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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:10:00 -
[1]
They allready outdamage 425 rails and 1400 aries in all situations and you want to further increase their DPS... with a free extra dmg mod????
For Christs sake... if you want to make them better than megabeams balance megabeams... I mean rly
Apoc tanks better than Mega and Tempest and has allready marginally better DPS now you give it a bit more?
Please explain why this makes 0 (zero) sense...
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:12:00 -
[2]
No, no they dont. Railthron outdamages, outranges and outtracks tachypoc. And it doesent waste lots to fit the damn guns. Lets not talk of the tachgeddon, talk about a glass cannon.
----------------
Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
Darpz
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:12:00 -
[3]
yeah I agree I didn't see the point tbh, hopefully blasters will get some love though
The only good fix is a DEAD fix |
Anjerrai Meloanis
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:14:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Darpz
yeah I agree I didn't see the point tbh, hopefully blasters will get some love though
i dont get this blaster moan, ever blasterthron pilot ive gone up against webbed me to hell and had no trouble hitting me whatsoever.
and the point was that tachyons only did 1% more dps than a mega beam, hence the boost.
uh.
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Darpz
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:40:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis
Originally by: Darpz
yeah I agree I didn't see the point tbh, hopefully blasters will get some love though
i dont get this blaster moan, ever blasterthron pilot ive gone up against webbed me to hell and had no trouble hitting me whatsoever.
and the point was that tachyons only did 1% more dps than a mega beam, hence the boost.
its not the hitting thats the problem, its the cap use. when you need an injector to just keep your guns running thats a problem.
The only good fix is a DEAD fix |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Crellion
Please explain why this makes 0 (zero) sense...
It makes zero sense because you moaned without getting your facts straight.
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Krulla
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: keepiru
No, no they dont. Railthron outdamages, outranges and outtracks tachypoc. And it doesent waste lots to fit the damn guns. Lets not talk of the tachgeddon, talk about a glass cannon.
Let's see what Naughty Boy has to say about that, shall we?
This is with the current TQ values, against a target doing 100m/s transversal, with 400 sig radius.
Railathron vs Tachypoc
The Railathron slightly outdamages the Tachypoc at extreme ranges... but otherwise... apoc wins.
You could fit a couple of RCUs on a geddon, and fit 7 tachyons, and get even more damage, too.....
Respect the Domi. Or else.
SIG HIJACK!!11 RAWRR!!1- IMMY
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Krulla
Originally by: keepiru
No, no they dont. Railthron outdamages, outranges and outtracks tachypoc. And it doesent waste lots to fit the damn guns. Lets not talk of the tachgeddon, talk about a glass cannon.
Let's see what Naughty Boy has to say about that, shall we?
This is with the current TQ values, against a target doing 100m/s transversal, with 400 sig radius.
Railathron vs Tachypoc
The Railathron slightly outdamages the Tachypoc at extreme ranges... but otherwise... apoc wins.
You could fit a couple of RCUs on a geddon, and fit 7 tachyons, and get even more damage, too.....
It seems to me that we are now comparing ships and not guns in that graph.
An apoc fits 8 tachs while a megat has slots for 7 guns.
Is this a function of the gun or the ship it's attached to?
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:03:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 16/03/2006 19:03:44
Originally by: Darpz
Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis
Originally by: Darpz
yeah I agree I didn't see the point tbh, hopefully blasters will get some love though
i dont get this blaster moan, ever blasterthron pilot ive gone up against webbed me to hell and had no trouble hitting me whatsoever.
and the point was that tachyons only did 1% more dps than a mega beam, hence the boost.
its not the hitting/tracking thats the problem, its the cap use. when you need an injector to just keep your guns running thats a problem.
it IS the hitting, i couldnt care less about the cap usage...
"We brake for nobody"
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:05:00 -
[10]
right. so now what, tachs get a whole 2% or so damage boost. while the thron gets a.. what was it, 12.5% tracking boost? what seems to be the problem here, exactly?
----------------
Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
Krulla
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Posted - 2006.03.16 21:38:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Krulla on 16/03/2006 21:39:32
Originally by: keepiru
right. so now what, tachs get a whole 2% or so damage boost. while the thron gets a.. what was it, 12.5% tracking boost? what seems to be the problem here, exactly?
I wasn't claiming the tachpoc is overpowered, or that the Mega is crap. I think they are both very fine, and very balanced. Just that claiming that the Mega out damages, outranges, and outtracks the tachpoc is *******s.
Respect the Domi. Or else.
SIG HIJACK!!11 RAWRR!!1- IMMY
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2006.03.16 21:53:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Krulla
Edited by: Krulla on 16/03/2006 21:39:32
Originally by: keepiru
right. so now what, tachs get a whole 2% or so damage boost. while the thron gets a.. what was it, 12.5% tracking boost? what seems to be the problem here, exactly?
I wasn't claiming the tachpoc is overpowered, or that the Mega is crap. I think they are both very fine, and very balanced. Just that claiming that the Mega out damages, outranges, and outtracks the tachpoc is *******s.
What your graphs fail to show is that the railthron does outrange, and thus outdamages an Apoc. Because longer range = better ammo at similar range. That means that at long ranges, the Megathron does more damage because of its better ammo. To add to that, it's got more falloff and doesn't run out of cap halfway through his opponent's hitpoints either.
Yours,
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.03.16 21:56:00 -
[13]
Edited by: dalman on 16/03/2006 22:05:22
Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis
Originally by: Darpz
yeah I agree I didn't see the point tbh, hopefully blasters will get some love though
i dont get this blaster moan, ever blasterthron pilot ive gone up against webbed me to hell and had no trouble hitting me whatsoever.
Here is the real point then:
The one with long-range turrets should fit webber, not the blasterthron.
Blasters are designed to hit moving targets at close-range, but they don't, cause they have the worst tracking of all guns in the game at the range they're supposed to be used at.
-> blasterthron pilots needs to fit a webber they shouldn't have to fit.
Long range turrets on the other hand, their users should fit a webber as a defence if they end up in close-range fight as they know their guns aren't supposed to track there.
-> long-range pilots doesn't fit the webber they should have to fit, cause of over-confidence they'll stay out of close-range fights.
Also, the blasterpilot fit's a webber to prevent targets who don't have a webber to manuever their ships to minimize transversal velocity... in other words, the blasterpilots fits webber for defensive reasons...
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
SavageThrash
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Posted - 2006.03.16 22:01:00 -
[14]
Well, while all of you moan about the meg and apoc and there balance between tank and damage i am gonna take a little detour with the tempest.
Now the tempest has 6 guns, and to come anywhere near the damage of a railthron or apoc needs to have all gyros in the lows. Consider that is no long possbile, tempest pilots such as myself, fit as many damage mods as they can until the increase is so poor that they woul db ebetter off to fit a WCS. Minmatar ships prolly take the most amounts of training to be able to fly well (pre dmg mod nerf adv wep upgrades was needed to fit all 1400 and 5 dmg mods and pdu was still needed) Now atleast all you other bs pilots can fit your guns adn a semi tank with out a low slot aid.
The tempest was supposed to be an alpha strike ship, ie high dmg fast. For this high damage really fast we suffer in overall damage. I railthron will easily out damage a 1400 tempest. A mega geting 3 shots to the tempests one, considering you could still miss shots on the mega and have a better dps then a tempest. Now when a tempest pilot misses a shot thats like missing 3 rail shots. Seems a little unfair dont it. Even with good gunnery and tracking skills you still miss. I have over 6.5 mill in gunnery and i still miss shots. Now a tespest may miss 1 shot in a volley. Now does a mega miss 3 to 4 of its shots in 1 volley? I highly dought it and if it does its only very rarely. Hardley seems fair that also tempests have suffered a fair bit more then most other battle ships from this damage mod nerf considering that thats pretty much the only mods in the lows you used to fit on a tempest unless you wanted to fit an rcu or 2 to to fit a pathetically weak tank.
I dont want this to sound like a whine but in all honestly this is how it is.
Wewt |
Epsilon 1
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Posted - 2006.03.16 22:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Crellion
They allready outdamage 425 rails and 1400 aries in all situations and you want to further increase their DPS... with a free extra dmg mod????
For Christs sake... if you want to make them better than megabeams balance megabeams... I mean rly
Apoc tanks better than Mega and Tempest and has allready marginally better DPS now you give it a bit more?
Please explain why this makes 0 (zero) sense...
Sir, you have no clue. And you make 0 (zero) sense. WTS a clue 
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Krulla
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Posted - 2006.03.16 22:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Originally by: Krulla
Edited by: Krulla on 16/03/2006 21:39:32
Originally by: keepiru
right. so now what, tachs get a whole 2% or so damage boost. while the thron gets a.. what was it, 12.5% tracking boost? what seems to be the problem here, exactly?
I wasn't claiming the tachpoc is overpowered, or that the Mega is crap. I think they are both very fine, and very balanced. Just that claiming that the Mega out damages, outranges, and outtracks the tachpoc is *******s.
What your graphs fail to show is that the railthron does outrange, and thus outdamages an Apoc. Because longer range = better ammo at similar range. That means that at long ranges, the Megathron does more damage because of its better ammo. To add to that, it's got more falloff and doesn't run out of cap halfway through his opponent's hitpoints either.
Actually, NB's graphs take ammo types into account, hence the little "bumps" you see on the graph.
Again, I wasn't claiming either the apoc or mega are crap/overpowered, I was just claiming (and proving) that the statement "Railathron outdamages, outranges and outtracks Tachpoc" was not true.
Respect the Domi. Or else.
SIG HIJACK!!11 RAWRR!!1- IMMY
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Cersei
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Posted - 2006.03.16 22:16:00 -
[17]
Apoc tanks better? When it has to spend 2 damn slots on just fitting the tachyons? If we just compare long range fleet setups with 3 dmg mods and biggest guns, it has 2 slots for tanking. So does the Tempest. Arma has 3, Megathron has 4.
Any cap advantage the Apocalypse may have, is nullfied by the extreme cap use of Tachyons. For the Armageddon, it is a big fking disadvantage.
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.03.16 22:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: SavageThrash
Well, while all of you moan about the meg and apoc and there balance between tank and damage i am gonna take a little detour with the tempest.
Now the tempest has 6 guns, and to come anywhere near the damage of a railthron or apoc needs to have all gyros in the lows. Consider that is no long possbile, tempest pilots such as myself, fit as many damage mods as they can until the increase is so poor that they woul db ebetter off to fit a WCS. Minmatar ships prolly take the most amounts of training to be able to fly well (pre dmg mod nerf adv wep upgrades was needed to fit all 1400 and 5 dmg mods and pdu was still needed) Now atleast all you other bs pilots can fit your guns adn a semi tank with out a low slot aid.
The tempest was supposed to be an alpha strike ship, ie high dmg fast. For this high damage really fast we suffer in overall damage. I railthron will easily out damage a 1400 tempest. A mega geting 3 shots to the tempests one, considering you could still miss shots on the mega and have a better dps then a tempest. Now when a tempest pilot misses a shot thats like missing 3 rail shots. Seems a little unfair dont it. Even with good gunnery and tracking skills you still miss. I have over 6.5 mill in gunnery and i still miss shots. Now a tespest may miss 1 shot in a volley. Now does a mega miss 3 to 4 of its shots in 1 volley? I highly dought it and if it does its only very rarely. Hardley seems fair that also tempests have suffered a fair bit more then most other battle ships from this damage mod nerf considering that thats pretty much the only mods in the lows you used to fit on a tempest unless you wanted to fit an rcu or 2 to to fit a pathetically weak tank.
I dont want this to sound like a whine but in all honestly this is how it is.
[combat]Logics strikes your post, wrecking it totally.
Ok.
You are wrong.
Completely wrong.
1. 1400T2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.63*0.75)=0.389 normalized damagemod.
2. 425T2: 3.3/9.56=0.345 normalized damagemod.
1 * 44 = 17.12
2 * 48 = 16.56
Even with highest damage T1 ammo, a 1400 do more DPS than a 425. But due to 7vs6 turret slots the mega do more damage.
1 * 60 = 23.34 -> * 6 = 140.04
2 * 60 = 20.70 -> * 7 = 144.90 = =3.47% more.
The T2 ammo has same base damage. Which means the 1400 actually does alot more DPS than a 425.
And with 7 turrets instead of 6, the megathron does an 'OMGWTFBBWWHOPPING!!!oneoneone' 3.47% more damage per second.
Truely amazing, isn't it?
(and it's not like you could fit anything useful in that 7:th slot)
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Cuebick
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Posted - 2006.03.16 22:27:00 -
[19]
When a baby doesent get what he wants, he goes on whining about something someone else has..
Do you even use Tachs?
Why would you have anything to whine about?
I like it but I'm not making a thread about it.
____________________________________
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.16 22:34:00 -
[20]
"Even with highest damage T1 ammo, a 1400 do more DPS than a 425. But due to 7vs6 turret slots the mega do more damage."
Well, to be more exact...
'raw' damage comparison (max skills, 3 damage mods)
1400 mm II: 75.27 dps, 425 mm II: 72.76 dps
... but with reload time factored in:
1400 mm II: 68.37 dps, 425 mm II: 69.51 dps
that means it takes ~100+ sec into the fight for this advantage to actually kick in, though...
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Kaleeb
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Posted - 2006.03.16 22:35:00 -
[21]
I like my b-tron buggering up my cap etc, i dont want to tank like a poc either. I want a fast moving, bigtime close range damage dealer.
So no range bonuses, no cap bonuses (although i know this will happen), Nice tracking bonus, fitting reqs lowered and alittle more damage and i`m happy. 
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SavageThrash
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Posted - 2006.03.17 03:04:00 -
[22]
[combat]Logics strikes your post, wrecking it totally.
Ok.
You are wrong.
Completely wrong.
1. 1400T2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.63*0.75)=0.389 normalized damagemod.
2. 425T2: 3.3/9.56=0.345 normalized damagemod.
1 * 44 = 17.12
2 * 48 = 16.56
Even with highest damage T1 ammo, a 1400 do more DPS than a 425. But due to 7vs6 turret slots the mega do more damage.
1 * 60 = 23.34 -> * 6 = 140.04
2 * 60 = 20.70 -> * 7 = 144.90 = =3.47% more.
The T2 ammo has same base damage. Which means the 1400 actually does alot more DPS than a 425.
And with 7 turrets instead of 6, the megathron does an 'OMGWTFBBWWHOPPING!!!oneoneone' 3.47% more damage per second.
Truely amazing, isn't it?
(and it's not like you could fit anything useful in that 7:th slot)
Well mega still out damages the tempest so acutully want true no matter how little more dm git does. But in actul fights how many hits does a mega miss? I know that you aint gonan mis 3 to4 shots in a voley, tempest just has to miss one and thats equal to 3 of your shot. A mega will miss but it isnt gonna miss 3 times. Its alot more common for a mega to miss on and a tempest to miss one, but for you to lose as much damage to missing hits as a tempest i highly dought its possible.
So although your math looks oh so fantastic and i was true in the begging that a mega does do more dmg then a tempest, we lose alot mor edmg to missing hits.
Wewt |
Amerame
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Posted - 2006.03.17 04:37:00 -
[23]
The mega should outdamage the tempest and the apoc on the long run, do not forget that the tempest & apoc with tachyon do more insta damage than the megathron, which is quite an important edge in PvP.
