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Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:42:00 - [1] Yesteday in a nice fleet battle. the enemye force had a carrier nothing strange about that but the thing was he was inside a pos and his fighters still attacked us... Dont think thats fair that he can use fighters inside a POS when we cant kill him unlees we take down the POS first... Plz fix that or els people just gonna use carriers, Titans in fleet battle with no risk at all becuase they are in there own POS Not fair
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:44:00 - [2] Good idea. P.S. Why couldn't you just shoot down the fighters? They cost 20 million each, make him pay for them [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:47:00 - [3] Originally by: Dark Shikari Good idea. P.S. Why couldn't you just shoot down the fighters? They cost 20 million each, make him pay for them Becuase we had 50 other hostiles we needed to kill first and when that was done the plan was to kill the carrier.. However under the battle our covert ops pilot found the carrier but it was inside there POS. But his fighters was still attacking us..
JamesTalon	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:48:00 - [4] Also, they can't target anything outside the POS shield, so its not like a titan will be able to fire at you while inside one. But a carrier sitting inside one and having his fighters rip stuff up is a nice idea. http://caldarisurplus.2myip.net
Gonada	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:49:00 - [5] so whats your point? that the carrier pilot used the game mechanics he gets by assigning a fighter to a pod pilot, and attacking that way ? sounds like you guys were outgunned at the start and turn to whine when you failed. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:52:00 - [6] Originally by: JamesTalon Also, they can't target anything outside the POS shield, so its not like a titan will be able to fire at you while inside one. But a carrier sitting inside one and having his fighters rip stuff up is a nice idea. No is not a nice idea you can do that but it should be an exploit becuase you simply take no risk since you are protected by a POS.. Example you got 10 carriers and 50 bs and you are about to enter a fleet battle just get you carriers in you POS they will be safe but they can still used there awesome firepower agains the enemy.. Thats simply not fair and I hope the hardworking CCP team gonna fix that now i have brought this to there attention
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Gonada so whats your point? that the carrier pilot used the game mechanics he gets by assigning a fighter to a pod pilot, and attacking that way ? sounds like you guys were outgunned at the start and turn to whine when you failed. LOl go els where if you wanna smack m8.. BTW E-R dont fail we are just disppointed that we coulnt kill another carrier
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Gonada so whats your point? that the carrier pilot used the game mechanics he gets by assigning a fighter to a pod pilot, and attacking that way ? sounds like you guys were outgunned at the start and turn to whine when you failed. LOl go els where if you wanna smack m8.. BTW E-R dont fail we are just disppointed that we coulnt kill another carrier Agreed, Lunas. No smack in this thread. Using fighters from a carrier within the POS should be an exploit. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:57:00 - [9] "Dont think thats fair that he can use fighters inside a POS when we cant kill him unlees we take down the POS first..." It's no different from them sitting (or moving between) deep safespots while the fighters are assigned to other people and do the dirty work. In fact, you have more chance of taking down that POS, than finding them. It's just the way the carriers are. Kill the fighters, and you free yourself of the problem...
Ti anna	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:57:00 - [10] Before we go off half roostered, did you think that maybe the carrier was just there and was assigning fighters to the other combatants? From this point on, the cruisers, frigates, bs's etc, that had fighters assigned to them could use them to attack as needed. This IS a valid tactic and is well within the guidelines and the purpose of a carrier. Carrier inside shield, supplying fighters to other corp allies/pilots is a GREAT tactic and should be applauded, not moaned.
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Gonada so whats your point? that the carrier pilot used the game mechanics he gets by assigning a fighter to a pod pilot, and attacking that way ? sounds like you guys were outgunned at the start and turn to whine when you failed. LOl go els where if you wanna smack m8.. BTW E-R dont fail we are just disppointed that we coulnt kill another carrier Agreed, Lunas. No smack in this thread. Using fighters from a carrier within the POS should be an exploit. Thank you I just dont hope I have giving people ideas, hehe
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.03.08 18:59:00 - [12] Actually, thinking about it again, since one CAN assign fighters to any ship from a safespot, using fighters from within a POS shouldn't be an exploit. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Spokesperson	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Yesteday in a nice fleet battle. the enemye force had a carrier nothing strange about that but the thing was he was inside a pos and his fighters still attacked us... Dont think thats fair that he can use fighters inside a POS when we cant kill him unlees we take down the POS first... Plz fix that or els people just gonna use carriers, Titans in fleet battle with no risk at all becuase they are in there own POS Not fair You can take down his fighters cant you? Stop whining.
Rider Zane	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:02:00 - [14] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Yesteday in a nice fleet battle. the enemye force had a carrier nothing strange about that but the thing was he was inside a pos and his fighters still attacked us... Dont think thats fair that he can use fighters inside a POS when we cant kill him unlees we take down the POS first... Plz fix that or els people just gonna use carriers, Titans in fleet battle with no risk at all becuase they are in there own POS Not fair A carrier can assign its fighters to any gang member in the system. Thats how they work by design and if people utilize this feature then they are clever. The Carrier could have been at a safespot and done the same thing. No need to seek for things to be nerfed when they are working as intended. Why didn't you just kill the fighters? They're not particularly tough, and at 20mil a pop - sooner or later he would have stopped spitting them out.
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Ti anna Before we go off half roostered, did you think that maybe the carrier was just there and was assigning fighters to the other combatants? From this point on, the cruisers, frigates, bs's etc, that had fighters assigned to them could use them to attack as needed. This IS a valid tactic and is well within the guidelines and the purpose of a carrier. Carrier inside shield, supplying fighters to other corp allies/pilots is a GREAT tactic and should be applauded, not moaned. Yes he had assigned Fighter to his gang m8s ships but dont you see its not fair becuase the carrier is not taking any risk at all.. Arnt pvp suppose to put you ina risk zone where you can lose you ships doesnt that make pvp the fun is it today?? PVP = Fun becuase you can lose you ship.. This is just a win button with no risk at all
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Spokesperson Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Yesteday in a nice fleet battle. the enemye force had a carrier nothing strange about that but the thing was he was inside a pos and his fighters still attacked us... Dont think thats fair that he can use fighters inside a POS when we cant kill him unlees we take down the POS first... Plz fix that or els people just gonna use carriers, Titans in fleet battle with no risk at all becuase they are in there own POS Not fair You can take down his fighters cant you? Stop whining. Yes we can and we did but that not the point you cant kill the carrier so the pilot got nothing to lose except some crappy fighters
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Spokesperson Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Yesteday in a nice fleet battle. the enemye force had a carrier nothing strange about that but the thing was he was inside a pos and his fighters still attacked us... Dont think thats fair that he can use fighters inside a POS when we cant kill him unlees we take down the POS first... Plz fix that or els people just gonna use carriers, Titans in fleet battle with no risk at all becuase they are in there own POS Not fair You can take down his fighters cant you? Stop whining. Yes we can and we did but that not the point you cant kill the carrier so the pilot got nothing to lose except some crappy fighters Those "crappy" fighters cost 20 million each. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:05:00 - [18] Originally by: j0sephine "Dont think thats fair that he can use fighters inside a POS when we cant kill him unlees we take down the POS first..." It's no different from them sitting (or moving between) deep safespots while the fighters are assigned to other people and do the dirty work. In fact, you have more chance of taking down that POS, than finding them. It's just the way the carriers are. Kill the fighters, and you free yourself of the problem... True but atleats people get a chance to ***** the ss and then kill him
Wizie	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:11:00 - [19] As ghey as I find the new super ship ideas/implementations, I have to agree that once the fighter is assigned to a gang member, the ship should be able to go wherever it pleases. So a POS should be well within bounds. Kill the fighters and that should be sufficient.
