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Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
Codex Aevum
28
   |
Posted - 2013.12.18 09:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am a heavy user of the "Reactor Armor Plating" in small-scale/solo PvP.
These fights usually last several minutes, because that's how long the cap-boosters last. Once you run out of cap-boosters however your dead!
I have the skill "Armor Resistance Plating" at 0 and after around 1min + couple seconds my "Reactive Armor Plating" my resistances will be perfect for the whole remainder of the fight.
This combo of ancilliary armor repairer + medium armor repairer II + reactive armor hardener works quite well for me.
However:
If' I would skill "Armor Resistance Plating" to 5 (instead of leaving it at 0) it would change the cap needs of my "reactive" in the following way:
100% *0.75 / 0.5 = 150%
It would make the module (that is intensely cap-hungry anyway) need 50% more cap for the whole fight!
And what would the benefit be?
It will provide me with better resistances 30sec earlier.
Conclusion:
- Reactive Armor hardener takes time to set up (and ur armor needs to be attked during that time). It is therefore unfeasible to use it in larger engagement as when ur armor starts taking damage ur dead.
=> Reactive Hardener is only usefull in smallscale Battles, where you do not take too much damage.
- In a smallscale Battle where you do not insta-pop you are likely going to fight until you run out of cap-boosters. Such a fight could easily last 5min and your resistances will only be slghtly better in the first 30-60sec. They will be the same in the remaining 4min.
=> In the fights where the Reactive Hardener makes sense, "Armor Resistance Plating 5" will not help you much.
When having "Armor Resistance Plating 5" in a 5min fight it will eat 150% of its regular cap-amount.
=> In the fights where the Reactive Hardener makes sense, "Armor Resistance Plating 5" will make u need more capboosters and therefore might shorten your fight.
=> You might not even be cap-stable with the cap-charge-size you use. If you need bigger charges to support this skill, it means u can spend less time around 33% max-cap and you will regenerate less cap. If that happens you will have to eat even more capboosters during ur fight time and shorten it even further.
=> Some ships are so tight with their cap-boostersm that they are already using "medium capacitor boosters" + "Navy Cap Boosters 800". Some of these ships will not even be able to permaruin their weapons or reppers if they skill this skill up.
=> Having to use bigger cap boosters makes you much more prone to beeing nosferatued. and can further drain ur cap-boosters.
=> when you are neuted even by just a small neutralizer, this skill can make the difference between keeping it going or getting neuted to death.
The "Reactive Armor hardener" is made for the longer type of battles. In these longer type of battles the skill "Armor Resistance Plating" can often break your back.
The skill is therefore for most uses really bad for smaller ships and needs fixing, to bring the cap-need in line with the cycle time. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
595
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 10:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's "reactive armor herdener". Also it's "armor resistance phasing".
Finally, yes, it's time to get rid of higher cap consumption imposed by skill. |
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
Codex Aevum
29
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 10:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ah and one more thing:
I won't even need to comment on how usefull this skill is for missions/anoms, where you are fighting the same resistances for 30min or more. |
Takanuro
The Amarrian Expendables
24eme Legion Etrangere
43
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 12:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Agreed. I stopped this skill at Level 3 just to go halfway house on the cycletime v increased cap need equation.
I noticed they have done this correctly on the Spectrum Breakers, where the skills says:
'Reduces duration time and capacitor need of Target Spectrum Breakers by 5% per level'
Please fix it CCP.
Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!
|
Janna Windforce
EVE University
Ivy League
37
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 12:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
You forgot to note the biggest advantage of Reactive Armor Hardener: it stacks only with DCU. If you know you will be againist eg. lasers only or hybrids only, no other module will pack 30/30 resists in one slot with more or less non-existant stacking penalties. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
CAStabouts
1476
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 14:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Confirming that I also stopped the skill at III.
CCP really ought to add a second bonus to the skill reducing activation cost of the module by 10% skill level. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
663
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 15:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Janna Windforce wrote:You forgot to note the biggest advantage of Reactive Armor Hardener: it stacks only with DCU. If you know you will be againist eg. lasers only or hybrids only, no other module will pack 30/30 resists in one slot with more or less non-existant stacking penalties.
yeah, its a good module, we know. Skill is broken however. The cap use from the hardener is very significant, and training the skill makes the module less usable.
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Grenn Putubi
Swag Co.
SWAG Co
49
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 15:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
The only other skills in the game that increase the cap use of a module are Energy Pulse Weapons and Repair Systems. One reduces the duration on Smart Bombs without reducing their cap consumption but in exchange you get a significant increase in DPS. The other reduces the cycle time on armor repair modules which already have an extremely long cycle time and doesn't significantly increase the cap/minute equation.