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Lienzo
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Posted - 2006.03.17 04:52:00 -
[24]
Eh, there's no dmg mod mids, unless you count sensor boosters and using something besides short range ammo, so of course the Apoc is gonna do more damage.. over time.
Volley damage is still more important in most cases. RoF only counts if you still use 1 primary for a whole fleet. Apoc certainly can't make even a pretense at a tank with a full rack of tachs. Look at it for yourself under the quickfit tool if you can't fly it.
If you're talking about skirmishes, and in that case long range, why are you outnumbered to the point that you are scrambled?
Assault Missile Launcher Improvement
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: SavageThrash
[combat]Logics strikes your post, wrecking it totally.
Ok.
You are wrong.
Completely wrong.
1. 1400T2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.63*0.75)=0.389 normalized damagemod.
2. 425T2: 3.3/9.56=0.345 normalized damagemod.
1 * 44 = 17.12
2 * 48 = 16.56
Even with highest damage T1 ammo, a 1400 do more DPS than a 425. But due to 7vs6 turret slots the mega do more damage.
1 * 60 = 23.34 -> * 6 = 140.04
2 * 60 = 20.70 -> * 7 = 144.90 = =3.47% more.
The T2 ammo has same base damage. Which means the 1400 actually does alot more DPS than a 425.
And with 7 turrets instead of 6, the megathron does an 'OMGWTFBBWWHOPPING!!!oneoneone' 3.47% more damage per second.
Truely amazing, isn't it?
(and it's not like you could fit anything useful in that 7:th slot)
Well mega still out damages the tempest so acutully want true no matter how little more dm git does. But in actul fights how many hits does a mega miss? I know that you aint gonan mis 3 to4 shots in a voley, tempest just has to miss one and thats equal to 3 of your shot. A mega will miss but it isnt gonna miss 3 times. Its alot more common for a mega to miss on and a tempest to miss one, but for you to lose as much damage to missing hits as a tempest i highly dought its possible.
So although your math looks oh so fantastic and i was true in the begging that a mega does do more dmg then a tempest, we lose alot mor edmg to missing hits.
Yes, cause every time a tempest score one wrecking hit, the thron scores 3 wrecking hits in that volley
No, you're wrong on this issue too.
The expected value over time is the same, no matter.
Slower ROF means there will be more variation around the expected value, both up and down.
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
migwar
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:24:00 -
[26]
When comparing the apoc damage to a mega, also bear in mind the mega can carry more drones
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:26:00 -
[27]
Originally by: migwar
When comparing the apoc damage to a mega, also bear in mind the mega can carry more drones
Why? At tachyon beam range, drones are useless.
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
migwar
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 08:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: migwar
When comparing the apoc damage to a mega, also bear in mind the mega can carry more drones
Why? At tachyon beam range, drones are useless.
yes but surely the ships are balanced with more than 1 set up in mind.
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Bellac
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:38:00 -
[29]
Lets face facts though - Tachyons may in theory give big hits, but as they are difficult to fit they are very much underused.
Most people with laser turret skills use mega beam, or more usually mega pulse. This is due to the fact that you can dish more total damage with these smaller turrets. You can simply fit more of these smaller turrets to your ship.
I for one will be giving these turrets a run out in their new form, just to see how they now stack up.
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:44:00 -
[30]
Its pretty pathetic how half the whines aren't even based on facts, math or.. god forbid, experience! The gap between Tachyons and Mega Beam is ridiculously tiny for the obscene amount of cap and grid they take, not to mention lowered tracking. A boost is required, but I don't think Tuxford keeps in mind how pitifully short combat is, and why it got this way.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
Theron Gyrow
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:45:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Krulla
Edited by: Krulla on 16/03/2006 21:39:32
Originally by: keepiru
right. so now what, tachs get a whole 2% or so damage boost. while the thron gets a.. what was it, 12.5% tracking boost? what seems to be the problem here, exactly?
I wasn't claiming the tachpoc is overpowered, or that the Mega is crap. I think they are both very fine, and very balanced. Just that claiming that the Mega out damages, outranges, and outtracks the tachpoc is *******s.
You showed the facts on tracking and range, but you didn't touch the tracking yet. 
Unmodified tracking of tachyon beam: 0.0139205
Unmodified tracking of 425mm railgun: 0.009625
425mm railgun on Mega with the new 37.5% tracking bonus: 0.013234375.
Tachyons track better in all cases.
--
Gradient's forum |
migwar
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:51:00 -
[32]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Its pretty pathetic how half the whines aren't even based on facts, math or.. god forbid, experience! The gap between Tachyons and Mega Beam is ridiculously tiny for the obscene amount of cap and grid they take, not to mention lowered tracking. A boost is required, but I don't think Tuxford keeps in mind how pitifully short combat is, and why it got this way.
This is actually a good point, When i used to play WG40k, There was a thing called codex creep, every new race/weapon would be made slightly better than the preceeding one. Every 2 years ish the entire rule sets would change as the game had efectivly unbalanced itself, Balancing games longterm is very difficult.
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sidthesexist
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Posted - 2006.03.17 09:46:00 -
[33]
Funny how i realise people supporting this issue are apoc users :D
________
Shinra
According to Freud, thinking the world revolves around you is a regression
to childhood, when your world actually did revolve around you. - Wrangler
Hijacked as requested, wubwoo - Billy the Fish |
Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:20:00 -
[34]
It was to increase the burst damage of Tachs.
Lasers are supposed to be fast firing relatively hard hitting guns with medium to long range and with the best track,which they have. They require a higher damage mod tho due to the ease of armor tanking EM and Therm.
Projectiles are supposed to be big unweildy,Short range or Long range weapons that fire slow and hit hard as heck as have various different damage types,thus making them harder to tank.
Hybrids are supposed to be in between mixing the pros of the Projectiles along with better tracking,tho they have the draw backs of Lasers,two damage types and VERY cap intensive.
If you want to insta-pop things,be at EXTREMELY long range or do decent up close dps while having an ok tank,then Projectiles are your friend. But notice you fire ALOT slower then the other types of turrets.
If you want to be a all around good gunner that has more staying power where the opening salvos are less key,then Hybrid are the way to go.They fire fasterand track better then Projectiles but notice they follow their RP role and thats NOT to be tankers but be all out offensive ships.
Lasers are really the swiss army knives of Eve they can hit almost as hard as hybrids but they fire even faster,thus you get higher dps ((THE HIGHEST IN FACT)),they also have the most cap and their ship bonuses are geared to allow them to do two things at once,Tank and deal damage. At long range they are more accurate then the others due to their higher base tracking speeds and thus can eek out more hits at higher transversal velocities then the rest. But Lasers have one massive set back higher fall off then the rest meaning its easier to get under their guns as well as the guns use abhorrid amounts of cap up close so if your fighting a apoc super tanked vs. a nos domi ((even without EW)) the Domi wins.
Now I know everyone is going what about blasters. They could use a touch less cap but they need a range boost more then anything,if they could hit at 10-12km farther they would be ALOT more useful.
The generic ship designs are simple,
You have two races that can deal pretty good damage and tank
Then you have two races that can change damage types
Then you have two races geared for all out damage
From there its trying to balance it all,now can you see why it can be such a pain.
-----------------------------------------------
"Quick, bring me a beaker of wine,that I may wet my mind and say something clever." ~Aristophane
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Ishan Shade
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:49:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Ishan Shade on 17/03/2006 10:48:47
Originally by: Lucian Alucard
The generic ship designs are simple,
You have two races that can deal pretty good damage and tank
Caldari & amarr
Then you have two races that can change damage types
Caldari..... minmatar (not really since it's always explosive/kinetic, and you fubar your range+damage) + caldari using drones
Then you have two races geared for all out damage
hhmm Amarr and caldari? or did you mean they can't tank at all so they only use damage mods, unlike caldari that can tank + go for damage? then it would be minmatar and gallente
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:05:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 17/03/2006 11:14:02
As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater.
It makes sense to give them a slight boost.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:19:00 -
[37]
The last one is Minmatar and Gallente.
Caldari > Minmatar in sheild tanking
Amar > Minmatar in armor tanking
Amar > Gallente in Armor tanking
Minmatar > Gallente in sheild tanking
Everyone else > Caldari in armor tanking
Gallente and minmatar work best in straight damage configurations.
They are gank ships. They can use Ewar to support their role as gank ships tho and when done its freaking scary, hence Ew+nos+armor tanked Domi or a Ac Temp with multispecs,two nos,rcu2,2 t2 tracking enhancers,3 t2 gyros.
Old saying "They can't kill ya if they can't hit ya!".
The evening hand in pvp is Ew,thats the honest to goodness truth.
With the FOF nerf he who can not lock can not kill the rest is delegating drones to either jam,web or nuke the frigs.
Tachs need the boost as do blasters and on Megs they are getting a form of one but their main prblem is range,I can practically snipe a blasterthron with T2 Mega Pulse as compaired to the Thron who litterally has to sit on top of me. Blasters for pve purposes and for light tanking in solo and gank fleet ops need both a cap and grid useage reduction.
-----------------------------------------------
"Quick, bring me a beaker of wine,that I may wet my mind and say something clever." ~Aristophane
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:35:00 -
[38]
Originally by: sidthesexist
Funny how i realise people supporting this issue are apoc users :D
Of course. Apoc users are looking forward so they can finally say "hey, lets try tachyons instead of mega beams. they are harder to fit but they do a little more damage." as before there was not much reason to use them.
The increase isn't that much really. If you think tachyons are overpowered now, you should have complained about mega beams long ago.
________________________________________________________________
- Forsch
Defender of the empire
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:37:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: sidthesexist
Funny how i realise people supporting this issue are apoc users :D
Of course. Apoc users are looking forward so they can finally say "hey, lets try tachyons instead of mega beams. they are harder to fit but they do a little more damage." as before there was not much reason to use them.
The increase isn't that much really. If you think tachyons are overpowered now, you should have complained about mega beams long ago.
they had alphastrike, and were best shield killers nonpar. Also thy are much better fleet weapons than 425er rails. And I complained about mega beams long ago. Cause thy track way to well.
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Xeenon
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:41:00 -
[40]
yay, ~900dps in my tachogeddon with gleam after this change. Now the only thing left - are explosive crystals. If ccp introduce them, i'll be totally happy
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:41:00 -
[41]
Originally by: sidthesexist
Funny how i realise people supporting this issue are apoc users :D
I'd guess most people that have specialized in a covetor can't offer an informed opinion.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater.
As opposed to autocannons, where their top guns do exactly the same dps for less tracking and harder fitting.
tbh sometimes I don't know why I bother - after hearing that CCP likes to keep minmatar as the "underdogs" at the las vagas fanfest it seems there is no point arguing for needed boosts in certain areas as they want to keep them crap.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:55:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Rodj Blake
As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater.
As opposed to autocannons, where their top guns do exactly the same dps for less tracking and harder fitting.
tbh sometimes I don't know why I bother - after hearing that CCP likes to keep minmatar as the "underdogs" at the las vagas fanfest it seems there is no point arguing for needed boosts in certain areas as they want to keep them crap.
or oveur just telling "yeah, nerfing matari is the point here" 
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Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 11:56:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Rodj Blake
As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater.
As opposed to autocannons, where their top guns do exactly the same dps for less tracking and harder fitting.
tbh sometimes I don't know why I bother - after hearing that CCP likes to keep minmatar as the "underdogs" at the las vagas fanfest it seems there is no point arguing for needed boosts in certain areas as they want to keep them crap.
or oveur just telling "yeah, nerfing matari is the point here"
heh I had forgotten about that one 
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Rodj Blake
As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater.
As opposed to autocannons, where their top guns do exactly the same dps for less tracking and harder fitting.
tbh sometimes I don't know why I bother - after hearing that CCP likes to keep minmatar as the "underdogs" at the las vagas fanfest it seems there is no point arguing for needed boosts in certain areas as they want to keep them crap.
or oveur just telling "yeah, nerfing matari is the point here"
heh I had forgotten about that one
wonder when its worth to fit tachs on the scorp again 
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Wolverine PL
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Posted - 2006.03.17 12:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Darpz
yeah I agree I didn't see the point tbh, hopefully blasters will get some love though
You can be sure they will nerf them.
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gfgffdghgghg
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Posted - 2006.03.17 12:59:00 -
[47]
is this affecting t2 tachyons as well, or just t1 tachyons ? |
Crellion
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:10:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 17/03/2006 11:14:02
As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater.
It makes sense to give them a slight boost.
I chose to quote you because many idiots in here said things like oh no its not true Mega does more damage and ganeric all around sillyness and I cant reply to them without using uncivilised language.
Therefore I choose to answer this post that is thankfully SANE. Yes my friend. You are right. Tach perhaps needs to be balanced so that it is better against the megabeam. But how do you do that? By imbalancing the tachyons with every other weapon in the game? Why? If its an internal ammar issue ... well you have your cap and play within that.
Keep tachyons as they are, balanced with 425 rails and 1400 arties and change the megabeams as you see fit. Make the megabeams do as much damage as the 350 rails or the 1200 proj. or comparable.
The proposition to increase tachyon damage is fundamentally erred. Its like this:
(1) I whine about the poor dps of dual 250 rails compared against 350s and 425s. I get a comparative buff.
(2) Then a year later I get back on the forum whoring and say: Hey 1 second... fitting reqs for 425IIs are way higher... shouldnt I get more dps out of fitting them? and then I get a 425II buff.... and this can go on and on.
Essentially, as things stand atm, tachyons are balanced with 1400s and 425s (higher fittings but also higher basic numbers on ammar BSs, more cap use than 425s but at BS 5 same -I believe from old charts somebody with a math brain can confirm- and with slower rof and higher cap capacity apoc can actually use tachyons easier cap wise than a Mega can use 425s).
On top of that the ammar get the huge benefit that by fitting the second best weapon for range (megabeams) they get a huge tracking increase (same as all other races and a bit better I think) AND they lose HARDLY ANY DAMAGE, whereas 350s do much less than 425s and I assume 1400s do much more than 1200s.
SO if you look at the starting point that the TOP GUNS are equal then the second best of ammar is the best of all second bests. This hardly calls for a buff to their top gun also ffs.
Another way of putting Tux's "improvement" is this:
"While Megabeams vastly outdamage 350 rails and 1200 arties the Tachyons are not that uber compared to 425 rails and 1400 arties .... and we are now fixing this \0/!!!!!"
Well... gratz for a job well done Tux...
As for Ammar lovers and their huge argument that I "dont have a clue"... kk guyz now you powned me what can I say....
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Sin Angel
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:25:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Sin Angel on 17/03/2006 13:26:06
Originally by: Crellion
I chose to quote you because many idiots in here said things like oh no its not true Mega does more damage and ganeric all around sillyness and I cant reply to them without using uncivilised............
QTF imo
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:37:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sin Angel
Edited by: Sin Angel on 17/03/2006 13:26:06
Originally by: Crellion
I chose to quote you because many idiots in here said things like oh no its not true Mega does more damage and ganeric all around sillyness and I cant reply to them without using uncivilised............
QTF imo
well... its true innit?
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:45:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Rodj Blake
As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater.