Galk	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:17:00 - [20] I don't think the fighters are the problem here, it's more a we want to be able to kill the carrier... read the OP a little more closer. reference to no risk for using one, and subsequent replies seem to confirm that... we wanted the carrier 'another' one...... I spose it's a double edge sword here, either the point is we want the carrier if the opponent is using one (dead i mean) as in it should be open to the same risk as any other ship... though ofc with the carrier being a primary support ship... you could well understand it not being in harms way..... either assigning from multiple safes.. or in a pos sheild,,, it realy makes no difference as allready pointed out..... Or if the opponent wasn't using a carrier, i spose there would be no point to this thread, the 2nd edge of the sword..... pointless..... Carriers do what they do..... ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:17:00 - [21] Originally by: Wizie As ghey as I find the new super ship ideas/implementations, I have to agree that once the fighter is assigned to a gang member, the ship should be able to go wherever it pleases. So a POS should be well within bounds. Kill the fighters and that should be sufficient. Its simply so wrong pvp is getting more and more crappy each day.. POS shooting killing fighters??? wtf why dont you just make a new mod called spawn NPC generals and then we can all sit in a POS, spawn tons of NCP ships and watch them how they kill eachother... Irs gonna be so much fun:P
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Dark Shikari Using fighters from a carrier within the POS should be an exploit. I disagree. Here is my reasoning: It is an exploit to use dreads and BS etc from within a POS because they can sit behind the POS shields with zero risk and take targets out. These ships are made to be used in head-on situations. Carriers, on the other hand, are designed to have the ability to be 60 AU away but still be able to effectivly use their fighters by assigning them to pod pilots. A carrier could assign its fighters to a pilot or three and then warp between 20 pre-made safespots. You would NEVER catch him. Or he could sit in HIS POS. This is called using a carrier as it is intended to ber used. Another huge diff between using a dread from within a POS and using a carrier, is you cant target a dreads lasers and take them out. But you CAN target the fighters when they leave the POS bubble, and you can destroy them. It is completely fair. Take a look at this: Originally by: Lunas Feelgood ...Becuase we had 50 other hostiles we needed to kill first and when that was done the plan was to kill the carrier.. Whether the carrier was in a POS or at a safespot, your plan was to kill the 50 hostiles first. So why didnt you just kill the 50 other hostiles, then seige the POS and take out the fighters? Sending a few fighters at a big fleet is the best way to lose hundreds of millinos of isk with minimal damage done to the enemy. Once the fighters are dead the carrier, just like any other ship, would be useless. Also, if the carrier had no friendlies to asign fighters to, even if it had fighters it could not deploy/use them from within the POS shield. --- CCP should hire me.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:50:00 - [23] Originally by: The GoldenRatio Originally by: Dark Shikari Using fighters from a carrier within the POS should be an exploit. I disagree. Here is my reasoning: Read my second post--I agree with you. Didn't remember that carriers could assign their fighters to gangmates from anywhere in system. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
ToxicFire	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:51:00 - [24] To sum this thread up for those that don't want to read the ***** back... Someone got out thought, didn't get there carrier kill and is whining about it. And tbh that pure is it, your simply wanting everything in battle tbh be fair as long as its fair in your favour. There is no ship in the game designed to be an exact opposit to an existing ship the entire point of pvp is that you use every advantage you have to make it unfair. This wasn't an exploit the carrier could have been taken out if you took down the pos, if the fighters were passing out side the pos bubble which they most undoubtly were, they were vunerable if there are no fighters left the carrier combat you, ie it can be removed from the battle as a combat target. Roles reversed and if you had thought of it first you would have most undoubtably done the same, as would anyone with a brain for tactics. Or to simplify this concept if you knew the enermy had 50 ships would you take 50 ships or 100? If the answers 50 I strongly suggest your Fleet Commander Removes you from the roster
Asane	Posted - 2006.03.08 19:52:00 - [25] Now what good are POS if not for safety? Anyways, fighters are ships too, just whack them
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:02:00 - [26] Don' know how it works, but if you can reequip the carrier at a ship maintenance bay, then you could theoretically move out of the force field to start new waves again and again or not ? Could also produce new fighters at that pos. Funny. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Gismork	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:04:00 - [27] Edited by: Gismork on 08/03/2006 20:04:39 The carrier can also be in a safespot with his figther assigned to a pilot, he takes no risk, is it an exploit ? No. Same thing for a POS. Kill the figthers that's all. ++
Survivor X	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:07:00 - [28] Originally by: Snake Jankins Don' know how it works, but if you can reequip the carrier at a ship maintenance bay, then you could theoretically move out of the force field to start new waves again and again or not ? Could also produce new fighters at that pos. Funny. 20m a pop starts to hurt your wallet. ---------------------------------------
Spokesperson	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:19:00 - [29] Edited by: Spokesperson on 08/03/2006 20:22:19 Edited by: Spokesperson on 08/03/2006 20:20:34 Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Yes we can and we did but that not the point you cant kill the carrier so the pilot got nothing to lose except some crappy fighters You cant attack something inside of a force field. Carriers can send their fighters far away. Its game mechanics, stop whining! you remind me of that guy in the Ts movie with Tank CEO and Daakon a long time ago. (bah! Cant remember the correct spelling of gheyoons name) Btw : your crappy sig totally justefies not being able to attack ships within force fields. Edit : also, the difference between a carrier sending its fighters outside the force field and a fleet commander sneing his frigates outside is NONE! NOW STOP WHINING!
Asane	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:36:00 - [30] If you attack a POS, shouldn't it be major resistance?
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Spokesperson You cant attack something inside of a force field. Carriers can send their fighters far away. Its game mechanics, stop whining! yes, it is. and a year ago, game mechanics meant i could solo every level 4 in a raven when i had 3mil SP. doesn't mean it was right Originally by: Spokesperson you remind me of that guy in the Ts movie with Tank CEO and Daakon a long time ago. no, that guy was an angry, foul mouthed idiot who thought he should be invulnerable. the OP is a well mannered poster who doesn't think people should be invulnerable. Originally by: Spokesperson Edit : also, the difference between a carrier sending its fighters outside the force field and a fleet commander sneing his frigates outside is NONE! except that there is a risk to players in the second scenario, and it requires a large number of players to make it work. things that can be dangerous using a lot of players are good, whereas things which turn a small gang into an insta-pwn group are not sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:39:00 - [32] Originally by: Asane If you attack a POS, shouldn't it be major resistance? yes, it should. however, the problem is that they are not attacking POSes - they are engaging elsewhere in the system, and getting hit hard by a carrier sitting happily in the POS with (virtually) no risk to itself sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
Kaaii	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:45:00 - [33] You did state that there "50" Bs with the carrier fleet? Sounds like you were'nt going to kill it anyway, tbh. But as to the tactic, Its valid. Whats the difference if its in a safe spot or a pos? The difference is you didn't have dreads (did you?) to take out the pos. Did you know it was there? Think about the possibility? Probes bust safe spots Dreads bust pos Sounds like you just came to the party a little short on intel... "..Id rather fall beside 10 lions, than stand with One thousand sheep.." Tradeing 101
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Kaaii But as to the tactic, Its valid. Whats the difference if its in a safe spot or a pos? The difference is you didn't have dreads (did you?) to take out the pos. Did you know it was there? Think about the possibility? Probes bust safe spots Dreads bust pos the difference is that one good covops pilot will get a SS in under 5minutes. 8 dreads (quite a few tbh) would take about 30mins to kill a big POS. sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:52:00 - [35] Edited by: j0sephine on 08/03/2006 20:54:42 "the difference is that one good covops pilot will get a SS in under 5minutes." Between the vertical range of 'scan disk' on probes limited to 1 a.u, and them showing on the scanner which allows everyone with half brain spot them and move to another place long before they're tracked down? Don't think so... edit: When you have carrier sitting at the POS at least you know where it is, that it's not going anywhere and that it cannot support the fleet with extra repairs and whatnot, on top of the fighter wing bouncing around.
Kaaii	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:53:00 - [36] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Kaaii But as to the tactic, Its valid. Whats the difference if its in a safe spot or a pos? The difference is you didn't have dreads (did you?) to take out the pos. Did you know it was there? Think about the possibility? Probes bust safe spots Dreads bust pos the difference is that one good covops pilot will get a SS in under 5minutes. 8 dreads (quite a few tbh) would take about 30mins to kill a big POS. Assuming 5 mins per safe spot, what carrier pilot wouldn't have multipule safes? Who, with that many sps doesn't know 5 mins tops for covert to find you? Don't you think they would be moving? (I would). So the time argument really doesn't float. 5 safe spots = one pos dead with the dreads. Yes it takes time, time to kill a pos, time to make a carrier, time to bust safe spots. No one is supposed to have an "I-win button".....even you.. "..Id rather fall beside 10 lions, than stand with One thousand sheep.." Tradeing 101
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:06:00 - [37] Originally by: Kaaii You did state that there "50" Bs with the carrier fleet? Sounds like you were'nt going to kill it anyway, tbh. But as to the tactic, Its valid. Whats the difference if its in a safe spot or a pos? The difference is you didn't have dreads (did you?) to take out the pos. Did you know it was there? Think about the possibility? Probes bust safe spots Dreads bust pos Sounds like you just came to the party a little short on intel... The entire enemy fleet got anihilated by E-R forces.. and were were quite sure we would get the carrier until we found out that he was in a POS and then thought wtf thats just so wrong he doesnt take any risk.. Btw for those person that keep smacking pls stop this is trying to be a civil discussion go and smack in the corp and alliance forum and btw post with you main.
Sirkill	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:09:00 - [38] If you kill the all gangmates the fighters could be assigned to your take the threat of the fighters away, just as if you killed the carrier itself.
Zeitor	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:11:00 - [39] LOL this is the funniest thing I've ever heard. It's like you're whining because you wanted to shot someone that's hiding behind a wall. let's think real life tactics. If you're being shot at, do you walk out from behind the wall and into the middle of an open clearing with a bullseye painted on your chest and say "here I am I want to make it fair shoot me." OMG thanks soooooo much for the laugh. I vote this Whine of the month. :)
Trevedian	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:18:00 - [40] I agree with Lunas that its a cheap tactic... Get someone to have the fighters follow them into warp... Then web/kill the fighters when the person in the carrier can't see them. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:19:00 - [41] Also we know how carriers work and we knew it was prop at ss..But inside a POS thats just wrong. We have killed a carrier before who was in a ss but send his fighters after us.. however there is nothing worng there becuase ss can be found and he is not invinsible he is taking a risk and thats how PVP is if you used them there is a chance that you can lose it.. Scenerio.. An alliance wanna attack a sys.. they get 20 carriers into the sys build a large POS. and get the carriers into the Large POS.. Offcourse these carriers are all on alts so they are just afk but as assigned 5 fighters to each main who are in a steatlh bomber.. then you just wait utntil the enemy fleet and start killing everything in sys.. with 20 bloddy stealth bomber lol??? wtf E-R is getting carriers with all our alts right now in 1 month E-R gonna used this to a sys near you watch us its gonna be fun:P
Kye Kenshin	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:23:00 - [42] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Kaaii You did state that there "50" Bs with the carrier fleet? Sounds like you were'nt going to kill it anyway, tbh. But as to the tactic, Its valid. Whats the difference if its in a safe spot or a pos? The difference is you didn't have dreads (did you?) to take out the pos. Did you know it was there? Think about the possibility? Probes bust safe spots Dreads bust pos Sounds like you just came to the party a little short on intel... The entire enemy fleet got anihilated by E-R forces.. and were were quite sure we would get the carrier until we found out that he was in a POS and then thought wtf thats just so wrong he doesnt take any risk.. Btw for those person that keep smacking pls stop this is trying to be a civil discussion go and smack in the corp and alliance forum and btw post with you main. So basically you killed the fleet then were ****ed that the carrier used the POS for safety once all his support was gone? If i was the Carrier pilot i would hide in a POS if my fleet got annihlated too. Oh and this POS hiding tactic only works if your defending a system.
