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Zero Neutral Revenge
Bleeding Hearts United
1
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Posted - 2013.12.18 00:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Several questions.
1) Which one of these ships would be considered end-game?
2) Which has the most tank? (Don't count Bastion)
3) Which can pull the most DPS?
4) Which would you choose and why? |
Paranoid Loyd
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 01:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
There is no end game in eve, only tools that have different uses.
Cap stability, tank and DPS are only metrics. Do not get hung up on them. Having the most of one thing means you are sacrificing something else. The game is about using the right tool for the job. |
Zero Neutral Revenge
Bleeding Hearts United
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 01:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:There is no end game in eve, only tools that have different uses.
Cap stability, tank and DPS are only metrics. Do not get hung up on them. Having the most of one thing means you are sacrificing something else. The game is about using the right tool for the job.
I am looking for specific answers, please. |
Paranoid Loyd
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 02:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Well, then you will need to give more specifics as to what you are trying to achieve.
Like I said, its about using the right tool for the job. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
59
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 03:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Several questions.
1) Which one of these ships would be considered end-game?
2) Which has the most tank? (Don't count Bastion)
3) Which can pull the most DPS?
4) Which would you choose and why?
1) prolly the mach / vargur in terms of difficulty to acquire and train, but not quite an end-game per se.
2) what kind of tank? Active tank? In terms of ehp/sec Vargur even b4 bastion on an active tank setup.
3) machariel has the best max dps potential
4) for what content? Level 4s? If you can only afford 1 I'd say the vargur, ewar immunity is nice, prolly won't clear as fast as the mach, but you can loot more. Plus the vargur was just rebalanced and the mach is up for a nerf. I have a feeling the mach will lose its falloff bonus, at which point vargur becomes a clear choice for pve IMO. Personally, I've got a mach and a vargur for L4s. |
Seriously Bored
The Strontium Asylum
19
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 03:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Several questions.
1) Which one of these ships would be considered end-game?
2) Which has the most tank? (Don't count Bastion)
3) Which can pull the most DPS?
4) Which would you choose and why?
1) Machariel and Vargur both qualify, if you're talking about mission blitzing.
2) The Vargur, hands down. (Even ignoring Bastion. EM shield resists.)
3) The Machariel (for now).
4) I use the Vargur. Though the Mach has a bit more DPS, the Vargur can loot and salvage an extra 5-11m isk/mission while speed running, which puts it on top in my book. |
Zero Neutral Revenge
Bleeding Hearts United
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 04:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Seriously Bored wrote:Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Several questions.
1) Which one of these ships would be considered end-game?
2) Which has the most tank? (Don't count Bastion)
3) Which can pull the most DPS?
4) Which would you choose and why? 1) Machariel and Vargur both qualify, if you're talking about mission blitzing. 2) The Vargur, hands down. (Even ignoring Bastion. EM shield resists.) 3) The Machariel (for now). 4) I use the Vargur. Though the Mach has a bit more DPS, the Vargur can loot and salvage an extra 5-11m isk/mission while speed running, which puts it on top in my book.
Thanks for the info everyone. Keep the opinions coming!
Do you happen to have an updated version of your Mini-Vargur Maelstrom fit?
I'm currently using a Maelstrom and I'm wondering how would you fit one today? Guristas are kicking my arse since they can hit me at all ranges and tend to all agro at the same time. I'm using a MJD/1400 arty fit. |
Sentenced 1989
Quantum Anomaly Corporation
29
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 09:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Several questions.
1) Which one of these ships would be considered end-game?
2) Which has the most tank? (Don't count Bastion)
3) Which can pull the most DPS?
4) Which would you choose and why?
1. In you restrict end game to battleships, Machariel prior to last patch, now Vargur.
2. You have to count bastion. And this one is complicated. Mach or Vargur with 2 bill dumped on tanking is 1000 dps omni tanked. Add bastion on Vargur and you either end up at 2200 dps omni tanked or you downgrade tank in value to about 500ish mill to get same number of 1000 omni tank which is MORE then enough by far. Then again, Maelstorm can get good numbers, but you won't be putting 2 bill ISK on Maelstorm.
3. Most DPS -
Machariel with gardes, faction ammo and implants will top out at 1450 dps at 60 km max range (falloff)
Vargur with warriors, faction ammo and implants will top out at 1250 dps at 70km max range (bastion falloff) or same range as Machariel without bastion.