As opposed to autocannons, where their top guns do exactly the same dps for less tracking and harder fitting.
tbh sometimes I don't know why I bother - after hearing that CCP likes to keep minmatar as the "underdogs" at the las vagas fanfest it seems there is no point arguing for needed boosts in certain areas as they want to keep them crap.
That mayde me cry ;(
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Slaveabuser
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:45:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 17/03/2006 13:45:48
Originally by: Crellion
As for Ammar lovers and their huge argument that I "dont have a clue"... kk guyz now you powned me what can I say....
Obviously you dont. I find it simply not worth fitting tachs anymore and I got all the essential skills maxed out. Tachyons use too much cap and powergrid, its redicilous.
Killing the Minmatars since 22480 AD |
dazedandconfused
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:48:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Crellion
They allready outdamage 425 rails and 1400 aries in all situations and you want to further increase their DPS... with a free extra dmg mod????
For Christs sake... if you want to make them better than megabeams balance megabeams... I mean rly
Apoc tanks better than Mega and Tempest and has allready marginally better DPS now you give it a bit more?
Please explain why this makes 0 (zero) sense...
Megabeams are already balanced, so how would balancing them fix the problem? Tachyons are very hard as well to fit.
The Apoc has marginally better DPS than the Mega and Tempest? I doubt that very much.
What you have said makes zero sense because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about .
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Wulfgard
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:51:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: sidthesexist
Funny how i realise people supporting this issue are apoc users :D
I'd guess most people that have specialized in a covetor can't offer an informed opinion.
LOL, good one Deja 
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.03.17 13:59:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Rodj Blake
As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater.
As opposed to autocannons, where their top guns do exactly the same dps for less tracking and harder fitting.
tbh sometimes I don't know why I bother - after hearing that CCP likes to keep minmatar as the "underdogs" at the las vagas fanfest it seems there is no point arguing for needed boosts in certain areas as they want to keep them crap.
or oveur just telling "yeah, nerfing matari is the point here"
heh I had forgotten about that one
wonder when its worth to fit tachs on the scorp again
soon(tm)
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 14:22:00 -
[56]
"wonder when its worth to fit tachs on the scorp again "
Weren't you saying in the other thread just couple days ago Scorpion sucks firepower wise because she doesn't have the grid to mount even 425's... yet now you turn around and apparently find her fine grid-wise to mount turrets that take 60% more grid each? :/
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.17 14:25:00 -
[57]
Originally by: j0sephine
"wonder when its worth to fit tachs on the scorp again "
Weren't you saying in the other thread just couple days ago Scorpion sucks firepower wise because she doesn't have the grid to mount even 425's... yet now you turn around and apparently find her fine grid-wise to mount turrets that take 60% more grid each? :/
You never flown scorps 2003? Back when you could abuse them in the SPVD style?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 14:32:00 -
[58]
That was 3 years ago, eh. You could have shield tanked Scorps with 95% or so efficiency back then, too ;s
(and i recall ironically enough plenty people fit projectiles back then rather than tachyons... because they'd do more damage per shot. Still do, for that matter -.o
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.03.17 14:34:00 -
[59]
Originally by: dazedandconfused
Originally by: Crellion
They allready outdamage 425 rails and 1400 aries in all situations and you want to further increase their DPS... with a free extra dmg mod????
For Christs sake... if you want to make them better than megabeams balance megabeams... I mean rly
Apoc tanks better than Mega and Tempest and has allready marginally better DPS now you give it a bit more?
Please explain why this makes 0 (zero) sense...
Megabeams are already balanced, so how would balancing them fix the problem? Tachyons are very hard as well to fit.
The Apoc has marginally better DPS than the Mega and Tempest? I doubt that very much.
What you have said makes zero sense because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about .
You can go on dounbting it and thinking I have no clue... or you can have a look at Naughty boys charts... or you can test yourselves if you have the appropriate skills and you corpmates also ... we have and I have...
What I posted (both the OP and the latter large reply) are based on facts. Your answer is based on the "fact" that you sincerely doubt what I say and on the "fact" that I have no idea what I am talking about... Well done you win eve.
In fact the only error in my statements is in the second post where I said that I assumed that 1200 do much less dmg than 1400s but I said I assume because I hant looked into it and it appears that I might have been wrong about this. In any event this changes not 1 iota the veractiy of my crtitique on the error of uberising tachyons. If you post to post... its fine I guess. If you want people to pay attention to what you say make sure you "know" and dont "believe".
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ChalSto
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Posted - 2006.03.17 14:38:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Wolverine PL
Originally by: Darpz
yeah I agree I didn't see the point tbh, hopefully blasters will get some love though
You can be sure they will nerf them.
I feel it in my bones...
omg they will nerf them, i know it.......i surely know it........
I can see the arguement of TomB/Oveur before my eyes: "Hey......we gave you a tracking boost () so you can hit better and do more dmg.......thats why weŠll cut the dmg-mod in half ( )."
Solution -> Plz make the Blasterthron finaly the most feared extreme-close-range ship in the game.........not the Torp-Raven.
We need -> Tracking Boost (that "boost" from you is laughable), CPU/PG reduction AND dmg-incrase!
We got one of the WORST tracking gunŠs (very logical for "close"-range)
We got the WORST range AND still do crap dmg even if we survive the approach
AND
We canŠt win a fight even if David Copperfield magicaly beams our Blasterthron in optimal range at the start of the fight.......
Current Location: Relax and drinking a beer with Dreez and waiting for TomBŠs Blaster changes |
Neon Genesis
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 14:44:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Anjerrai Meloanis
Originally by: Darpz
yeah I agree I didn't see the point tbh, hopefully blasters will get some love though
i dont get this blaster moan, ever blasterthron pilot ive gone up against webbed me to hell and had no trouble hitting me whatsoever.
and the point was that tachyons only did 1% more dps than a mega beam, hence the boost.
Sacrifices you make compared to megapulses with no extra rewards? Given the lack of versatility of Blasters, they really should have a very worthwhile damage output, atm they don't compared to other turrets.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 14:57:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 17/03/2006 15:00:15
Tbh, I don't get the tach changes either.
Sure, hard to fit, sure, too little difference with megabeams.
But, in any setup that is NOT a compromise between doing damage and tanking tachs > * and megabeams > 350mm and 1200mm already.
I don't see where it makes sense to fly anything else then an apoc or geddon into fleet combat now tbh. The one has superb suvivability and good dps and the other does short range-style dps at 80km. Apoc have some slots for EW, while geddon is just THE damagedealer ingame.
Tell me where the sense in that is ?
tbh, I always assumed the dps ranking for medium-long range was like:
mega > geddon > apoc > temp
But it seems that even withuot extra lubbing for the tach its already like this:
geddon > apoc > mega > temp
Where's the logic in that ?
And where's the logic in boosting that ?
I know, resistances, EM and termal damage. Tell me, what's the difference against an average 1x adaptive nano BS + 1x explosive BS tank ?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:07:00 -
[63]
"I don't see where it makes sense to fly anything else then an apoc or geddon into fleet combat now tbh."
I can only hope this sort of thinking will spread. Nothing better than enemy fleet that you are guaranteed to resist in 50-75% ;s
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:19:00 -
[64]
Originally by: j0sephine
"I don't see where it makes sense to fly anything else then an apoc or geddon into fleet combat now tbh."
I can only hope this sort of thinking will spread. Nothing better than enemy fleet that you are guaranteed to resist in 50-75% ;s
nowadays you will probably just face the tech2 long range ammo anyway
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:28:00 -
[65]
"nowadays you will probably just face the tech2 long range ammo anyway"
Aye but as long as it's all laser boats and until explosive crystals are in game, bring it in xD
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:32:00 -
[66]
Tech 2 ammo should have done neat stuff like have webifier and scrambler properties, you know... to similate actually hitting someone's engines etc. As it is... its a range game with penalty to another system. We see how missiles worked out... I can't say I don't see apocs being king whizbang for another year for all around ships.
While I wouldn't say its going to be the end all PvP king... it will continue being one of the most owned / piloted ships in tha game. Hell I have 4 characters that can fly them if that is saying anything. And while I have Matari BS 5 and the others at 4... I still fly amarr tech most of the time now unless doing missions which my phoon is king atm.
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:36:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 17/03/2006 11:14:02
As things stand the fitting requirements of tachyons are far in excess of megabeams, and yet their damage output is not that much greater.
It makes sense to give them a slight boost.
So, where's the option for the other races to have a very high fitting weapon with a mad DPS and better stats?
Although even if they did release them, other races wouldn't be able to fit them since Amarr and Caldari also get the best fitting stats for their respective fittings :S
There used to be a sig here, but I got bored of it.
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dazedandconfused
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:43:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: dazedandconfused
Originally by: Crellion
They allready outdamage 425 rails and 1400 aries in all situations and you want to further increase their DPS... with a free extra dmg mod????
For Christs sake... if you want to make them better than megabeams balance megabeams... I mean rly
Apoc tanks better than Mega and Tempest and has allready marginally better DPS now you give it a bit more?
Please explain why this makes 0 (zero) sense...
Megabeams are already balanced, so how would balancing them fix the problem? Tachyons are very hard as well to fit.
The Apoc has marginally better DPS than the Mega and Tempest? I doubt that very much.
What you have said makes zero sense because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about .
You can go on dounbting it and thinking I have no clue... or you can have a look at Naughty boys charts... or you can test yourselves if you have the appropriate skills and you corpmates also ... we have and I have...
What I posted (both the OP and the latter large reply) are based on facts. Your answer is based on the "fact" that you sincerely doubt what I say and on the "fact" that I have no idea what I am talking about... Well done you win eve.
In fact the only error in my statements is in the second post where I said that I assumed that 1200 do much less dmg than 1400s but I said I assume because I hant looked into it and it appears that I might have been wrong about this. In any event this changes not 1 iota the veractiy of my crtitique on the error of uberising tachyons. If you post to post... its fine I guess. If you want people to pay attention to what you say make sure you "know" and dont "believe".
I win eve? wonderful :p
To be honest I don't fly an Apoc. My brother flys amarr battleships, though, yet he prefers a geddon. Anyways, seeing him in action, damage wise mega beams still are a much better choice, and while doing less damage per gun, one can fit more of them to counter that issue. The only real advantage I see to tachyons is their range, though my brother can get over 175km range with mega IIs and aurora crystals.
The fitting and energy cost on tachyons vs 425 or 1400 is rediculously different too. How is an apoc going to tank better than the temp or mega with tachyons fitted? It's a solid tank or tachyons, bottom line, and while I may be guessing, I believe the mega a temp gain the lead in terms of damage if tachyons are taken out of the picture.
The apoc might be able to fit more guns, but no rof bites heh. The apoc gets no damage bonuses of any type. In terms of uberdmg, the geddon holds the lead, and changing tachyons from 4.25 to 4.5 is not going to affect the true damage dealing side of amarr, for I don't know of anyone who fits tachyons on a geddon and if I did I would slap them silly :P. The tachyon apoc user might be getting a boost, but who cares? The geddon is still king.
Ultimately I don't see the point of writing a thread titled Tachyons: Tuxford you _)(*&*&. Based on fact or not, it seems to me you're clearly overreacting. Even if you were given the correct reason to react, that's the wrong way to do it. You must be professional, right?
This big smile is just for you, buddy :P
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Forsch
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:44:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Tuxford
The damage output has been increased slightly, the tech 1 from 4.25 to 4.5.
So suddenly Tachyons are mad DPS?
You guys argue about something pretty insignificant. Keep your energy for the stuff that is really broke.
The devs probably checked the numbers and realized not many people were using tachyons, with good reason. A small boost really is in order. They still are hard as hell to fit and still eat tons of cap. Yes, amarr ships are using one (out of two) bonus to work against that.
________________________________________________________________
- Forsch
Defender of the empire
|
dazedandconfused
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 15:51:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Tuxford
The damage output has been increased slightly, the tech 1 from 4.25 to 4.5.
So suddenly Tachyons are mad DPS?
Yes, the end is near, nerf tachyons!!! wahahaa 
Just kidding by the way, bored atm .
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Kaylana Syi
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 16:04:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Tuxford
The damage output has been increased slightly, the tech 1 from 4.25 to 4.5.
So suddenly Tachyons are mad DPS?
You guys argue about something pretty insignificant. Keep your energy for the stuff that is really broke.
The devs probably checked the numbers and realized not many people were using tachyons, with good reason. A small boost really is in order. They still are hard as hell to fit and still eat tons of cap. Yes, amarr ships are using one (out of two) bonus to work against that.
I think they should be boosted higher tbh. But at the same time the 1200/1400 should recieve the same looking at. There is a clear difference between the 1200 and 1400 guns... unlike the Mega/Tach ( and hell the geddon vs apoc while you are at it ) but when you loot at the 1400 vs Tach or the 1400 vs 425mm the 1400 looses its role.... especially against 425mm.
Any changes to the 1400 should be accompanied with 1200 changes to not broaden the gap of performance even higher than it is already. There is room for improvement on the Tach's damage profile as well.
1200 II == 1400 I.
350 II == 425 I
Mega II >>> Tach I
I also think Laser owners benefit more from Cap Injectors because they don't use much cargo for ammo. So infact they in many ways great fleet ships that can last over 2 minutes.
A ?, which might be stupid, is the tach change going to cascade up through the meta and tech 2s?
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Zarks
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Posted - 2006.03.17 16:36:00 -
[72]
1. Both geddon and apoc got one of their ship bonuses used for decreased cap usage.
2. Apoc gets no dmg bonus at all.
3. Both tempest and mega gets dual dmg bonus (yes I count tracking as dmg bonus).
4. Tachyons should do more damage per base then both 1400mm and 425mm because why would amarr users ever fit beam otherwise??? (they both got better total range and lesser fitting reqs)
5. If you donŠt get all the above donŠt post in this thread anymore.
___________________________________________________
Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available. |
Zarks
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 16:42:00 -
[73]
Also there is combat beside fleet battles everyone in this thread seems to be obcessed about.
If you fit 8 tachyon II on apoc in different situations you cant fit **** on your ship to go along with it. On a tempest or mega with maxed guns on slots you can still actually have some useful items on the rest of the slots.
Also 1/2 high slots remaining arent useless as alot seem to think.
Get over it.
___________________________________________________
Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available. |
Robotek Hybrid
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 16:48:00 -
[74]
ravens/missiles pwn you all
anyway... usefull info in this thread cuz im training an alt for amarr stuff I think but now... I dunno I think ill stay with amarr cuz they gots other cool stuff besides tachs and apocs
BM-C is recruiting! |
Wulfgard
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:06:00 -
[75]
So the marginal increase DPS for Tachyons is to make up for removing T2 explosive crystals? Hey, laserophobic mob, what are you moaning about?
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dalman
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 17:22:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: j0sephine
"wonder when its worth to fit tachs on the scorp again "
Weren't you saying in the other thread just couple days ago Scorpion sucks firepower wise because she doesn't have the grid to mount even 425's... yet now you turn around and apparently find her fine grid-wise to mount turrets that take 60% more grid each? :/
You never flown scorps 2003? Back when you could abuse them in the SPVD style?
Yaarrr! Bring back teh laser-ravens 
^^ that's 2 tachyons + 2 meta heavy beams + 4 launchers with cruise.