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:26:00 - [43] But aperently people like this idea offcourse they will its a win button... In 2 months time after a fleet battle.. Alliance 1 sitting in his large POS: heheh we won we killed 30 fighters:P Alliance 2 sitting in his large POS: rabble rabble you had stabs on you fighters CHEAT.. Its this what we want pvp vs npc ships that sounds really fun:P
Sebastien LeReparteur	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:27:00 - [44] 1. Buy dreads instead of Carriers. 2. <.....> 3. Proceed to destroy POS. Kill carriers. 20 carriers is a bit over the edge at that cost get one or 2 titan and take out the POS see above
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:36:00 - [45] Originally by: Sebastien LeReparteur 1. Buy dreads instead of Carriers. 2. <.....> 3. Proceed to destroy POS. Kill carriers. 20 carriers is a bit over the edge at that cost get one or 2 titan and take out the POS see above 4. while Dreads are shooting the large POS.. you build a new large POS 5 carriers jumps to another sys and then jump back into there POS.. 6.. the hole thing can start over with no risk at all.. 7. You have to be a moron to ever lose a carrier becuase with this tactics there is no risk
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:38:00 - [46] Originally by: Sebastien LeReparteur 1. Buy dreads instead of Carriers. 2. <.....> 3. Proceed to destroy POS. Kill carriers. 20 carriers is a bit over the edge at that cost get one or 2 titan and take out the POS see above And no 20 is not abit over the edge in 1-2 month every1 gonna have a dread or a carrier.. I know almost all our alts will have.
Kazender	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:41:00 - [47] Ok i couldnt be bothered to read all the posts in this thread but i read the first few and got the idea. Firstly I think it's fine that you can use carriers inside a pos shield .. this has many good side effects (in my opinion) for example it gives the advantage to the defending side ... you can't exactly use this tactic if you're invading enemy territory ... To the argument that pvp should involve risk .. well the carrier is risking something .. its fighters ... its more risk than turning up in a bs loaded with wcs. On a final note ... say ccp change the game mechanics and prevent carriers from having assigning fighters inside a pos .. the carrier could sit 1km outside the force field .. as soon as he see enemies warp in he simply flies the 1km into the shield .. you still have the 'invulernable carrier' problem, yes i am aware that someone could web it and carriers are slow already ... but carriers can have a pretty decent tank that could last long enough to crawl 1km especially when the pos guns will be attacking the enemy fleet.
Trevedian	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:47:00 - [48] Originally by: Sebastien LeReparteur 1. Buy dreads instead of Carriers. 2. <.....> 3. Proceed to destroy POS. Kill carriers. 20 carriers is a bit over the edge at that cost get one or 2 titan and take out the POS see above Dumbest reply EVER! You obviously haven't a clue what either Carriers nor Titans cost... Its a cheap tactic to hide inside a POS, but using POS's as a Super Secure Safespot is commonplace in EVE. Without the ability to do this BOB, and many other carebear alliances would fall apart. If you are inside a POS forcefield your drones should go limp, like they do when you activate a cloaking device on a carrier etc. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Sebastien LeReparteur	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:49:00 - [49] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Sebastien LeReparteur 1. Buy dreads instead of Carriers. 2. <.....> 3. Proceed to destroy POS. Kill carriers. 20 carriers is a bit over the edge at that cost get one or 2 titan and take out the POS see above 4. while Dreads are shooting the large POS.. you build a new large POS 5 carriers jumps to another sys and then jump back into there POS.. 6.. the hole thing can start over with no risk at all.. 7. You have to be a moron to ever lose a carrier becuase with this tactics there is no risk Large POS with gun is not an easy taks to install a small wing of stealth bomber could prevent it... or maybe you wanna have a you can't win all the time button with all your alts. Doing a seige to a castle as always been hard. But even if the guy retreated to another castle you still won that castle!
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:49:00 - [50] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Sebastien LeReparteur 1. Buy dreads instead of Carriers. 2. <.....> 3. Proceed to destroy POS. Kill carriers. 20 carriers is a bit over the edge at that cost get one or 2 titan and take out the POS see above 4. while Dreads are shooting the large POS.. you build a new large POS 5 carriers jumps to another sys and then jump back into there POS.. 6.. the hole thing can start over with no risk at all.. 7. You have to be a moron to ever lose a carrier becuase with this tactics there is no risk No risk? How much does a POS cost? Try onlining a POS while a huge enemy fleet is in your system, scanning constantly to find things to blow up. Another point, the bottom line is it is OK becasue the carrier risks what it is willing to use. Each fight is 20 million isk. If the carrier sends 20 out it risks 400 million isk. If the carrier wishes to use its energy transfer or armor repairing or anything, it risks itself. Why are you whining so much about carriers sitting inside POS when carriers already have a far superior way of avoiding destruction, which is warping constantly from SS to SS on a list of 20 SS. It is 20x easier to make 20 SS in a system than build a POS. And the POS can be destroyed. The SSs cant. At any rate, all is fair since the fighters can be destroyed the second they try to fight you (aka leave the shield) Why the **** are you still whining about this? If you had their fleet destroyed, why dident you just move in and take their POS out? What can a lone carrier with no more fighters do against a proper POS destroying fleet? Quit whining. --- CCP should hire me.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:56:00 - [51] Lunas Feelgood, YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT, PERIOD. Quit whining. --- CCP should hire me.
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:00:00 - [52] Originally by: The GoldenRatio Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Sebastien LeReparteur 1. Buy dreads instead of Carriers. 2. <.....> 3. Proceed to destroy POS. Kill carriers. 20 carriers is a bit over the edge at that cost get one or 2 titan and take out the POS see above 4. while Dreads are shooting the large POS.. you build a new large POS 5 carriers jumps to another sys and then jump back into there POS.. 6.. the hole thing can start over with no risk at all.. 7. You have to be a moron to ever lose a carrier becuase with this tactics there is no risk No risk? How much does a POS cost? Try onlining a POS while a huge enemy fleet is in your system, scanning constantly to find things to blow up. Another point, the bottom line is it is OK becasue the carrier risks what it is willing to use. Each fight is 20 million isk. If the carrier sends 20 out it risks 400 million isk. If the carrier wishes to use its energy transfer or armor repairing or anything, it risks itself. Why are you whining so much about carriers sitting inside POS when carriers already have a far superior way of avoiding destruction, which is warping constantly from SS to SS on a list of 20 SS. It is 20x easier to make 20 SS in a system than build a POS. And the POS can be destroyed. The SSs cant. At any rate, all is fair since the fighters can be destroyed the second they try to fight you (aka leave the shield) Why the ** are you still whining about this? If you had their fleet destroyed, why dident you just move in and take their POS out? What can a lone carrier with no more fighters do against a proper POS destroying fleet? Quit whining.** We play this game to have fun and we are never gonna shoot any POS.. Its the most boring ever and we are not gonna torture ourself..
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:03:00 - [53] Edited by: Lunas Feelgood on 08/03/2006 22:06:07 Originally by: The GoldenRatio Lunas Feelgood, YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT, PERIOD. Quit whining. No arguments?? dont you think to pvp wihtout any risk is a preatty good argument?? you say yea but they can lose there fighters. wow 20mil each yea thats a seriuos big lose for an alliance.. But anyway since im the only one who preatty much think this is so wrong.. We will just have to find a way to sploit this tactic to the extrem. Until it get change by ccp End
Trevedian	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:07:00 - [54] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: The GoldenRatio Lunas Feelgood, YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT, PERIOD. Quit whining. No arguments?? dont you think to pvp wihtout any risk is a preatty good argument?? you say yea but they can lose there fighters. wow 20mil each yea thats a seriuos big lose for an alliance.. But anyway since im the only one who preatty much think this is so wrong.. We will just have to find a way to sploit this tactic to the extrem. End Lunas rest assured you have a valid point here. But just like in RL, EVE is played by alot of people who comprehend very little and lack the ability to recognize a sound argument. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:08:00 - [55] Edited by: Equinox II on 08/03/2006 22:09:22 Btw, who gets the killmail if a fighter assigned to someone kills something? The guy in the carrier or the guy they are assigned to? WTB: Large POS and Amarr carrier btw. ;) Edit: And, yeah, I totally agree with Lunas here.. CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
Trevedian	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Equinox II Edited by: Equinox II on 08/03/2006 22:09:22 Btw, who gets the killmail if a fighter assigned to someone kills something? The guy in the carrier or the guy they are assigned to? WTB: Large POS and Amarr carrier btw. ;) Edit: And, yeah, I totally agree with Lunas here.. I tried this with my alt in a shuttle (Who wouldn't want to get a killmail while flying a shuttle?). Sadly, the Carrier pilot gets all the killmails. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:13:00 - [57] Another horrible argument. You play to have fun therefore you dont destroy POS? LOL? So don't attack people that have POS to run to. Or maybe get 20 dreadnaughts so it is actually FUN to take a POS down. Ever think of that? Big explosions = fun. Also, when did I say I think pvp with zero risk is not a bad thing? The alliance risks what it is willing to send out to fight you with. In the very least, as long as you fight your battle correctly, the carrier is going to lose hundreds of millions worth of isk in fighters. That is a real, measurable loss. If the carrier pilot makes a mistake, or you somehow find a way to force his hand, you might even destroy the carrier. Quit whining. --- CCP should hire me.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:21:00 - [58] Q: Is it possible for a carriers fighters to be fighting ships that are sitting outside of the POS while the carrier is sitting inside the POS, and there are no other pilots who are friendly with the carrier in the grid? If so, how? Q: Do carriers stay in space when you log out, or do they warp to a SS and disappear? Q: Is it possible for a carrier to use a jump gate? Q: How long does it take to generate a field for a carrier to use to jump with? And is there a beacon that any pilot in the system can warp to when the field is being generated? On which side of the "jump tunnel" is this beacon created on? Both? Or just the origin? Or just the destination? --- CCP should hire me.
