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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Sevarus James
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Posted - 2006.03.15 15:15:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Sevarus James on 15/03/2006 15:22:00
I could write a page and a half about this 'average joe' and linux usage, I really could, but sometimes being to the point and brief is better. The reason people have the opinion, (Oveur included) that linux isn't ready for Joe Average User is summed up in the following two sentences:
1. Perception is EVERYTHING.
2. Marketing Trumps Technical superiority.
IBM found this out years ago with OS/2 much to their chagrin. Microsoft helped build that OS, and then buried it under an avalanche of marketing and FUD. (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.)
Linux will not have mainstream acceptance until more and more businesses adopt it for daily use. Business adoption has always fueled the home users environment.
In Europe and the Pan Pacific Rim, this is happening to a much larger degree now as the costs associated with Microsoft's licensing restrictions and business practices are FORCING a look at the alternatives.
Linux doesn't have the marketing muscle as it is a community effort. It doesn't have the "numbers" as its free (for the most part) to download and install, therefore accurate assesment of its penetration in the 'home' is damn difficult to glean.
What IS known is that more and more the demand for this alternative solution is cropping up in the news (I.T and otherwise).
This thread once again, begins to drift to the windows vs. linux wars. I started the thread as a 'news/information' piece letting our linux user contingent know we had progress in being able to use our operating system to play EVE.
I personally am NOT an anti-microsoft bigot. I firmly believe in the "right tool for the job". I also believe that if one tool begins to become cumbersome, expensive, clunky, bug ridden, viral prone unsecure AND expensive, I will look for an alternative. In this case, Linux wins for me on the desktop. Now, with the Cedega folks getting the polish on their "windows on linux" interface, it becomes even more capable for me to run the applications I want to run without being forced into a particular product against my wishes.
I'm just happy that I'm not alone here, and that the Transgaming folks have the same ambitions and goals. I get to play what I want on the operating system I CHOOSE. Simple enough for being 'ready' to me.
this post written on Open Office Write 2.0 using Firefox 1.5, listening to streaming radio (shoutcast) via XMMS plug-in, being viewed at 1900x1200 resolution with multiple virtual desktops to organize the various programs running to avoid clutter. Using Linux (Ubuntu 5.10)....and not one command line in sight at the moment. Eve running in a window in the background under cedega. OH, and this pc hasn't been rebooted in..........37 days.
"No power in the 'verse can stop us now!" |
Derran
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Posted - 2006.03.15 15:24:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Evod
Now if I can just get Eve to run on OSX, all will be right with the world.
I hear ya. I'll settle for running it in Linux for now.
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Usul Faust
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Posted - 2006.03.15 15:46:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Sevarus James
IBM found this out years ago with OS/2 much to their chagrin. Microsoft helped build that OS, and then buried it under an avalanche of marketing and FUD. (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.)
Surely it was more to do with OS/2 being really really bad.
no skills, just luck.
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David Sinclair
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Posted - 2006.03.15 15:47:00 -
[64]
Rather than join the windows vs. linux flamewar here, I'll actually ask a question on topic:
To those of you running Eve under Cedega 5.1.1, how do you deal with the mouse issue? In full screen mode, I still get the mouse pointer being rendered an inch and a half away from where the actual pointer is pointing.
In previous versions, I was able to alt-enter to windowed mode and back again to solve this, but with 5.1.1, there is some strange resolution issue and it just frells the whole thing up.
Should I delve into the resolutions, or have people found a better solution to the eve mouse-issue?
As an aside, anyone know what causes it? None of the other games I've ever run under Cedega has had that issue...
(As to Linux for the average user, everyone is arguing the wrong thing. How many "Joe Averages" installed windows? None. It's all about OEM support. If Dell put a quarter the effort they put into Windows into selling pre-installed mainstream Linux boxes, "Joe Average" wouldn't have a problem with it.)
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Sevarus James
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Posted - 2006.03.15 16:07:00 -
[65]
Originally by: David Sinclair
Rather than join the windows vs. linux flamewar here, I'll actually ask a question on topic:
To those of you running Eve under Cedega 5.1.1, how do you deal with the mouse issue? In full screen mode, I still get the mouse pointer being rendered an inch and a half away from where the actual pointer is pointing.
In previous versions, I was able to alt-enter to windowed mode and back again to solve this, but with 5.1.1, there is some strange resolution issue and it just frells the whole thing up.
Should I delve into the resolutions, or have people found a better solution to the eve mouse-issue?
As an aside, anyone know what causes it? None of the other games I've ever run under Cedega has had that issue...