(and it's from october 2003 I think)
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 17:23:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Zarks
1. Both geddon and apoc got one of their ship bonuses used for decreased cap usage.
2. Apoc gets no dmg bonus at all.
3. Both tempest and mega gets dual dmg bonus (yes I count tracking as dmg bonus).
4. Tachyons should do more damage per base then both 1400mm and 425mm because why would amarr users ever fit beam otherwise??? (they both got better total range and lesser fitting reqs)
5. If you donŠt get all the above donŠt post in this thread anymore.
lasers have built in damage bonus. Geddon had double damage bonus, apoc a single damage bonus. Projectiles are made for ships with a single ROF bonus, the Damage bonus is the second bonus, which just a few matari ships have.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:32:00 -
[78]
"^^ that's 2 tachyons + 2 meta heavy beams + 4 launchers with cruise.
(and it's from october 2003 I think)"
Yeah, Raven actually had something you could call a grid, back then ^^
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:44:00 -
[79]
i used to fly a t1 gedden into "very risky" combat over a t2 megathron since i got more tracking out of the gedden and about the same damage which ment it was very cheap.
for anti crusier/frig i would go with the gedden with 7 t2 tachs in high, for anti BS i would go with the megathron. the extra range on the megathron for me made it worth useing over the gedden, when we did sniping i would sit 180km away knowing that most laser users wount be able to hit me back, that was my justification for the 30%? less damage. but with the t2 range ammo it removes that totally and there is no point useing the mega/tempepest over a gedden with its higher tracking and DPS.
tbh it was overpowered to start with and now is just that little bit more uber. and WTF are people talking about a sniper apoc????? dont you people know you get a lot more damage out of a gedden, more drones to kill stuff that gets close to you. tier 1 so is cheaper and u need to fit 7 guns over 8 which again is cost saving.
the apoc shouldnt even be in this convo
oh and most importantly, the reason i fit t2 tachs onto a gedden over megabeams was well
1: i could fit it
2: the range on tach t2 is longer than megabeams, thus you can hit further out or use more damaging crystals.
3: NERFFFFFFFFFFF
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Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:49:00 -
[80]
Originally by: j0sephine
"^^ that's 2 tachyons + 2 meta heavy beams + 4 launchers with cruise.
(and it's from october 2003 I think)"
Yeah, Raven actually had something you could call a grid, back then ^^
Back when I used to fit 1400 Is on an apoc with a lot of damage mods and sensor boosters and go to sydicate to camp stations D.N.A. were docked in... on this toon.
If I was you... I'd run. |
DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:50:00 -
[81]
I would just like to remind everyone who brings projectiles into this comparison that Matari is not a real word, even by fictional standards Œ_Œ
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
Ysolde Xen
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 17:52:00 -
[82]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I would just like to remind everyone who brings projectiles into this comparison that Matari is not a real word, even by fictional standards Œ_Œ
I'm pretty sure I've seen the word used in PF, not just here.
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Zarks
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:53:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Zarks
1. Both geddon and apoc got one of their ship bonuses used for decreased cap usage.
2. Apoc gets no dmg bonus at all.
3. Both tempest and mega gets dual dmg bonus (yes I count tracking as dmg bonus).
4. Tachyons should do more damage per base then both 1400mm and 425mm because why would amarr users ever fit beam otherwise??? (they both got better total range and lesser fitting reqs)
5. If you donŠt get all the above donŠt post in this thread anymore.
lasers have built in damage bonus. Geddon had double damage bonus, apoc a single damage bonus. Projectiles are made for ships with a single ROF bonus, the Damage bonus is the second bonus, which just a few matari ships have.
What you yapping about? Please make some sense next time.
___________________________________________________
Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 18:09:00 -
[84]
Zarks, the argument that amarr bs have one bonus offset in whole by the high cap use of their weapons is a non-argument when comapred with ship/weapon combinations of other races.
The megathron's tracking bonus offsets the lower standard tracking on 425's. It's damage bonus offsets the lower standard damage on 425's.
The tempest's damage bonus' offset the lower standard damage on 1400's.
Tach have one 'missing' damage bonus calculated in their base stats, as can been seen when comparing a no-damage bonus ship like the apoc with one with a damage bonus like the mega. They also have one tracking bonus built in, again as seen when comapring those two ships.
The exceptions to this "overall when fitted it all comes down to roughly equal capabiltiies in range, dps and tracking" - rule are the tempest and the geddon.
The tempest lacks the tracking bonus, which is also not built into 1400's. The compensation is teh dmage type variability and the high alpha strike.
The geddon gets a damage bonus on top of the built in damage bonus, supposedly offset by the fact is doesn't have the total cap bonus (meaning it can't use tachs in long drawn out shooting matches much, which are pretty damn rare anyway), and by it's limited versatility (3 meds, low hp's).
The problem I see with tachs isn't so much caused with this increase in damage bonus as well as the figures posted in this thread about the current situation. That increase isn't that high, I agree with that. And the tracking increase on the mega might make up for it anyway as far as comparing the mega with the apoc goes.
But, I always thought the 425mm rails fitted on the mega was roughly equal to the tachs fitted on the geddon, and superior with a fair margin to the tachs fitted on the apoc.
I'm surprised they are not, because the logic of them not being superior dps wise escapes me seeing the apoc and geddon have most if not all the other strengths relevant going for them as well. Exceptions are the damage types (I'd prefer thermal and kinetic just ever so slightly above EM and thermal atm), and the versatiliy of leftover lowslots in comparison with an apoc long range fleet fit.
But, do those two pro's the mega gets offset the pro's the other two get. Notably the enormous damage potential of the geddon and the powerfull combination of survivability and dps-advantage the apoc gets in this settting ?
It's indeed not a huge issue, but it does make me wonder why tuxford chooses to up the damage on tachs at all, when both tachs and megabeams are already superior in nearly every way to their counterparts.
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.03.17 18:11:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Zarks
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Zarks
1. Both geddon and apoc got one of their ship bonuses used for decreased cap usage.
2. Apoc gets no dmg bonus at all.
3. Both tempest and mega gets dual dmg bonus (yes I count tracking as dmg bonus).
4. Tachyons should do more damage per base then both 1400mm and 425mm because why would amarr users ever fit beam otherwise??? (they both got better total range and lesser fitting reqs)
5. If you donŠt get all the above donŠt post in this thread anymore.
lasers have built in damage bonus. Geddon had double damage bonus, apoc a single damage bonus. Projectiles are made for ships with a single ROF bonus, the Damage bonus is the second bonus, which just a few matari ships have.
What you yapping about? Please make some sense next time.
What he's saying is that the cap use bonus is equal to the damagebonus.
If you prefer it one could lower the base damage on lasers by 20%, reduce capuse by 50% and then change the cap-use bonus to the usual damage bonus.
But instead lasers have 25ish % higher base damage and the ships gets a cap use bonus; the high cap use is intended to make other races refrain from using lasers, not the damage bonuses on their own ships.
So, your first points are incorrect.
The cap-use bonus let's you use a turret with higher damage, and with the rof bonus the geddon 'have' 2 damagebonuses.
And with the new base damage mod on the tachyon, a tach fitted on an apoc will have almost exactly the same DPS as a 425mm rail on a mega. (but with 8 slots that means apoc can deal more damage).
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 18:15:00 -
[86]
Its not the fact that ammars wanna have their "I win button" that ****es me off... everybody wants that. Its the fact that the Devs are giving it to them that I really dont get.
As for those that tryto compete the DPS and fitting reqs of the guns without looking at the DPS of a fitted ship or the base cap/bonuses/grid of the races BSs... just dont post rly...
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Zarks
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Posted - 2006.03.17 18:54:00 -
[87]
Dalman - yeah and as I said I want to see you use 8 tachyon II on apoc in any different situation than long range fleet battle and be useful.
7 425 II fits like a glove and you need 3!!! yes three rcu II on the apoc to fit 8 tach II.
stop talking idiot speak and think instead
___________________________________________________
Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available. |
Zarks
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Posted - 2006.03.17 18:59:00 -
[88]
actually you can get away with 2 rcu now with that new skill, but you still donŠt need any to fit the mega.
___________________________________________________
Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available. |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.17 19:05:00 -
[89]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I would just like to remind everyone who brings projectiles into this comparison that Matari is not a real word, even by fictional standards Œ_Œ
in the time it took you to type that you could've google searched it and not made yourself look like an idiot
linkage
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sidthesexist
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Posted - 2006.03.17 19:33:00 -
[90]
I do not support this idea one bit.
I have an alt which flies apocs and with Gleams gets 700-800 damage per gun to an untanked target with tachyons.
This is the most rediculous idea CCP has put forward this far. Tux you really need to change this one, and fast.
________
Shinra
According to Freud, thinking the world revolves around you is a regression
to childhood, when your world actually did revolve around you. - Wrangler
Hijacked as requested, wubwoo - Billy the Fish |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 20:45:00 -
[91]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Zarks
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Zarks
1. Both geddon and apoc got one of their ship bonuses used for decreased cap usage.
2. Apoc gets no dmg bonus at all.
3. Both tempest and mega gets dual dmg bonus (yes I count tracking as dmg bonus).
4. Tachyons should do more damage per base then both 1400mm and 425mm because why would amarr users ever fit beam otherwise??? (they both got better total range and lesser fitting reqs)
5. If you donŠt get all the above donŠt post in this thread anymore.
lasers have built in damage bonus. Geddon had double damage bonus, apoc a single damage bonus. Projectiles are made for ships with a single ROF bonus, the Damage bonus is the second bonus, which just a few matari ships have.
What you yapping about? Please make some sense next time.
What he's saying is that the cap use bonus is equal to the damagebonus.
If you prefer it one could lower the base damage on lasers by 20%, reduce capuse by 50% and then change the cap-use bonus to the usual damage bonus.
But instead lasers have 25ish % higher base damage and the ships gets a cap use bonus; the high cap use is intended to make other races refrain from using lasers, not the damage bonuses on their own ships.
So, your first points are incorrect.
The cap-use bonus let's you use a turret with higher damage, and with the rof bonus the geddon 'have' 2 damagebonuses.
And with the new base damage mod on the tachyon, a tach fitted on an apoc will have almost exactly the same DPS as a 425mm rail on a mega. (but with 8 slots that means apoc can deal more damage).
thx, Im just tired to explain basic stuff to all kind of people. I should safe my links to "Nafri explains Eve" posts
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2006.03.17 21:10:00 -
[92]
I wont wade into the specifics of the debate...but I will tell you what I do love
...that is people coming here and just comparing DPS or just comparing cap use. You guys need to look at the big picture when it comes to weapon comparisons. For example, the ability to load any damage type for projectile weapons is extremely powerful. You guys need to think about not just weapon statistics but also defensive characteristics seen in PVP combat (Range, Resistance, Speed...etc)
================================
OEC Now Recruiting
Come live the life of a 'Merc' today! |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 21:32:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Karash Amerius
I wont wade into the specifics of the debate...but I will tell you what I do love
...that is people coming here and just comparing DPS or just comparing cap use. You guys need to look at the big picture when it comes to weapon comparisons. For example, the ability to load any damage type for projectile weapons is extremely powerful. You guys need to think about not just weapon statistics but also defensive characteristics seen in PVP combat (Range, Resistance, Speed...etc)
hhmm yep, but over the years, we talked about everything here already.
If we want to talk about the reall issues with howitzers, we would have to talk about tracking and the need to fight in falloff, which is something you really dont want.
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.03.17 22:14:00 -
[94]
Edited by: dalman on 17/03/2006 22:15:33
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 22:43:00 -
[95]
Originally by: dalman
Edited by: dalman on 17/03/2006 22:29:22
Originally by: Nafri
hhmm yep, but over the years, we talked about everything here already.
If we want to talk about the reall issues with howitzers, we would have to talk about tracking and the need to fight in falloff, which is something you really dont want.
I don't agree, at all.
0.009*1.25*0.75*1.3 = 0.01097 = 1400T2 tracking with Quake ammo and one tracking computer.
160/0.01097 = 14585. Your 1400 tracks 'normal' at 14.6km range vs a battleship with 160 m/s transversal velocity! Even without the tracking computer it's 18960m, while optimal range of a 1400 without tracking computer is 30000m. (=63.2% of optimal)
Compare this to an Electron blaster with the high damage ammo on a megathron, even with the new boost to mega tracking bonus:
0,05*1.25*1.375*0.5=0.0430 160/0.0430=3720, while it's optimal range is 2100. (=21.6% into falloff)
Even with the significant boost to megathron tracking, it reach 'normal' tracking far outside optimal range.
Now, let's take a look at a dominix trying to use electron blasters: It reach 'normal' tracking at 4650m, while it's optimal range is 2100m! (=34% into falloff!!)
For a dual650 with hail ammo, you reach 'normal' tracking at 5120m while optimal is 2700! (=12% into falloff)
Now, yea, the shortrange 'damage ammo' comes with higher penalties to tracking. Feel free to do the math with other ammo types.
But the only conclusion is:
Artillerys do not have any tracking issues. On the contrary, they rather need to be nerfed a bit.
That also means that the tracking on Tachyons (and 425mm rails with the new mega tracking bonus) are hugely overpowered and should be hit with the nerf sledgehammer to be 'in line' with other weapons.
Or at least maybe someone can understand why we blaster pilots has been complaining about tracking of our guns.
blasters track better than autocannons , at least on a blasterthron
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.03.17 22:54:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Nafri
blasters track better than autocannons , at least on a blasterthron
Haha, no they don't.
Because both end up outside optimal range; but due to the much greater falloff on autocannons blasters end up further out (in %) in their falloff range, and hence track worse than autocannons.
Though, note that I used electrons! With the greater range on neutrons, these are not hit as badly as electrons. Hence why I in several posts has called for large boost to electrons, medium boost to Ions and small/no boost to neutron tracking speed.
Of course, in a 1vs1 transversal speed will never get close to such values; but in a 1vs2, 2vs2 etc you'll want to use transversal speed as a defence vs multiple targets shooting you.
In long range fleet battles ppl typicly align to warpout point; and transversal can end up anywhere between 0 and 320. Of course it's very easy to manuever to get very low transversal - but that may make it almost impossible to warp out in time when you're called target.
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
ZzZ Calm
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 23:03:00 -
[97]
Edited by: ZzZ Calm on 17/03/2006 23:03:51
Please someone give me a setup so i can fit 8 tachyon 2s, maybe with like 5+ rcus or something...
i fit 6 tachyon 2s and 2 mega beams 2s with 2 pds 2s and 5 dmg mods.. my grid is maxed out
this sniper..... no ones suggested it yet
i havnt tried it out personnally but it does sound good setup,
apoc with 8 1400mms t2s! with 2 pds i think , u can run a decent tank too with over 7000cap and good cap skills, this setup would be nasty vs other snipers
oh yeah, they also need to change the tachyon firing sounds, its so dam loud and annoying 
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Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2006.03.17 23:06:00 -
[98]
""Because both end up outside optimal range; but due to the much greater falloff on autocannons blasters end up further out (in %) in their falloff range, and hence track worse than autocannons.""
Unless im completely mistaken Dalman's referring to a range issue to argue about tracking... No matter how you cut it, tracking is easier for all turrets the further the target is (there's an illustrated tracking guide that explains this quite well), all other variables kepts at constant. I'm not sure what Dalman is trying to say here, but it makes no sense.
