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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1065
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 18:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Original Article
GÇ£Scientists working at the world's biggest atom smasher near Geneva have announced they are confident that the new subatomic particle discovered last summer is a version of the long-sought Higgs boson. The particle bears key attributes of the so-called "God particle" that was theorized nearly a half-century ago as fundamental to the creation of the universe.GÇ¥
Why are they doing this?
GÇ£The Higgs is part of many theoretical equations underpinning scientists' understanding of how the world came into being. If the particle didn't exist, then those theories would have needed to be fundamentally overhauled.GÇ¥
This Picture
Is a snapshot of one out of 1 trillion (10^12) proton-proton collisions inside of a particle accelerator. Evidently you have to smash proton clouds together that many times in order to expect to see such a result. Those three little green lines... those are simple electron paths. Not some weird and new exotic particles... just simple run-of-the-mill, everyday electrons.
And yet, they are calling this picture of random subatomic decay of elementary particles... GÇ£godGÇ¥. Or more specifically a god particle that they cannot see, detect or otherwise prove in anyway shape or form. $10 billion dollars, a 17-mile long particle accelerator and a staff of literally thousands of scientists now say that GÇ£they are now confident they have discovered a long-sought subatomic particle known as a Higgs bosonGÇ¥. based on results like this.
Um... seriously? 
But then go on to say that GÇ£The atom-smashing experiments have now confirmed that this particle exists in a form that is similar toGÇöbut perhaps not exactly likeGÇöwhat was proposedGÇ¥
In other words... whatever it is that they think that they have found (that they cannot actually see) is ultimately behaving differently then what they were originally looking for... and what was originally predicted to be there. Would you believe that they actually awarded the Nobel Prize for this half baked evidence and miscarriage of science?
Eternum's Note:
Particle physics deals with the very small and the very random. Three electrons decaying from a proton cloud is NOT in any way, shape or form (by any stretch of imagination or madness) GÇ£proofGÇ¥ or evidence of a god particle. Randomness is just randomness and if you run simulations 1 trillion (10^12) times, and do that over and over and over and over again, you will end up (through sheer randomness) generating any result that you like. Or... any result that you were looking for because you imagined that it should be there. It's like flipping coins and turning up heads 30 times and thinking it has some kind of meaning.
There is absolutely nothing here to even suggest GÇ£confidenceGÇ¥ in the Higgs Boson's existence. And yet a team of thousands of scientists see fit to tell the world of their new found confidence and award the Nobel Prize.
Why Did They Do This?
Because they need to find one and soon. Or decades of atoms mashing would have resulted in no such god particle... no validation of their theory of everything... and ultimately this --->> GÇ£many theoretical equations underpinning scientists' understanding of how the world came into being relies on the God Particle. If the particle didn't exist, then those theories would have needed to be fundamentally overhauled.GÇ¥
And no one likes rewriting text books...
Last But Not Least
And most importantly of all... these scientists seem to lack foresight enough to realize that even IF you discovered such a particle (and I mean for real not in imaginary land) you would still have to figure out what even tinier particle governs the interactions of a Higs Boson. And so on and so forth into tiny infinity.
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Webvan
State War Academy Caldari State
322
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 20:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
And most importantly of all... these scientists seem to lack foresight enough to realize that even IF you discovered such a particle (and I mean for real not in imaginary land) you would still have to figure out what even tinier particle governs the interactions of a Higs Boson. And so on and so forth into tiny infinity.
Into infinity? Well yaah, here is the problem: If you take the hologram of a pea, divide that pea, what do you get? You get two peas! Smaller peas, yes, but both holograms still containing a projection of it's full data source. If you take one of those smaller peas and divide them, you get again two peas, containing the full data but just a smaller pea. So if you divide the result, you get the result, not the source. |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1065
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 20:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ummm... what? 
An RP metaphor based on a holographic pea that you can cut in half and yet not eat or want to use as a decoration? I don't follow this one sorry.
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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
2815
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 21:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
And no one likes rewriting text books...
Oh, no. Utterly wrong.
There is HUGE money in revising text books. Not to mention, if they manage to find the Higgs Bosun, there is an infinity of new articles, monographs, and research grants to be had... full-time employment for whole armies of researchers, writers, and science-illiterate journalists. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |

Webvan
State War Academy Caldari State
322
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 21:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Ummm... what?  An RP metaphor based on a holographic pea that you can cut in half and yet not eat or want to use as a decoration? I don't follow this one sorry. How else is quantum entanglement explained? Smart particles? meh. They are interconnected because they have an external source. They are the same but different, yet still share the same source so that they can communicate as they do. They do that since they are divisions of the same result, not independent smart entities knowing all things within time and space. |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1065
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 22:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:
And no one likes rewriting text books...
Oh, no. Utterly wrong. There is HUGE money in revising text books. Not to mention, if they manage to find the Higgs Bosun, there is an infinity of new articles, monographs, and research grants to be had... full-time employment for whole armies of researchers, writers, and science-illiterate journalists.
I have talked to a few folks who hated it. They of course were not profiting a great deal from their efforts. Regardless what I said was more of an ironic statement meant for people with with PHD's and many thousands invested in their outdated education.
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1065
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 22:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Talks about stringtheory
I do not need to expand my horizons regarding this subject. String theory is opening up a whole new can of stupid. There is no theory more "Safe and unprovable" then string theory. It is one of the most ridiculous academically accepted theories every devised.
P.S. Since I think you are still role playing... as far as science fiction goes, I find the idea of eating holographic peas ridiculous from a sheer storyline perspective alone. Maybe in a CGI anime show, but not your run of the mill science fiction.
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Black Panpher
Ganja Inc
981
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 22:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
If at first you don't succeed try try again. |

Webvan
State War Academy Caldari State
322
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 22:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Webvan wrote:Talks about stringtheory I do not need to expand my horizons regarding this subject. String theory is opening up a whole new can of stupid. There is no theory more "Safe and unprovable" then string theory. It is one of the most ridiculous academically accepted theories every devised. P.S. Since I think you are still role playing... as far as science fiction goes, I find the idea of eating holographic peas ridiculous from a sheer storyline perspective alone. Maybe in a CGI anime show, but not your run of the mill science fiction. hah you sound like one of these scientists after their next approved grant, chasing the unattainable carrot and the money it produces from such grants. Like they did once, 'the world is flat, just saying'. So one vote for god particles, which somehow on their own know all things, if they can even be discovered... someday. But keep the money coming in the meantime hehe.
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Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
59
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 22:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Of course they're desperate. Science has become a joke. Science is no longer about discovery of the unknown and follwing the evidenece wherever it may lead, but about social engineering and then coming up with the evidence, no matter how flimsy or far fetched, to prove it. Science has become a tool for Progressive politicans and a weapon for anti-theologists secularists/militant atheists.
methodolgy has been kicked to the curb Empiracal Evidence has become a luttany of articles repeating the mistakes and stupidity of other and so claiming it as proven fact. Peer Reveiw has become a nothing a Progreesive bully pulpit to shout down and ruin the careers of those who dare see another possiblity Welcome to the new world of science, where we dream up facts first, then come up with theories to prove it. |

Cynter DeVries
Spheroidal Projections
729
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 23:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nassim Haramein, is that you? Cynter's Law of feature suggestion: Thou shalt not suggest NPCs do something players could do instead. |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 23:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cynter DeVries wrote:Nassim Haramein, is that you?
Nope, I am the original threadnaught maker of science theories, questionable philosophies and why you can't ever flip a coin and get heads 10,000 times in a row maker. These forums are much more active then most every other science and philosophy forum out there--and I have met some pretty amazing people here from every walk of life and field of science that you can think of.
@ Snagletooth Johnson... amen brother. 
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 23:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Black Panpher wrote:If at first you don't succeed try try again.
A complete overhaul hmmm...? How much do you think that something like that costs? I can't even guess... and so soon after they pretended to find a god particle. Surely this is not coincidence!
Now imagine a world where the collider finds nothing but randomly dispersed paths of protons, electrons, neutrinos, occasional antimatter and a few abnormally large particles (an illusion of normal particles sticking together) . Do you think it would still get that kind of funding? Nope.
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Cynter DeVries
Spheroidal Projections
729
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 23:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
- Higgs and Englert were awarded the Nobel for the theory, not for the discovery.
- "It remains an open question, however, whether this is the Higgs boson of the Standard Model of particle physics, or possibly the lightest of several bosons predicted in some theories that go beyond the Standard Model. Finding the answer to this question will take time." It is Higgs, but they're still crunching the data to find which theory it fits properly.
- The picture you link is presented to illustrate, not presented as part of the evidence. It says so in the caption.
- The fact that for them it is a desirable result, doesn't diminish the result.
- 6/10 if troll
The Standard Model is one of the most successful scientific theories in human history, both in it's predictive facility and it's repeated testing.
While I'll grant that "Science" has gotten a little big for its britches in recent years, I don't think this is one of those cases.
Cynter's Law of feature suggestion: Thou shalt not suggest NPCs do something players could do instead. |

Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
4879
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 00:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
in the above avatar...higgs-bosoms particles. |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 00:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cynter DeVries wrote:
The picture you link is presented to illustrate, not presented as part of the evidence. It says so in the caption.
"This 2011 image provided by CERN, shows a real CMS proton-proton collision in which four high energy electrons (green lines and red towers) are observed in a 2011 event"
Smoke smaller crack pipes. The effect will be less pronounced if you do. If not on crack, try reading the entire article and educating yourself on the matter at hand before commenting.
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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
2815
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 00:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:silens vesica wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:
And no one likes rewriting text books...
Oh, no. Utterly wrong. There is HUGE money in revising text books. Not to mention, if they manage to find the Higgs Bosun, there is an infinity of new articles, monographs, and research grants to be had... full-time employment for whole armies of researchers, writers, and science-illiterate journalists. I have talked to a few folks who hated it. They of course were not profiting a great deal from their efforts. Regardless what I said was more of an ironic statement meant for people with with PHD's and many thousands invested in their outdated education. That's a pretty far cry from "no one."
Whilst those PhD's are hating on new discoveries/theories/academic ************, they also have a shot at the brass ring in writing papers tearing down 'The New.' It's a continual treadmill, and every dollar invested in finding new things / playing with new intellectual toys / advanced naval-gazing, etc. generates an equal and opposite grant defending the status quo.
It's absolutely nothing new: As it was in the beginning, so is it now and ever shall be; Bloviation without end. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |

Cynter DeVries
Spheroidal Projections
729
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 00:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Cynter DeVries wrote:
The picture you link is presented to illustrate, not presented as part of the evidence. It says so in the caption.
"This 2011 image provided by CERN, shows a real CMS proton-proton collision in which four high energy electrons (green lines and red towers) are observed in a 2011 event"Smoke smaller crack pipes. The effect will be less pronounced if you do. If not on crack, try reading the entire article and educating yourself on the matter at hand before commenting. And the rest of the very same caption:
Quote:The European Organization for Nuclear Research, called CERN, says Thursday March 14, 2013 a look at all the data from 2012 shows that what they found last year was a version of what is popularly referred to as the 'God particle.'
I don't think a 2011 image is 2012 data, do you? Cynter's Law of feature suggestion: Thou shalt not suggest NPCs do something players could do instead. |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 00:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
* Eternum reads what silens vesica is saying, and agrees with him. *But fails to see the point or relevance to this thread.
*Drinks a cup of tea and moves on...
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Cynter DeVries
Spheroidal Projections
729
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 00:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:in the above avatar...higgs-bosoms particles. "Long sought-after..." Cynter's Law of feature suggestion: Thou shalt not suggest NPCs do something players could do instead. |