The Reactive Armor Hardener is already the most expensive resistance module in the game and this skill only makes it more expensive without providing a meaningful increase in its effectiveness. I'd go so far as to ask for the skill to be changed to a 10% reduction in cycle time and a 12% reduction in activation cost so that the skill doesn't just increase the speed at which the module affects your resists, but also makes it a little bit more efficient as well. There are very few times that Reactive hardener is a better choice than just putting an Energized Adaptive Plating in the slot instead, especially once you get your armor compensation skills to lvl4 or 5. |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
615
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 15:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Takanuro wrote:Please fix it CCP.
When they first released the skill, it was just a cycle time reduction, and absolutely no cap use reduction.
Then they added a cap use reduction.... but purposefully made it smaller. Thus its not broken, but "working as intended"
I can only assume the person in charge was under the influence of drugs, or otherwise mentally impaired.
I do find the arguments on this thread to be quite compelling, and I haven't trained this skill at all. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA
Apex.
144
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 15:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Increasing a skill should always make you a better pilot.
There should never be a skill that has some sort of trade-off where you wonder if skilling it higher will make you a worse pilot.
Never, ever.
Poorly designed skill, and needs to be reworked.
After all, they are called skills, not disabilities. |
Grenn Putubi
Swag Co.
SWAG Co
49
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 15:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Increasing a skill should always make you a better pilot.
There should never be a skill that has some sort of trade-off where you wonder if skilling it higher will make you a worse pilot.
Never, ever.
Poorly designed skill, and needs to be reworked.
After all, they are called skills, not disabilities.
+1 |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
210
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 15:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
At least training Armor Resistance Phasing past level 3 does something, even if it is a mostly negative effect. Training Industrial Construction past level 3 really is wasted SP as it does absolutely nothing for you, at all. |
Takanuro
The Amarrian Expendables
24eme Legion Etrangere
44
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 16:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Increasing a skill should always make you a better pilot.
There should never be a skill that has some sort of trade-off where you wonder if skilling it higher will make you a worse pilot.
Never, ever.
Poorly designed skill, and needs to be reworked.
After all, they are called skills, not disabilities.
CCP loves adding new skills recently. Now awaiting 'Disabilities Compensation' skill 
Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!
|
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
696
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 17:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
+1 OP |
elitatwo
Congregatio
180
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 18:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:At least training Armor Resistance Phasing past level 3 does something, even if it is a mostly negative effect. Training Industrial Construction past level 3 really is wasted SP as it does absolutely nothing for you, at all.
You need that at 5 to 'bake' the tech2 industrials just like you need the other ship production skills to 5 to make the tech2 ships.
Anyhow,
yes I agree the damn thing should use less cap per skill level and and both the rah and the eanm can use a little bit of cpu reduction as well.
signature |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage
Fidelas Constans
148
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 21:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:It's "reactive armor herdener". Also it's "armor resistance phasing".
Finally, yes, it's time to get rid of higher cap consumption imposed by skill.
Only if eanm get an activation cost. Armour tanking gets a lot of free resists already.
Also maybe just pulse the rah? Run it a couple of cycles at the start of a fight then turn it off? The stsrt of a fight is when your ehp matters the most.
Click here for LP store weapon cost rebalancing |
Lucy Riraille
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 23:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
+1
needs fixing!
Problem well explained by OP!!! |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
607
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 04:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Also maybe just pulse the rah? Run it a couple of cycles at the start of a fight then turn it off? The stsrt of a fight is when your ehp matters the most.
As it was explained above, the exact reason phasing skill sucks is because you can't pulse RAH. It's not some fancy plating with obnoxious resistance bonuses you can arrange however you want. It's basically a hardener, just as name suggests, meaning that if you turn it off, it's totally useless. A hardener that noms cap with twice the appetite of small MWD, I should mention. |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
618
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 09:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
The effect of this skill is that you use cap faster to shift resistances faster - which is perfectly fine, just like you use cap faster to rep faster or shoot faster.
However, as it is a hardener, the main point of the thing is to provide resistance for cap.
You should not have to pay more cap to maintain the same resists.
If there was some way that it used extra cap while shifting resists, then it would be fine if the skill reduced the cap needed to maintain resists, but not to shift resists.
The skill is less than worthless, it makes the module worse. Once trained, it cannot be untrained...
Don't permenantly handicap yourself.
Do
Not
Train
This
Skill
!!!
