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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 02:48:00 -
[1]
Cannot be done as the test server is being used to test the Chinese Cluster setup.
So don't go too crazy Tux, until we can test it.
Also, Give the typhoon a 5th turret and more grid, and the Domi more grid as well.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.18 02:49:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Gierling
and the Domi more grid as well.
Personally, I would not like to see the damage output of a dominix with a full rack of large blasters and 5 ogres out there.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 03:23:00 -
[3]
ITs quite absurd that you need two RCU II's and a third grid mod AND perfect fitting skills to fit a full rack of its largest guns when completely fitted for offence.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.18 03:34:00 -
[4]
Edited by: j0sephine on 18/03/2006 03:36:39
"ITs quite absurd that you need two RCU II's and a third grid mod AND perfect fitting skills to fit a full rack of its largest guns when completely fitted for offence.
If the Domi could fit a rack of its best guns with good skills and one RCU, it wouldn't terribly unbalance the ship at all, we might actually see the ship USING guns and not NOS setups"
Dominix with single RCU II, 6x neutron blaster cannon II's: 177.3 grid, 410 cpu left. 5 mids and 6 low slots free.
In comparison Raven trying to fit "full rack of largest weapons" i.e. 6x siege launcher II, 2x 425 mm rail II actually *needs* 2x RCU to fit such weapon set. After which she winds up with 1054 grid and 331 cpu.
Where exactly is the problem with the Domi, here? o.O;
(Domi with 2x RCU II and the above weapon config: 2117 grid, 394 cpu. still 5 low slots left in addition to 5 mids)
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Hanns
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Posted - 2006.03.18 03:44:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Gierling
and the Domi more grid as well.
Like the domi isnt overpowered enough 
Originally by: Tuxford
a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
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xeom
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Posted - 2006.03.18 04:02:00 -
[6]
Yes please buff the domi its terribly weak.Also please consider nerfing the tempest?
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O Snapz! |
Fuujin
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Posted - 2006.03.18 04:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: xeom
Yes please buff the domi its terribly weak.Also please consider nerfing the tempest?
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The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
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Nebuli
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Posted - 2006.03.18 04:57:00 -
[8]
The Domi already outperforms Mega at close range as it is, no boost is required at all.
CEO - Art of War |
Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 05:13:00 -
[9]
Ok now park your Domi at 200k away from 1400 tempests and tach-apocs...
Poor little Domi.
Best weapons are 425 II's, not Nuetrons, Short range guns are almost totally irreleveant in Eve Politics.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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bundy bear
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Posted - 2006.03.18 05:20:00 -
[10]
Tachyon geddon > 425mm railthron
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.18 05:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gierling
Edited by: Gierling on 18/03/2006 05:15:51
Ok now park your Domi at 200k away from 1400 tempests and tach-apocs...
Poor little Domi.
Best weapons are 425 II's, not Nuetrons, Short range guns are almost totally irrelevent in Eve Politics. Every Battlship First and foremost needs to have a place in the line of battle whilst engaging enemy Battleships, Phoon and the Domi do not, relegating them to the role of raiders... barely pocket Battleships they are.
If you are trying to snipe with a ship that's bad at sniping, you need to rethink your strategy, not get your ship boosted.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.18 05:36:00 -
[12]
Edited by: j0sephine on 18/03/2006 05:45:08
"Ok now park your Domi at 200k away from 1400 tempests and tach-apocs...
Poor little Domi."
... By the same logic park the 1400 tempest and tach-apoc 20 km from the Domi..? I have no idea what the point of that argument is, to be honest. ^^;
"Best weapons are 425 II's, not Nuetrons, Short range guns are almost totally irrelevent in Eve Politics. Every Battlship First and foremost needs to have a place in the line of battle whilst engaging enemy Battleships, Phoon and the Domi do not, relegating them to the role of raiders... barely pocket Battleships they are."
6x 425 railgun II
100 mn afterburner II, 2x sensor booster II, 2x tracking comp II
3x mag field stabilizer II, 2x RCU II, 1x tracking enhancer II, whatever (eccm, damage control, cap relay, stuff. you have 128 cpu and 7 grid left to play with)
as cookie-cutter fleet battleship as you can get them, really. With ~100 km base optimal on the guns, i.e. reaches easily the 200 km range with tech.2 ammo. It will dish out ~380 dps of instant damage (for comparison, 6x cruise Raven in matching configuration does 373 dps) ... and if the fight happens to be at range close enough, there's full load of sentry drones sitting in the bay.
