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ArcticFox
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:13:00 -
[1]
Edited by: ArcticFox on 17/03/2006 08:14:18
Quite simply, I'm writing this as an expression of my deep sorrow at how little understanding there seems to be of the way Eve works. Many many threads popping up these days are about 'this side vs. that side' or 'this style vs. that style', among them the everpresent threads along the lines of 'we don't want to pvp and there are more of us.'
I think the main thing that leads to this is a misunderstanding of the kind of game Eve really is, as if there were a 'this is the pve side, where players only interact with NPCs, and this is the pvp side, where you get to pvp if you want.' The simple fact is that Eve is not black and white. There isn't a pvp side and a non-pvp side, there isn't an industrial side and a fighter side (speaking within the realm of those who accept pvp, which I would argue includes both), there aren't good guys and bad guys.
What we have instead is a huge gray area, that gets darker or lighter on either end, but never turns solid. PvP in Eve is not something that is switched on and off, you don't go to the proper area and flag yourself up. Moreover, pvp does not include only firing your guns at another ship, the Eve market is largely driven by player competition which would be difficult to label as pve. The role of the player in shaping their own game is so intrinsic to Eve that it would simply not be Eve anymore if players lost the ability to influence eachother through conflict of various kinds.
I know our good Devs know this, which is why I don't fear they'll cave to the pressures of new subscribers who like a more... tranquil playing environment. I do wish that more players, however, would understand it. It's not that you have this thing over here that is pvp and then the rest of the game that isn't pvp, it's that it's all pvp in some facet or reflection of it. Even when groups of people are sitting around mining veldspar without a care in the world that influences and is influenced by PvP, economical and combat.
This is what I love about this game, that it's not simple, it's not black and white, it's many-layered and interconnected and you can't just remove one chunk because some group doesn't like it, because it's so deeply interwoven with all the other chunks.
That's my rant for today, you may now proceed to misinterpret/ignore/disembowel my post.
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"There's no +6 Sword of WTFPWN in Eve." - Er... Some person on the forum... |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:16:00 -
[2]
The devs are trying to make EVE black and white.
They're removing the shades of gray with each single patch for like 2 years.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
ArcticFox
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:18:00 -
[3]
Edited by: ArcticFox on 17/03/2006 08:19:11
 Originally by: Tachy
The devs are trying to make EVE black and white.
They're removing the shades of gray with each single patch for like 2 years.
Reeally, how so exactly?
Humor me, cite a couple examples of how the game has been engineered to be more polarized between PvP and non-PvP.
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"There's no +6 Sword of WTFPWN in Eve." - Er... Some person on the forum... |
Jack Rippster
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:25:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tachy
The devs are trying to make EVE black and white.
They're removing the shades of gray with each single patch for like 2 years.
Huh? any links?
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:26:00 -
[5]
He is correct.
Even with the graphic settings turnt down as low as I can get them, EVE is still in colour.
Of course people whine, its cause your sig sucks
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ArcticFox
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: w0rmy
He is correct.
Even with the graphic settings turnt down as low as I can get them, EVE is still in colour.
 <3 you too w0rmy, maybe I'll see you in PF later.
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"There's no +6 Sword of WTFPWN in Eve." - Er... Some person on the forum... |
Mirph
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:58:00 -
[7]
Man, u have spoken my heart. i agree with every word of yours. there are no sides, just players and players driven market. when u go to low sec, u have to understand the risk. everyone has a role in this game. and we intend to play them well. yes, maybe i like to pve more, doesn't put me into carebear. if u want to pvp, fine, u will have ur chance. i am not afraid of losing ships. high risk always brings high profit. i love doing trading to low sec, but i won't whine when i lost my ship and goods to some pirate player, because we have our roles. they r pirates and i am businessman. i dont like ppl to separate sides and say who is better or worse. this is a player driven world and play ur part or leave it. no arguement presents.
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Road Runner |
Za Po
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tachy
The devs are trying to make EVE black and white.
They're removing the shades of gray with each single patch for like 2 years.
Any examples? Any at all?
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Do you have a solution to the BM and instas problem? Test it against the bookmark requirements. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:13:00 -
[9]
The op is entirely correct.
Getting the xtremists on both end to interpret his post correctly is another matter 
Sometimes I wish CCP required an entrance exam for new players. So that we can at least make sure people get the theory behing it all straight before they are thrown in the deep end.
