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Baff's Ugly
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Posted - 2003.09.07 19:38:00 -
[31]
in role play as in real life. not everyone is going to like you. not everyone is going to be polite or nice to you.
plenty of people hate each other.
it's natural.
it's normal.
don't be so pathetic.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.09.07 19:44:00 -
[32]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 07/09/2003 19:48:25
Although you might get me wrong you still might understand my point:
The actual problem is the ship-balance.
The thing is that right now EvE is pretty much "the biggest ship wins".
You need a battleship to really compete with the rest of the universe. And as we all know those things are pretty freakin expensive.
It takes a whole lot of time to get into a battleship, and once lost it takes a whole lot of time to get the next battleship unless you¦re in a corp of say 100 people where battleships are produced pretty fast. For the ordinary player obtaining a battleship is a task that requires months of training, weeks of mining and an extremely high amount of dedication.
Everyone who doesn¦t have a battleship is on his way to get one, and those that have battleships do everything not to lose them (including exploits and lame gaming like station hogging and such).
The outcome of this all is hate. NOBODY likes losing something that he worked on for months and some people are so addicted to EvE that they will start hating people that interfere with their fortune in the game (notice I said "people", not "characters"). They hate those who blow up their battleships and in some cases they start to hate them in RL, too.
IMHO this can only be countered by improving the ship balance until we have a situation as it was intended by CCP... with FRIGATES being the most valuable, yet cheapest ship in the game.
Losing a frigate is something you can laugh about. They¦re cheap so they can be easily replaced. That in turn means that whenever you get your frig blown up you won¦t start to hate that player who spanked you. What you¦d do is just hop into the next frig and attack him again.
The whole point here is that getting hold of a frigate takes a lonely player a few minutes while a battleship takes weeks if not months to obtain. This of course means that losing a frigate causes nothing more than a laugh and good feelings (you know, the "ahh you ******* you got me this time heheheh" type of feeling)for the player that destroyed you while getting your battleship destroyed causes major annoyance and in quite a few cases hatred for the player that destroyed your battleship.
Imagine a world of EvE where frigates are in fact the ships everyone uses the most. It would make the game look entirely different. Corpwars would actually be something that "lasts", not something that "happens". Do you get my point?
Right now corpwars (and the related RPG) are pretty much fought in one or two huge battles where battleships are the main factor.
All your effort, everything you¦ve worked for in the game is measured in a single battle and loosing really makes you "look bad". Some people get so angry over this that they start hating others for that very reason.
I seriously hope you get the point here.
When you¦re able to replace your "fighting tools" fast you don¦t get that angry when you lose it. What you do is just grab the next and carry on. Losses don¦t hog in your brain for weeks and therefor you don¦t really spend time thinking about that guy who blew you up... you rather try to figure out how to give him a proper fight again so that you can win this time.
Battles in EvE and everything related to it shouldn¦t be about battleships, they should be about frigates and I really hope CCP will change the balance towards frigates in future. Otherwise you will see hatred OOG increasing on a day to day basis until the point is reached where more and more people start leaving the game.
While you might not see a relation between ship balance and OOC hatred let me assure you that EvE¦s ship balance indeed does play a big part here.
Mai's Idealog |
Darketh Nightspawn
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Posted - 2003.09.07 19:49:00 -
[33]
 Quote:
Quote:
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People goin too far should be banned instantly and disconnected by their isp, what moron sends virus emails because of an game?
The same morons who start waving around lawsuits maybe????
If you aquire data that is against the law, else he couldnt sue this person... Then this person should be banned too.
If the information was supplied by someone who had legitimate access to it.... he has no right to protest.....
He is the one saying that 'it's a a game' and then running for his lawyer..... which make him the LOOOOOOOSEEERRRR
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:11:00 -
[34]
"Hate" has often been the missing factor to provide motivational actions in MOGs, ultra-dumbed down with "carebear" friendly game mechanics...
"Hate" drives so very much content and action when you get down to it: Or does it?