What does it need more powergrid for, really..? o.O;
edit: oh and the whole difference between firepower of this ship and the Megathron will be 1 extra gun. meaning difference of ~16% (442 dps vs 380)
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Farjung
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Posted - 2006.03.18 05:53:00 -
[13]
A dominix with tech II berzerkers + meta tech I blasters took my blasterthron to 3% armor before popping a couple of days ago. Admittedly he didn't have a propulsion module, and had to rely on my coming in to blaster range. He'd have more than likely won if he'd had tech II blasters, a lar II + 1600mm plate instead of a lar II + medium armor rep II (grid permitting), and most certainly if he'd had a couple of multispecs instead of cap recharger + sensor booster. But anyway, there are ships that are in much more dire need of assistance than the dominix.
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Video: Wave of Mutilation |
Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:32:00 -
[14]
All that fits with 2 rcu II's so long as you have Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5, which is an unreasonable expectation for your average player. Lets bump it down and say average skills trying to fit 425 I's, its still not pretty. And I don't need to mention that those RCU's are dead weight... The Mega gets 2 extra lowslots (3 for most people) to help its case.
Yes at 20km the Dominix is a very respectable ship, however 20km is frigate range. It quite simply is not the range where Battleships NEED to be relevant. I Understand that the Domi will never put out the Damage of its older sibling(s*) however if it could fit a rack of its best guns without a hefty slot compromise AND Perfect skills it would have a place as a Battleship that does respectable damage and can run anti-support at the same time with modest effectiveness.
Moving on, the Typhoon is just a total abortion at the moment. 20k is Frigate range, 60k is Cruiser range... at very best you are an oversized cruiser (from a tactical standpoint, from an operational standpoint you are a brick slowing down the rest of the gang, and from the strategic standpoint your throwing 100 million isk at a 5 million isk problem and doing it poorly on top of that).
Sorry Battleships play at 120k and upwards, if you can't do a good portion of your DPS at that distance on time to a primary or a secondary. You have no right to call yourself a battleship. You might have some relevency fitted with precision cruises and 1400's, tossing the cruises at thier support, however you run into the same problem the Dominix has that you are a battleship in a frig fight and your big clumsy weapons (Cruises with no Velocity bonus, Drones) just aren't even remotely scary 50k out and closing.
I'm not saying make it so that the Domi can fit 425II's without grid mods, I'm saying that the bar is just a little TOO high. That 2 slots AND perfect skills is too much to ask. 1 slot with perfect skills would be nice, however 2 slots with good skills is more then fair.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:35:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Gierling
All that fits with 2 rcu II's so long as you have Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5, which is an unreasonable expectation for your average player.
What? You're not expected to fit a full rack of 425mms on a drone ship. Simple as that, it's designed for drone use, which is typically close range. The megathron is the better ship for rails.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Farjung
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Gierling
I'm not saying make it so that the Domi can fit 425II's without grid mods, I'm saying that the bar is just a little TOO high. That 2 slots AND perfect skills is too much to ask. 1 slot with perfect skills would be nice, however 2 slots with good skills is more then fair.
Well, if you drop the afterburner then it fits with advanced weapon upgrades 4 and 2 rcu II. With tech I rails it fits with advanced weapon upgrades 1 (again with no afterburner), which I think is more than reasonable to expect from a battleship pilot really, though I suppose energy grid upgrades 5 is a bit of a steep one. Give it more grid and you'll allow it to fit even more worrying close range setups than it can right now.
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Video: Wave of Mutilation |
Xanta
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:47:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Xanta on 18/03/2006 06:47:49
Originally by: Farjung
Originally by: Gierling
I'm not saying make it so that the Domi can fit 425II's without grid mods, I'm saying that the bar is just a little TOO high. That 2 slots AND perfect skills is too much to ask. 1 slot with perfect skills would be nice, however 2 slots with good skills is more then fair.