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Stig Caldar
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:37:00 -
[10]
Well written Artic Fox, personally I never thought Eve would grow into such a massive playerbase, but Eve has continued to stand true to it's roots...
...for all those people who remember when 5,000 people logged on was a lot, it's been a strange journey, CCP have listened to it's players, but not been overly swayed by them, which IMO is a good thing.
Changes have not always been easy to grasp, and sometimes changes to various things have been questioned, but accepted in the end.
I happen to like the fact that this game is made for so many different types of gamer, and also glad that so many people have lasted this long in Eve - I love bumping into people that I either fought or worked alongside years ago.....
.... it's a true credit to the designers, writers, artists etc that are in CCP.
I bet they never imagined for a moment that so many different people would play their once ' little' game!
Hopefully it will stay true to the original and not be pressured into unneccessary changes.
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Dyntheos Naabal
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:43:00 -
[11]
EvE online
should be changed to,
PvP online
I think people would then get the idea what EvE is all about.
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babyblue
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:44:00 -
[12]
I remember when 3000 people logging on was a lot. 
Been playing that long and I'm still crap.
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Jowen Datloran
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:44:00 -
[13]
I try to do my part not to let this bad "dividing" trend generalize and spread. Both on forums and in guidance to rookies.
Hopefully some appreciate it.
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Main as main can be.
Freelance producer of:
Spike M hybrid ammo (1k/unit)
Damnation command cruiser (200m/unit) Now with BYOM deal, see bio for details. |
Hohenheim OfLight
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:46:00 -
[14]
Speaking for the "anti pvp" camp,
Personally I dont think there is any thing wrong with the way eve is, but we have notcied that pvp'ers wine on forums things get changed.
Hence the anti pvp camp as come in to play to counter wine, TBH we dont ever expect eve to be changed into a pve game, but to counter the pvper's we have to have = strong but aposing arugment's.
In the hope to keep the status que or to at least pull any change a few step's back wards to wards the middle.
It's not that where anti pvp, its just that we have seen what the 23 and the pvp, lobby have achived with their wines, and have stepped up to the plate to keep are corner of eve the way we like it.
None of us really want the game to be changed drastically in any ones favour, but if there is no anti pvp voice, then there is only the pvp voice, there for.
For the sake of balance we must speake out.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:57:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 17/03/2006 11:02:11
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 17/03/2006 11:00:32
The [23].
(assuming people consider me part of that. It's a joke btw, it doesnt and never will exist, we do not coordinate posts or whatever, and we don't have any more influence then any other on what CCP does other then that maybe, just maybe, a tiny percentage of what CCP implements can be seen in ideas previously posted by a few players on these forums)
The 23 don't whine, no correct that, I don't whine. I argument and I opinionate. I'm not an extremist combat-pvp fan. Sure I participate in it, but only a fraction of my online time. And in no way do I propagate the changing of Eve into a full pvp combat game.
Better still, if people would actually read posts more then reply to them, they'd know that I and laot of others named by you are actually the most vocal proponents of CCP putting more effort into the economics of Eve for example. Into the RPG side of Eve. Into a system that empowers people rather then just make everything serve the end goal of territorial conquest and pvp combat.
But yeah, I guess people don't read enough. Even catch myself doing it I must admit.
If people are itnerested in a decent discussion rather then an exchang eof whines, you know that you have a good participant in me, and in many fo the people that frequent these forums and would be taken to be part of that [23] group you refer to as whiners.
On the other hand, the amount of really constructive posters that take a viewpoint more to the 'carebear' side (no labelling intended), I can count on one hand.
That group might be called the [4] if i'd have to comprise it right here and now.
in the mean while:
Quote:
It's not that where anti pvp, its just that we have seen what the 23 and the pvp, lobby have achived with their wines, and have stepped up to the plate to keep are corner of eve the way we like it.
Tell me what we've 'achieved' with our 'whining' please.
Seriously.
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Vladimir Ilych
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:08:00 -
[16]
I enjoy and appreciate all the aspects of EVE I have tried and look forward to trying all the things I have not yet done. The games is great as it is. The OP is correct, it is all shades of grey.
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
in the mean while:
Quote:
It's not that where anti pvp, its just that we have seen what the 23 and the pvp, lobby have achived with their wines, and have stepped up to the plate to keep are corner of eve the way we like it.
Tell me what we've 'achieved' with our 'whining' please.
Seriously.