Ison's notches |
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 23:17:00 -
[99]
Originally by: ZzZ Calm
Edited by: ZzZ Calm on 17/03/2006 23:03:51
Please someone give me a setup so i can fit 8 tachyon 2s, maybe with like 5+ rcus or something...
i fit 6 tachyon 2s and 2 mega beams 2s with 2 pds 2s and 5 dmg mods.. my grid is maxed out
this sniper..... no ones suggested it yet
i havnt tried it out personnally but it does sound good setup,
apoc with 8 1400mms t2s! with 2 pds i think , u can run a decent tank too with over 7000cap and good cap skills, this setup would be nasty vs other snipers
oh yeah, they also need to change the tachyon firing sounds, its so dam loud and annoying
stop fitting 5 damage mods
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.17 23:19:00 -
[100]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Nafri
blasters track better than autocannons , at least on a blasterthron
Haha, no they don't.
Because both end up outside optimal range; but due to the much greater falloff on autocannons blasters end up further out (in %) in their falloff range, and hence track worse than autocannons.
Though, note that I used electrons! With the greater range on neutrons, these are not hit as badly as electrons. Hence why I in several posts has called for large boost to electrons, medium boost to Ions and small/no boost to neutron tracking speed.
Of course, in a 1vs1 transversal speed will never get close to such values; but in a 1vs2, 2vs2 etc you'll want to use transversal speed as a defence vs multiple targets shooting you.
In long range fleet battles ppl typicly align to warpout point; and transversal can end up anywhere between 0 and 320. Of course it's very easy to manuever to get very low transversal - but that may make it almost impossible to warp out in time when you're called target.
but you will also never use blasters in a fleet, maybe if your in CFS, but thy died for a special reason. And believe me or not, Howitzers have issues to track anything. When I go for max transversal with 1200mm howitzers and use a tracking disruptors against a geddon, it ended bad for me. I couldnt hit hit him at all
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dalman
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Posted - 2006.03.17 23:25:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Isonkon Serikain
""Because both end up outside optimal range; but due to the much greater falloff on autocannons blasters end up further out (in %) in their falloff range, and hence track worse than autocannons.""
Unless im completely mistaken Dalman's referring to a range issue to argue about tracking... No matter how you cut it, tracking is easier for all turrets the further the target is (there's an illustrated tracking guide that explains this quite well), all other variables kepts at constant. I'm not sure what Dalman is trying to say here, but it makes no sense.
the 'hit chance equation':
Quote:
Hit chance = ((1/2)^(((((Transv/(Range*Tracking))*(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad))^2) +((max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff)^2))
As the tracking on both blasters and ACs suck, they end up with a 'maximum hit chance' outside their optimal.
As falloff is much shorter on blasters, the 'negative impact' of ending up outside optimal hits them much harder than how it hit's ACs.
I just ran the values in the tool on this website...
The hit chance 'at best range' for dual650 vs electron blaster is better for the dual650, no matter the speed of the target when using the T2 damage ammo (the peak is of course at further range for the AC).
Already at 50 m/s transversal the dual650 peak at ~3% higher hit chance. At 100 m/s transversal the dual650 has ~7% higher maximum hit chance than an electron blaster.
At 160 m/s transversal the dual650 will hit ~21% more often than the electron at respecive peak!
Am I forced to have any regret?
I've become the lie, beautiful and free
In my righteous own mind
I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Isonkon Serikain
|
Posted - 2006.03.17 23:43:00 -
[102]
thanks for clarifying.
Ison's notches |
sidthesexist
|
Posted - 2006.03.18 01:21:00 -
[103]
Originally by: dalman
Edited by: dalman on 17/03/2006 23:28:38
Originally by: Isonkon Serikain
""Because both end up outside optimal range; but due to the much greater falloff on autocannons blasters end up further out (in %) in their falloff range, and hence track worse than autocannons.""
Unless im completely mistaken Dalman's referring to a range issue to argue about tracking... No matter how you cut it, tracking is easier for all turrets the further the target is (there's an illustrated tracking guide that explains this quite well), all other variables kepts at constant. I'm not sure what Dalman is trying to say here, but it makes no sense.
the 'hit chance equation':
Quote:
Hit chance = ((1/2)^(((((Transv/(Range*Tracking))*(Sig_Res/Sig_Rad))^2) +((max(0,Range-Optimal))/Falloff)^2))
As the tracking on both blasters and ACs suck, they end up with a 'maximum hit chance' outside their optimal.
As falloff is much shorter on blasters, the 'negative impact' of ending up outside optimal hits them much harder than how it hit's ACs.
I just ran the values in the tool on this website...
The hit chance 'at best range' for dual650 vs electron blaster is better for the dual650, no matter the speed of the target when using the T2 damage ammo (the peak is of course at further range for the AC).
Already at 50 m/s transversal the dual650 peak at ~3% higher hit chance. At 100 m/s transversal the dual650 has ~7% higher maximum hit chance than an electron blaster.
At 160 m/s transversal the dual650 will hit ~21% more often than the electron at respecive peak!
*edit* ^^ these numbers are on a megathron with the new 7.5% per level tracking bonus!
This is not a Projectile vs Blaster thread, this is a stop tachyons getting totaly overpowered thread.
Tachyons are fine as they are.
IF they are given more damage then increase their cap usage or increase their fitting reqs so its impossible to fit more than 6
________
Shinra
According to Freud, thinking the world revolves around you is a regression
to childhood, when your world actually did revolve around you. - Wrangler
Hijacked as requested, wubwoo - Billy the Fish |
ThunderGodThor
|
Posted - 2006.03.18 04:12:00 -
[104]
May i Ask a Very stupid Question? Are the Tech 2's gonna be boosted too by the proper persentage they are now or will the tech 1's become more powerful/usefull then tech 2's?
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Nebuli
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Posted - 2006.03.18 04:53:00 -
[105]
Have no IDEA why a boost to Tachyons is needed, know a pilot with max gunnery in lazers who is awesome with tachs on poc or geddon, he shreds everything, the things rock as they are why on earth do they need a boost??
Someone mentioned range as a limiting factor or something, but wtf, with tech II ammo this becomes a complete non arguement.
Lazers have an awesome long range weapon, tachs, and probably the best short range BS the geddon, that thing is amazing, at 30k its doing the same damage as my BT is at 5k, so lazers have great short and long range as it is, why does the long range need a boost?
Cant say I have crunched any numbers or anything similar, but I'm going by alot of in-game testing in one on ones with lazer users with my rails and blasters and their is absolutely bugger all wrong with lazers as they are at all.
CEO - Art of War |
Lunarfury
|
Posted - 2006.03.18 06:21:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Lunarfury on 18/03/2006 06:23:30
The difference between Megabeam and Tachyon is currently too small to justify the fitting requirments of Tachyon. Also, all ship comes in with no less than 50% of resistance to laser weapon even without any hardeners. This is a key factor in combat. Laser only do EM/Therm, those are easily tanked by all ships. All shield tanking pvp ships use em hardeners or have natural em resistance build in. All armor tanking ships come with no less than 60% EM resistance. So, that 0.25 dps increase do not and will not translate to that much difference. The ability to switch damage type based on target is much more meaningful than 0.25 dps increase. Take a look at the ship setup sticky. How many apoc/geddon setups are using tachyons? Very very few and that should tell you something is wrong with the weapon.
Some people saying that 1200mm artillery and 350mm rails sux, therefore megabeam should suck as well. Let me tell you, two wrong doesn't make one right. Fix the borked weapons instead of nerfing the weapon that is functional correctly. Grass is always greener you know. If tachyon beams are so good, how come I don't see all that many people use them? Fitting 8 t2 tachyons on apoc and 7 of them on geddon? That is nothing more than a suicide setup or snipping setup. Believe it or not, most who use apoc/geddon are not all for the purpose of pvp. Thus the extreme setup described by many wouldn't work.
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Slaveabuser
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Posted - 2006.03.18 12:46:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 18/03/2006 12:47:16
Do some research and see just how few people who actually use tachs.
Theres a reason why few use them.
Quote:
If tachyon beams are so good, how come I don't see all that many people use them? Fitting 8 t2 tachyons on apoc and 7 of them on geddon? That is nothing more than a suicide setup or snipping setup. Believe it or not, most who use apoc/geddon are not all for the purpose of pvp. Thus the extreme setup described by many wouldn't work.
0/\o
Killing the Minmatars since 22480 AD |
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2006.03.18 14:53:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Slaveabuser
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 18/03/2006 12:47:16
Do some research and see just how few people who actually use tachs.
Theres a reason why few use them.
Quote:
If tachyon beams are so good, how come I don't see all that many people use them? Fitting 8 t2 tachyons on apoc and 7 of them on geddon? That is nothing more than a suicide setup or snipping setup. Believe it or not, most who use apoc/geddon are not all for the purpose of pvp. Thus the extreme setup described by many wouldn't work.
0/\o
What does it matter when even megabeams are better then 425mm's and 1400's on both the apoc and the geddon at both short and long range ?
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Spokesperson
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:02:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
What does it matter when even megabeams are better then 425mm's and 1400's on both the apoc and the geddon at both short and long range ?
425's and 1400's are both better at long range.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:11:00 -
[110]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 19/03/2006 14:11:20
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: Rod Blaine
What does it matter when even megabeams are better then 425mm's and 1400's on both the apoc and the geddon at both short and long range ?
425's and 1400's are both better at long range.
Check your facts. Unless you mean ranges longer then say 130-150km of course, which are rather exceptional anyway.
Lasers have the best of everything atm, except fitting requirements and extreme range. Is that a good situation ?
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Spokesperson
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:17:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 14:18:07
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Check your facts. Unless you mean ranges longer then say 130-150km of course, which are rather exceptional anyway.
Lasers have the best of everything atm, except fitting requirements and extreme range. Is that a good situation ?
Yeah thats basically it
Combined with the damage bonuses 1400's or 425's are teh sniper weapons. 99.999999999999999999999999999% of all snipers either sit in a mega or a temp.
And thats not because they dont have proper laser skills.
Not to mention how crap radio crystals are, hitting for below 100 with large t2 turrets while their projectile or hybrid counterparts easily hits for 300+.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:19:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 14:18:07
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Check your facts. Unless you mean ranges longer then say 130-150km of course, which are rather exceptional anyway.
Lasers have the best of everything atm, except fitting requirements and extreme range. Is that a good situation ?
Yeah thats basically it
Combined with the damage bonuses 1400's or 425's are teh sniper weapons. 99.999999999999999999999999999% of all snipers either sit in a mega or a temp.
And thats not because they dont have proper laser skills.
Not to mention how crap radio crystals are, hitting for below 100 with large t2 turrets while their projectile or hybrid counterparts easily hits for 300+.
the reason all those snipers like tempests is 1) because they like minmatar ships or 2) because they know they'll only get one volley off, so you need to make it count
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Vasq
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:22:00 -
[113]
Lasers use cap but no ammo
Proj's use ammo but no cap
Rails use both cap and ammo
and u want the guns to have the same dot?
Smoke me a kipper, i'll be back for breakfast! |
Crellion
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:26:00 -
[114]
The thing is you wont find anybody with maxed amarr skills and BS 5 posting here against my OP because they allready know that the tachyon is allready the most powerfull weapon ingame and needs no boost... and of course cause they realise that megabeams are FAR better than 1200s and 350s (that nobody uses either).
The problem is people post here saying like "oh then its 1200s and 350s that are not working properly not megabeams so fix them 111111"
Right so we fix them to be like megabeams and then increase the power of 1400s and 425s and tachyons??? Is that what you are saying???
I repeat for the sake of clarity:
No boost of the Tachyon is needed.
Not because: (a) I have no clue (b) I hate ammar (though I do ) (c)whateva BUT
Because of detailed analysis of the comparative merits of all these weapons' systems mounted on the appropriate ships with close to maxed up pilots and that, as they say, is just about it. I would encourage all from posting further in this thread if:
(a) they havent read this or other similar discussions entirely
(b) they havent got a proper understanding of the ships the weapons and pvp.
Please note: I couldnt care less about pve. Make npc BSs faint and initiate self destruct when they see a tachyon ... I really dont mind. PvP has a very delicate balance in EVE. Tuxford has only brought positive changes so far and I am really disturbed that he proposes to do this now.
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:27:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 14:18:07
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Check your facts. Unless you mean ranges longer then say 130-150km of course, which are rather exceptional anyway.
Lasers have the best of everything atm, except fitting requirements and extreme range. Is that a good situation ?
Dont talk about "proper laser skills" and snipping with Radio crystals in the same post it shows extreme ignorance. Auroright?
Yeah thats basically it
Combined with the damage bonuses 1400's or 425's are teh sniper weapons. 99.999999999999999999999999999% of all snipers either sit in a mega or a temp.
And thats not because they dont have proper laser skills.
Not to mention how crap radio crystals are, hitting for below 100 with large t2 turrets while their projectile or hybrid counterparts easily hits for 300+.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:29:00 -
[116]
Most people fly tempest because it has 5 midslots, made it best sniper before stacking penalties came into play
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Slaveabuser
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:40:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 19/03/2006 14:43:10
Originally by: Crellion
The thing is you wont find anybody with maxed amarr skills and BS 5 posting here
Battleship lv5, all the basic gunnery skills lv5, large beam spc lv5. Engineering skills all maxed out too.
Tachyons still isnt worth fitting. They require too much cap.
Killing the Minmatars since 22480 AD |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:47:00 -
[118]
"Tachyons still isnt worth fitting. They require too much cap."
Cap injector..? Not like Amarr ships have much else to put in these large cargo bays... -.o
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:47:00 -
[119]
 Originally by: dalman
Of course, in a 1vs1 transversal speed will never get close to such values; but in a 1vs2, 2vs2 etc you'll want to use transversal speed as a defence vs multiple targets shooting you.
In long range fleet battles ppl typicly align to warpout point; and transversal can end up anywhere between 0 and 320. Of course it's very easy to manuever to get very low transversal - but that may make it almost impossible to warp out in time when you're called target.
very good. that alone tells meh you know your stuff
too many close range boats sit still or dont keep high trans thus getting hit a lot by snipers at even 5km.
specially raven pilots have no clue, orbit the dam person shooting you, he will miss more often and you will hit the same
often wondered what a group of highly skilled close range B-throns, AC-temps, pulse geds, ravens could do. i mean really skilled like knowing what to neut/nos, what to drone, when to have what trans ect. imo could dlaughter a 30 BS group easy with 10BS.
as for tac im both a t2 hybrid user and laser user on my main, gotta say that my gedden pawns in almost every situation over my megathron.
btw 7 t2 tacks, 2 sensor boosters, 1 tracking comp, 3 dmg mod, 2 rcu, 1 tracking enhancer, 1 small rep
vs 7 t2 425, 2 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps, 3dmg mods, 2 tracking enhancers, 1 small rep, 1 wcs[hey give me something usefull and ill put it there insted]
gedden > mega [and i guess tempest, apoc, lol raven] at sniping in every situation APART from one, that is volley damage [tempest wins, think ged is second and mega last on this] and safty [you pretty much got all your lows used for fitting/dmg while a tempest or mega these days come with 2 wcs standard]
also something to note: most people in the game. caldari>galante>amar>mini iirc
no of amar who can use t2 large lasers?
no of amar who will fit tac over megapulse after this?
this means that very few people in the game are amarr, less can use t2 large guns, even lesss will fit tacs, so its not effecting a lot of people
[this is quite funney, ALL the dam laser specilists[t2 large guns, bs5] complain about them not being able to snipe well which is ofcourse wrong and funney, guess its cos they are so used to megapulses
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:53:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Slaveabuser
Edited by: Slaveabuser on 19/03/2006 14:43:10
Originally by: Crellion
The thing is you wont find anybody with maxed amarr skills and BS 5 posting here
Battleship lv5, all the basic gunnery skills lv5, large beam spc lv5. Engineering skills all maxed out too.