Well, if you drop the afterburner then it fits with advanced weapon upgrades 4 and 2 rcu II. With tech I rails it fits with advanced weapon upgrades 1 (again with no afterburner), which I think is more than reasonable to expect from a battleship pilot really, though I suppose energy grid upgrades 5 is a bit of a steep one. Give it more grid and you'll allow it to fit even more worrying close range setups than it can right now.
energy grid upgrades is only a rank 2 skill ;o
tbh the lack of the domis lack of ability at range makes up for how awesome it is close up, hopefully the phoon will be the same.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:52:00 -
[18]
If its a droneship then give us drones that are effective at 100k out of the box, if not downsize it to a cruiser where Drones are relevent weapons and give Gallente Battleship pilots the second Battleship you admit they lack.
A more extreme example would be a battleship with huge damage and rate of fire bonuses to smartbombs, your response would be "Well duh.. only fight at 5k then its a great ship".
Its the equivelant of putting a thousand guys with a a sackful of Grenades on top of a barge and calling it a battleship, and then when people point out that it can't possibly leverage that firepower going "Well DUH its a grenade battleship, you have to sail within 50 feet of the enemy". Sorry not a valid argument, the firepower might be impressive but it is not relevant at all when compared to its contemporaries in how it performs its role.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Farjung
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:56:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Farjung on 18/03/2006 06:58:44
Problem is you're defining its role somewhat arbitrarily. Battleship combat isn't all about long range fleet fights, however much you try to say it is.
Why should a dominix be equally good as a megathron at long range fleet battles when it's already a lot more versatile and more cost-effective at short range?
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Video: Wave of Mutilation |
Heikki
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Gierling
Sorry Battleships play at 120k and upwards
That's your experience/idea of Eve combat; don't force it on others or try to have everything balanced over it.
Dominix and Megathron use pretty much same skill set; hence if one of them can do some role well, there is no need balance the other for that role. The pilot can choose which fitting/ship to use based on the situation.
-Lasse
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:07:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Tiuwaz on 18/03/2006 07:07:12
Originally by: Gierling
Edited by: Gierling on 18/03/2006 06:59:37
If its a droneship then give us drones that are effective at 100k out of the box, if not downsize it to a cruiser where Drones are relevent weapons and give Gallente Battleship pilots the second Battleship you admit they lack.
A more extreme example would be a battleship with huge damage and rate of fire bonuses to smartbombs, your response would be "Well duh.. only fight at 5k then its a great ship".
Its the equivelant of putting a thousand guys with a a sackful of Grenades on top of a barge and calling it a battleship, and then when people point out that it can't possibly leverage that firepower going "Well DUH its a grenade battleship, you have to sail within 50 feet of the enemy". Sorry not a valid argument, the firepower might be impressive but it is not relevant at all when compared to its contemporaries in how it performs its role.
Edited to Add: Drones are not battleship weapons, flat out that is the case. Its the equivelent to making the Tempest have bonuses to medium projectiles. The only cases where non Battleship weapons work on Battleships are when the platforms have substantial bonuses to enable you to use thier weapons at battleship distances (Raven and Scorp). You wann a keep the grid as it is and switch out the 5% damage for 20% drone control range/drone Velocity then you have an argument.
translation:
domi sux, cause drones suck in BS vs BS combat, domi sux cause it cant snipe
make drones snipe from 100km+ or turn the domi into a sniper
give the domi some boosts it sux
dunno what game you play, but in Eve a domi is one of the deadliest BS to face closerange and by that i mean facing it with a frig/cruiser or BS
Originally by: Oveur
****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:17:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Gierling on 18/03/2006 07:21:30
Its role is defined by its pronounced size and lack of mobility.
Short range combat in Battleships simply isn't a factor in hostilities between 2 groups in EVE, Battlships are instruments of diplomacy. If a Battleship can not stand up to an oppossing force of battleships side by side with its own battleships, it is not a Battleship period. It is not acceptable that a battleship be bad at doing the main thing you need a battleship to do.
A ship needs to be able to do at least a passable job in fleet combat to be considered a Battleship. Domi and the Phoon just dont. If theyre not intended for fleet work, fine, downsize em to battlecruisers (or Pocket Battleships) and give us something to work with.