Maelstrom will hardly get over 1000 dps.
But you need to to take into account applied DPS. Vargur can out dps Machariel by far. Why? Because you can't use Gardes always, and even though Machariel has 50ish dps more on guns alone, Vargur has bastion. You enter bastion and there is no jamming, no tracking disruption and no sensor dampening. That is a big game changer in any space other then minmatar for most cases.
4. Vargur.
After flying 5 bill Machariel around the space and having fun with it, after the patch simply can't ignore the fact that bastion Vargur fitted with faction gyros (200ish mill) and rest T2 modules can do almost same dps, track better, and be immune to ewar. Tank numbers are far lower till you get in bastion mode to compensate, but 1.1 bill ship doing the same job better then 5 bill ship is better in my book for that job.
|
Bobinu
Devils Diciples
League of Infamy
21
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 11:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree with Loyd, there is no end game ship, have to choose the right tool for the job.
Vargur is great for some missions, the Golem is better for others, not to mention fitting, as DPS is very dependant on the fit.
As per end game, with any changes that may occur the GÇÿbest shipGÇÖ is the one that does the job and is enjoyable to fly.
If your flying missions in a fleet that again may change the ship that is GÇÿbestGÇÖ.
IMO Vargur is great, nice DPS / tank ratio, AB fit works well, low ammo consumption (faction ammo costs are reduced which in turn improves the DPS for ammo cost). Turrets are nice for blapping frigs at range.
As per Loyd, need to define what you want to achieve?
lvl 4GÇÖs highest ISK per hour?
Quickest mission completion times?
Most fun per second!
Best fleet ship?
Best value? (less gankable)
Highest possible DPS?
Highest tank for survivability?
Least effort? (no swopping modules, omni tank, multiple damage types)
Be well worth looking at other Races / Ships, as for some missions having access to other ships is great. Doing Recon 3 in a slow BS would be painful, where as a tough MWD Cruisers would get in done very quick. DPS on paper is one thing, applying to the actually game is very different. You can get over 2k DPS from a Vindi, doesnGÇÖt make it the best mission running ship.
My advice would be get the Mael, try with Arties and AutoGÇÖs, figure out what missions suit each option including hardeners (even save the fittings, save you time manual refitting).
|
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
233
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 13:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm assuming from your other thread that the context is L4 missions?
I'll skip the first three somewhat-contentious questions and answer #4: I fly the Vargur. Plenty sufficient tank even with only 2 slots (though I reserve the right to add a third for some missions), good DPS out to the max range of the bonused tractor beams, great tracking, and with 3 tractors and a flight of salvage drones, I have the trash almost completely cleared up already by the time I pop the last ship in the pocket. No need to manage bookmarks and come back for the loot/salvage later. It doesn't satisfy everyone's criteria, but it's perfect for mine. |
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
290
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 15:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
I progressed from Mael to Mach to Vargur. I thought Mach would be my end game for lvl 4's, but the Vargur is just the best single option. Blap frigates down to about 12km with 800mm guns? Yes please. Hellacious damage, range, tank, AND the ability to sweep the wreck field as you go? Saves an insane amount of travel and mucking about if you're single account.
And then they gave us Bastion. Admittedly I was against it from the outset, because I felt the Marauders should be getting faster and more slippery, not sitting still. But it's here now, and it works well. Use the Mael as a stepping stone. The Mach has a nerf coming. The Vargur just got buffed. Use the Vargur for level 4's. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
665
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 16:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
1) Which one of these ships would be considered end-game?
Mach and Vargur
2) Which has the most tank? (Don't count Bastion)
How much tank something has is a function of how you fit it, and how much isk you spend on the tank. With their bonuses, vargur and mael have a nice boost to tanking, but that doesn't mean they're always the tankiest, if anything it means they are cheaper/easier to tank. All of those ships save the maelstrom have massive base HP, which is an important consideration.
3) Which can pull the most DPS?
Mach/Vargur
4) Which would you choose and why?[/quote]
Mach because its massive speed, dps, and base HP make it very easy to use. The enormous agility also means i would consider using it in lowsec/nullsec, something I would never do with a vargur. I also have both battleship skills at 5, as well as maxed drone skills (the mach can field sentry drones decently well).
I would choose the vargur if I wanted to use a marauder, because of its advantages over other marauders. Choosing it over the other 3 ships mostly is just a result of wanting the marauder functionality that those ships lack.