(at least until CCP fixes it) |
Motorbit
Viriette Industrial Combined Arms Militia
Villore Accords
24
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 14:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
i agree that this skill and this module have problems and i would appriciate to see them adressed.
just keep in mind:
right now rah are (almost) unusable on friggates due to the cap usage. "fixing" this however would make rah for friggates, especially in 1:1 engagements, completely overpowered.
so... this thingy has to be touched very carefully. "fixing" it would break the game in other areas, thus doing much more harm then this one broken skill only affecting one module does right now. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
676
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 15:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Motorbit wrote:
right now rah are (almost) unusable on friggates due to the cap usage. "fixing" this however would make rah - and therefore armor tanking - on friggates completely overpowered. especially in 1:1 engagements.
Not if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. The RAH is bad on frigs for all kinds of reasons, and the cap use is prohibative even without the increased usage from the skill.
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
5800
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 15:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
When training a skill higher means you make the module worse it's bad game design. I don't care how you balance it, but higher skill level should never be a direct handicap. The problem really is, that how the skill works is in direct conflict with how the module is designed to work. The entire module is relient on being kept on the whole time or it loses its entire purpose, so the skill should reflect that design and not increase the cap cost/second. This isn't a hard concept to understand. Either change the skill or change the module. |
Remy Nolen
Sama Guild
1
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 15:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
for subcaps, yeah it does suck ass. Cap pilots otoh, would be foolish not to use it. |
Grenn Putubi
Swag Co.
SWAG Co
50
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 15:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
Well, the idea isn't that the module is bad or isn't worth using. Clearly it's a good thing even though it's expensive.
The issue is that training the related skill that's meant to improve the module's function makes it harder to use not easier. |
Roime
Imperial Collective
3994
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 15:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
I got the skill at level V and I find the adaptation time very useful, and in general the cap usage is not an issue at all on cruisers neither in PVE or PVP.
I still do agree with OP, skills shouldn't generally have such adverse effects.
. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
621
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 16:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
+1
the fact that it can be neuted off just compounds the modules popularity along with the specific skill training time and excessive cap need.. no wonder people just prefer too use the EANM II mod
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic
AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
346
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 02:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote:When training a skill higher means you make the module worse it's bad game design. I don't care how you balance it, but higher skill level should never be a direct handicap. The problem really is, that how the skill works is in direct conflict with how the module is designed to work. The entire module is relient on being kept on the whole time or it loses its entire purpose, so the skill should reflect that design and not increase the cap cost/second. This isn't a hard concept to understand. Either change the skill or change the module.
You do know that it's also this way with armor repairers? The higher your repair systems skill the faster they cycle and the more cap they use. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
RAZOR Alliance
255
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 03:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
IIshira wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:When training a skill higher means you make the module worse it's bad game design. I don't care how you balance it, but higher skill level should never be a direct handicap. The problem really is, that how the skill works is in direct conflict with how the module is designed to work. The entire module is relient on being kept on the whole time or it loses its entire purpose, so the skill should reflect that design and not increase the cap cost/second. This isn't a hard concept to understand. Either change the skill or change the module. You do know that it's also this way with armor repairers? The higher your repair systems skill the faster they cycle and the more cap they use.
It makes sense to train Repair Systems higher, because the shorter cycle time makes your tank that much better. Just as training Rapid Firing to V is good because it increases your DPS. On the other hand, the OP's point is that Training Armor Resistance Phasing does not really make the module substantially better. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
37
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 04:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Increasing a skill should always make you a better pilot.
There should never be a skill that has some sort of trade-off where you wonder if skilling it higher will make you a worse pilot.
Never, ever.
Poorly designed skill, and needs to be reworked.
After all, they are called skills, not disabilities.
THIS
+1 |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
346
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 04:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:IIshira wrote:Destination SkillQueue wrote:When training a skill higher means you make the module worse it's bad game design. I don't care how you balance it, but higher skill level should never be a direct handicap. The problem really is, that how the skill works is in direct conflict with how the module is designed to work. The entire module is relient on being kept on the whole time or it loses its entire purpose, so the skill should reflect that design and not increase the cap cost/second. This isn't a hard concept to understand. Either change the skill or change the module. You do know that it's also this way with armor repairers? The higher your repair systems skill the faster they cycle and the more cap they use. It makes sense to train Repair Systems higher, because the shorter cycle time makes your tank that much better. Just as training Rapid Firing to V is good because it increases your DPS. On the other hand, the OP's point is that Training Armor Resistance Phasing does not really make the module substantially better.
The whole point of a Reactive Armor Hardener is it reacts to the incoming damage type. Hence the name.
Having that skill at level 5 means it's going to "react" twice as fast to the incoming damage type. I'm not sure what yours or the OP's idea of "substantially better" is but working twice as fast sure qualifies in my book. |
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