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Esotera
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:43:00 -
[1]
Still seen no time frame or answer to this apart from "its not easy"....
Come on guys we all love the game but this has been know about for months now before RMR was released... And all of you that say that the ships are still great well they can be if they are used not as intended.. when you have a ship setup as a CO with cyno on and can not use it tbh sucks :(
I know you have loads to do and I will not post again the reply from way back from the bug report made saying you where aware and fixing it.
Please make my lovely falcon useable.
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George X
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:58:00 -
[2]
/signed.
Would it be possible to have an estimate on the "fix" please?
...the ancients are coming back... |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:02:00 -
[3]
Working on it, still no fix sadly.
And are you honestly going to tell me that a ship that can warp while cloaked and gets to bonus to jammers is not useful? If you do then I can fly them and would be happy to take it off your hands 
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Bugboom
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:16:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Bugboom on 16/03/2006 12:16:43
grrrr sorry
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Swordstake
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:17:00 -
[5]
lol not saying its not usefule but I have a CO for doing that with... Looking forward to it Tuxford once its fixed just nice to get a good response for a change thanks....
PS. when is the wing commander skill coming out
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.16 16:00:00 -
[6]
"Working on it, still no fix sadly."
If this is such difficult issue to fix, maybe instead these ships could be given some other sort of bonus/feature that actually does work, and is still useful for something..?
I mean, this whole 'cyno field and cloak' thing is more of a gimmick when firing up the cyno roots you on the spot and shows where you are to everyone EVE-wide. Makes more sense to use disposable frigate rigged for speed for this kind of things, anyway, than 150 mil worth ship ^^;
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Baun
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Posted - 2006.03.17 01:14:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: j0sephine
"Working on it, still no fix sadly."
If this is such difficult issue to fix, maybe instead these ships could be given some other sort of bonus/feature that actually does work, and is still useful for something..?
I mean, this whole 'cyno field and cloak' thing is more of a gimmick when firing up the cyno roots you on the spot and shows where you are to everyone EVE-wide. Makes more sense to use disposable frigate rigged for speed for this kind of things, anyway, than 150 mil worth ship ^^;
Its attractive to use a cloakable ship because they can get to where you want to deploy the cyno.
The cyno ship isnt all that vulnerable (except to smartbombs I guess) because if it logs while the cyno field is on it dissapears as soon as it runs out.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Kage Getsu
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Posted - 2006.03.17 01:19:00 -
[8]
I'd like a dev to reassure me that the problem is deeper than the Cynosural Generator module being an ugly hack of the Cloaking Device code.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 05:30:00 -
[9]
"The cyno ship isnt all that vulnerable (except to smartbombs I guess) because if it logs while the cyno field is on it dissapears as soon as it runs out."
Except this sounds like exploit, to be honest... as i don't think devs had intention to allow people safely log out while invulnerable thanks to the running cyno generator.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: j0sephine
"Working on it, still no fix sadly."
If this is such difficult issue to fix, maybe instead these ships could be given some other sort of bonus/feature that actually does work, and is still useful for something..?
I mean, this whole 'cyno field and cloak' thing is more of a gimmick when firing up the cyno roots you on the spot and shows where you are to everyone EVE-wide. Makes more sense to use disposable frigate rigged for speed for this kind of things, anyway, than 150 mil worth ship ^^;
Uh... why? If you run it as a cloaker you already have four bonuses. What's the justification for giving it a fifth?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 20:35:00 -
[11]
Edited by: j0sephine on 17/03/2006 20:36:21
"Uh... why? If you run it as a cloaker you already have four bonuses. What's the justification for giving it a fifth?"
These ships get role bonus:
"Role Bonus: 200-unit reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration."
... which is supposed to support the idea of ship that skulks around and sets up cyno fields. Since devs can't find a way to actually make this originally intended role functional (i.e. you can either skulk or set up fields) ... just thought maybe it could be replaced with something different, and the role bonus changed to reflect this...
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.03.17 21:52:00 -
[12]
Yeah, but... why? Ok, the role bonus they were given doesn't work with one of the other bonuses. Yeah? Ok, you could argue that that makes it "broken". I... don't see the problem in ship balance terms with this. It still has four working bonuses. Granted it can't fill one of the specialist roles that CCP wanted it to have but most ships don't have role bonuses at all. I don't see the justification for finding them another special role just because their current one doesn't work out properly.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.18 02:40:00 -
[13]
"Ok, the role bonus they were given doesn't work with one of the other bonuses. Yeah? Ok, you could argue that that makes it "broken". I... don't see the problem in ship balance terms with this. It still has four working bonuses. Granted it can't fill one of the specialist roles that CCP wanted it to have but most ships don't have role bonuses at all. I don't see the justification for finding them another special role just because their current one doesn't work out properly."
Let's say the HAC resistances are actually broken from the day HACs are implemented in the game, and the devs don't quite know how to fix it. Would you still argue it's okay to leave these ships in their dysfunctional state, because their bonuses other than these hard coded 'role' resistances are working fine... so it doesn't really matter if their current role (hard to kill cruisers) isn't quite working out and there's no sign when it's going to be fixed, if ever..? ^^;
it's exactly the same thing, except HACs don't have it actually spelt out in their description: "Role bonus: x% to whatever shield/armour resistances"...
