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Neon Genesis	Posted - 2006.03.17 14:44:00 - [61] Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis Originally by: Darpz yeah I agree I didn't see the point tbh, hopefully blasters will get some love though i dont get this blaster moan, ever blasterthron pilot ive gone up against webbed me to hell and had no trouble hitting me whatsoever. and the point was that tachyons only did 1% more dps than a mega beam, hence the boost. Sacrifices you make compared to megapulses with no extra rewards? Given the lack of versatility of Blasters, they really should have a very worthwhile damage output, atm they don't compared to other turrets. There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.03.17 14:57:00 - [62] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 17/03/2006 15:00:15 Tbh, I don't get the tach changes either. Sure, hard to fit, sure, too little difference with megabeams. But, in any setup that is NOT a compromise between doing damage and tanking tachs > * and megabeams > 350mm and 1200mm already. I don't see where it makes sense to fly anything else then an apoc or geddon into fleet combat now tbh. The one has superb suvivability and good dps and the other does short range-style dps at 80km. Apoc have some slots for EW, while geddon is just THE damagedealer ingame. Tell me where the sense in that is ? tbh, I always assumed the dps ranking for medium-long range was like: mega > geddon > apoc > temp But it seems that even withuot extra lubbing for the tach its already like this: geddon > apoc > mega > temp Where's the logic in that ? And where's the logic in boosting that ? I know, resistances, EM and termal damage. Tell me, what's the difference against an average 1x adaptive nano BS + 1x explosive BS tank ? Power to the players !
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.17 15:07:00 - [63] "I don't see where it makes sense to fly anything else then an apoc or geddon into fleet combat now tbh." I can only hope this sort of thinking will spread. Nothing better than enemy fleet that you are guaranteed to resist in 50-75% ;s
Nafri	Posted - 2006.03.17 15:19:00 - [64] Originally by: j0sephine "I don't see where it makes sense to fly anything else then an apoc or geddon into fleet combat now tbh." I can only hope this sort of thinking will spread. Nothing better than enemy fleet that you are guaranteed to resist in 50-75% ;s nowadays you will probably just face the tech2 long range ammo anyway
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.17 15:28:00 - [65] "nowadays you will probably just face the tech2 long range ammo anyway" Aye but as long as it's all laser boats and until explosive crystals are in game, bring it in xD
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.03.17 15:32:00 - [66] Tech 2 ammo should have done neat stuff like have webifier and scrambler properties, you know... to similate actually hitting someone's engines etc. As it is... its a range game with penalty to another system. We see how missiles worked out... I can't say I don't see apocs being king whizbang for another year for all around ships. While I wouldn't say its going to be the end all PvP king... it will continue being one of the most owned / piloted ships in tha game. Hell I have 4 characters that can fly them if that is saying anything. And while I have Matari BS 5 and the others at 4... I still fly amarr tech most of the time now unless doing missions which my phoon is king atm. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.03.17 15:36:00 - [67] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 17/03/2006 11:14:02 As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater. It makes sense to give them a slight boost. So, where's the option for the other races to have a very high fitting weapon with a mad DPS and better stats? Although even if they did release them, other races wouldn't be able to fit them since Amarr and Caldari also get the best fitting stats for their respective fittings :S There used to be a sig here, but I got bored of it.
dazedandconfused	Posted - 2006.03.17 15:43:00 - [68] Originally by: Crellion Originally by: dazedandconfused Originally by: Crellion They allready outdamage 425 rails and 1400 aries in all situations and you want to further increase their DPS... with a free extra dmg mod???? For Christs sake... if you want to make them better than megabeams balance megabeams... I mean rly Apoc tanks better than Mega and Tempest and has allready marginally better DPS now you give it a bit more? Please explain why this makes 0 (zero) sense... Megabeams are already balanced, so how would balancing them fix the problem? Tachyons are very hard as well to fit. The Apoc has marginally better DPS than the Mega and Tempest? I doubt that very much. What you have said makes zero sense because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about . You can go on dounbting it and thinking I have no clue... or you can have a look at Naughty boys charts... or you can test yourselves if you have the appropriate skills and you corpmates also ... we have and I have... What I posted (both the OP and the latter large reply) are based on facts. Your answer is based on the "fact" that you sincerely doubt what I say and on the "fact" that I have no idea what I am talking about... Well done you win eve. In fact the only error in my statements is in the second post where I said that I assumed that 1200 do much less dmg than 1400s but I said I assume because I hant looked into it and it appears that I might have been wrong about this. In any event this changes not 1 iota the veractiy of my crtitique on the error of uberising tachyons. If