Tachyons still isnt worth fitting. They require too much cap.
amarr bs 5
large laser specs 4
max cap, max drone [spec4]
i used tach for sniping in a gedden for a LONG time. this just adds another 2% [which ofcourse ****es ppl off, me too being a galante lubber but u can easily get 3%, 5% dmg and rof inplants]
also nafari cap injecters, well first gedden > apoc
then gedden got its 3 mids, you definitly need 2 sensor booster. and then i guess you could place a cap injecter in the last but a tracking comp adds range[which is practiclly dmg] and lots of tracking.
and tbh that is a semi valid point, in the larger battles you see geddens/apocs running out of cap to run their guns [same with megathrons], also take a look at vid of pos/station attacks, most the mega/apoc/ged pilots dont fit cap rechargers in mids and end up only firing half the time since they cant sustain cap [i have to use ALL my mids in my megathron for cap rechargers when i know ill be hitting a pos/station so do take that into account
but like everyone says, its not all fleet battles, infact more pvp in the game is solo/small gangs under 15 in which case cap lasts long enough to finish the battle
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:56:00 -
[121]
Tachyons are a ***** to fit, use extreme amounts of cap and dont do much more dps than mega beams atm.
They have many drawbacks, the only use for them is extreme sniping atm maybe the dmg increase makes them viable for more common uses.
Someone suggested fitting a cap injector, yeah I will surely use 1/3 of my midslots for a cap injector on my geddon
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:58:00 -
[122]
To add to this that you run out of cap in missions mainly cause you have to use your rep and at pos shooting cause you use multifrequency antimatter. In fleet battles you use aurora - infrared, spike iridium Lead etc ... much harder to run out of cap like this. My cap skills are all 4 not a single 5 one and I dont think I have EVER run out of cap firing Lead or even Spike... and I have been in some very lengthy ones (10-15 mins continuous)
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.03.19 14:59:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Tassi
Tachyons are a ***** to fit, use extreme amounts of cap and dont do much more dps than mega beams atm.
They have many drawbacks, the only use for them is extreme sniping atm maybe the dmg increase makes them viable for more common uses.
Someone suggested fitting a cap injector, yeah I will surely use 1/3 of my midslots for a cap injector on my geddon
Tassi dont you know its against the law for -v- pilots to post against what I say?
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:01:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Crellion
Not to mention that Nafri's post opened my eyes even more... now I see what you mean: tachs take too much cap for soloing level 4s is what you are saying I guess... well boo hoo pve is for 6 year olds and shouldnt even enter balancing talks
although i hate agent runners ive come to the conclusion that they suck because my ship of choice the megathron sucks at agent running. thus i have neevr got into the agent running at all
so although definitly on my lowest to do list, balanceing the ships for npcing should be something the devs do but only after EVERYTHING ELSE is done, did i mention i hate agent runners 
dif topic but imo
rats should warp away just like a player can if they look like they are going down,
rats should be a LOT tougher, what is up with 4 rat BS, 4 rat cruisers, and 4 rat cepters being ranked and killed by one man?
this should do hand in hand with MUCH better loot/isk but the rats should ofcourse be more rare, perhaps even have rats listed in local with the no of them so a npcer can move from system to system and find them easilly
BS/Crusier/BC rats should warp scramble [if it is viable say for example that serpentis blaster megathron it should definitly web/scram/mwd]
rats should multitank, WTF i dont ever tank EM and therm ONLY, i tank everything, rats should do the same, no weak points.
missile rats from time to time, specially the non kin bonous ones should use otehr dmg types. like the raven rats doing therm/kin/em and exp
lots of things
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Slaveabuser
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:19:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Tassi
Someone suggested fitting a cap injector, yeah I will surely use 1/3 of my midslots for a cap injector on my geddon
Thats simply unheard of!
The Amarr ships are all cap-me-do, and fitting cap injectors or pdu's for that matter = useless bonus to turret cap use.
Killing the Minmatars since 22480 AD |
Lunarfury
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:26:00 -
[126]
lol, so you sux at doing lvl 4 missions in megathron and that means everybody else also bad at it? I know a lot of people doing lvl 4 in megathron and doing faster than most who do it in raven and apoc. Until you can go into lvl 4 missions, face full spawn aggro due to buggs and still able to finish it, then you should just keep talk about what you know. Pvp ganking takes less skill than solo those hard lvl 4 missions. Until pvp, agent runners use balanced ship setup and push every single modules to their limite. For pvp, you got the turrets, scramblers/web, and dmg mods. It shows nothing about weapon balance since very few actually tank because one cannot tank a gank anyway. Pvp is just too extreme to be used for balance.
Most of the pvp fights last way too short to make cap/tanking matter. Also, what is wrong with pve? That is how a lot of people make money to fund their pvp stuff. Not everybody wants to mine you know.
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:42:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Lunarfury
lol, so you sux at doing lvl 4 missions in megathron and that means everybody else also bad at it? I know a lot of people doing lvl 4 in megathron and doing faster than most who do it in raven and apoc. Until you can go into lvl 4 missions, face full spawn aggro due to buggs and still able to finish it, then you should just keep talk about what you know. Pvp ganking takes less skill than solo those hard lvl 4 missions. Until pvp, agent runners use balanced ship setup and push every single modules to their limite. For pvp, you got the turrets, scramblers/web, and dmg mods. It shows nothing about weapon balance since very few actually tank because one cannot tank a gank anyway. Pvp is just too extreme to be used for balance.
Most of the pvp fights last way too short to make cap/tanking matter. Also, what is wrong with pve? That is how a lot of people make money to fund their pvp stuff. Not everybody wants to mine you know.
put it this way
A: FFS i already got a warning for being rude on fourms [insert something insulting here about Lunarfury]
B: NPCing is mindless, stupid, pointless, dumb, ***, wast of itime, wast of effort, wast of server space, only here to keep carebares like erm well u know who happy.
C: NPCing has nothing over pvp, balance the game to npcing lol!!! npcing is extream? WTF. how many times can you have fun doing the same mission over and over again let alone call it extream, what do you gain from it, some isk? who gives a **** about isk. this game is based on pvp and would crash with no pvp but without agent *****s game would be fine.
D: im one of the highest skilled megathron pilots in game, both SP wise and personal skill wise. i never saaid i cant agent *****, just that its a LOT easier to do it in a stupid raven.
E: with antimatter and rail or blasters they use so much cap that is very hard to tank. infact you cant run your guns with no cap mods, it takes 3 cap recharger t2s just TO RUN YOUR GUNS
F: get a clue
G: 100mil to anyone that can show me a megathron solo a hard lvl 4 in the same time or less than raven.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:46:00 -
[128]
"cap injecters, well first gedden > apoc
then gedden got its 3 mids, you definitly need 2 sensor booster. and then i guess you could place a cap injecter in the last but a tracking comp adds range[which is practiclly dmg] and lots of tracking."
So, you are saying you have to make actual choice between having cap to shoot a plenty, and having little cap but shooting farther and hitting harder? And can't have both combined with top damage output?
ohnoes. how unfair ;s
(btw, tachyon beams have higher base tracking than 425 mm rails do with maxed out Megathron bonus... and that's with improved, 7.5% tracking bonus on Mega. So all that remains is extra range and here single low-slot tracking enhancer work just as well as single tracking computer you'd fit in that mid...)
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.19 15:52:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Lunarfury
[
Also what is wrong with pve? That is how a lot of people make money to fund their pvp stuff. Not everybody wants to mine you know. I personally have 300k or sp in Industral and rest of my 17.4m sp is in combat. I rather do missions to earn money than mining anyday. One play style doesn't fit all. That 0.25% damage increase will make you lose 0.25% faster at most when you have no em/therm resistance at all. lol
whats wrong with agents: lots, but this thred isnt about agents
yes its how LOTS of ppl make isk to fund their erm wait their what, WTF agent ***** PVP. you mean its how they fund their losses to ganks by pirates.
yes some pvpers do agent mission to fund their pvp side, but they are lame ass crap pvpers. the two top pvpers in this game i know, guess what they do to make isk when they are low?
they take a BS to low sec/0.0 and kill some agent runners, get t2 guns, t2 cap rechargers, t2 gear, faction gear, ransoms and pay for their stuff that way. 1: you have fun 2: you hurt ur enermy 3: its challanging
i never known an uber pvper to say "meh i need isk for a blah blah blah let me go ***** my agent, they always say lets go kill some players in 0.0 and make isk, uber or what"
i have less than 50k in industry and another 36mil sp in pure combat if we measuring e-peens
"id rather do missions thatn mining anyday"
this is a selfish, stupid answer. both of those activities are for carebares
so id rather do the one that i can finish quickes, if it takes me 1h to mine the isk i need to 1h and 1sec to do missions for it with the same isk id do mining. if it took me 1h missions or 1h 1min mining id do the missions if it was the same risk
you think just becasue you shoot rats that it makes u somehow uber compaired to the miners?
i think cos i pvp im at the top of the food chain, just like you look down upon miners [for no good reason tbh] i look down upon you [also no good reason, there might be a very good reason why you like spenind you RL cash doing the same repetitice missions over and over and over for isk so you can pimp out your erm mission BS]
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:00:00 -
[130]
Originally by: gron alt
whats wrong with agents: lots, but this thred isnt about agents
yes its how LOTS of ppl make isk to fund their erm wait their what, WTF agent ***** PVP. you mean its how they fund their losses to ganks by pirates.
yes some pvpers do agent mission to fund their pvp side, but they are lame ass crap pvpers. the two top pvpers in this game i know, guess what they do to make isk when they are low?
they take a BS to low sec/0.0 and kill some agent runners, get t2 guns, t2 cap rechargers, t2 gear, faction gear, ransoms and pay for their stuff that way. 1: you have fun 2: you hurt ur enermy 3: its challanging
i never known an uber pvper to say "meh i need isk for a blah blah blah let me go ***** my agent, they always say lets go kill some players in 0.0 and make isk, uber or what"
i have less than 50k in industry and another 36mil sp in pure combat if we measuring e-peens
"id rather do missions thatn mining anyday"
this is a selfish, stupid answer. both of those activities are for carebares
so id rather do the one that i can finish quickes, if it takes me 1h to mine the isk i need to 1h and 1sec to do missions for it with the same isk id do mining. if it took me 1h missions or 1h 1min mining id do the missions if it was the same risk
you think just becasue you shoot rats that it makes u somehow uber compaired to the miners?
i think cos i pvp im at the top of the food chain, just like you look down upon miners [for no good reason tbh] i look down upon you [also no good reason, there might be a very good reason why you like spenind you RL cash doing the same repetitice missions over and over and over for isk so you can pimp out your erm mission BS]
You are so tough. I bow to your PVP prowess, oh Sir Alt.
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Spokesperson
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:04:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 16:04:20
Originally by: gron alt
Originally by: Lunarfury
lol, so you sux at doing lvl 4 missions in megathron and that means everybody else also bad at it? I know a lot of people doing lvl 4 in megathron and doing faster than most who do it in raven and apoc. Until you can go into lvl 4 missions, face full spawn aggro due to buggs and still able to finish it, then you should just keep talk about what you know. Pvp ganking takes less skill than solo those hard lvl 4 missions. Until pvp, agent runners use balanced ship setup and push every single modules to their limite. For pvp, you got the turrets, scramblers/web, and dmg mods. It shows nothing about weapon balance since very few actually tank because one cannot tank a gank anyway. Pvp is just too extreme to be used for balance.
Most of the pvp fights last way too short to make cap/tanking matter. Also, what is wrong with pve? That is how a lot of people make money to fund their pvp stuff. Not everybody wants to mine you know.
put it this way
A: FFS i already got a warning for being rude on fourms [insert something insulting here about Lunarfury]
B: NPCing is mindless, stupid, pointless, dumb, ***, wast of itime, wast of effort, wast of server space, only here to keep carebares like erm well u know who happy.
C: NPCing has nothing over pvp, balance the game to npcing lol!!! npcing is extream? WTF. how many times can you have fun doing the same mission over and over again let alone call it extream, what do you gain from it, some isk? who gives a **** about isk. this game is based on pvp and would crash with no pvp but without agent *****s game would be fine.
D: im one of the highest skilled megathron pilots in game, both SP wise and personal skill wise. i never saaid i cant agent *****, just that its a LOT easier to do it in a stupid raven.
E: with antimatter and rail or blasters they use so much cap that is very hard to tank. infact you cant run your guns with no cap mods, it takes 3 cap recharger t2s just TO RUN YOUR GUNS
F: get a clue
G: 100mil to anyone that can show me a megathron solo a hard lvl 4 in the same time or less than raven.
Holy crap!!!
YOU MUST BE THE MOST UBER PVP PILOT IN ALL OF EVE. YOU ARE KING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TOO BAD THE SPELLING REVEALS YOUR MENTAL AGE.
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:05:00 -
[132]
Originally by: j0sephine
"cap injecters, well first gedden > apoc
then gedden got its 3 mids, you definitly need 2 sensor booster. and then i guess you could place a cap injecter in the last but a tracking comp adds range[which is practiclly dmg] and lots of tracking."
So, you are saying you have to make actual choice between having cap to shoot a plenty, and having little cap but shooting farther and hitting harder? And can't have both combined with top damage output?
ohnoes. how unfair ;s
(btw, tachyon beams have higher base tracking than 425 mm rails do with maxed out Megathron bonus... and that's with improved, 7.5% tracking bonus on Mega. So all that remains is extra range and here single low-slot tracking enhancer work just as well as single tracking computer you'd fit in that mid...)
you got me wrong
im a MEGATHRON USER
im saying the gedden is overpowered erm with tacs and sniper
lets me repete, overpowered
so we are saying the same thing
and fyi its NOT as big a problem as people are making out, i mean if u exclude t2 ammo [which ofcourse is new and need fixing/chaning]
so stay in the world of t1 ammo for a moment.
look at the optimal + falloff of a mega with 2 tracking comps and 3 tracking enhancers versus a tach ged which can only fit 1 tracking comp and 2 tracking enhancers. the mega can sit outside the ged optimal and 2x falloff, granted it will do low dmg but it wount be hit at all. with those setups iirc the difference in optiaml is about 15%. still i agree the gedden is overpowered but there is a range where the gedden will no longer hit the megathron at all and the mega will hit the gedden [t2 ammo fubers that though]
also the standard tach ged setup has no room for wcs but the average sniper mega or temp has 2 or more, now this is ofcourse optional and those megas/tempest could tank/eccm/speed those slots insted of wcs or even more range and tracking and lock speed ect. so one could say. well ged more DPS but mega more HP [if u plate one low slot insted of std stab]
or that the temp does less DPS than the ged but its got uber sensor strength [2x eccm]
ect
still though overall i agree with everything said:
the gedden was nice with tacks before, very nice infact. with 2% mmore damage its ermm 2% nicer.
imo it shouldnt of got that boost, but its a good steping stone for boosting the otehr BS [imo BS too weak dmg wise VS AF/cepters/hacs ect. WTF with taranis doing 250dps and raven doing 700. or deimos doing more dps than a raven]
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.19 16:10:00 -
[133]
Edited by: gron alt on 19/03/2006 16:12:34
Originally by: Spokesperson
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 16:04:20
Originally by: gron alt
Originally by: Lunarfury
lol, so you sux at doing lvl 4 missions in megathron and that means everybody else also bad at it? I know a lot of people doing lvl 4 in megathron and doing faster than most who do it in raven and apoc. Until you can go into lvl 4 missions, face full spawn aggro due to buggs and still able to finish it, then you should just keep talk about what you know. Pvp ganking takes less skill than solo those hard lvl 4 missions. Until pvp, agent runners use balanced ship setup and push every single modules to their limite. For pvp, you got the turrets, scramblers/web, and dmg mods. It shows nothing about weapon balance since very few actually tank because one cannot tank a gank anyway. Pvp is just too extreme to be used for balance.