The issue, as that article and Tehel pointed out, is the dividing line between OoC and IC; where OoC becomes RL.
The single instance nature of this particular game can definately "condense" the level of passion and it is far beyond that found in the overhwelming majority of Multi-shard games...
perhaps its because you can only ahve one reputation.. there is no alternate reality you can switch too and that makes us much more protective of our own interpretation of events... not too mention our fragile reputations.
I "hate" TTi with a passion and that is personified in the IC persona of Ragnar.
Haven't got a clue what he's (she's?) like in RL and i doubt I ever will, I have no feelings toward him, how could I?
- - -
For myself ive been in online gaming for over 17 years, RL meets for substantial online gmaing groups makes one very much aware that the person behind the Character is often nothing at all as you would suppose.
The most mature player I ever met (RL) from "a game" was 13 and the least mature was 44.
Anybody interested on the subject should read Jullian Dibbels works "My Tiny life" , lots of what he has listed as sources and also check out the daedelus project (amongst others).
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:19:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Quote:
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People goin too far should be banned instantly and disconnected by their isp, what moron sends virus emails because of an game?
The same morons who start waving around lawsuits maybe????
If you aquire data that is against the law, else he couldnt sue this person... Then this person should be banned too.
Just to squash any rumours: MDW didnt get sued, there was nothing that could have been sued over.
Lots of people threaten legal action, most times their own lawyers tell them to get a life.
MDW closed primarily because I dont like my family receiving hatemail from supposed "gamers" and that certain companies aren't interested in investigating such incidences.
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Hortle
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:40:00 -
[36]
Pffft hate for ic and occ generally get mixed together. why would anyone expect it to be any other way? |
Foomanshoe
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Posted - 2003.09.08 01:34:00 -
[37]
Well, you know what, sometimes people just **** you off, and cause you nothing but grief, and make the game unenjoyable. That can lead to hate which usually goes both ic and ooc.
Most of the forums id have to say isnt hate though.
I know i poke fun at TTI, and other people who act stupid, because, thats my character, a crazy fun loving guy that likes to insult stupid people.
I mean, if your going to go around sueing people and calling them socialists (HAHAHAHA Socialists!! HAHAHAHA) then you gotta expect to be flamed everywhere you go.
Its the same if you exploit, or you ore steal, or you scam.
I mean, really people, if your a jerk to people (which TTI generally is, but you arent alone so dont go crying) then expect to be treated like a jerk in return.
You reap what you sow
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BH Latro
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Posted - 2003.09.08 03:59:00 -
[38]
Hate in eve? bah! 
As long as the minmater know there place there will no problems 
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edudtset
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Posted - 2003.09.08 04:03:00 -
[39]
we know our place when your bloody broken body looks up , our place is the guy holding the crowbar |
EndersGame
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Posted - 2003.09.08 04:25:00 -
[40]
foolish minmater hehehehe..... excellent... 
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Tehel Necrona
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Posted - 2003.09.08 17:03:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Tehel Necrona on 08/09/2003 17:04:19
:)
Tell me how many TTI people have you spoken too? Also how dare you even contemplate placing me in the same field as exploiters and ore thieves.
Also the day Ragnar sue's someone over Eve is the day i sprout a turnip from my backside. I think he was simply doing it to show Shadow Stalker (the guy who recieved the threat) how out of line he really was. Like when Jade complained about Ctaesis, she's not really that worried about him knowing she likes being whiped, but it showed how out of line he actually was.
Wake up people and try to not be so gullable.
-Necro
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ChandraGupta
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Posted - 2003.09.08 17:13:00 -
[42]
Ragnar thinsk hes soo tough ..
I would take the time to kick his ass in real life ... if i ever see him that is ... or recognise him..
seeing hwo he has used lawyers adn all in RL against EVE gamers.... perhaps someone will tell me a bit more about him :)
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Daesdemona
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Posted - 2003.09.08 17:23:00 -
[43]
probably just a rich exec that is so used to use lawyers in RL he automatically applied the same concept to eve.
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Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?"
Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't"
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Tehel Necrona
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Posted - 2003.09.08 20:09:00 -
[44]
Chandra, please don't ultimatley prove to me that your an utter retard.
Do half of you even know what went on? No, your just jumping on a bandwagon tooting your "YEa haha u suck and i rock" pipe.
-Necro
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Nootami
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Posted - 2003.09.08 20:25:00 -
[45]
Ive talked to several TTI people since I began playing eve, namely Roark (who i still talk to occasionally) and even Ragnar himself. I like them both and see no reason why someone would hate either of them OOG. The thought of someone sending viruses to people because of IG issues makes me sick.
Originally by: Cortex Reaver
[22:39:59] [Oi]Nootami1 joined channel
[22:40:02] [Oi]Nootami1 quit
Oh,look! Someone joined for a whopping .3 seconds!
-CR
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Derek
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Posted - 2003.09.08 21:34:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Derek on 08/09/2003 21:34:51
Its strange because people who actually deal with us and speak to us instead of just shouting what their next door neighbor told them usually have good things to say about us.
Not many people choose to single us out and talk to us. If they did they wouln't be able to "hate" us in game and have lots to whine and gossip about.
It's really sad how impersonal a game like this gets sometimes when its made to bring people together. I understand when corps fight each other for whatever reason and have fun with it (it is a game after all) , but then I see the people who won't talk to TTI members or they send hate mail or they in general just beleive whatever they read while never knowing what is really going on cause they don't seem to think for themselves.
The story with shadowstalker is that ragnar threatened a lawsuit because he wanted to know who sold him the posts from our website forums (SS never gave up his source)ragnar never actually sued him and he never sued anyone else in EVE. people just love the "oh i cant say anything bad about TTI or ragnar will sue me line" (its a little old when people have been saying it for 8 months-give it a rest)
Anyways that one thing seems to be what the undying vendetta against TTI is all about. Its ultimately pretty sad when thats what people do to keep themselves busy. See I respect people like stavr0s more because he just kills TTI cause he doesn't like our corp. He doesnt need these rightious causes based on lies(or truths stretched out into what might as well be a lie) to make himself feel better.
I would like to point out that this isn't me whining about beeing hated for beeing TTI. It's me wondering why there are so many people who hate or "roleplay" hatred towards people you have only read about. Some time to recollect and think about all the corps in the game and what they have really done and accomplished (wipe everything you read on the forums out of your mind for a second). Just something to think about.
_______________________________________________2005.05.02 03:56:57combatYour Mega Pulse Laser II perfectly strikes Sansha's Battletower, wrecking for 1190.5 damage._ |
Jorev
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Posted - 2003.09.08 22:14:00 -
[47]
Your advocacy for better moderation should start with the locking of this thread since ANY discussion of moderation is not permitted.
Oh wait.. you're in TTI.. nevermind 
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.09.08 22:59:00 -
[48]
Some people just love to make legal threats, even to insinuate the "law" will get involved. Some strive to get to that point as it has worked for them previously. Those people often forget that the person at the other end may be "the law" themselves. Its a common mistake; people forget that the "other person" has a RL.
You would be amazed how often people do also try to use the "law" like some magic trump card that will win them an arguement they know, from the off, they will not win otherwise.
- - -
Unfortunately Derek you cannot win over people by saying "He only did it once", for some once is one time too often and for others they would question how you "know" this only happened once.
Dont fight reputations, use them.
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Shock
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Posted - 2003.09.09 00:48:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Some people just love to make legal threats, even to insinuate the "law" will get involved. Some strive to get to that point as it has worked for them previously. Those people often forget that the person at the other end may be "the law" themselves. Its a common mistake; people forget that the "other person" has a RL.
You would be amazed how often people do also try to use the "law" like some magic trump card that will win them an arguement they know, from the off, they will not win otherwise.
Americans...
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soonÖ |
Darketh Nightspawn
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Posted - 2003.09.09 02:53:00 -
[50]
Quote:
Quote:
Some people just love to make legal threats, even to insinuate the "law" will get involved. Some strive to get to that point as it has worked for them previously. Those people often forget that the person at the other end may be "the law" themselves. Its a common mistake; people forget that the "other person" has a RL.