you post to post... its fine I guess. If you want people to pay attention to what you say make sure you "know" and dont "believe". I win eve? wonderful :p To be honest I don't fly an Apoc. My brother flys amarr battleships, though, yet he prefers a geddon. Anyways, seeing him in action, damage wise mega beams still are a much better choice, and while doing less damage per gun, one can fit more of them to counter that issue. The only real advantage I see to tachyons is their range, though my brother can get over 175km range with mega IIs and aurora crystals. The fitting and energy cost on tachyons vs 425 or 1400 is rediculously different too. How is an apoc going to tank better than the temp or mega with tachyons fitted? It's a solid tank or tachyons, bottom line, and while I may be guessing, I believe the mega a temp gain the lead in terms of damage if tachyons are taken out of the picture. The apoc might be able to fit more guns, but no rof bites heh. The apoc gets no damage bonuses of any type. In terms of uberdmg, the geddon holds the lead, and changing tachyons from 4.25 to 4.5 is not going to affect the true damage dealing side of amarr, for I don't know of anyone who fits tachyons on a geddon and if I did I would slap them silly :P. The tachyon apoc user might be getting a boost, but who cares? The geddon is still king. Ultimately I don't see the point of writing a thread titled Tachyons: Tuxford you _)(&&. Based on fact or not, it seems to me you're clearly overreacting. Even if you were given the correct reason to react, that's the wrong way to do it. You must be professional, right? This big smile is just for you, buddy :P
Forsch	Posted - 2006.03.17 15:44:00 - [69] Originally by: Tuxford The damage output has been increased slightly, the tech 1 from 4.25 to 4.5. So suddenly Tachyons are mad DPS? You guys argue about something pretty insignificant. Keep your energy for the stuff that is really broke. The devs probably checked the numbers and realized not many people were using tachyons, with good reason. A small boost really is in order. They still are hard as hell to fit and still eat tons of cap. Yes, amarr ships are using one (out of two) bonus to work against that. ________________________________________________________________ Forsch Defender of the empire
dazedandconfused	Posted - 2006.03.17 15:51:00 - [70] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Tuxford The damage output has been increased slightly, the tech 1 from 4.25 to 4.5. So suddenly Tachyons are mad DPS? Yes, the end is near, nerf tachyons!!! wahahaa Just kidding by the way, bored atm .
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:04:00 - [71] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Tuxford The damage output has been increased slightly, the tech 1 from 4.25 to 4.5. So suddenly Tachyons are mad DPS? You guys argue about something pretty insignificant. Keep your energy for the stuff that is really broke. The devs probably checked the numbers and realized not many people were using tachyons, with good reason. A small boost really is in order. They still are hard as hell to fit and still eat tons of cap. Yes, amarr ships are using one (out of two) bonus to work against that. I think they should be boosted higher tbh. But at the same time the 1200/1400 should recieve the same looking at. There is a clear difference between the 1200 and 1400 guns... unlike the Mega/Tach ( and hell the geddon vs apoc while you are at it ) but when you loot at the 1400 vs Tach or the 1400 vs 425mm the 1400 looses its role.... especially against 425mm. Any changes to the 1400 should be accompanied with 1200 changes to not broaden the gap of performance even higher than it is already. There is room for improvement on the Tach's damage profile as well. 1200 II == 1400 I. 350 II == 425 I Mega II >>> Tach I I also think Laser owners benefit more from Cap Injectors because they don't use much cargo for ammo. So infact they in many ways great fleet ships that can last over 2 minutes. A ?, which might be stupid, is the tach change going to cascade up through the meta and tech 2s? Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Zarks	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:36:00 - [72] 1. Both geddon and apoc got one of their ship bonuses used for decreased cap usage. 2. Apoc gets no dmg bonus at all. 3. Both tempest and mega gets dual dmg bonus (yes I count tracking as dmg bonus). 4. Tachyons should do more damage per base then both 1400mm and 425mm because why would amarr users ever fit beam otherwise??? (they both got better total range and lesser fitting reqs) 5. If you don¦t get all the above don¦t post in this thread anymore. ___________________________________________________ Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available.
Zarks	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:42:00 - [73] Also there is combat beside fleet battles everyone in this thread seems to be obcessed about. If you fit 8 tachyon II on apoc in different situations you cant fit **** on your ship to go along with it. On a tempest or mega with maxed guns on slots you can still actually have some useful items on the rest of the slots. Also 1/2 high slots remaining arent useless as alot seem to think. Get over it. ___________________________________________________ Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available.
Robotek Hybrid	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:48:00 - [74] ravens/missiles pwn you all anyway... usefull info in this thread cuz im training an alt for amarr stuff I think but now... I dunno I think ill stay with amarr cuz they gots other cool stuff besides tachs and apocs BM-C is recruiting!