Most of the pvp fights last way too short to make cap/tanking matter. Also, what is wrong with pve? That is how a lot of people make money to fund their pvp stuff. Not everybody wants to mine you know.
put it this way
A: FFS i already got a warning for being rude on fourms [insert something insulting here about Lunarfury]
B: NPCing is mindless, stupid, pointless, dumb, ***, wast of itime, wast of effort, wast of server space, only here to keep carebares like erm well u know who happy.
C: NPCing has nothing over pvp, balance the game to npcing lol!!! npcing is extream? WTF. how many times can you have fun doing the same mission over and over again let alone call it extream, what do you gain from it, some isk? who gives a **** about isk. this game is based on pvp and would crash with no pvp but without agent *****s game would be fine.
D: im one of the highest skilled megathron pilots in game, both SP wise and personal skill wise. i never saaid i cant agent *****, just that its a LOT easier to do it in a stupid raven.
E: with antimatter and rail or blasters they use so much cap that is very hard to tank. infact you cant run your guns with no cap mods, it takes 3 cap recharger t2s just TO RUN YOUR GUNS
F: get a clue
G: 100mil to anyone that can show me a megathron solo a hard lvl 4 in the same time or less than raven.
Holy crap!!!
YOU MUST BE THE MOST UBER PVP PILOT IN ALL OF EVE. YOU ARE KING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TOO BAD THE SPELLING REVEALS YOUR MENTAL AGE.
ever thought it could be a real medical reason for that?
"Dyslexia is a cognitive deficit in which a person's reading and/or writing ability is significantly lower than that which would be predicted by his or her general level of intelligence."
doesnt bother me, means i am more a math person and science person. id rather be a **** speller and great at what i study and enjoy than vice versa or even average at both
im 20 fyi and study physics at a great uni in the UK, i can tell you for sure im smarter than the average person, granted my spelling sucks but it doesnt bother me, and useing it as a way to boost your argument or lower mine just shows how **** your argument is.
|
gron alt
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 16:17:00 -
[134]
or i could be
a non native english speaker
or i could just be a lazy sod who dont give a ****e bout his spelling
or i could be doing all this just to make you fell bad
or perhaps i could be a really ****e touch typer
thing is you will never know
and now back to the tacs
erm yes, boost wasnt required, they already got range bonous over the megabeams
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 16:22:00 -
[135]
Originally by: gron alt
or i could be
a non native english speaker
or i could just be a lazy sod who dont give a ****e bout his spelling
or i could be doing all this just to make you fell bad
or perhaps i could be a really ****e touch typer
or all of the above
|
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 16:57:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 14:18:07
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Check your facts. Unless you mean ranges longer then say 130-150km of course, which are rather exceptional anyway.
Lasers have the best of everything atm, except fitting requirements and extreme range. Is that a good situation ?
Yeah thats basically it
Combined with the damage bonuses 1400's or 425's are teh sniper weapons. 99.999999999999999999999999999% of all snipers either sit in a mega or a temp.
And thats not because they dont have proper laser skills.
Not to mention how crap radio crystals are, hitting for below 100 with large t2 turrets while their projectile or hybrid counterparts easily hits for 300+.
More rubbish.
That 150km i mention is before further moodification by the usage of tracking computers etc.
I for one, even when I did fight at up to 130km, never ever used Iron ammo on my mega because not matter what you do, it's simply too damn crappy.
And anyway, t2 long range ammo did away with the whole range debate nicely, we all have stupidly long range high damage ammo now don't we ?
So, what else do lasers have as disatvantage other then the fact they suck a toiny bit more at ranges over 180km ?
?
|
gron alt
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 17:06:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Originally by: Spokesperson
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 14:18:07
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Check your facts. Unless you mean ranges longer then say 130-150km of course, which are rather exceptional anyway.
Lasers have the best of everything atm, except fitting requirements and extreme range. Is that a good situation ?
Yeah thats basically it
Combined with the damage bonuses 1400's or 425's are teh sniper weapons. 99.999999999999999999999999999% of all snipers either sit in a mega or a temp.
And thats not because they dont have proper laser skills.
Not to mention how crap radio crystals are, hitting for below 100 with large t2 turrets while their projectile or hybrid counterparts easily hits for 300+.
More rubbish.
That 150km i mention is before further moodification by the usage of tracking computers etc.
I for one, even when I did fight at up to 130km, never ever used Iron ammo on my mega because not matter what you do, it's simply too damn crappy.
And anyway, t2 long range ammo did away with the whole range debate nicely, we all have stupidly long range high damage ammo now don't we ?
So, what else do lasers have as disatvantage other then the fact they suck a toiny bit more at ranges over 180km ?
?
QTF one of the things i hate is when ppl post *******s with no info, they just follow or do what everyone else does which is sub standard and usually months late
and i think you need to look past 220km before tacs on a gedden with t2 ammo does less dps than guns on any other sniper with t2 ammo. actually i think it might be even more than 250km which is ofcourse game limit
|
Spokesperson
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 17:17:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 17:19:37
Originally by: gron alt
ever thought it could be a real medical reason for that?
"Dyslexia is a cognitive deficit in which a person's reading and/or writing ability is significantly lower than that which would be predicted by his or her general level of intelligence."
Ever heard of a dictionary or better yet..........ONLINE SPELL CHECKER!!!!!!
Quote:
im 20 fyi
You had us all fooled. We would have guessed you were 14.
Your way of arguing using ALOT of bad language doesn't compute with someone being 'clever'.
I think its a good thing you study maths. Because you wont need an ounce of social intelligence when dealing with numbers.
|
Foomanshoe
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 17:17:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Crellion
They allready outdamage 425 rails and 1400 aries in all situations and you want to further increase their DPS... with a free extra dmg mod????
For Christs sake... if you want to make them better than megabeams balance megabeams... I mean rly
Apoc tanks better than Mega and Tempest and has allready marginally better DPS now you give it a bit more?
Please explain why this makes 0 (zero) sense...
Your a retard, sorry but its true.
Tachyons might have high base damage. But once skills get factored in, both rails and artillery severly overpower them.
Tachyon is supposed to be one of the highest damage guns in the game. It has by far the highest fitting requirements (4250 grid each, nothing else comes close), and by far the highest cap usage (around 120 base). There is also NO ship that gives it a damage bonus, and the only ship that gives it a ROF bonus doesnt have enough grid to fit any reasonable number of them.
This is a problem with all Large lasers at the moment. They need Heatsinks to be even remotely competitive since it is the only place they get damage bonuses.
Also, 0.25x is not much so you should stop crying. Basically it just helps move Tachys closer to artillery.
_______________________________________________
Deadspace For Dead space!
Originally by: Oveur
To the nerfmobile!
|
gron alt
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 17:43:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 17:19:37
Originally by: gron alt
Ever heard of a dictionary or better yet..........ONLINE SPELL CHECKER!!!!!!
Quote:
im 20 fyi
You had us all fooled. We would have guessed you were 14.
Your way of arguing using ALOT of bad language doesn't compute with someone being 'clever'.
I think its a good thing you study maths. Because you wont need an ounce of social intelligence when dealing with numbers.
physics u moron
i know im uber and all and that you love me, so i suggest you start another titled "why i love gron" and we can all talk about views about me and why im overpwoered and how i should be nerfed. if not, stick to the topic of this thred
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Spokesperson
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 17:51:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 17:53:24
Originally by: gron alt
physics u moron
i know im uber and all and that you love me, so i suggest you start another titled "why i love gron" and we can all talk about views about me and why im overpwoered and how i should be nerfed. if not, stick to the topic of this thred
Im suprised someone as 'clever' as you are unable to use quote tags properly.
Quote:
talk about views about me and why im overpwoered
The only thing thats overpowered is your mouth.
|
gron alt
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 17:58:00 -
[142]
Edited by: gron alt on 19/03/2006 18:01:52
Originally by: Foomanshoe
Originally by: Crellion
They allready outdamage 425 rails and 1400 aries in all situations and you want to further increase their DPS... with a free extra dmg mod????
For Christs sake... if you want to make them better than megabeams balance megabeams... I mean rly
Apoc tanks better than Mega and Tempest and has allready marginally better DPS now you give it a bit more?
Please explain why this makes 0 (zero) sense...
Your a retard, sorry but its true.
Tachyons might have high base damage. But once skills get factored in, both rails and artillery severly overpower them.
Tachyon is supposed to be one of the highest damage guns in the game. It has by far the highest fitting requirements (4250 grid each, nothing else comes close), and by far the highest cap usage (around 120 base). There is also NO ship that gives it a damage bonus, and the only ship that gives it a ROF bonus doesnt have enough grid to fit any reasonable number of them.
This is a problem with all Large lasers at the moment. They need Heatsinks to be even remotely competitive since it is the only place they get damage bonuses.
Also, 0.25x is not much so you should stop crying. Basically it just helps move Tachys closer to artillery.
he is right you are wrong
tell me what is wrong with the following setup on a gedden
7 tac t2
2 t2 sensor boosters: 1 t2 tracking comp
4dmg mods: 2 rcu t2: 2x t2 tracking enhancers
[could take one dmg mod off and add a med rep and would still do the most dmg, could remove a dmg mod and add a crp ect its not that hard a ship to fit,]
all fits fine with -3% cpu inplant [less than 1 mil isk]
and that setup on a gedden does a lot more dps than any other sniper bar capital ships at all the ranges it can lock at. also has the highest tracking of all the other snipers
not to mention its tier one.
tbh we do more harm than good when we talk about balance on the forums, i mean ffs people read this stuff and learn about the best setups for the most powerfull sniper out there and take off their crap megabeams or what ever they where useing and we face them in battle, could just be better to keep it quite
|
Spokesperson
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 18:00:00 -
[143]
Originally by: gron alt
tell me what is wrong with the following setup on a gedden
7 tac t2
2 t2 sensor boosters: 1 t2 tracking comp
4dmg mods: 2 rcu t2: 2x t2 tracking enhancers
all fits fine with -3% cpu inplant [less than 1 mil isk]
and that setup on a gedden does a lot more dps than any other sniper bar capital ships at all the ranges it can lock at. also has the highest tracking of all the other snipers
not to mention its tier one.
Apart from the fact that that geddon will last 1 minute if being targeted while the other ships can hold a fairly decent tank while still doing almost as much damage?
You<---------------------------------------------->the point
|
gron alt
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 18:05:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: gron alt
tell me what is wrong with the following setup on a gedden
7 tac t2
2 t2 sensor boosters: 1 t2 tracking comp
4dmg mods: 2 rcu t2: 2x t2 tracking enhancers
all fits fine with -3% cpu inplant [less than 1 mil isk]
and that setup on a gedden does a lot more dps than any other sniper bar capital ships at all the ranges it can lock at. also has the highest tracking of all the other snipers
not to mention its tier one.
Apart from the fact that that geddon will last 1 minute if being targeted while the other ships can hold a fairly decent tank while still doing almost as much damage?
You<---------------------------------------------->the point
show me the money baby
dont just say stuff, prove it, gimme a sniper megathron setup that can tank? or a tempest setup that can tank
also who would want a **** non hardened tank over 2x the dmg
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 18:15:00 -
[145]
"Apart from the fact that that geddon will last 1 minute if being targeted while the other ships can hold a fairly decent tank while still doing almost as much damage?"
WTB: a tank that will last even 1 minute when made primary in your typical fleet battle...
(tanking in these sniping fests are waste of slots)
|
Haniblecter Teg
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 18:38:00 -
[146]
PEOPLE
Dont look at damage.
Look at teh kind of damage.
Tachyons still do EM/THerm
Rails Therm/kin
Projectiles, anything.
So, whatever re****ulous mathmatics you folks come up with, it isnt going to account for this. So stfu, and be quiet.
----------------------------------------
Friends Forever |
Tassi
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 19:13:00 -
[147]
Originally by: j0sephine
"cap injecters, well first gedden > apoc
then gedden got its 3 mids, you definitly need 2 sensor booster. and then i guess you could place a cap injecter in the last but a tracking comp adds range[which is practiclly dmg] and lots of tracking."
So, you are saying you have to make actual choice between having cap to shoot a plenty, and having little cap but shooting farther and hitting harder? And can't have both combined with top damage output?
ohnoes. how unfair ;s
(btw, tachyon beams have higher base tracking than 425 mm rails do with maxed out Megathron bonus... and that's with improved, 7.5% tracking bonus on Mega. So all that remains is extra range and here single low-slot tracking enhancer work just as well as single tracking computer you'd fit in that mid...)
This just proves the point that Tachyons are perfectly balanced. You need to sacrifice 1/3 medslots of your geddon just to "sustain" them shooting! As I already said, they have huge drawbacks and the planned damage increase is ok.
Benefit: abit higher dps than mega beams and more range
Drawbacks: a ***** to fit (req. 2x RCU t2), "sutainable" only by fitting a cap injector thus sacrificing VITAL midslots for sniping enhancers
Well tbh they could be a tiny bit "overpowered" on a apoc because of its higher cap and grid BUT the apoc seems to be designed to function as a tachyon platform so meh
go and cry about precision cruises instapopping inties.
|
ActiveX
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 19:17:00 -
[148]
Ok. Why is it that the tempest which gets two damage improving boni, with level 5 skills in EVERYTHING is still out damaged by geddon / apoc / mega with level 4 skills? Ive maxed out my pest skills and I still dont do near the DPS as other ships of the line. And my Burst damage is still not really that great compaired to others. Its only 10% more in most cases. That diffrence is totaly negated when the other ships fire 2 / 3 times for our one.
____________
Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000 
|
Wulfgard
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 20:11:00 -
[149]
Originally by: ActiveX
Ok. Why is it that the tempest which gets two damage improving boni, with level 5 skills in EVERYTHING is still out damaged by geddon / apoc / mega with level 4 skills? Ive maxed out my pest skills and I still dont do near the DPS as other ships of the line. And my Burst damage is still not really that great compaired to others. Its only 10% more in most cases. That diffrence is totaly negated when the other ships fire 2 / 3 times for our one.
