineral prices rise, ship prices rise, a sudden surge of Null refugees lands in your region) have the potential to totally change your gameplay. Wolfbane Hauler Inc Looking For Combat And Industrial Pilots |

Batelle
Komm susser Tod
647
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 14:28:00 -
[30] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's an experience in its own. Tidi sucks and sometimes the large fights aren't all that fun (often they are, though) but in the end it's still pretty cool to be a part of something that actually has broader-reaching implications for the game. What would those broad reaching implications be? You get a pretty dot on a map in space and your alliance's name in a caption on the top of the screen... For the majority of people the implications are nill.
Then why are they still showing up? Its enough that it matters to the people fighting. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
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