Wulfgard	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:06:00 - [75] So the marginal increase DPS for Tachyons is to make up for removing T2 explosive crystals? Hey, laserophobic mob, what are you moaning about?
dalman	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:22:00 - [76] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: j0sephine "wonder when its worth to fit tachs on the scorp again " Weren't you saying in the other thread just couple days ago Scorpion sucks firepower wise because she doesn't have the grid to mount even 425's... yet now you turn around and apparently find her fine grid-wise to mount turrets that take 60% more grid each? :/ You never flown scorps 2003? Back when you could abuse them in the SPVD style? Yaarrr! Bring back teh laser-ravens ^^ that's 2 tachyons + 2 meta heavy beams + 4 launchers with cruise. (and it's from october 2003 I think) Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Nafri	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:23:00 - [77] Originally by: Zarks 1. Both geddon and apoc got one of their ship bonuses used for decreased cap usage. 2. Apoc gets no dmg bonus at all. 3. Both tempest and mega gets dual dmg bonus (yes I count tracking as dmg bonus). 4. Tachyons should do more damage per base then both 1400mm and 425mm because why would amarr users ever fit beam otherwise??? (they both got better total range and lesser fitting reqs) 5. If you don¦t get all the above don¦t post in this thread anymore. lasers have built in damage bonus. Geddon had double damage bonus, apoc a single damage bonus. Projectiles are made for ships with a single ROF bonus, the Damage bonus is the second bonus, which just a few matari ships have.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:32:00 - [78] "^^ that's 2 tachyons + 2 meta heavy beams + 4 launchers with cruise. (and it's from october 2003 I think)" Yeah, Raven actually had something you could call a grid, back then ^^
gron alt	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:44:00 - [79] i used to fly a t1 gedden into "very risky" combat over a t2 megathron since i got more tracking out of the gedden and about the same damage which ment it was very cheap. for anti crusier/frig i would go with the gedden with 7 t2 tachs in high, for anti BS i would go with the megathron. the extra range on the megathron for me made it worth useing over the gedden, when we did sniping i would sit 180km away knowing that most laser users wount be able to hit me back, that was my justification for the 30%? less damage. but with the t2 range ammo it removes that totally and there is no point useing the mega/tempepest over a gedden with its higher tracking and DPS. tbh it was overpowered to start with and now is just that little bit more uber. and WTF are people talking about a sniper apoc????? dont you people know you get a lot more damage out of a gedden, more drones to kill stuff that gets close to you. tier 1 so is cheaper and u need to fit 7 guns over 8 which again is cost saving. the apoc shouldnt even be in this convo oh and most importantly, the reason i fit t2 tachs onto a gedden over megabeams was well 1: i could fit it 2: the range on tach t2 is longer than megabeams, thus you can hit further out or use more damaging crystals. 3: NERFFFFFFFFFFF
Kaylon Syi	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:49:00 - [80] Originally by: j0sephine "^^ that's 2 tachyons + 2 meta heavy beams + 4 launchers with cruise. (and it's from october 2003 I think)" Yeah, Raven actually had something you could call a grid, back then ^^ Back when I used to fit 1400 Is on an apoc with a lot of damage mods and sensor boosters and go to sydicate to camp stations D.N.A. were docked in... on this toon. If I was you... I'd run.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:50:00 - [81] I would just like to remind everyone who brings projectiles into this comparison that Matari is not a real word, even by fictional standards ¼_¼ Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Ysolde Xen	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:52:00 - [82] Originally by: DigitalCommunist I would just like to remind everyone who brings projectiles into this comparison that Matari is not a real word, even by fictional standards ¼_¼ I'm pretty sure I've seen the word used in PF, not just here.