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Zero Neutral Revenge
Bleeding Hearts United
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 16:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
I keep hearing people say that the Machariel has a nerf coming.
Can someone link a CCP comment regarding the nerf and/or describe the incoming nerf to that hull please? |
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
290
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 17:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium mentioned it here. |
Zero Neutral Revenge
Bleeding Hearts United
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 17:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aeril Malkyre wrote:CCP Ytterbium mentioned it here.
I don't think that there should be too much worry... keep posting opinions they are helping me learn a lot! |
Paranoid Loyd
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
99
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 17:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:
I don't think that there should be too much worry...
Once you have a better understanding of damage application, your opinion will change. Especially in the context of lvl 4 missions. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
666
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 17:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aeril Malkyre wrote:CCP Ytterbium mentioned it here.
that was 10 months ago and before marauders got a massive buff. its possible the nerf will be very slight indeed considering how many testimonials I'm seeing from people that have replaced their machs with vargurs. Speedy ships like the mach don't get as much mileage out of the mobile depot either.
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
289
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 17:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:There is no end game in eve, only tools that have different uses.
Cap stability, tank and DPS are only metrics. Do not get hung up on them. Having the most of one thing means you are sacrificing something else. The game is about using the right tool for the job.
This isn't true. I bought a Machariel and within 30 seconds a pop up occurred saying "YOU WON"... Next thing I saw was credits rolling... It's amazing!  |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
210
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 18:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
The term "end game" doesn't apply to EVE. Go kill some people in whatever ship class you personally enjoy flying. |
Zero Neutral Revenge
Bleeding Hearts United
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 01:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:The term "end game" doesn't apply to EVE. Go kill some people in whatever ship class you personally enjoy flying.
That, imo, is wrong... I really don't think that people are flying rookie frigates in high isk reward missions or incursions or what ever else exists (in the end-game).
EVE has end-game content like any other game, regardless of how many options exist... back on topic now please. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
71
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 04:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:The term "end game" doesn't apply to EVE. Go kill some people in whatever ship class you personally enjoy flying. That, imo, is wrong... I really don't think that people are flying rookie frigates in high isk reward missions or incursions or what ever else exists (in the end-game). EVE has end-game content like any other game, regardless of how many options exist... back on topic now please.
The end game for Eve is PvP. It is by the designers own admission a PvP game with some PvE content.
That said, the PvE "Endgame" would be Incursions and the best ship would depend on the fleet comp of your incursion group. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
291
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 13:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:The term "end game" doesn't apply to EVE. Go kill some people in whatever ship class you personally enjoy flying. That, imo, is wrong... I really don't think that people are flying rookie frigates in high isk reward missions or incursions or what ever else exists (in the end-game). EVE has end-game content like any other game, regardless of how many options exist... back on topic now please. The end game for Eve is PvP. It is by the designers own admission a PvP game with some PvE content. That said, the PvE "Endgame" would be Incursions and the best ship would depend on the fleet comp of your incursion group.
It's sad that some people think "End game" is doing highsec missions in a battleship . There is no "End game" in Eve and if there was it wouldn't be in hghsec. |
Zero Neutral Revenge
Bleeding Hearts United
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 15:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
IIshira wrote:Lucine Delacourt wrote:Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:The term "end game" doesn't apply to EVE. Go kill some people in whatever ship class you personally enjoy flying. That, imo, is wrong... I really don't think that people are flying rookie frigates in high isk reward missions or incursions or what ever else exists (in the end-game). EVE has end-game content like any other game, regardless of how many options exist... back on topic now please. The end game for Eve is PvP. It is by the designers own admission a PvP game with some PvE content. That said, the PvE "Endgame" would be Incursions and the best ship would depend on the fleet comp of your incursion group. It's sad that some people think "End game" is doing highsec missions in a battleship . There is no "End game" in Eve and if there was it wouldn't be in hghsec.
Please drop this debate about end-game. It's a term to describe the things that players do during their careers. I.e. incursions, missions, null sec pvp... etc... that is all end-game. Back on the topic of my questions pls as debates about this, "End-game," stuff really doesn't help me at all. |
Seriously Bored
The Strontium Asylum
20
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 18:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
I'll try to steer us back on topic. 
Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:
Thanks for the info everyone. Keep the opinions coming!
Do you happen to have an updated version of your Mini-Vargur Maelstrom fit?