I argued strongly against can flagging, even though it can provide me with endless fun.
Carebears demanded it, with no thought to consequence.
I wish my whines were listened to more, tbh.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Hohenheim OfLight
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:10:00 -
[18]
Ok So wHinne may not be the best word to use, and as for what you have achived, you maged to get instas nuffed on the test server, which mean's you have achived getting the devs to look at hings from your point of veiw, and have achived "mind share" (Thou not sure if thats the right term not i have typed it)
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:16:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 17/03/2006 11:16:11
Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight
Ok So wHinne may not be the best word to use, and as for what you have achived, you maged to get instas nuffed on the test server, which mean's you have achived getting the devs to look at hings from your point of veiw, and have achived "mind share" (Thou not sure if thats the right term not i have typed it)
Hehe, actually I was historically against a sweeping nerfing of instas. I can be found arguing in the idea forum about them all the time, saying that removing them without cushioning the traveltime related functions with a new mechanic for example would cause far too much damage to overall gameplay.
There's more where that came from.
CCP don't actually listen to us as far as the greater course of development goes, and I post here less to convince them then to try and provide the insights some people obviously lack as to the nature of Eve, or to try and help CCP along in setting their own course by discussion ideas and unlcoking new angles sometimes.
Not because I wouldn't want to convicne CCP, but because I don't need to. By and large CCP think the same about Eve as I do. You'll have to take my word for that I'm afraid.
In the mean while, I just like arguing
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight
Ok So wHinne may not be the best word to use, and as for what you have achived, you maged to get instas nuffed on the test server, which mean's you have achived getting the devs to look at hings from your point of veiw, and have achived "mind share" (Thou not sure if thats the right term not i have typed it)
You are looking at it the wrong way.
We are not influencing the Devs, we just share the same outlook.
You have to accept that the Devs are not under some sort of forum induced mind control, they just don't share your vision of Eve.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Corp Scammer
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:22:00 -
[21]
the devs are more nfluenced by the data mining they get stats on to rebalance stuff than the 23 - tho the 23 have a following esp the BOB 3 that make up a large portion of this group
Other reps are dark sinkari of FIX and some of the ASCN guys
CCP: requested feature please - quite simple really.
For CEOs, days since last login details on all members in their Corp. this will help manage inactives and those that dont log in can be removed. |
Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:23:00 -
[22]
OT:
Ollo, would you please put a seperator in your sig - not having one bugs the hell out of me.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:23:00 -
[23]
Avon should be female tbh.
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Avon should be female tbh.
I'd date her!
Of course people whine, its cause your sig sucks
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Avon should be female tbh.
For you, I could be.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Corp Scammer
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Avon should be female tbh.
For you, I could be.
just call it avonessa and youre set to go 
CCP: requested feature please - quite simple really.
For CEOs, days since last login details on all members in their Corp. this will help manage inactives and those that dont log in can be removed. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:26:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 17/03/2006 11:26:33
Originally by: Corp Scammer
the devs are more nfluenced by the data mining they get stats on to rebalance stuff than the 23 - tho the 23 have a following esp the BOB 3 that make up a large portion of this group
Other reps are dark sinkari of FIX and some of the ASCN guys
Hehe, BoB have less to do with what I post then my grandma does.
Neither me nor Avon were born in BoB you know
(Oh, and quit the datamining whinage already. Devs datamine to see the connections between features and to quantify them. Their decisions aren't made because of data, but with assistance of it. Tool, not cause)
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Hohenheim OfLight
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Avon
OT:
Ollo, would you please put a seperator in your sig - not having one bugs the hell out of me.
I have the same thing with Corp Scammer, I keep reading it and it does my head in.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:30:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight
Originally by: Avon
OT:
Ollo, would you please put a seperator in your sig - not having one bugs the hell out of me.
I have the same thing with Corp Scammer, I keep reading it and it does my head in.
The posts of the sig?
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Faith Black
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Posted - 2006.03.17 11:43:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Faith Black on 17/03/2006 11:43:50
As long as CCP stay the course I'm mostly happy.
EVE as a PvE game would be totally boring, but developing EVE towards a shooter that served only the trigger-happy would ruin it, too. At the moment EVE rewards cleverness like making the right decisions at the right time, in pvp and in the trade/industrial sector.
If you act stupid / play without using your brain, you are likely to become a victim of some other players. Usually this results in whines on the forum and I hope that these will always be the whines that are ignored by CCP. 
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