Zarks	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:53:00 - [83] Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Zarks 1. Both geddon and apoc got one of their ship bonuses used for decreased cap usage. 2. Apoc gets no dmg bonus at all. 3. Both tempest and mega gets dual dmg bonus (yes I count tracking as dmg bonus). 4. Tachyons should do more damage per base then both 1400mm and 425mm because why would amarr users ever fit beam otherwise??? (they both got better total range and lesser fitting reqs) 5. If you don¦t get all the above don¦t post in this thread anymore. lasers have built in damage bonus. Geddon had double damage bonus, apoc a single damage bonus. Projectiles are made for ships with a single ROF bonus, the Damage bonus is the second bonus, which just a few matari ships have. What you yapping about? Please make some sense next time. ___________________________________________________ Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.03.17 18:09:00 - [84] Zarks, the argument that amarr bs have one bonus offset in whole by the high cap use of their weapons is a non-argument when comapred with ship/weapon combinations of other races. The megathron's tracking bonus offsets the lower standard tracking on 425's. It's damage bonus offsets the lower standard damage on 425's. The tempest's damage bonus' offset the lower standard damage on 1400's. Tach have one 'missing' damage bonus calculated in their base stats, as can been seen when comparing a no-damage bonus ship like the apoc with one with a damage bonus like the mega. They also have one tracking bonus built in, again as seen when comapring those two ships. The exceptions to this "overall when fitted it all comes down to roughly equal capabiltiies in range, dps and tracking" - rule are the tempest and the geddon. The tempest lacks the tracking bonus, which is also not built into 1400's. The compensation is teh dmage type variability and the high alpha strike. The geddon gets a damage bonus on top of the built in damage bonus, supposedly offset by the fact is doesn't have the total cap bonus (meaning it can't use tachs in long drawn out shooting matches much, which are pretty damn rare anyway), and by it's limited versatility (3 meds, low hp's). The problem I see with tachs isn't so much caused with this increase in damage bonus as well as the figures posted in this thread about the current situation. That increase isn't that high, I agree with that. And the tracking increase on the mega might make up for it anyway as far as comparing the mega with the apoc goes. But, I always thought the 425mm rails fitted on the mega was roughly equal to the tachs fitted on the geddon, and superior with a fair margin to the tachs fitted on the apoc. I'm surprised they are not, because the logic of them not being superior dps wise escapes me seeing the apoc and geddon have most if not all the other strengths relevant going for them as well. Exceptions are the damage types (I'd prefer thermal and kinetic just ever so slightly above EM and thermal atm), and the versatiliy of leftover lowslots in comparison with an apoc long range fleet fit. But, do those two pro's the mega gets offset the pro's the other two get. Notably the enormous damage potential of the geddon and the powerfull combination of survivability and dps-advantage the apoc gets in this settting ? It's indeed not a huge issue, but it does make me wonder why tuxford chooses to up the damage on tachs at all, when both tachs and megabeams are already superior in nearly every way to their counterparts. Power to the players !
dalman	Posted - 2006.03.17 18:11:00 - [85] Originally by: Zarks Originally by: Nafri Originally by: Zarks 1. Both geddon and apoc got one of their ship bonuses used for decreased cap usage. 2. Apoc gets no dmg bonus at all. 3. Both tempest and mega gets dual dmg bonus (yes I count tracking as dmg bonus). 4. Tachyons should do more damage per base then both 1400mm and 425mm because why would amarr users ever fit beam otherwise??? (they both got better total range and lesser fitting reqs) 5. If you don¦t get all the above don¦t post in this thread anymore. lasers have built in damage bonus. Geddon had double damage bonus, apoc a single damage bonus. Projectiles are made for ships with a single ROF bonus, the Damage bonus is the second bonus, which just a few matari ships have. What you yapping about? Please make some sense next time. What he's saying is that the cap use bonus is equal to the damagebonus. If you prefer it one could lower the base damage on lasers by 20%, reduce capuse by 50% and then change the cap-use bonus to the usual damage bonus. But instead lasers have 25ish % higher base damage and the ships gets a cap use bonus; the high cap use is intended to make other races refrain from using lasers, not the damage bonuses on their own ships. So, your first points are incorrect. The cap-use bonus let's you use a turret with higher damage, and with the rof bonus the geddon 'have' 2 damagebonuses. And with the new base damage mod on the tachyon, a tach fitted on an apoc will have almost exactly the same DPS as a 425mm rail on a mega. (but with 8 slots that means apoc can deal more damage). Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Crellion	Posted - 2006.03.17 18:15:00 - [86] Its not the fact that ammars wanna have their "I win button" that ****es me off... everybody wants that. Its the fact that the Devs are giving it to them that I really dont get. As for those that tryto compete the DPS and fitting reqs of the guns without looking at the DPS of a fitted ship or the base cap/bonuses/grid of the races BSs... just dont post rly...
Zarks	Posted - 2006.03.17 18:54:00 - [87] Dalman - yeah and as I said I want to see you use 8 tachyon II on apoc in any different situation than long range fleet battle and be useful. 7 425 II fits like a glove and you need 3!!! yes three rcu II on the apoc to fit 8 tach II. stop talking idiot speak and think instead ___________________________________________________ Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available.
Zarks	Posted - 2006.03.17 18:59:00 - [88] actually you can get away with 2 rcu now with that new skill, but you still don¦t need any to fit the mega. ___________________________________________________ Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.17 19:05:00 - [89] Originally by: DigitalCommunist I would just like to remind everyone who brings projectiles into this comparison that Matari is not a real word, even by fictional standards ¼_¼ in the time it took you to type that you could've google searched it and not made yourself look like an idiot linkage
sidthesexist	Posted - 2006.03.17 19:33:00 - [90] I do not support this idea one bit. I have an alt which flies apocs and with Gleams gets 700-800 damage per gun to an untanked target with tachyons. This is the most rediculous idea CCP has put forward this far. Tux you really need to change this one, and fast. ________ Shinra According to Freud, thinking the world revolves around you is a regression to childhood, when your world actually did revolve around you. - Wrangler Hijacked as requested, wubwoo - Billy the Fish

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