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:35:00 -
[14]
"Bonuses aren't working. Does it unbalance the ship?
Yes:
Fix them or give them new ones
No:
Bothered?"
If the HAC resist bonuses were broken, HACs would suck. This would require a fix ASAP. Force Recon ships, on the other hand, still work just peachy as combat ships. I don't see a balance problem here, and I don't see a pressing need to shoehorn them into another role. After all, the Combat Recons have no extra bonuses and they seem to be fine too...
I'm not arguing that it wouldn't be nice to have another bonus, I just don't see it as being in any way necessary. I think the problem does need to be fix, and it'd be cool if they could be used as proper cloaking cyno ships, but I really don't see the need to think up another specialist role to shoehorn them into.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.18 16:07:00 -
[15]
"but I really don't see the need to think up another specialist role to shoehorn them into."
Am not saying this is something necessary. But if CCP saw it fit to actually give them one in the first place, then just suggesting this as perhaps alternate solution to leaving these ships broken (when compared to what they were intended to be) for god knows how long.
Incidentally, your comments about this not being much of issue because it does not unbalance them and whatnot only confirms what i said -- that this original 'role' devised for these ships is next to useless to begin with (since it not working doesn't in practice affect the ship performance in any manner) ... so only more of reason to rethink the role these ships are supposed to fulfill, if they are actually supposed to have one, perhaps...
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.03.19 01:48:00 -
[16]
I don't think the role's useless, I just think it's a, well, bonus. It doesn't affect the ship's PvP credentials at all, it's just an extra thing which the ship is good at in very specific circumstances.
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Darmed Khan
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Posted - 2006.03.19 09:20:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tuxford
And are you honestly going to tell me that a ship that can warp while cloaked and gets to bonus to jammers is not useful?
Your argument is flawed, as the Rapier doesn't get any bonuses to jammers 
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Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.03.19 10:36:00 -
[18]
just levae it as is
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.03.19 22:50:00 -
[19]
Those ships have been told to be able to do exactly that. Sneak into position and activate the Cynosural field. I asked if that meant that they are there to be 150million cloaked warping throwaway jumpdrive target, the answer in blue text has been: "Well, yes. Exactly." with a producer chuckle following the statement.
Currently they are not. At least not as long as the cynosural fields are in the cloak group of modules. They fall short of their destination halfway through.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2006.03.20 01:10:00 -
[20]
Fix it or find another use for the ship.
But I suggest you fix it, and soon, because it's important. 
Learn what it means to be Caldari - www.omertasyndicate.com |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tachy
Those ships have been told to be able to do exactly that. Sneak into position and activate the Cynosural field. I asked if that meant that they are there to be 150million cloaked warping throwaway jumpdrive target, the answer in blue text has been: "Well, yes. Exactly." with a producer chuckle following the statement.
Currently they are not. At least not as long as the cynosural fields are in the cloak group of modules. They fall short of their destination halfway through.
I think the chuckle probably indicated irony.
As to "find another use", have you ever tried using one of these things in combat? They have another use, and it's "being totally awesome for solo PvP".
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MoTiOnXml
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Posted - 2006.03.21 09:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
I don't see the justification for finding them another special role just because their current one doesn't work out properly.
Lets keep this one for posterity. Its a regular pearl. 
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.03.21 12:22:00 -
[23]
They already have a general one - they don't need a special one too. If the logistics bonuses on a Logistics ship were broken then they'd need fixing or replacing, because your average Logistics ship is pretty much useless for anything other than logstics work. Force Recons, on the other hand, are already the perfect pirate ship and exceedingly useful for fleet PvP to boot - they don't need to have a "special" role assigned too.
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Chain Gang
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Posted - 2006.03.21 12:42:00 -
[24]
The idea behind the Force Recons was ...
a) To move behind enermy lines and active Cynofields
b) The reduction in Fuel Needed to Operate (jump to 3 jumps instead of a single in a frigate)
So either fix the ship ..... after all its only been 5 Months (since testing)!!!!
or
Make a frigate with a 10k top speed and insta warp but your excuses are getting boring now !!
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.03.21 13:32:00 -
[25]
a) is apparently incorrect, or at least largely pointless, as outlined [url=http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=reply&threadID=311875]here[/url], as a Cyno field is not supposed to give you any kind of additional protection and thus "sneaking in" a 100m+ ship is a bit silly.
Given the comments in that thread, TBH I don't see the point of the cyno bonus at all. Fuel is easy to get and the duration reduction isn't nearly large enough to justify making use of it. Rather than continue with all these daft arguments it makes more sense IMO just to scrap the bonus completely, and possibly give it to the "scout" T1 frigates instead.
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Jak'ai
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Posted - 2006.03.21 14:19:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jak''ai on 21/03/2006 14:21:02
So if the apparent "bug" that Force Recon ships are invulnerable while generating a field is fixed - it pretty much guarentees the ship won't be used for it's intended purpose. May as well rename it "Pirate Sloop" and try again.