I'm currently using a Maelstrom and I'm wondering how would you fit one today? Guristas are kicking my arse since they can hit me at all ranges and tend to all agro at the same time. I'm using a MJD/1400 arty fit.
I'll freely admit, my BC fits needs some love and updatesGǪ those puppies are way out of date.
I really dislike the MJD for missions. The fixed 100KM is too finicky and puts the ship outside of its ideal kill zone too often.
For Arties, I'd use 1400s, an AB, Heavy Cap booster, Mission-specific hardeners, and a Tracking Computer with tracking script. Lows: 4x Gyros, 1 TE, but I think you need Republic Gyros to not go over on CPU. (Just off the top of my head.) Pretty sure you'll need 1-2 ACR rigs to make it fit.
Absolutely use Republic Fleet EMP/PP/Fusion with 1400s. It looks expensive at first glance, but it really isn't with those big slow guns. Use your AB to maintain about 30-50km range, group your guns in 2s, and shoot the small stuff first when it's coming in a straight line.
For ACs it would essentially be the same fit, but with 800s and a MWD instead of an AB. It's good practice for the Vargur, but I don't recommend doing it until you have T2 ACs.
That's what I've toyed with, at any rate. I'm sure there's some fine-tuning to be done. (I can't decide on the optimal rigs for the ACsGǪ I've been liking Semiconductor Memory Cells lately for the cap flexibility, but it's less necessary with a cap booster.)
Quote:Also, let's talk a little bit more about the Machariel. Has CCP said that they want to nerf it?
They do want to nerf it (link farther above), but no one knows when or how. The price has been taking a dive though, to the point that it's almost 500k cheaper than a Vargur. The Varg will be cheaper for the overall total fit, however.
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Robert Morningstar
Morningstar Excavations LTD
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
28
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 20:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Yes, end game is relative
and you miss a lot of other ships that could be considered end game
all carriers especially archon
all Dreadnaughts
all mom's
all Titans
all strat cruisers
depending on situation any of these can also be considered end game ships.
|
Roxy Everdeen
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 22:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:IIshira wrote:Lucine Delacourt wrote:Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:The term "end game" doesn't apply to EVE. Go kill some people in whatever ship class you personally enjoy flying. That, imo, is wrong... I really don't think that people are flying rookie frigates in high isk reward missions or incursions or what ever else exists (in the end-game). EVE has end-game content like any other game, regardless of how many options exist... back on topic now please. The end game for Eve is PvP. It is by the designers own admission a PvP game with some PvE content. That said, the PvE "Endgame" would be Incursions and the best ship would depend on the fleet comp of your incursion group. It's sad that some people think "End game" is doing highsec missions in a battleship . There is no "End game" in Eve and if there was it wouldn't be in hghsec. Please drop this debate about end-game. It's a term to describe the things that players do during their careers. I.e. incursions, missions, null sec pvp... etc... that is all end-game. Back on the topic of my questions pls as debates about this, "End-game," stuff really doesn't help me at all.
Wait you say to Ishira drop the debate but in the next sentence continue to debate it? That sounds like my wife... "Let's just drop this argument" is quicky followed by "I'm right" |
Zero Neutral Revenge
Bleeding Hearts United
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 23:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Let's say you're right now next post pls add something that gives me info about the game. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
60
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 15:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Let's say you're right now next post pls add something that gives me info about the game.
Haha I'll help ya out. Essentially this thread becomes pros and con's of the major mission runner projectile ships: the mach and the vargur.... Mach v vargur topics have been beaten to death.
In general, if you don't plan on looting and such, pick the mach. Otherwise go I'd say go vargur |
Zero Neutral Revenge
Bleeding Hearts United
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 01:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Zero Neutral Revenge wrote:Let's say you're right now next post pls add something that gives me info about the game. Haha I'll help ya out. Essentially this thread becomes pros and con's of the major mission runner projectile ships: the mach and the vargur.... Mach v vargur topics have been beaten to death. In general, if you don't plan on looting and such, pick the mach. Otherwise go I'd say go vargur
Thanks for the information everybody. |
To mare
Advanced Technology
295
|
Posted - 2013.12.23 12:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
actually the vargur its the one with the lowest paper dps of the lot.
under 20km both the tempest and mael outdamage the vargur (considering angel mission this is not unlikely), mach and typhoon FI would just outdamage the varg all the way to locking range. this is if you go with AC, if you go arty the vargur its just a terrible terrible terrible ship |
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