I have both Amarr and Minmatar BS to 5 and Beam + arty spec to 5.
I wouldnt use a tempest for snipping, Geddon has less of a burst dmg but its ROF makes up for it. Note a Geddon is just a glass cannon without hp, pop very quickly, Tempest will requiere a few more hits (enough to warp out to safety, it might why it is a good choice for pvp fleet?).
I wouldnt use a Geddon for close range pvp (pulsesII), a 650sII Tempest on the other hand is a great close range ship, in the right hands, it could even kill a Torp Raven
I am pretty sure each ship as a niche, but we see too many people on these forums trying to use a ship for the wrong combat role.
HINTS: train a different race ship?
|
gron alt
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 20:47:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Wulfgard
Originally by: ActiveX
Ok. Why is it that the tempest which gets two damage improving boni, with level 5 skills in EVERYTHING is still out damaged by geddon / apoc / mega with level 4 skills? Ive maxed out my pest skills and I still dont do near the DPS as other ships of the line. And my Burst damage is still not really that great compaired to others. Its only 10% more in most cases. That diffrence is totaly negated when the other ships fire 2 / 3 times for our one.
I have both Amarr and Minmatar BS to 5 and Beam + arty spec to 5.
I wouldnt use a tempest for snipping, Geddon has less of a burst dmg but its ROF makes up for it. Note a Geddon is just a glass cannon without hp, pop very quickly, Tempest will requiere a few more hits (enough to warp out to safety, it might why it is a good choice for pvp fleet?).
I wouldnt use a Geddon for close range pvp (pulsesII), a 650sII Tempest on the other hand is a great close range ship, in the right hands, it could even kill a Torp Raven
I am pretty sure each ship as a niche, but we see too many people on these forums trying to use a ship for the wrong combat role.
HINTS: train a different race ship?
first off lol, i assume you have a 35mil sp char?
i got a 36mil sp char and he has just barly finished being great with amarr and galante, so its hard to say well tran other races, not many people, perhaps 1-2% of eve have that option, granted though that in 12months most people will have more than 1 race specilised
another problem is role play, some people are born minimatar and will stay true and not train any other race or weapon ect so they are gimped, RPH = role playing game :P
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 20:52:00 -
[151]
Edited by: j0sephine on 19/03/2006 20:53:04
"This just proves the point that Tachyons are perfectly balanced. You need to sacrifice 1/3 medslots of your geddon just to "sustain" them shooting!"
Nah, this just proves the point it is possible to reasonably setup a ship able to run tachyons for long time, as long as one gets over the kneejerk "cap booster on amarr ship, lol" reaction.
Playing with measurement of ship slots in percentages as some kind of balance proof is silly at best -- because it makes the same weapon "cost" completely different amounts on different ships. In fact, if you want to play this game then it's very easy to prove railguns are actually more expensive cap-wise to run, and it costs equal 'part' of mid slots to counter that. Which could make it sound, if one was ill-willed, that it's not the tachyons that deserve a relative boost but the railguns, instead...
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 20:58:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Ever heard of a dictionary or better yet..........ONLINE SPELL CHECKER!!!!!!
you sir, are a ******* retard. stop mocking people just because english isn't their first language. try arguing the points being raised and not how someome puts them across.
|
Jenny Spitfire
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:01:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Spokesperson
Ever heard of a dictionary or better yet..........ONLINE SPELL CHECKER!!!!!!
you sir, are a ******* retard. stop mocking people just because english isn't their first language. try arguing the points being raised and not how someome puts them across.
Sarmaul 4tw!
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Spokesperson
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:10:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 21:10:00
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Spokesperson
Ever heard of a dictionary or better yet..........ONLINE SPELL CHECKER!!!!!!
you sir, are a ******* retard. stop mocking people just because english isn't their first language. try arguing the points being raised and not how someome puts them across.
English is not MY first language either. Oh noes, I rendered your argument useless!
Can you hear that, thats the sound of a one hand applause for your brave try of defending gron alt.
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:11:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Edited by: Spokesperson on 19/03/2006 21:10:00
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Spokesperson
Ever heard of a dictionary or better yet..........ONLINE SPELL CHECKER!!!!!!
you sir, are a ******* retard. stop mocking people just because english isn't their first language. try arguing the points being raised and not how someome puts them across.
English is not MY first language either. Oh noes, I rendered your argument useless!
Can you hear that, thats the sound of a one hand applause for your brave try of defending gron alt.
congratulations, you can type better than gron.
btw, gron alt = Gronsak = old corpmate, not a trolling alt
|
Spokesperson
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:12:00 -
[156]
Originally by: j0sephine
"Apart from the fact that that geddon will last 1 minute if being targeted while the other ships can hold a fairly decent tank while still doing almost as much damage?"
WTB: a tank that will last even 1 minute when made primary in your typical fleet battle...
(tanking in these sniping fests are waste of slots)
WTS :
EVE ONLINE. A massive multiplayer roleplaying game where you can chose your own career path.
Not everything in EVE is all about ganking
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:17:00 -
[157]
"WTS :
EVE ONLINE. A massive multiplayer roleplaying game where you can chose your own career path.
Not everything in EVE is all about ganking"
"I recognize i was wrong and my argument held no weight" would be both faster to type, and more relevant to the subject at hand...
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:19:00 -
[158]
* gets popcorn
this should be fun
|
Jenny Spitfire
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:22:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 19/03/2006 21:21:41
/me gives Sarmaul nachos.
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:28:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me gives Sarmaul nachos.
got any dip?
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:29:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me gives Sarmaul nachos.
got any dip?
Salsa?
please
|
Jenny Spitfire
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:29:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me gives Sarmaul nachos.
got any dip?
Salsa?
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Jenny Spitfire
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:30:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me gives Sarmaul nachos.
got any dip?
Salsa?
please
There you go.
/me gives Sarmaul a salsa dip.
Hola!
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:33:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me gives Sarmaul nachos.
got any dip?
Salsa?
please
There you go.
/me gives Sarmaul a salsa dip.
Hola!
Hola!
* gets out his guitar and oversized novelty hat
|
Jenny Spitfire
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:40:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 19/03/2006 21:40:30
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me gives Sarmaul nachos.
got any dip?
Salsa?
please
There you go.
/me gives Sarmaul a salsa dip.
Hola!
Hola!
* gets out his guitar and oversized novelty hat
* heart beats faster.
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:43:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 19/03/2006 21:40:30
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me gives Sarmaul nachos.
got any dip?
Salsa?
please
There you go.
/me gives Sarmaul a salsa dip.
Hola!
Hola!
* gets out his guitar and oversized novelty hat
* heart beats faster.
dance for me my sexy senorita
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.03.19 21:44:00 -
[167]
and on that note I'm going to stop as I've annoyed the mods enough as it is :)
|
Crellion
|
Posted - 2006.03.20 08:19:00 -
[168]
Mods please clean this thread... I ll "clean" Jenny when next I log on in 1v-
|
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2006.03.20 08:38:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Foomanshoe
Tachyons might have high base damage. But once skills get factored in, both rails and artillery severly overpower them.
More people should get more of a clue before posting rubbish like this.
Altho, it's what I used to think too, since nothing else makes sense really seeing how both tachs and megabeams have the best of everything else don't they ?
But, I checked.
A tachyon user in an apoc at Amarr BS level 1 will outdamage my megathron with Gallente BS 5. His guns will outtrack mine, have nearly the same range, no reloading, no ammo switching delays, no cargo needed for ammo, and a relatively lower cap use per shot then mine.
The one and only drawback: em and thermal damage.
Ok, so convince me, quantify the effect of the em&thermal of a fully fitted apoc with fleet/gank setup using tachs respectively megabeams compared to the kinetic&thermal damage of my similarly fitted megathron.
Let's see what happens shall we ?
|
Zarks
|
Posted - 2006.03.20 09:20:00 -
[170]
Problem is people posting here only use these guns for long range warfare and with many ships involved. They donŠt care about tanking only most total dmg with highest range/tracking. Everything else is not an issue for them.
What about the people who fight alot in 2-3ppl gangs or even alone then?
Fitting tachyons is a pain on an armageddon and even an apoc and you need those low slots for other modules.
Think about this also.
___________________________________________________
Looking for Chelm/Draclira mega beam lasers. Also looking for cruise launcher II BPO, isk available. |
Apollo Balthar
|
Posted - 2006.03.20 09:24:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: j0sephine
"Apart from the fact that that geddon will last 1 minute if being targeted while the other ships can hold a fairly decent tank while still doing almost as much damage?"
WTB: a tank that will last even 1 minute when made primary in your typical fleet battle...
(tanking in these sniping fests are waste of slots)
WTS :
EVE ONLINE. A massive multiplayer roleplaying game where you can chose your own career path.
Not everything in EVE is all about ganking
WTB: antitrollpotion willing to pay 1000 gold
Live by the sword, die by my guns...!
|
Spokesperson
|
Posted - 2006.03.20 09:58:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
A tachyon user in an apoc at Amarr BS level 1 will outdamage my megathron with Gallente BS 5.
Hey there.
Im sorry are you taking the ****? I have to ask because you suggest that tachs outdamage the mega that has ship damage bonus
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:04:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: Rod Blaine
A tachyon user in an apoc at Amarr BS level 1 will outdamage my megathron with Gallente BS 5.
Hey there.
Im sorry are you taking the ****? I have to ask because you suggest that tachs outdamage the mega that has ship damage bonus
Yeah, cause lasers have built in damage mods. Their raw DPS is much higher than hybdrids or projectiles, so people fitted them a lot on scorps, Ravens and other ships 2003.
Lasers without any ship bonus outdamage most other guns with single or double damage bonus on their ship. Basicly a typhoon with pulse lasers will do more damage than a typhoon with autocannons. Tempest does only 30 DPS less when fitting lasers (it is one of the rare Matari ships with double damage bonus).
Thats also the reason why people say that lasers are easy to train for. Most ships have no damage bonus and so it doesnt matter if its lvl1 or lvl5, just the duration of your weapons will suffer from low skills, not the damage (execpt for ships like omen and geddon, which are the amarr double damage bonus ships basicly).
Sincerly Nafri
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:08:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: Rod Blaine
A tachyon user in an apoc at Amarr BS level 1 will outdamage my megathron with Gallente BS 5.
Hey there.
Im sorry are you taking the ****? I have to ask because you suggest that tachs outdamage the mega that has ship damage bonus
at the moment with galante bs 5 and amarr bs 2 the apoc out damages the megathron by 8% when you add the new improved tac t2 it will b over 10% and you got better tracking and burst dmg
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Theron Gyrow
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:50:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: Rod Blaine
A tachyon user in an apoc at Amarr BS level 1 will outdamage my megathron with Gallente BS 5.
Hey there.
Im sorry are you taking the ****? I have to ask because you suggest that tachs outdamage the mega that has ship damage bonus
And this, people, is WHY YOU SHOULD CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE POSTING!
That is indeed the case.
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Gradient's forum |
Spokesperson
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:21:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: Rod Blaine
A tachyon user in an apoc at Amarr BS level 1 will outdamage my megathron with Gallente BS 5.
Hey there.
Im sorry are you taking the ****? I have to ask because you suggest that tachs outdamage the mega that has ship damage bonus
And this, people, is WHY YOU SHOULD CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE POSTING!
That is indeed the case.
WOW SWEET THANKS FOR LETTING US ALL KNOW!!11111111111-1
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Spokesperson
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:22:00 -
[177]
Originally by: gron alt
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: Rod Blaine
A tachyon user in an apoc at Amarr BS level 1 will outdamage my megathron with Gallente BS 5.
Hey there.
Im sorry are you taking the ****? I have to ask because you suggest that tachs outdamage the mega that has ship damage bonus
at the moment with galante bs 5 and amarr bs 2 the apoc out damages the megathron by 8% when you add the new improved tac t2 it will b over 10% and you got better tracking and burst dmg
I might be in denial but Im really having a hard time accepting this.
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Exuscon
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:46:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Exuscon on 20/03/2006 11:48:16
I killed a BS other day that attacked me leaving a .4 station dock.
I guess he thought I had long range lasers on.
I had 6 T2 Blasters on my Amarr cruiser. I use that weaps for rats.
I just orbited him and beat the hell out of him. I repaired all his drone damage done to me.
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Theron Gyrow
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:50:00 -
[179]
Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 20/03/2006 11:52:02
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: gron alt
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: Rod Blaine
A tachyon user in an apoc at Amarr BS level 1 will outdamage my megathron with Gallente BS 5.
Hey there.
Im sorry are you taking the ****? I have to ask because you suggest that tachs outdamage the mega that has ship damage bonus
at the moment with galante bs 5 and amarr bs 2 the apoc out damages the megathron by 8% when you add the new improved tac t2 it will b over 10% and you got better tracking and burst dmg
I might be in denial but Im really having a hard time accepting this.
Understandable. 
Numbers:
Tachyon I damage mod (possible new values): 4.25 (4.5)
Tachyon RoF: 12.5 secs
Dam mod/RoF = 0.34/sec (0.36/sec)
8 guns, total mod 2.72/sec (2.88/sec)
425mm I damage mod: 2.75
425mm RoF: 9.5625
Dam mod/RoF = 0.2876/sec
With 25% ship bonus = 0.3595/sec
7 guns, total mod 2.5163/sec
2.72/2.5163 = 1.081, currently Apoc does 8% more damage than a Mega.
2.88/2.5163 = 1.145, after the tachyon change Apoc would outdamage the Mega by 15% or so.
Tech 2 is just 20% more damage to both, other skills improve the damage equally for both, hybrid ammo and laser crystals have the same raw damage values.
Tracking of tachyons: 0.0139205
Tracking of 425mms: 0.009625
Tracking of 425mms on Mega with 37.5% tracking bonus: 0.013234375
Apoc tracks 5.2% better than Mega with the improved tracking bonus.
With Amarr Battleship skill at level 2, three damage mods, maxed cap skills, no cap modules and Aurora ammo (optimal 186k), a sniperpoc runs out of cap after firing for 118 seconds - any sniping fight should be over by that time.
If there is an error in my numbers, I'm sure someone will let me know. If not, I hope you are convinced.
--
Gradient's forum |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.20 12:37:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 20/03/2006 12:38:04
Everytime we get one of these threads, I start wondering why I'm still training Minmatar. When training T2 large lasers would only take me a month, and a month more for Amarr BS 5 :S
We struggle to get our broken weapons and ships looked at, we get barely there fixes (Typhoon), and Amarr get random buffs where no problem exists.
There used to be a sig here, but I got bored of it.
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gron alt
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Posted - 2006.03.20 12:38:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: gron alt
Originally by: Spokesperson
Originally by: Rod Blaine
A tachyon user in an apoc at Amarr BS level 1 will outdamage my megathron with Gallente BS 5.
Hey there.
Im sorry are you taking the ****? I have to ask because you suggest that tachs outdamage the mega that has ship damage bonus
at the moment with galante bs 5 and amarr bs 2 the apoc out damages the megathron by 8% when you add the new improved tac t2 it will b over 10% and you got better tracking and burst dmg
I might be in denial but Im really having a hard time accepting this.
so u admit a 15% DPS nerf is in order
no matter how much you beat your head over it the tac ged is more damage/tracking at any range it can lock up to. which is about 210km.
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