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:25:00 - [59] Originally by: The GoldenRatio Another horrible argument. You play to have fun therefore you dont destroy POS? LOL? So don't attack people that have POS to run to. Or maybe get 20 dreadnaughts so it is actually FUN to take a POS down. Ever think of that? Big explosions = fun. Have you ever actually killed a large pos? Do you have any idea how long it takes and how boring it is? I've been part of taking down several, even some before they introduced dreads. I'll rather mine than shoot at a POS, and I really really really really really hate mining. The explosion is fun to watch the first time, that's it.. And, did you even concider that POS might have enough strontium to stay in reinforced mode for like up to one day? What's to stop the carrier for logging off, move to a different POS, or simply jumping out the system while you are shooting at the POS? Originally by: The GoldenRatio Also, when did I say I think pvp with zero risk is not a bad thing? The alliance risks what it is willing to send out to fight you with. In the very least, as long as you fight your battle correctly, the carrier is going to lose hundreds of millions worth of isk in fighters. That is a real, measurable loss. If the carrier pilot makes a mistake, or you somehow find a way to force his hand, you might even destroy the carrier. How can you possibly force a carrier's hand while he sits in his little globe of invulnerability unless the pilot is completely retarded? Losing a couple of fighters is nothing for most alliances tbh.. Originally by: The GoldenRatio Quit whining. No, and we also demand more cheese with the wine.. CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:29:00 - [60] Originally by: The GoldenRatio Q: Is it possible for a carriers fighters to be fighting ships that are sitting outside of the POS while the carrier is sitting inside the POS, and there are no other pilots who are friendly with the carrier in the grid? If so, how? No, he needs the help of for example an interceptor that can run outside the shield, lock someone fast, attack with fighters, then run back inside the shield. Shouldn't be a problem for the ceptor, since most things that could lock it fast enough won't be able to survive the POS guns. Originally by: The GoldenRatio Q: Do carriers stay in space when you log out, or do they warp to a SS and disappear? I'm pretty sure they act as normal ships.. Originally by: The GoldenRatio Q: Is it possible for a carrier to use a jump gate? No, they have a jump-drive, so they can jump to people in the same gang that setup a cyno-field (within range). Originally by: The GoldenRatio Q: How long does it take to generate a field for a carrier to use to jump with? And is there a beacon that any pilot in the system can warp to when the field is being generated? On which side of the "jump tunnel" is this beacon created on? Both? Or just the origin? Or just the destination? Beacon is created by the click of a button and you can jump pretty much straight away. Everyone in the destination system sees the beacon and can warp to it. Beacon is only created at the destination. CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:34:00 - [61] Originally by: Equinox II Losing a couple of fighters is nothing for most alliances tbh.. In that case, killing a couple of fighters is nothing for most alliances tbh... So whats your point? The carrier when sitting in the POS cna only use fighters. Incidentlly thats the very thing you can destroy. You kill what it risks. And if their pilot makes a mistake, you kill the entire carrier. No diff than if its warping from SS to SS. --- CCP should hire me.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:40:00 - [62] Lets say you have a carrier sitting in a SS. Lets say 1 system away you have a recon ship sitting in a SS fitted for generating warp points. What is the minimum time it will take for the carrier to jump to the system where the friendly recon ship is? How quickly do cyronus (sp) fields show up on the f10 map after they are generated? Pls answer all questions perfectly, answer each point, and go back to my other questions and make sure each tiny specific point is answered, not just 1 question in a 3 question block. (I'm just trying to gather information and perhaps clarify some points) Note to others reading answers to questions, if you see something wrong in someones answer, or see that the answerer is uncertian, please correct him. --- CCP should hire me.
Juki Lee	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:41:00 - [63] Luna, As with all other things in EVE-Online, the quickest way to get rid this tactic is to exploit it in some extreme way. The whining that hits the forums afterwards will be uncontrollable, and the Devs will cave in as usuall to the vocal minority.
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:47:00 - [64] Originally by: The GoldenRatio In that case, killing a couple of fighters is nothing for most alliances tbh... When losing fighters it's about having the ISK to replace them, covering a couple of mill is nothing for the big alliances. How does killing have anything to do with an alliance? Originally by: The GoldenRatio So whats your point? The carrier when sitting in the POS cna only use fighters. Incidentlly thats the very thing you can destroy. "can only use fighters"?.... What else can it use? Fighters ARE the carriers main and only weapons (unless you fit a smartbomb).. They do not have turret slots. You are using the main weapon on a 800 mill ship, but you only risk some fighters.. Originally by: The GoldenRatio You kill what it risks. And if their pilot makes a mistake, you kill the entire carrier. No diff than if its warping from SS to SS. OFC there is a big difference, a POS is a big globe of invulnerability - It can't be touched. The carrier pilot is 100 times more likely to make a mistake if he have to warp around all the time. Also, safespots can be can be found in other ways than probing, say that there was a spy in the gang with the carrier, the spy might be able to bookmark the carriers most used safespots, etc.. Let's take this two steps further. Titan! How about a nice shiny Titan sitting inside a Large POS unloading it's doomsday-weapon to a cyno-field in the same system? - No risk at all. Pretty nice huh? :) CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:47:00 - [65] "No, he needs the help of for example an interceptor that can run outside the shield, lock someone fast, attack with fighters, then run back inside the shield. Shouldn't be a problem for the ceptor, since most things that could lock it fast enough won't be able to survive the POS guns." Are you 100% sure or is this theory? To assign fighters to a ship, what do you do exactly? Is it clicking a button in the gang or dorne window? Is it targeting the ship and clicknig some "assign drones" button? What is the exact process? Also, if an interceptor leaves the shileds and then tells fighters to attack a target, if the ceptor dies will the fighters stop? Will the fighters automatically continue on to the next hostile target once they kill their primary target? How long would it take literally 20 dreads to destroy a large unhardened POS? --- CCP should hire me.
Juki Lee	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:47:00 - [66] Edited by: Juki Lee on 08/03/2006 22:53:26 Originally by: The GoldenRatio Q: Is it possible for a carriers fighters to be fighting ships that are sitting outside of the POS while the carrier is sitting inside the POS, and there are no other pilots who are friendly with the carrier in the grid? If so, how? The carrier pilot cannot target anything outside the shield while he is inside, so he cannot direct fighters to attack. Originally by: The GoldenRatio Q: Do carriers stay in space when you log out, or do they warp to a SS and disappear? When you log out, carriers warp off (if not scrambled) just like any other ship and vanish after a few minutes. Originally by: The GoldenRatio Q: Is it possible for a carrier to use a jump gate? No Originally by: The GoldenRatio Q: How long does it take to generate a field for a carrier to use to jump with? And is there a beacon that any pilot in the system can warp to when the field is being generated? On which side of the "jump tunnel" is this beacon created on? Both? Or just the origin? Or just the destination? Field is generated upon module activation. A warp point beacon is visible to all ships in the same system as the ship generating the field. It is only created at the destination. Originally by: The GoldenRatio Lets say you have a carrier sitting in a SS. Lets say 1 system away you have a recon ship sitting in a SS fitted for generating warp points. What is the minimum time it will take for the carrier to jump to the system where the friendly recon ship is? Jump is near-instant. The recon ship clicks to generate the field, then right after that the carrier pilot rightclicks the recon ship pilot's name in gang and selects Jump To Gang Member. Originally by: The GoldenRatio How quickly do cyronus (sp) fields show up on the f10 map after they are generated? Again, this is near instant. Originally by: The GoldenRatio To assign fighters to a ship, what do you do exactly? Is it clicking a button in the gang or dorne window? Is it targeting the ship and clicknig some "assign drones" button? What is the exact process? To assign control of a fighter you rightclick the specific fighter. On the rightclick menu there is a "Relegate Control To:" menu which shows all gang members. When you click one of those gang members, the fighter pops up on their drone control panel. Originally by: The GoldenRatio Also, if an interceptor leaves the shileds and then tells fighters to attack a target, if the ceptor dies will the fighters stop? Will the fighters automatically continue on to the next hostile target once they kill their primary target? The fighters will continue to do whatever they were last ordered to do. If the controlling ship dies, control immediately reverts to the carrier. If the ship they are firing upon dies, and the controlling ship is dead, the fighters will return and orbit the carrier.
Tar om	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:50:00 - [67] Not an exploit. The fighters are what is shooting you, and you can shoot them down. The carrier tactically worthless once you've destroyed the fighters.. so where is the problem? -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:51:00 - [68] Edited by: Equinox II on 08/03/2006 22:52:42 Originally by: The GoldenRatio Lets say you have a carrier sitting in a SS. Lets say 1 system away you have a recon ship sitting in a SS fitted for generating warp points. What is the minimum time it will take for the carrier to jump to the system where the friendly recon ship is? Like 1 second + the jump sequence with the fancy animation (a couple of more seconds) :p Not sure about the map updates.. the carrier can just warp to a safespot/pos or log or jump to another system before you can get there anyway.. CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
Marvel Master	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:52:00 - [69] Hi, if it not possible anymore to use a carrier inside a force field, i fly 10 meters out of the force field and use there the fighters. The Strong Guns from the pos protect me. If the pos has no guns, i fly in 10 seconds inside the force field and wait... Marvel
Golan Trevize	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:56:00 - [70] He he why didnt i think of that... The Gallente ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Equality will be met by the Amarr realities of Lasers, Armor and Battleships.