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
2815
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 00:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:* Eternum reads what silens vesica is saying, and agrees with him. *But fails to see the point or relevance to this thread.
*Drinks a cup of tea and moves on... Addressing a very minor point in the OP, and commentary on same. Really, it's mostly a drive-by.  Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 00:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cynter DeVries wrote:The European Organization for Nuclear Research, called CERN, says Thursday March 14, 2013 a look at all the data from 2012 shows that what they found last year was a version of what is popularly referred to as the 'God particle.'
I don't think a 2011 image is 2012 data, do you?
"This 2011 image provided by CERN, shows a real CMS proton-proton collision in which four high energy electrons (green lines and red towers) are observed in a 2011 event. The event shows characteristics expected from the decay of a Higgs boson but is also consistent with background Standard Model physics processes."
This is a representation of the kind of data they are dealing with. It is in fact an actual picture and there is no caption saying that is an illustration.
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Cynter DeVries
Spheroidal Projections
729
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 01:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Cynter DeVries wrote:The European Organization for Nuclear Research, called CERN, says Thursday March 14, 2013 a look at all the data from 2012 shows that what they found last year was a version of what is popularly referred to as the 'God particle.'
I don't think a 2011 image is 2012 data, do you? "This 2011 image provided by CERN, shows a real CMS proton-proton collision in which four high energy electrons (green lines and red towers) are observed in a 2011 event. The event shows characteristics expected from the decay of a Higgs boson but is also consistent with background Standard Model physics processes."This is a representation of the kind of data they are dealing with. It is in fact an actual picture and there is no caption saying that is an illustration. Let me be more clear then. The image from 2011 shows the kinds of collisions they're dealing with, true. It is not an imaging of the 2012 data, which is what the announcement is about. Therefore, the article is presenting the image not as part of the data set, but instead to illustrate proton collision visualizations in general.
Your criticism was that this picture didn't show a Higgs boson, and therefore their conclusions were bunk. My point was that this was not an image from the 2012 data from which they were drawing their conclusions, therefor that particular part of your criticism didn't stand up.
I agree with your larger point, but disagree that this finding, announcement, and award is an example of your larger point. Cynter's Law of feature suggestion: Thou shalt not suggest NPCs do something players could do instead. |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 01:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
I think what you are looking for is this ( I Think)
And as far as I can tell it is made out of exactly the same stuff. As far as I can tell (and I may be wrong here) they are looking at particle spin in order to determine if a particle with no spin is creating a path or colliding with other particles. Neither of which means anything considering the velocities involved and the massive amount of samples taken.
Maybe I am wrong about the identification process, I don't know. But this is what I gather from what I have read.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9738
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 02:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
So what qualifications has the OP got and what papers have you written? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Malaclypse Muscaria
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 03:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:And yet, they are calling this picture of random subatomic decay of elementary particles... GÇ£godGÇ¥.
ITT: theists butthurt about science brandishing agitated nonsense. News at 11.
Start by learning about the real reason why the Higgs Boson was dubbed "the god particle", no need to have a degree on particle physics to understand that particular issue.
The hubris of ignorance... |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 12:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Malaclypse Muscaria wrote:Eternum Praetorian wrote:And yet, they are calling this picture of random subatomic decay of elementary particles... GÇ£godGÇ¥. ITT: theists butthurt about science brandishing agitated nonsense. News at 11. Start by learning about the real reason why the Higgs Boson was dubbed "the god particle", no need to have a degree on particle physics to understand that particular issue. The hubris of ignorance...
I am not a theist, and please, by all means... enlighten us with the illumination of your superior understanding on the subject. That is in large part why I make threads like this. God in no way (at least for me) comes into the equation when discussing particle physics, unlike these scientists who are ever so coyly dubbing something "god" or "god like" right under our noses.
Do tell... I am listening 
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Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 12:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:So what qualifications has the OP got and what papers have you written?
My most important qualification comes from elementary school where they told me the basics of the scientific method. Since then I have seen doctors of every field take a gigantic steaming crap on it in order to entice grants, enhance their own personal fame and/or agendas and propagate social stereotypes.
The most important paper that I have written was in bad cursive, in about the sixth grade. Where I clearly outlined that 1. you must first observe a phenomena and then 2. use the scientific method (and mathematics) to interpret that phenomena and 3. predict further dynamic processes as a last and final step.
As oppose to... you know... standing in front of a marker board and imagining "string theory" (a thing that you can never possibly observe in real life) and then inventing math that requires so many imaginary dimensions just to get my numbers to work (because they do not actually work) just so I can play some violins on the discovery channel and call myself a genius. Similarly, you should not smash a seemingly infinite amount of protons together in order to observe random particle decay at the speed of light, see a random event every 1 trillion (10^12) times that does not quite look like what you were expecting and tell the world that you have found a god particle that fixes all of the holes in your "theory of everything".
So as you can see... I am extremely well vised on the subject.
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Onyx Nyx
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
599
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 12:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
So as you can see... I am extremely well vised on the subject.
The article was published back in march last year and you air thoughts on it now, on a forum about internet spaceships. To me, that is just hilarious.
If you are "extremely well vised on the subject", then I have to ask you to prove that by supplying your credentials from a accredited university and a few of your published papers on the subject of particle physics because, well, your track history of making arguments and statements like this are on the level of "scientific" level of Deepak Chopra.
Also, I am posting in a Eternum Praetorian thread. Hi mom! Couldn't have done it without you. <3 I kill kittens, and puppies and bunnies. I maim toddlers and teens and then more. |

Eternum Praetorian
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.01.06 12:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
I can give you the name of the elementary school where I wrote my first papers on proper scientific practices if you like? Everything else after that is just bells and whistles.
This god particle thing has been on my mind for a while, I just have not been bothering to post on my favorite Internet spaceships forum lately. Yesterday I just figured... why the hell not!
Also... Triumvirate (dot). What happened to Triumvirate 1.0? Oh... right... 
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