You would be amazed how often people do also try to use the "law" like some magic trump card that will win them an arguement they know, from the off, they will not win otherwise.
Americans...
Indeed.... Americans... they seem to associate fantasy with real life all to often.... and all to eager to pull a lawyer out of there...well...whatever...
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Bas Rutten
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Posted - 2003.09.09 06:04:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Bas Rutten on 09/09/2003 06:05:22
Hmmm ... hatred in a game ... first off I have to admit I don't roleplay at all, more or less because I'm everything but an actor (with little exceptions here and there just for fun).
So basically, when it comes to Bas Rutten, it's more or less myself and not a fictive character.
Regarding that other players might do the same, I at least could understand a slight portion of anger in some guys when they lose ships and then read on the forum how bad they got owned blah blah. Now have a guy with quick temper, and he will be ****ed off by the guy who "owned" him.
Not that I want to defend totally exeggerated flames/hatemails/whatever, but everyone should look at the flip-side of things ... this is a community driven by real people, which sometimes gets forgotten easily I think. So yah, it is a game, plain simple, but especially an online game is something ppl might put more emotions in then when they watch a movie for example.
But even then I and I guess the majority of the players would like to see it take place on a civilized level, as we ALL claim to be mature adults...
Now for the TTI/m0o/whatever issues which are discussed on an inflationary level ... I truly believe that only half of the people who post really know what is going on regarding betrayal or in m0o's case, use of exploits or not, so wouldn't it be a good suggestion to stfu if you have no proof on things? Jumping on anyone's flaming bandwagon will surely NOT improve the level of discussion here.
And to sum it up ... hating/loving someone you never face in RL is too far out for me to even think about ... oh yah, and if I ever should make someone mad at me who then would threaten me to kick my ass in RL, I can only say: bring it on, I'll give ya my addy
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Deny the Urge - brutal Death from Germoney
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Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.09.09 09:10:00 -
[52]
The only problem with 'hate' IC is when it crosses to OOC. One half of this is obviously people sending people viruses, using RL taunts, etc. All of these have quite possibly happened to TTi (although personally I think the viruses are more likely to be random worms). The other half of the story are people who cannot conceive that people don't think they're the good guys or that it is even vaguely possible that people can hate them for IC reasons. And if TTi aren't guilty of that I'll eat my hat!
There comes a point where in game actions become so ridiculous that an extreme in game reaction is required or you are basically letting your opponents get away with murder.
As to repeating info from in game boards. Whilst a little iffy, if the info repeated is purely restricted to IC stuff then it has to be fine. Otherwise you might have a spy who never goes there - which means thst a) they stand out like a sore thumb and b) if you restrict discussion to out of game forums then the spy can't do the job. If someone doesn't like it they shouldn't have an IC board.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
onardian
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Posted - 2003.09.09 11:14:00 -
[53]
Quote:
The story with shadowstalker is that ragnar threatened a lawsuit because he wanted to know who sold him the posts from our website forums (SS never gave up his source)ragnar never actually sued him and he never sued anyone else in EVE. people just love the "oh i cant say anything bad about TTI or ragnar will sue me line" (its a little old when people have been saying it for 8 months-give it a rest)
Anyways that one thing seems to be what the undying vendetta against TTI is all about. Its ultimately pretty sad when thats what people do to keep themselves busy. See I respect people like stavr0s more because he just kills TTI cause he doesn't like our corp. He doesnt need these rightious causes based on lies(or truths stretched out into what might as well be a lie) to make himself feel better.
I am shocked by the complacency that this is written... You are actually saying that someone used a lawyer to threaten legal action against someone else because of IG content? And this does not sound ludicrous? You are claiming that it is ok to use lawyers in a game???????
Well then I can start threatening people with lawsuits for poding me or stealing ore! I should sue them for damages due to lost time... I am paying for this game after all and these people cause me to lose playing time that costs money...