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:58:00 - [71] Originally by: The GoldenRatio Are you 100% sure or is this theory? To assign fighters to a ship, what do you do exactly? Is it clicking a button in the gang or dorne window? Is it targeting the ship and clicknig some "assign drones" button? What is the exact process? You need to target, which means you can't do it during the battle, but you can do it before.. or simply warp out of the POS to a deep safe, assign fighters, warp straight back. Originally by: The GoldenRatio Also, if an interceptor leaves the shileds and then tells fighters to attack a target, if the ceptor dies will the fighters stop? Will the fighters automatically continue on to the next hostile target once they kill their primary target? The carrier can recall them at all times, the ceptor won't die since he'll be back inside the shield within 3-4 sec Originally by: The GoldenRatio How long would it take literally 20 dreads to destroy a large unhardened POS? Depends on how much strontium there is in it, they way you kill a POS is take it's shield down to like 10-20% which will go really fast with 20 dreads, then you lose lock and the POS can't be touched untill it burns up all it's strontium. This can take up to a day. (I've seen something like 20 hours reinforced mode). The carrier is still safe and sound within the shield during all this time.. CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:58:00 - [72] Q: Is it possible for a carriers fighters to be fighting ships that are sitting outside of the POS while the carrier is sitting inside the POS, and there are no other pilots who are friendly with the carrier in the grid? If so, how? A: The carrier pilot cannot target anything outside the shield while he is inside, so he cannot direct fighters to attack. I know the carrier pilot himself cannot, but if you see how I worded the question, I asked if there is any possible way for the fighters the carrier controls to be fighting targets who are at the POS without any friendly ships on the grid (other than the carrier pilot). One person gave a fair answer, which I'm not sure is "real" or just "theory". He said an itnerceptor with fighters assigned to it could leave the bubble for a sec, have the fighters attack something, then quickly re enter the bubble. Thanks for the answers you provided --- CCP should hire me.
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 22:59:00 - [73] Q: Can a carrier jump to another system while it is inside a POS? --- CCP should hire me.
Juki Lee	Posted - 2006.03.08 23:03:00 - [74] Originally by: The GoldenRatio Q: Can a carrier jump to another system while it is inside a POS? Yes. I've tested this.
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.08 23:08:00 - [75] Originally by: Zeitor let's think real life tactics. If you're being shot at, do you walk out from behind the wall and into the middle of an open clearing with a bullseye painted on your chest and say "here I am I want to make it fair shoot me." OMG thanks soooooo much for the laugh. How does that even compare? In real life you can sneak around, locate the sniper and take him out. This is more like the sniping sitting in the middle of the road with a big white globe of invulnerability around him. You can see him perfectly well, no matter what you throw at him you can't hurt him, you can't sneak around him and surprise him. You could drop a nuke on him and he wouldn't care less.. CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
Nee'kita Frist	Posted - 2006.03.08 23:08:00 - [76] What if the Carrier was 3 sectors away at another pos? would it matter then. All it was doing in the POS there was lending fighter support? Cheap tactic, sure. But its a tactic and your fleet ops commander should've known when to back off to lure it out. I thought those fighers only had so much of a range?
The GoldenRatio	Posted - 2006.03.08 23:14:00 - [77] I've reclassified this whole issue from "whining noob rant" to "grey area." Eventhough a competant carrier pilot can just warp from SS to SS indefinatly. But in a way thats a whole diff issue. It is my belief that if 50 people are looking for Guy A who refuses to leave a system, tools should be in place for them to catch him even if he DOES NOT make a mistake. It should just be a matter of time. That thought belongs in a totally diff threat though. But the issue comes into play when you realize that carriers fighters can still be doing damage even while the carrier is warping around from SS to SS, which is about as "unfair" as a carriers fighters doing damage while the carrier sits in a POS. If you wanted this changed, make it so POS pubbles interfere with your ability to assign fighters to gang mates (and will retroactivly break links if your carrier enters a bubble). And also make it so a carriers drones dont function while it is in warp. Something along those lines. Or just leave it how it is :) --- CCP should hire me.
ReaperOfSly	Posted - 2006.03.08 23:58:00 - [78] Sounds like the carrier owners were using good tactics. He assigned fighters to his gangmates who were outside the shield and were themselves at risk. The carrier is a support vessel, no reason it should be out in the front line. Now it's up to the attackers to come up with a counter-strategy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Josclyn Verreuil	Posted - 2006.03.09 00:04:00 - [79] Just blow up the PoS, takes a whole 25 minutes to knock a large to reinforced with a proper fleet. Then another 20 after it comes out. Not a horrible time sink considering you're killing 400mil worth of hardware not counting any modules they might have anchored. The tactic has a counter, it is not invulnerable, thus it is not an exploit. ~Clan Verreuil
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.09 00:11:00 - [80] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Sounds like the carrier owners were using good tactics. He assigned fighters to his gangmates who were outside the shield and were themselves at risk. The carrier is a support vessel, no reason it should be out in the front line. Yupp, no doubt, it's the ultimate tactic since you can't be touched. Originally by: ReaperOfSly Now it's up to the attackers to come up with a counter-strategy. That's the problem, and the reason behind Lunas' post. There is no counter-strategy to this (except for killing the fighters, which you might not even notice during a big fleet battle). There is no way to get him out of the POS unless he is stupid. Granted, capital ships have been moved out of POSes before (by us actually, when we (conin, ass, snigg) stole a dread from PA's POS). We did this by using a bumpageddon from a neutral corp (their POS was badly configured and let the neutral in) and bumped the unmanned dread out of the POS. This took time, and there is no way you can pull of something like this to a active pilot. Especially not under a fight :p CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.09 00:13:00 - [81] Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil Just blow up the PoS, takes a whole 25 minutes to knock a large to reinforced with a proper fleet. Then another 20 after it comes out. How about ~20 hours, not 20 minutes, if it got enough strontium.. The time a POS can stay in reinforced mode isn't a specified time, it depends on how much fuel you put in it. CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
Galk	Posted - 2006.03.09 00:34:00 - [82] Well if we are talking about defence, presume we are, then your arguement about pvp is null. You seem to quote and answer the 'what abouts, and if's' Certainly not the inteligent and 'right' people answering the rants in the factual manner. Ofcourse those pointing out the safe to safe (which you probaly know and do yourself) are entirely right..... Risk safe to safe every other minute is non existant... But OP you keep beliving, after 3 pages realy wasnt needed, everybody cut the gist of it after the first post and first reply. ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Josclyn Verreuil	Posted - 2006.03.09 00:37:00 - [83] Originally by: Equinox II Edited by: Equinox II on 09/03/2006 00:18:44 Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil Just blow up the PoS, takes a whole 25 minutes to knock a large to reinforced with a proper fleet. Then another 20 after it comes out. Problem is the ~20 hours it can stay in reinforced if it has the fuel. You can bet that the carrier won't be in the POS when reinforced is over. This problem isn't a long term one, it's short term. Like during battles and imediatly afterwards. The carrier will just warp to another POS, log off, jump to a completely different system, etc if you take down the POS. Edited, as i kinda missread your post at first:) While I understand the frustration there, you're really wanting your cake and eating it to here bud. Carriers lose a good 50% of their effectiveness by hiding in a PoS in the first place. A well coordinated team of carriers can keep each other and others repaired quite well, and that is arguably worth more than the fighters to begin with. By accepting this sacrifice (which is admitadly not a sacrifice to many, because very few fleets are coordinated enough to make good use of in-battle repping), they cut themselves down in exchange for relative safety. As said before, a competant pilot without a PoS will be warping around 10+ safespots... in which case probing him out becomes impossible anyway, and in a way is even SUPERIOR safety wise to hiding a PoS, which can be killed. Anyway, as has been mentioned prior, even when hiding in the pos you have counters to the tactic, one of which will nullify the threat and cause a substantial financial loss (if you don't call 400mil uninsured damage for 20 fighters substantial, then meh. That's more damage than popping the carrier itself), one of which will force it to withdraw or be popped (engage the PoS). ALSO keep in mind, that the PoS tactic can only be used in a battlefield which they have prepped before hand. Anchoring/onlining a large tower takes around an hour (Havent done it myself, correct me here if I'm wrong), during which time it is completely vulnerable. This is one of the very few times where defenders have the advantage. Don't like it, make them engage in a different system. ~Clan Verreuil
Galk	Posted - 2006.03.09 00:46:00 - [84] Edited by: Galk on 09/03/2006 00:47:16 Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil ALSO keep in mind, that the PoS tactic can only be used in a battlefield which they have prepped before hand. Anchoring/onlining a large tower takes around an hour (Havent done it myself, correct me here if I'm wrong), during which time it is completely vulnerable. This is one of the very few times where defenders have the advantage. Don't like it, make them engage in a different system. / Quote: Why i called it defence, maybe lunas can't tell the difference between that and a ganking. Different set of rules, not about a few on a killboard, there's a pos... it has hitpoints, do that, then that, then that..... We couldn't kill the carrier, how many times do you want me to roll my eyes. Sorry but thats it, nutshell. ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Josclyn Verreuil	Posted - 2006.03.09 00:56:00 - [85] Originally by: Galk Edited by: Galk on 09/03/2006 00:47:16 Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil ALSO keep in mind, that the PoS tactic can only be used in a battlefield which they have prepped before hand. Anchoring/onlining a large tower takes around an hour (Havent done it myself, correct me here if I'm wrong), during which time it is completely vulnerable. This is one of the very few times where defenders have the advantage. Don't like it, make them engage in a different system. / Quote: Why i called it defence, maybe lunas can't tell the difference between that and a ganking. Different set of rules, not about a few on a killboard, there's a pos... it has hitpoints, do that, then that, then that..... We couldn't kill the carrier, how many times do you want me to roll my eyes. Sorry but thats it, nutshell. I have no idea what you just said. ~Clan Verreuil
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.09 00:56:00 - [86] Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil While I understand the frustration there, you're really wanting your cake and eating it too here bud. What frustration? I've not been in a situation like E-R here have, I simply think that a capital ship beeing able to use it's highly effective weapon systems while beeing 100% invulnerable for a day is wrong. Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil Carriers lose a good 50% of their effectiveness by hiding in a PoS in the first place. A well coordinated team of carriers can keep each other and others repaired quite well, and that is arguably worth more than the fighters to begin with. Yupp, this is true, but this can be countered by a coordinated EW fleet for example (carriers can be jammed, motherships and titans can't). Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil As said before, a competant pilot without a PoS will be warping around 10+ safespots... in which case probing him out becomes impossible anyway, and in a way is even SUPERIOR safety wise to hiding a PoS, which can be killed. This is the point where most of us disagree I think. My view is that: a) Warping from safespot to safespot: Very safe, chance of getting probed is pretty damn low if you just move around enough. BUT! There are more ways to bust safespots than probing. Let's say that one guy in your gang is a spy, he suddenly warps to you and scramble you, then leave your gang, join the other one and call in the boys :) b) Staying in the POS shields: Invulnerable for however long you have strontium in your POS. You see the difference right? From just beeing very safe to totally invulnerable. And you are also 100 times more likely to make mistakes of the ship losing kind if you have to move around continously than if you are stationary within a POS. CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.09 00:58:00 - [87] "This problem isn't a long term one, it's short term. Like during battles and imediatly afterwards. The carrier will just warp to another POS, log off, jump to a completely different system, etc if you take down the POS." I think you'll simply have to chalk this up as "defender's advantage" -- you are attacking someone with station in the system in question, and they are making good use of it. The obvious solution is to either bring in force and burn the structures down so they cannot be utilized (and yes, until this happens the carrier is free to take advantage of them) ... or pick your fights in systems where there is no such POS to take advantage of.