(As to Linux for the average user, everyone is arguing the wrong thing. How many "Joe Averages" installed windows? None. It's all about OEM support. If Dell put a quarter the effort they put into Windows into selling pre-installed mainstream Linux boxes, "Joe Average" wouldn't have a problem with it.)
Agreed on the OEM side of the coin.
As to the mouse.......I'm not having any issues with it being off either in a window, or full screen. :O
"No power in the 'verse can stop us now!" |
Rasitiln
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Posted - 2006.03.15 16:35:00 -
[66]
Originally by: David Sinclair
Rather than join the windows vs. linux flamewar here, I'll actually ask a question on topic:
To those of you running Eve under Cedega 5.1.1, how do you deal with the mouse issue? In full screen mode, I still get the mouse pointer being rendered an inch and a half away from where the actual pointer is pointing.
In previous versions, I was able to alt-enter to windowed mode and back again to solve this, but with 5.1.1, there is some strange resolution issue and it just frells the whole thing up.
Should I delve into the resolutions, or have people found a better solution to the eve mouse-issue?
As an aside, anyone know what causes it? None of the other games I've ever run under Cedega has had that issue...
(As to Linux for the average user, everyone is arguing the wrong thing. How many "Joe Averages" installed windows? None. It's all about OEM support. If Dell put a quarter the effort they put into Windows into selling pre-installed mainstream Linux boxes, "Joe Average" wouldn't have a problem with it.)
This problem use to happen in previous version all you had to do was go to windowed mode and then back to full screen and it fixed itself.
That 1% was enough - Wrangler |
David Sinclair
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Posted - 2006.03.15 16:37:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Sevarus James
As to the mouse.......I'm not having any issues with it being off either in a window, or full screen. :O
I figured it out. Eve apparently doesn't like being corralled into a desktop window. Running it in true full-screen (or normal windowed mode) solved the issue.
The only issue now is the flickering pointer. I remember I had the same issue a while back when I played WoW under Linux. The pointer would flicker when the mouse was set to Hardware control, but was smooth as silk when I just changed it to "Software Mouse". I don't see any similar option under Eve though...
One other thing, since we have a dev cruising this forum. I ran across this article this morning about a WoW user who got summarilly banned from the game for running it under Linux with a Logitech keyboard. It's not entirely clear whether it was the keyboard or the Linux or some combination thereof (It's also suggested that Blizzard spyware^H^H^H^H^H^H anti-cheat software through up a red flag for not being able to see the normal windows environment.
Can we get a definitive statement from CCP that running Eve under Linux is not a bannable offense? Obviously, I don't expect CCP to support linux (though, it'd be really nice), actively banning it is another thing entirely...
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Rasitiln
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Posted - 2006.03.15 16:59:00 -
[68]
I got 5.1.1 and it works \o/ and I mean it works good no bugs no crashing
/emote throws windows box in the trash
That 1% was enough - Wrangler |
Rasitiln
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Posted - 2006.03.15 18:18:00 -
[69]
screenshot of my gentoo system runing eve 
That 1% was enough - Wrangler |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.15 18:20:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Rasitiln
screenshot of my gentoo system runing eve
Nice!
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Trek
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Posted - 2006.03.15 18:37:00 -
[71]
Well, appears there is work in progres to use Cedega on FreeBSD! Unfortunatley it is moving very slow so I guess I'll be stuck with windows for a while more. I definetley prefer *BSD over Linux so I'll have to consider it a few times before switching to an OS I don't really like even if switching from an OS I like even less! 
---
My other ship is a Reaper
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Asane
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Posted - 2006.03.15 18:37:00 -
[72]
I want to report the guy named "Gud" in there right away, for obvious reasons...
(Assuming that isn't actually Oveur..)
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Asane
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Posted - 2006.03.15 18:48:00 -
[73]
Prefer windows before Linux...?
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Trek
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Posted - 2006.03.15 19:27:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Asane
Prefer windows before Linux...?
Not really, but I am not that fond of Linux either, so.. However I would prefer Free/OpenBSD over Linux and Windows any day!
In my oppinion Free/Net/OpenBSD feels a lot more mature and not as much of a hack putting things together with ducttape and glue like Linux does (which I actually should like since I am Minmatar ). Anyhow, does anyone know if there is any linux distribution that follows the BSD style instead of SysV? If so that would be a bit more interesting!
---
My other ship is a Reaper
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Nightblade
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Posted - 2006.03.15 20:20:00 -
[75]
Originally by: David Sinclair
To those of you running Eve under Cedega 5.1.1, how do you deal with the mouse issue? In full screen mode, I still get the mouse pointer being rendered an inch and a half away from where the actual pointer is pointing.