Seriously you should re-read what you have written. If you tell me that threatening with legal action because of IG content (as I understand the information stolen concerned IG) is the action of a balanced person there is really nothing further I can discuss with you. I will just lose my time.
As for people forming an opinion from something they have heard, you donÆt have to look hard. Americans hate Iraq and ****** because of things they are told regardless of whether they are true or not. In fact you can't be sure that anything that is said on the news is true or not cause you werenÆt there. Despite this, millions of people watch the news and most believe what they hear. So it is perfectly normal that, if you get a lot of people saying TTi is scum, you are bound to believe so, even more so if the only people that defend TTi are it's employees. The only thing I know about this story is what I have read on these forums and by the information I have your actions are definitely in my category of despicable. I might be wrong but that is the only information you have and I havenÆt seen anything on these boards that would convince me otherwise.
Of course this does not mean I hate you! You havenÆt done anything to me and even if you did, heck, I still wouldn't cause it's just a game! I would try and find ways to avenge what happened but transferring feelings from IC to OOC is definately problematic behaviour. I donÆt know you, I cant hate you or like you! Even if your alleged actions are below my moral standards, that still does not constitute a viable reason for hatred. Difference of opinions maybe, hatred definitely not.
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2003.09.09 11:15:00 -
[54]
Two things:
1. TTI is hated in game for the same reason Microsoft is hated in RL. They are the biggest and most successful and it was all pure luck , not hard work or being brilliant at what they do.
2. I role play a "bigot" IG, a Caldari who hates the Gallente and I have given him a back story to give him a very good reason for feeling that way. I do not (OOG) hate the Gallente or anyone who chooses to play Gallente. That is what role playing is. I think some people, who are not used to RP games misunderstand the position. I have certainly been told to kill myself on the forums (but not sure whether IC or OOC), I chose to treat it as an IC remark.
SM
And Moses was content to dwell with the man:and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom:for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land. |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.09.09 11:40:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 09/09/2003 11:41:42
Quote:
1. TTI is hated in game for the same reason Microsoft is hated in RL. They are the biggest and most successful and it was all pure luck, not hard work or being brilliant at what they do.
TTi are not the biggest, they aren't even close.
TTi are not the most succesful - if you define this as "wealth" (or just about anything else other than "Most despised").
Where do people get these ideas from?
Your post exemplifies the reason why urban-myth dominates reason though.
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Tehel Necrona
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Posted - 2003.09.09 11:54:00 -
[56]
Didn't really want to discuss us here but nm, As a corp though it is impossible to count our wealth. The wealth of each member is his own and not pooled into some hangar.
Sufice to several individual players within TTI have more personel wealth than some large corporations in terms of blue prints and minerals.
That's not an ego trip, btw. Wether or not this makes us the biggest, is questionable. This recent engagement has slowed us somewhat so i (personally of course) do not think this is the case.
-Necro
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.09.09 12:18:00 -
[57]
Which is my point Tehel - i know several individuals with every single bp (original) in the game and a few billions on top.
There is little "unusual" about having BPs anymore.. what "lead" some in TTi had went a long time ago and have been overhauled by other individuals and many many corporations and alliances that will pool resources and manpower.
This is all related to "hate" though as it is the perpetuation of urban myth. We will gladly encourage the "positive" mythology (wealth) but seek to erradicate the negative.
When playing such games one should enter into them knowing that one must always deal with both, you can not be selective in your myths.
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Tay La'Mott
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Posted - 2003.09.09 12:27:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Indeed.... Americans... they seem to associate fantasy with real life all to often.... and all to eager to pull a lawyer out of there...well...whatever...
Have you seen the state of our civil courts? Only a few judges are brazen enough to say "You are an idiot for wasting the courts time with this. For bringing this suit before me, you will be responsible for court costs and attorneys fees for the defendent. Dismissed. Next case!"