Josclyn Verreuil	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:02:00 - [88] Originally by: Equinox II Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil While I understand the frustration there, you're really wanting your cake and eating it too here bud. What frustration? I've not been in a situation like E-R here have, I simply think that a capital ship beeing able to use it's highly effective weapon systems while beeing 100% invulnerable for a day is wrong. Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil Carriers lose a good 50% of their effectiveness by hiding in a PoS in the first place. A well coordinated team of carriers can keep each other and others repaired quite well, and that is arguably worth more than the fighters to begin with. Yupp, this is true, but this can be countered by a coordinated EW fleet for example (carriers can be jammed, motherships and titans can't). Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil As said before, a competant pilot without a PoS will be warping around 10+ safespots... in which case probing him out becomes impossible anyway, and in a way is even SUPERIOR safety wise to hiding a PoS, which can be killed. This is the point where most of us disagree I think. My view is that: a) Warping from safespot to safespot: Very safe, chance of getting probed is pretty damn low if you just move around enough. BUT! There are more ways to bust safespots than probing. Let's say that one guy in your gang is a spy, he suddenly warps to you and scramble you, then leave your gang, join the other one and call in the boys :) b) Staying in the POS shields: Invulnerable for however long you have strontium in your POS. You see the difference right? From just beeing very safe to totally invulnerable. And you are also 100 times more likely to make mistakes of the ship losing kind if you have to move around continously than if you are stationary within a POS. By the same token of having a spy in the gang, you could just as easially have a spy in the corp to offline the pos, or a battleship to bump you outside the bubble. While I agree about the potential for making mistakes, no even halfway conscious pilot will screw up bad enough to get himself probed when jumping safes like that. In the end, a carrier being invuln really doesn't make a difference anyway as their ONLY way to reach out and affect you isn't. Either way, you're still ignoring the fact that the tactic has counters. You may not like them, they may be a waste of your time in your view, but it can be countered. It's not an instant win button. ~Clan Verreuil
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:08:00 - [89] Originally by: j0sephine "This problem isn't a long term one, it's short term. Like during battles and imediatly afterwards. The carrier will just warp to another POS, log off, jump to a completely different system, etc if you take down the POS." I think you'll simply have to chalk this up as "defender's advantage" -- you are attacking someone with station in the system in question, and they are making good use of it. The obvious solution is to either bring in force and burn the structures down so they cannot be utilized (and yes, until this happens the carrier is free to take advantage of them) ... or pick your fights in systems where there is no such POS to take advantage of. Yea j0. But people WILL bring a small POS with them for this sort of thing. And there aew ways to use a carrier, entirely safely, to aid a POS's defence while being inside the bubble and without any real risk to the other pilots involved. The entire jump drive concept is VERY badly handled afaik. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
HatePeace LoveWar	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:14:00 - [90] Shoot the fighters, and if your unable to due to opposition then maybe its a good idea to admit that you are not in a position to engage or you have to come at them differently, please dont whine about the game cos your not good at it.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:17:00 - [91] "Yea j0. But people WILL bring a small POS with them for this sort of thing." Very likely, yes. But to be honest, if someone manages to sneak a POS into a system where they intend to have a fight with the enemy, and actually online it there and then finally get their enemy to fight there... can only say, "gg"? Recon is part of combat. If someone fails to discover a POS _and_ a carrier in the system they are about to have a fight, optionally missing the cyno that allowed carrier to get there, to boot... heck, what room do they have left to complain, really -.o (might discuss the whole paradigm of carriers being able to have their fighter wings roam and kill people while the ship remains secure be it in deep safe _or_ POS ... but singling out just the POS and demanding nerfs is going bit far, i feel)
Josclyn Verreuil	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:26:00 - [92] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: j0sephine "This problem isn't a long term one, it's short term. Like during battles and imediatly afterwards. The carrier will just warp to another POS, log off, jump to a completely different system, etc if you take down the POS." I think you'll simply have to chalk this up as "defender's advantage" -- you are attacking someone with station in the system in question, and they are making good use of it. The obvious solution is to either bring in force and burn the structures down so they cannot be utilized (and yes, until this happens the carrier is free to take advantage of them) ... or pick your fights in systems where there is no such POS to take advantage of. Yea j0. But people WILL bring a small POS with them for this sort of thing. And there aew ways to use a carrier, entirely safely, to aid a POS's defence while being inside the bubble and without any real risk to the other pilots involved. The entire jump drive concept is VERY badly handled afaik. If they're bringing it for that, then shoot it as it's anchoring/onlining. Problem solved. ~Clan Verreuil
Galk	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:32:00 - [93] Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil I have no idea what you just said.[/quote Alcohol related, but yeah it stands, defence, seige... omg i wanted that and that alone, ccp don't cut the game like that anymore. One agenda, one mind, certainly not ccp's when it comes to current content, this ain't 2003 anymore. ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Equinox II	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:35:00 - [94] Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil By the same token of having a spy in the gang, you could just as easially have a spy in the corp to offline the pos, or a battleship to bump you outside the bubble. True, it works both ways, but there is a difference: a) Spy warping to safespotted carrier - No warning at all. b) Spy in corp offlining POS - 1 hour warning while the POS is taken down. c) Spy in bumpageddon trying to move your Carrier out of the bubble - Takes too long and wil be noticed. As I posted earlier, we did something simular against PA. It took TIME. Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil While I agree about the potential for making mistakes, no even halfway conscious pilot will screw up bad enough to get himself probed when jumping safes like that. Do not have to be probing, I've seen a lot of stupid misstakes done by even some of the people I concider some of the best pvpers in game over the years :p. Like warping into enemy POS when you were going to your own POS :p Also, people in eve tend to be very lazy, they reuse safespots - Safespots are passed down in corps. Way back when I joined xetic I got this bookmark-set which contained multiple safespots. Recently I warped to one of these in my covert-ops, behold.. It was actually used by a small ASCN fleet - Safespot must have been 2-3 years old. Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil In the end, a carrier being invuln really doesn't make a difference anyway as their ONLY way to reach out and affect you isn't. Either way, you're still ignoring the fact that the tactic has counters. You may not like them, they may be a waste of your time in your view, but it can be countered. It's not an instant win button. Sure, you can shoot down the fighters, but what's stopping him from spewing out more and more (just sneak 5m outside the shield, assign them, go back in, grab new drones in the POS hangar). Losing a couple of sets of drones might be a small price if it can turn the tide of a battle. Whenever a set dies you can just spew out a new one - It's like having your pod-pilots right back in ships and into the battle when they die. You're from the alliance i concider the richest in game, what do you think is worse: a) Losing fighters for many 100 mill, maybe even more than the worth of a carrier, but maybe win the battle. Win, but for a higher ISK price than it would have been to lose. b) Losing the carrier and maybe losing the battle. Maybe lower ISK loss, but you also lost the battle. Obvious solution to this would be to have the fighters automatically recalled to the carrier when it entered the pos shield. (maybe have a small buffer-zone around the pos shield too that somehow creates interference with fighter-control) CCP Hammer > Next patch we will make sure to boost Amarr and Nerf Caldari.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.09 01:55:00 - [95] Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: j0sephine "This problem isn't a long term one, it's short term. Like during battles and imediatly afterwards. The carrier will just warp to another POS, log off, jump to a completely different system, etc if you take down the POS." I think you'll simply have to chalk this up as "defender's advantage" -- you are attacking someone with station in the system in question, and they are making good use of it. The obvious solution is to either bring in force and burn the structures down so they cannot be utilized (and yes, until this happens the carrier is free to take advantage of them) ... or pick your fights in systems where there is no such POS to take advantage of. Yea j0. But people WILL bring a small POS with them for this sort of thing. And there aew ways to use a carrier, entirely safely, to aid a POS's defence while being inside the bubble and without any real risk to the other pilots involved. The entire jump drive concept is VERY badly handled afaik. If they're bringing it for that, then shoot it as it's anchoring/onlining. Problem solved. Heh. And the magic tool you'll use to watch all the moons in a system is? (remembering the size of many 0.0 systems) Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:04:00 - [96] Originally by: HatePeace LoveWar Shoot the fighters, and if your unable to due to opposition then maybe its a good idea to admit that you are not in a position to engage or you have to come at them differently, please dont whine about the game cos your not good at it. Stop you pathetic smack go on the corp and alliance forum where it belongs.. This thread is good and there is a nice discussion btw could you ask you mum when puberty start so you will be rdy for it??