In previous versions, I was able to alt-enter to windowed mode and back again to solve this, but with 5.1.1, there is some strange resolution issue and it just frells the whole thing up.
For the mouse cursor, I still use the very old work around of moving the log in window from the center of the screen/desktop window to the top left.
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Filuren
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Posted - 2006.03.15 20:30:00 -
[76]
Thank you, thank you, thank you..
The only reason I have not switched to Linux has been that I like to play games.
I have never heard about this product but as soon as I get home from work I will try and install it.
And if it does the trick, I will switch my dual boot from booting Windows as Default, to boot Ubuntu instead.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.15 21:02:00 -
[77]
are they actually allowed to sell lindows without providing a free download?
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F4ze
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Posted - 2006.03.15 22:46:00 -
[78]
This is all very nice and all, but I don't feel like shelling out for Cedega just to be able to play under linux...
...however, if I could somehow find a free version of Cedega (or at least a trial) I might give it a try.
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Samantha Dar'Khan
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Posted - 2006.03.15 22:48:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Evod
Now if I can just get Eve to run on OSX, all will be right with the world.
Amen
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.15 22:55:00 -
[80]
Originally by: F4ze
This is all very nice and all, but I don't feel like shelling out for Cedega just to be able to play under linux...
...however, if I could somehow find a free version of Cedega (or at least a trial) I might give it a try.
Try the CVS version of Cedega/WineX--its free.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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JamesTalon
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Posted - 2006.03.15 23:11:00 -
[81]
The thing I don't like about Linux is trying to find drivers for my hardware. Takes a few hours to actually get the thing working, and thats with someone who knows what they are doing working on it. I think until they make getting drivers easier, I'm going to be sticking to windows.
Oh, and Linspire was nice actually, just had some issues with getting MUSHclient to run, so I reinstalled windows since thats all I used that junk-heap laptop for.
http://caldarisurplus.2myip.net
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David Sinclair
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Posted - 2006.03.15 23:33:00 -
[82]
Originally by: JamesTalon
The thing I don't like about Linux is trying to find drivers for my hardware. Takes a few hours to actually get the thing working, and thats with someone who knows what they are doing working on it. I think until they make getting drivers easier, I'm going to be sticking to windows.
You know, I don't think I've had to search for a Linux driver in years... the only driver I've had to actually install is the nVidia drivers, but that's no different than windows (and the system will still run X without the specific nv drivers)... and I run Linux on laptops, servers, and desktops...
This seems to be one of the problems with Linux adoption... someone tried it a long time ago, and for whatever reason, some odd piece of hardware doesn't work, so they bad mouth Linux forever... Linux is evolving much faster than windows. To base assumptions of Linux on even just a few years ago would be like dis'ing XP because of Windows 95...
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.15 23:39:00 -
[83]
Originally by: JamesTalon
The thing I don't like about Linux is trying to find drivers for my hardware. Takes a few hours to actually get the thing working, and thats with someone who knows what they are doing working on it. I think until they make getting drivers easier, I'm going to be sticking to windows.
I'd say the opposite--Windows almost never has drivers, and you have to search the internet all over to find them (and they often don't work).
Linux almost always works perfectly without any tweaking, however, there are a few very notable exceptions, like Broadcom Wireless chipsets.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Sevarus James
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Posted - 2006.03.16 00:32:00 -
[84]
The driver question has always been more of perception rather than reality. With linux, you can download a "live" image of most distributions (called distros) to actually try out the system before installing anything. The live cd of the OS boots and sets up in ram as a complete OS. If you have 'issues', this is an easy way to discover them.
As for drivers, most modern linux distros are more complete than XP is. An example of that would be the time test I did on an XP instsall vs. a Ubuntu install on a dual boot system I built recently.
100% working with all driver support, the ubuntu linux system took 1.5 hours. The same install of XP on the SAME system required over three hours. I have to add that the ubuntu system also updated (fixes and such) ALL of the applications as well as the operating system.
There will ALWAYS be driver issues with some PC's. This isn't a windows OR linux issue, this is a component and vendor support issue.
Oh, and here's a quick cap of my "not ready for prime time" desktop running EVE in a 1280x1076 window with other applications running. (My native resolution is 1900x 1200 with an acer 24" widescreen monitor.)
Eve Desktop
That's a streaming radio station running upper right. Lower right notice multiple virtual desktop capability. Also mplayer is running 'Eve Never fades'.
This prior to the new 5.1.1 release of Cedega wasn't possible.