The few that are may get heralded or vilified by the media, so it is a gamble ... but I wish more would do it ...
c'est la vie,
Tay
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.09 13:18:00 -
[59]
Tehel (and the Taggart chaps) I think part of the problem you have in the premise of this thread is in understanding the gulf between what Taggart players think of themselves and what the rest of the community thinks of them. This obviously has both and IC and an OOC angle, but though I have experienced both in the last week, I chose as a player to concentrate solely on the former because the latter is something of a pointless minefield strewn with sadness and misdirection.
The problem is that to explain the issue requires OOC perspective for effective dissection;
The Taggart players as a group seem afflicted with a form of organisational schizophrenia. On the one hand they want to play peaceful economic domination and commercial alliance building to the limits of their skill and vision, while on the other, (personified in the play of Ragnar and Roark and Ctaesis and others) they want to play Keyser Soze and the Godfather mingled with Russian Mafia chic.
Now we all enjoy the ranting cackling emperor from Return of the Jedi who taunts and goads Luke towards the dark side by rejoicing in the death and humiliation of his friends à this is all great stuff à in a movie, but start utilising this form of dramatic methodology in a competitive game and you will reap the whirlwind of in-character hate.
In-game Taggart killed its own reputation the weekend before last. Ragnar took Taggart forever beyond the pale of the ôgood guysö and leagued himself with murderous pirate corps of the worst reputation imaginable. He betrayed his old allies, denounced a council he had been part of, spurned the sacrifices hitherto made for his corporation, and then proceeded to levy a direct contract of fiscal annihilation on my character Jade.
Now some people have described the 100 million in 5m chunks for 20 corpses a ôgriefingö bounty designed to spoil my game. I donÆt.
But I do believe it was a clear and obvious attempt to entirely destroy my in-game position and wealth as a warning for anybody else who might dare to stand up to the big bad Megacorp. Ragnar surely knew that 60million in projected cloning fees, 60-180million in destroyed ships, and Xmillion loss of earnings from interrupted business would hurt me a great deal, perhaps even break my ability to maintain a presence on the Eve political landscape.
What changed with RagnarÆs declaration were the rules of conduct, the rules of the game. Hitherto we were playing poker with friendly stakes, nothing risked that we could not afford to lose. But Ragnar changed that, because when he served notice on JadeÆs fiscal future he left me with one of two options;
1. That I beg, I grovel, I come back on my knees; the submissive public relations ***** a-scraping for forgiveness beneath the table of the mighty Plutocrat.
Or
2. That I fight and respond in kind. And how does one fight a nebulous organisation cloaked in alts and hidden business dealings, a company prepared to hire mercenary killers and dupes till the cows come home? By destroying its reputation and its employeesÆ will to be associated with the name, by destroying its perception of safety, by scorching the earth of future endeavour with an enduring war of significant material impact, to (as athule has commented elsewhere) leave TTI on the sidelines of development forever, by making the possibility of player-owned freestanding structures nothing but a lonely pipe-dream for the Taggart brand.
Now none of you chaps knew anything about me (apart from Ctaesis it appears) so who knows? Maybe the first option seemed likely, maybe the second never occurred. Certainly you underestimated the consequences and perhaps even convinced yourselves that the rules of engagement would be limited, would be tidy, and would be ultimately manageable with little disruption.
But its time to wake up and realise what Ragnar did. In-game he turned the bully-boy tactics of the Mafiosi against the wrong target. By breaking the VA council with treachery TTI earned a war. By making this a personal battle, with JadeÆs very existence in-game at stake, your CEO bought you a ticket to a blood feud. When a person is attacked with intent to murder, the victim has a right to self defence, this has happened, and is happening in-game.
My advice? Either live with it, or do something about it. But donÆt come looking for sympathy on the basis that none of it was your fault. All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men do to nothing.
JF Public Forum |
Miso
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Posted - 2003.09.09 14:23:00 -
[60]
I think the inability to deferentiate between IC rivalries and "hatreds" and OCC is purely down to intellectual capacity.
Intelligent people know the difference. So, there you go. Work out for yourselves which camp you fall into.
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Dead
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