MENTALMerchant	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:04:00 - [97] Honestly, if the carrier was sitting in a deep safe spot any you did not have a covert ops pilot. Would it honestly be different then having the carrier sit in a POS? Also, would it be different having a carrier right outside the shields of a death star POS? Would you even survive trying to engage it without having dreadnoughts? Now here is a little story.. Last time I spent some time playing with a carrier pilot in a choke point system. We went up against heavy odds once people saw the fighters but the carrier wasn't even touched since it kept bouncing between safe spots while the people with the fighters did the attacking. Having a carrier sit inside or directly outside a POS is a valid tactic and the only reason why you couldn't kill it is because you did NOT have the appropriate equipment and numbers to do the job. Anyways, - MENTAL
Stratosfear	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:06:00 - [98] Seems like a sound defensive tactic. Nothing to see here but a baby with no killmail.
Lunas Feelgood	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:08:00 - [99] Originally by: MENTALMerchant Honestly, if the carrier was sitting in a deep safe spot any you did not have a covert ops pilot. Would it honestly be different then having the carrier sit in a POS? Also, would it be different having a carrier right outside the shields of a death star POS? Would you even survive trying to engage it without having dreadnoughts? Now here is a little story.. Last time I spent some time playing with a carrier pilot in a choke point system. We went up against heavy odds once people saw the fighters but the carrier wasn't even touched since it kept bouncing between safe spots while the people with the fighters did the attacking. Having a carrier sit inside or directly outside a POS is a valid tactic and the only reason why you couldn't kill it is because you did NOT have the appropriate equipment and numbers to do the job. Anyways, - MENTAL Yest its a valid tactic the games alowed it. I just think its wrong.. Have any1 thought about when pirats in low space gonna use this tactics.. Just get there carriers in there POS and assinged the fighters lol pirats gonna have some nice times
Josclyn Verreuil	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:23:00 - [100] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: HatePeace LoveWar Shoot the fighters, and if your unable to due to opposition then maybe its a good idea to admit that you are not in a position to engage or you have to come at them differently, please dont whine about the game cos your not good at it. Stop you pathetic smack go on the corp and alliance forum where it belongs.. This thread is good and there is a nice discussion btw could you ask you mum when puberty start so you will be rdy for it?? Way to go with the "Stop the smack" followed by a blatant and completely irrelevant Ad Hom. Bravo Lunas. ~Clan Verreuil
Josclyn Verreuil	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:36:00 - [101] Originally by: Equinox II Edited by: Equinox II on 09/03/2006 01:42:37 Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil By the same token of having a spy in the gang, you could just as easially have a spy in the corp to offline the pos, or a battleship to bump you outside the bubble. True, it works both ways, but there is a difference: a) Spy warping to safespotted carrier - No warning at all. b) Spy in corp offlining POS - 1 hour warning while the POS is taken down. c) Spy in bumpageddon trying to move your Carrier out of the bubble - Takes too long and wil be noticed. As I posted earlier, we did something simular against PA. It took TIME. Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil While I agree about the potential for making mistakes, no even halfway conscious pilot will screw up bad enough to get himself probed when jumping safes like that. Do not have to be probing, I've seen a lot of stupid misstakes done by even some of the people I concider some of the best pvpers in game over the years :p. Like warping into enemy POS when you were going to your own POS :p Also, people in eve tend to be very lazy, they reuse safespots - Safespots are passed down in corps. Way back when I joined xetic I got this bookmark-set which contained multiple safespots. Recently I warped to one of these in my covert-ops, behold.. It was actually used by a small ASCN fleet - Safespot must have been 2-3 years old. Originally by: Josclyn Verreuil In the end, a carrier being invuln really doesn't make a difference anyway as their ONLY way to reach out and affect you isn't. Either way, you're still ignoring the fact that the tactic has counters. You may not like them, they may be a waste of your time in your view, but it can be countered. It's not an instant win button. Sure, you can shoot down the fighters, but what's stopping him from spewing out more and more (just sneak 5m outside the shield, assign them, go back in, grab new drones in the POS hangar). Losing a couple of sets of drones might be a small price if it can turn the tide of a battle. Whenever a set dies you can just spew out a new one - It's like having your pod-pilots right back in ships and into the battle when they die. The time it takes to shoot down a fighter is time not used shooting at a real player ship. You might lose a 20 mill fighter, but you might save a 100 mill hac that would have died in it's place. You're from the alliance i concider the richest in game, what do you think is worse: a) Losing fighters for many 100 mill, maybe even more than the worth of a carrier, but maybe win the battle. Win, but for a higher ISK price than it would have been to lose. b) Losing the carrier and maybe losing the battle. Maybe lower ISK loss, but you also lost the battle. Obvious solution to this would be to have the fighters automatically recalled to the carrier when it entered the pos shield. (maybe have a small buffer-zone around the pos shield too that somehow creates interference with fighter-control) A number of good points, but I still have to disagree overall. Too lazy to quote in sections so will just adress your post in order. First, as to the spys. Sure it's easier to place one in gang and have a gang warp in, but in general if you have a well placed spy, it will die at one point or another. This really doesn't warrent changing a mechanic alone. The safespots/laziness. Yeah again I agree. But again, liklihood of player error isn't a significant enough reason to change something like this. It doesn't define an exploit at all. The "kill fighters" etc bit. Sure, you can resupply them constantly. But by the same token if you have that much extra hardware laying around, you might as well have an extra carrier in the first place so the whole argument goes moot. I still stand by the fact that it's really not worth changing until there are no effective counters to it. As of now, you can either pop the fighters, or kill the pos. Or just avoid the prepped system to begin with. ~Clan Verreuil
Princess Jodi	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:43:00 - [102] 20 Million ISK Fighters are more risk than most Cruisers. Since when was there a limit or minimum on what should be risked in battle? Besides, this tactic requires 4 Billion or more investment, and can only take place in defense. It is a valid and ingenious use of ISK and ship capabilities.
MENTALMerchant	Posted - 2006.03.09 04:59:00 - [103] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: MENTALMerchant Honestly, if the carrier was sitting in a deep safe spot any you did not have a covert ops pilot. Would it honestly be different then having the carrier sit in a POS? Also, would it be different having a carrier right outside the shields of a death star POS? Would you even survive trying to engage it without having dreadnoughts? Now here is a little story.. Last time I spent some time playing with a carrier pilot in a choke point system. We went up against heavy odds once people saw the fighters but the carrier wasn't even touched since it kept bouncing between safe spots while the people with the fighters did the attacking. Having a carrier sit inside or directly outside a POS is a valid tactic and the only reason why you couldn't kill it is because you did NOT have the appropriate equipment and numbers to do the job. Anyways, - MENTAL Yest its a valid tactic the games alowed it. I just think its wrong.. Have any1 thought about when pirats in low space gonna use this tactics.. Just get there carriers in there POS and assinged the fighters lol pirats gonna have some nice times lol, someone will try it but I think the sentry guns will *****the fighters. From the last encounter in Passari I can remember there was a person using a dominix with drones and they didn't last too long against the guns. The difference will be the first time someone tries it I have the feeling they will feel the 20 mill isk per drone. :) - MENTAL
Cathryn Wolve	Posted - 2006.03.09 05:12:00 - [104] Valid tactic. Once the fighters are assigned to gang members who they attack form there is fair game. End of story. This is not, nor should it be an explot.......and I plan to use it soon
Cersei	Posted - 2006.03.09 05:20:00 - [105] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Ti anna Before we go off half roostered, did you think that maybe the carrier was just there and was assigning fighters to the other combatants? From this point on, the cruisers, frigates, bs's etc, that had fighters assigned to them could use them to attack as needed. This IS a valid tactic and is well within the guidelines and the purpose of a carrier. Carrier inside shield, supplying fighters to other corp allies/pilots is a GREAT tactic and should be applauded, not moaned. Yes he had assigned Fighter to his gang m8s ships but dont you see its not fair becuase the carrier is not taking any risk at all.. Arnt pvp suppose to put you ina risk zone where you can lose you ships doesnt that make pvp the fun is it today?? PVP = Fun becuase you can lose you ship.. This is just a win button with no risk at all It's how carriers work dullwit. How is that any different from sitting at a safe spot cloaked?
Valkazm	Posted - 2006.03.09 05:35:00 - [106] sounds like a big whine thread
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.03.09 07:28:00 - [107] Originally by: Zeitor LOL this is the funniest thing I've ever heard. It's like you're whining because you wanted to shot someone that's hiding behind a wall. let's think real life tactics. If you're being shot at, do you walk out from behind the wall and into the middle of an open clearing with a bullseye painted on your chest and say "here I am I want to make it fair shoot me." OMG thanks soooooo much for the laugh. I vote this Whine of the month. :) congratulations. you missed the point. assume this is counterstrike, and if the guy is SHOOTING YOU THROUGH THE WALL, you call sploits! sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
Terradoct	Posted - 2006.03.09 07:58:00 - [108] all I have to say to OP and the rest who support him in this thread - LOL, ROFL, and the last RTFM.
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.03.09 08:25:00 - [109] You're attacking people in a system where they have a Large POS? If I understand things correctly. Which makes that system their home. So they have the home advantage that their carrier doesn't need to warp around from safe to safe all the time. WOW big advantage. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Rawne Karrde	Posted - 2006.03.09 08:35:00 - [110] I keep seeing people whine about how the carrier was invulnerable. Plain and simply it was not. POS's die quite reglarily in EvE these days, you failed to bring enough fire power to do the job. Simple as that. Finally nice to see making a home in 0.0 has more purpose than making a giant blob on the map for peeps to raid constantly.