"No power in the 'verse can stop us now!" |
Sevarus James
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Posted - 2006.03.16 02:25:00 -
[85]
Originally by: David Sinclair
Originally by: Sevarus James
As to the mouse.......I'm not having any issues with it being off either in a window, or full screen. :O
I figured it out. Eve apparently doesn't like being corralled into a desktop window. Running it in true full-screen (or normal windowed mode) solved the issue.
The only issue now is the flickering pointer. I remember I had the same issue a while back when I played WoW under Linux. The pointer would flicker when the mouse was set to Hardware control, but was smooth as silk when I just changed it to "Software Mouse". I don't see any similar option under Eve though...
One other thing, since we have a dev cruising this forum. I ran across this article this morning about a WoW user who got summarilly banned from the game for running it under Linux with a Logitech keyboard. It's not entirely clear whether it was the keyboard or the Linux or some combination thereof (It's also suggested that Blizzard spyware^H^H^H^H^H^H anti-cheat software through up a red flag for not being able to see the normal windows environment.
Can we get a definitive statement from CCP that running Eve under Linux is not a bannable offense? Obviously, I don't expect CCP to support linux (though, it'd be really nice), actively banning it is another thing entirely...
Oveur who is the LEAD developer for CCP posted here with thoughts on linux, etc. If they had a problem with Cedega, I would think it would have happened right there. As it is, I've been testing EVE via cedega for several months, and along with the 'gang' down in the tech forum, we have been posting results and assisting each other with problems and have had no issues....well other than crashes right and left. lol.
Capsicum (gm) has even cleaned a couple linux threads and posted useful bits.
Now with 5.1.1 the only crashes are the ones I'm inducing on purpose with funky rez changes and such to stress test. EVE is running beautifully* under cedega at this point. I will also point out that at the fanfest the devs were asked about transgaming, and at that point they indicated they would be talking with them about getting eve working better.
The real gotcha regarding 3rd party stuff and getting banned is macroing. Cedega is just using another OS to play. bigggggg difference.
*by "beautifully" I mean stable. There still needs to be some rez change work done, as well as perhaps some tweaking with the windowed mode which loses more fps than it should (imho).
Another bug that hasn't been squashed is the invalid corp employment times, as well as the agression timer which indicate huge and incorrect numbers.......although the agression timer does work as it should. Its just not dispalying correctly. --these aren't show stoppers though, merely minor annoyances at this point.
"No power in the 'verse can stop us now!" |
Fringey
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:01:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Fringey on 16/03/2006 11:07:56
After reaching the 'IE is more secure' comments I'm now assuming he's on MS's payroll, rather than being a troll.
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Redundancy
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:56:00 -
[87]
Oveur's title is actually 'Producer', and Capsicum is a volunteer (not GM).
I've personally had bad experiences in the past (yes, several years ago) with a linux distro, and I can't see myself investing the effort to try it out again any time soon (especially given the bewildering array of choices and advocates for every distro) with the investment of software, experience and convenience I have in Windows, but if it's what you like to use, and Eve works for you, then I can't see that as anything other than positive (it's not like it affects my use of Windows negatively...).
I can't see that it's worth flaming *anyone* about their choice in operating system. You have to respect that there's plenty of issues with room for different views, and plenty of situations and preferences that differ from your own. There's also some good reasons why developers choose Windows and DirectX.
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Kuolematon
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:46:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Fringey
Edited by: Fringey on 16/03/2006 11:07:56
After reaching the 'IE is more secure' comments I'm now assuming he's on MS's payroll, rather than being a troll.
You talking to me? Remmeber, friendly fire DOES happen  (Joking!).
I'm not on ms payroll but I do wish I could be. I like MS software but you must understand that they cannot do everything but in admins point of view, centralized control is far more better in windows world than in linux world.
Unnerf Amarr!!
"Save yourselves........sell out and NAP the 5" ¬ gfasobek |
Rose Kolodny
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:49:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Redundancy
There's also some good reasons why developers choose Windows and DirectX.
As many good reasons why developers should provide a Linux client.
Give me the code, I'll do it for you for free... :P.
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Uther Doull
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Posted - 2006.03.16 14:04:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Rose Kolodny
Originally by: Redundancy
There's also some good reasons why developers choose Windows and DirectX.
As many good reasons why developers should provide a Linux client.
actually, no
this has nothing to do with wich OS is best, it's just statistics plain and simple.
if you are a game developer that wants his product to be used by as many ppl as possible while still being cost effective, and 1 OS has a market share of like +90%, then developing for any OS other then the biggest will automatically be a lower priority
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