There is no reasonable way that a cruiser with a warpable beacon can be protected by a fleet. If it could, there's little point in having the ship be a covert ops, as the attacking fleet already has superiority in-system anyway. You can run all the EW you want - it won't survive most engagements and thus doesn't justify the pricetag.
If the ship is to be usable, keep the invulnerability but make it so the jump portal only opens in the last 30s of the activation duration. That way, if it's a beachhead effect you're going for, you'd need a fleet there to protect the jump-in point, or risk there being a big welcoming commitee for your dreads/carriers.
This way the force recon ship can sneak past a camp or something if needed, but because of the duration reduction is still preferred to a cheap frigate for generating the field.
Frankly - while you're at it, I'd suggest that instead of having a warpable beacon, a cyno field should generate a system message indicating a cyno field has been detected. Let the defending fleet track it down with scan probes.
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Mantalari Altis
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Posted - 2006.03.23 12:40:00 -
[27]
OK, here's my pass on this. Force recon ships in general are supposed to be cruisers that cloak. That's why they have the reduction in CPU to cloaking devices, so you can fit a covert ops cloak and be stealthy. They are also clearly supposed to be able to generate cyno fields, else why have a bonus to reduce the amount of ozone required.
Now I could maybe understand why you might not want to let the ship cloak and generate the cyno field atthe same time. But why would you want to make it so that if you simply fit both modules at the same time that niether would function at all?
All this seems to come down to the fact that cyno fields have een implemented as part of the cloaking device family and that there is for some reason a restriction on activating a cloaking devie while you have more than one fitted. My question is why? And isn't the fix to simply remove this silly restriction?
Where exactly does the game break if I were to fit two cloaking devices to my ship and want to activate one?
If there is some problem with my having both cloaks fitted and both _active_ at the same time, then restrict activation while another is active. My guess is that this is already the case. Remove the seemingly pointles restriction on having two cloaks fitted and this cyno/cloak issue goes away.
Speaking as someone that has actually gone to the trouble to train the skills and buy the ship, and the field generator and the cloaking device only to find out that there is a bug that will supposedl be fix and then further find out that it may not be fixed at all... well that kinda ticks me off a bit. |
Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2006.03.28 08:18:00 -
[28]
I like Mantalari's analysis.
Bump.
Learn what it means to be Caldari - www.omertasyndicate.com |
James Britanicus
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Posted - 2006.03.29 12:56:00 -
[29]
As I have said in another forum, the whole idea behind the force recon is flawed. Well not flawed but worthless in that you are stuck at a warpable object totally vunerable. You can be killed and the cyno field shut down almost instantly.
If you believe that you are about to be invaded watch for cyno fields and fly to it in your smartbomber tier 1 BS. Kill the cov ops hac lite and shut down the cyno field.
Loss to you possibly 1 smartbomber, loss to enemy, 1 Force recon with at least 60 mill in mods (cov ops 35-50 mil and cyno field 4- 10 mil plus others like resistance amps etc)
Plus you now have a carrier or 2 stuck inyour system as the route out has been closed in the death of the forcerecon.
I for one will use a merlin (insert frig of choice) with a cyno and a tank full of LO. However I will BM the route to give a greater probability of success to my mission.
I admit that I have not tested this theory in it's entirety, however I believe it to be sound.
This in fact reduces the Force Recon to simply a covert HAC lite.
That brings about many more interesting options, so DEV's either fix the problem or make a different bonus for the Force Recon like a probe specialist ship with great probe bonus's. That would make more sence.
****************************************************************
He thinks he is Uber, if you don't believe me, just ask him :)
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Xiau Bing
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Posted - 2006.04.02 23:02:00 -
[30]
Why are you guys so angry about the fleet recons?
I own a arazu myself and was angry as i found out about that bug myself, but than i realized the real intention of the devs.
its another extremly expensive tool for moving cap ships making it impossible to play around cap ships for single players or small groups of them.
its like a Booster charge... just a lil more expensive....
so here is my scenario:
Get into a system with fleet or without. Open cynfield. Hope the cap ship jumps through before anything warps to you ( in the first 30-40 secs ) getting killed by a fof missle or smartbomb... getting another recon ship (out of the belly of the jumped in carrier maybe? ) and move to next system to do the same thing again....
well here are some not needed bonus:
improved resistance
ew thingy bonus
time bonus for cyn field
cloak bonus
warpdisruptor bonus ( what for ? so the smartbomb / fof bs cant run? )
weapon damagebonus
mhh thats it already....
y should someone fit a smartbomb or fof missiles? well ... very simple.... if i know my enemy has cap ships i want to limit their ability to travel thus i have a specialized group of pilots destroying cyn field generators hoping they will run out on them.
so ... well but at a base price of 14mil you really get a good ship which could assist in fights ... but i think thats what the combat recon is for... if i want to find ships or set slings etc. i take a cov ops frig...
mhhh... the good thing is you dont have to spend that much isk on liquid ozone anymore.. that will pay off in the long run ... still to expensive even with all those macro miners out there... and there are still alot look at kehour for example.
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