Cadela Fria	Posted - 2006.03.09 10:04:00 - [111] I think this thread is hillarious...really it is..the only arguments presented is based on the fact that some people couldn't figure out how to wtfpwn a carrier..which is sad, cause consider these things: 1. Carriers are not, and I repeat, NOT! frontline combat ships..they're support ships. Whether you like to accept or not, they're supposed to hide from you and be annoying from afar where you either can't reach them or can't find them. 2. PVP does not equal risk as a mathematical constant. it's a variation of the same..there are different levels of risk, and in the case of the carrier, the risk was that they might lose their fighters, which for some oddball reason cost 20 million a piece (what a stupid price really) and the fact that the carrier was hiding in the POS shields simply suggests he did some smart thinking and assigned his fighters to his friends and sat it out in the POS shields...I think anyone would do that if they got the idea. 3. Just because you can't figure out how to beat a smart tactic does not equal that out as having to be nerfed, changed or altered..I mean this was the plan with them, this was what CCP decided on them ..doesn't it seem a little arrogant to just singlehandedly come around and demand that it be changed? I think it does... 4. You don't agree with it? Well of course you don't..coming in a situation where you're faced with a problem you can't seem to solve..I have the same problem with prices of things..like Exhumers for example, the big one..why in the hell does a bloody large T2 barge, which isn't that terribly different then a Covetor if you compare them and really look at their stats, cost 500 bloody million ??? it's INSANE!! Even more so for relatively new'ish people..I mean they will never hardly SEE these ships cause nobody can damn well afford them and thats stupid, whats the damn point of having so many ships if nobody can afford them except these huge manufactoring corporations...but thats just too bad, I can't change that nor do I have any right to shrugs too bad...thats just how things are. If I want these things I have to do a crapload of extra work to 'defeat' this problem the hard way as theres no easy way.
Hardin	Posted - 2006.03.09 10:11:00 - [112] The Ushra'Khan recently used a carrier against us. Initially the carrier was in range and part of a UK battle fleet. We concentrated on killing its support. As they started dieing we turned on the carrier and got some scrambles on it but a brave UK Scorp pilot (who died for his effort) came in and jammed the scramblers giving the carrier the opportunity to get to a safe. ((The Scorp pilot should be given a medal imho )) The carrier then launched a wave of fighter attacks on us from the safe - assigning fighters to shuttles and frigates. These were easily combated by killing the ship that the fighters were assigned too (as they go back to the carrier when this happens) and by popping the fighters themselves. The carrier pilot soon decided not to waste anymore. As the initially target for the fighters during the fleet battle I can confirm that those little bastards hurt - I only just escaped in structure. Anyway I do not think using Carriers at a POS is an exploit. It is part of the game and people will need to plan for it. Used in this way the Carrier (or group of carriers) can be a fantastic tool in defending POS & Systems - something I think is needed as it seems to have become way too easy to kill even the most armed to the teeth POS with blobs of dreads. --------------------------------- Smiting pirates and terrorists since Sept 2003
Madboy	Posted - 2006.03.09 14:38:00 - [113] Originally by: Hardin ...it seems to have become way too easy to kill even the most armed to the teeth POS with blobs of dreads. Hehe, aint that the truth. - Madboy
Derran	Posted - 2006.03.09 15:57:00 - [114] Edited by: Derran on 09/03/2006 15:58:03 Hey Hardin. Don't forget the lag! Originally by: Hardin The Ushra'Khan recently used a carrier against us. That was me! Originally by: Hardin The carrier then launched a wave of fighter attacks on us from the safe - assigning fighters to shuttles and frigates. These were easily combated by killing the ship that the fighters were assigned too (as they go back to the carrier when this happens) and by popping the fighters themselves. The carrier pilot soon decided not to waste anymore. Um, you only killed 1.;) My poor Dragonfly. And it was worth a shot. It was the first live fire exercise with a carrier. I had to know how that bad boy performed. And I wanted more information on how fighters and delegation worked. I sure tanked you guys pretty well. I could have kept it up pretty much all day.:) Originally by: Hardin As the initially target for the fighters during the fleet battle I can confirm that those little bastards hurt - I only just escaped in structure. Yeah, well, you were my primary target. The target jamming turned our orders all wackey. When everything went sour, my first thought was to KILL HARDIN! :D Originally by: Hardin Anyway I do not think using Carriers at a POS is an exploit. It is part of the game and people will need to plan for it. Used in this way the Carrier (or group of carriers) can be a fantastic tool in defending POS & Systems - something I think is needed as it seems to have become way too easy to kill even the most armed to the teeth POS with blobs of dreads. Agreed. I think technically speaking you could also delegate the fighters and cloak. Just that they would probably go inactive if the controller went down. Haven't tested that yet.
Jones Cirom	Posted - 2006.03.09 17:03:00 - [115] I find it a little off and concur with the writer. And no I won't say, "live with it" or "if you can't cope" or "newb", like most of the others in this thread. rgds
Yzman Shhan	Posted - 2006.03.09 17:06:00 - [116] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Stop you pathetic smack... snip btw could you ask you mum when puberty start so you will be rdy for it?? -- No sig ftw!
Jenna H4ze	Posted - 2006.03.09 17:15:00 - [117] 1/2 of these replys are clueless, A ss you can find and at least you can lock them in the ss, in the pos the carrier can own you and not even get locked. I would say about 3 people in this thread have actually fought one and have a clue.
Carter Burke	Posted - 2006.03.09 17:32:00 - [118] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Originally by: Ti anna Before we go off half roostered, did you think that maybe the carrier was just there and was assigning fighters to the other combatants? From this point on, the cruisers, frigates, bs's etc, that had fighters assigned to them could use them to attack as needed. This IS a valid tactic and is well within the guidelines and the purpose of a carrier. Carrier inside shield, supplying fighters to other corp allies/pilots is a GREAT tactic and should be applauded, not moaned. Yes he had assigned Fighter to his gang m8s ships but dont you see its not fair becuase the carrier is not taking any risk at all.. Arnt pvp suppose to put you ina risk zone where you can lose you ships doesnt that make pvp the fun is it today?? PVP = Fun becuase you can lose you ship.. This is just a win button with no risk at all First thing, you'd probably find you have a more receptive audience if you stop using r3t4rd-sp34k. Second thing, you've just neutered your own argument: the fighters are what are giving you grief. The fighters cost a bundle of cash each. The fighters are targetable and killable. So, carrier pilot risks fighter investment to rip you a new bunghole. You could have targeted the fighters and killed them, thereby neutralizing the carrier's firepower, and then taken down the POS in which the carrier pilot would then have been trapped. That seems like a BIG risk to me. As you said, he had lots of teammates that made your life difficult. Let's see, what's the term for that...oh yeah, "Boo, hoo." Sounds like, as a previous poster noted, you were simply outgunned but proceeded anyway. Well, you got fed your lunch, and you deserved it. CB
Carter Burke	Posted - 2006.03.09 17:47:00 - [119] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Zeitor LOL this is the funniest thing I've ever heard. It's like you're whining because you wanted to shot someone that's hiding behind a wall. let's think real life tactics. If you're being shot at, do you walk out from behind the wall and into the middle of an open clearing with a bullseye painted on your chest and say "here I am I want to make it fair shoot me." OMG thanks soooooo much for the laugh. I vote this Whine of the month. :) congratulations. you missed the point. assume this is counterstrike, and if the guy is SHOOTING YOU THROUGH THE WALL, you call sploits! Congratulations. You invented a non-existent point. This isn't counterstrike, and he's not shooting you through the wall. Now if counterstrike had a self-mobile 9mm pistol that you could assign to a friend and control with a radio device, and that your friend could sic on targets, it'd be more of a comparison. But then, if such a device existed in counterstrike, it would be perfectly logical for the controller to stay shelterred while his guns ran haywire all over the other team. Pfft. CB
Malvolio	Posted - 2006.03.09 18:24:00 - [120] Do the fighters still work if you cloak the Carrier?
Agent Kenshin	Posted - 2006.03.09 18:27:00 - [121] The issue here is whether or not fighters should be allowed to operate if the carrier is behind the POS bubble. If CCP removes that feature. Whats to stop the carrier pilot from sitting right outside the sheilds and launching his fighters. If the POS has guns and defense there still is no way a fleet of bships is gonna come in and take out the carrier before the POS guns roast them... More than likely most of the bships will be insta popped.. If by some chance they do manage to get the carrier into armor or even structure he can traverse the little distance to get back inside the sheilds and his fighters stop working. There is no difference in this tactic and having bships or drone ships sitting outside the POS bubble on a well defended POS. Just that the carrier has a little more armor than most Bships. But they can just as well go behind the shields as well. Whether or not any one likes it you need Dreads to attack anything INSIDE OR JUST OUTSIDE a well defended POS. Otherwise as most pilots know its like commiting suicide... Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers' ehehehh....
Agent Kenshin	Posted - 2006.03.09 18:28:00 - [122] Originally by: Malvolio Do the fighters still work if you cloak the Carrier? Nope they go inactive like your drones do when you crash even if there assigned to someone. Originally by: MAXSuicide only carebears call pvpers 'greifers' ehehehh....
Kaaii	Posted - 2006.03.09 18:32:00 - [123] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Zeitor LOL this is the funniest thing I've ever heard. It's like you're whining because you wanted to shot someone that's hiding behind a wall. let's think real life tactics. If you're being shot at, do you walk out from behind the wall and into the middle of an open clearing with a bullseye painted on your chest and say "here I am I want to make it fair shoot me." OMG thanks soooooo much for the laugh. I vote this Whine of the month. :) congratulations. you missed the point. assume this is counterstrike, and if the guy is SHOOTING YOU THROUGH THE WALL, you call sploits! I think this analogy would hold water if you couldn't blow up the wall... "..Id rather fall beside 10 lions, than stand with One thousand sheep.." Tradeing 101
Juki Lee	Posted - 2006.03.09 23:00:00 - [124] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Zeitor LOL this is the funniest thing I've ever heard. It's like you're whining because you wanted to shot someone that's hiding behind a wall. let's think real life tactics. If you're being shot at, do you walk out from behind the wall and into the middle of an open clearing with a bullseye painted on your chest and say "here I am I want to make it fair shoot me." OMG thanks soooooo much for the laugh. I vote this Whine of the month. :) congratulations. you missed the point. assume this is counterstrike, and if the guy is SHOOTING YOU THROUGH THE WALL, you call sploits! Your analogy is slightly off. This would be more like a guy hiding in a closet, but giving his bigger gun to his buddy who leans around the corner in full view and blasts away with both guns.

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