Listen Farjung I really do respect your opinion, so I don't want to be misunderstood I DONT want the Domi to become a pwnmobile. I just think that it is not feasible to fit one out to go work in a fleet as it is, a little breathing room is all I think the Domi needs. Not much mind you, but enough that your average pilot can get into one and do something useful and your experienced pilot can hop into one for a change of pace AND STILL BE AS USEFULL IN A SIGHTLY DIFFERENT WAY.
I'm not even convinced that the 5 railgun 1 augment hybrid setup is necessarily bad, just that it might be me trying to hard to believe that there are two Gallente Battleships.
The typhoon has it worse then the Domi does though, by far. 5 turrets with the existing bonuses gives the minmater a decidedly different option then the tempest that doesn't really do as much pure damage, but hits further albeit requiring more micromanagement.
Edit: Turn your perspective around a little, the Mega is a very capable long range ship, and a very capable short range ship... it fights a little differently but it still holds its own. One is hard pressed to find battleships that can't be made to fight well at short range, however there are two glaring examples of ships that really require a LOT of acrobatics to make medoicre at long range.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:22:00 -
[23]
not every Battleship is meant for fleetbattles >_>
every race should have 1 fleetbattle-able BS which is the case currently
(caldari loose a bit out here as the scorp is support and not dmg but thats gonna get fixed in kali with tier 3 BS's)
it would be utterly boring if all 8 BS's in eve were designed for 100km+ fleetbattles
Originally by: Oveur
****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:35:00 -
[24]
Well as much as you guys say that the domi is a good ship and its fine. It is good. But whens the last time you saw a domi in fleet combat en mass??? Every other Bship has a role in a fleet fight but the domi and the typhoon. Its very simply one of the most underloved fleet ship ever. An ishtar does the same damage as a domi at the same ranges. Actually because it gets a drone range bonus its even better than the domi... Thats a close range ship. I will tell you that you dont see domis flying in the MC fleet because if your going for range you fly a ship that can use weapons at range. A domi is not one of those ships... Even with the typhoons opitmal range bonus its better than the domi.
If your going to roam around then a domi is mean ship but when it comes to ranged combat every other battleship in the game has the ability to damage at far range. Farjung you know that the domi sucks at ranges past 80km. Im not saying it should be easy to fit but until it gets a little more grid its a one trick ship. Geddons and apocs can use pulse and get in close, the mega can use blasters and rails and do both, the scorp can do both, with its missiles, the raven is the same as the scorp with cruise and torps, even the typhoon and tempest both can go autocannons and arties. These ships can switch out and at least have ranges beyond 100km the domis firepower is limited to under 100km.
I guess well jsut have to wait for the 8 turret new gally bship... 8 425 IIs with spike and javelin... 
Originally by: MAXSuicide
only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:37:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Agent Kenshin on 18/03/2006 07:42:23
Originally by: Tiuwaz
not every Battleship is meant for fleetbattles >_>
every race should have 1 fleetbattle-able BS which is the case currently
(caldari loose a bit out here as the scorp is support and not dmg but thats gonna get fixed in kali with tier 3 BS's)
it would be utterly boring if all 8 BS's in eve were designed for 100km+ fleetbattles
They may not all be designed for it but all but the domi can do it pretty well with the new t2 ammos... without stretching the fitting requirements.
Originally by: MAXSuicide
only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:37:00 -
[26]
The thing is that all the long range battleships still make pretty decent short range battleships, the short range battleships can't be made to halfway decent long range battleships.
I'm not gunning for "Awesome long range battleship" I'm aiming for "decent long range battleship". I do not think that you can fairly say that about the Domi or the Typhoon.
The real kick in the gooch here is that short range combat in eve really isn't how most wars are decided, and it is precisely because of what I stated earlier. Long range ships still fight effectively at short range, short range ships by and large cannot be made to fight effectively at long range.
Thats why you don't see 100 ship fleets with AC's, pulses and blasters, You can still load antimatter and fight acceptably with rails. Your alternative if you roll with short range weapons is not to fight at all.
I don't know maybe I'm taking too big-picture a view here by looking at the ships as instruments of policy, and I'll apologize if I seem acerbic or offputting. Its just that the way I see it it is increasingly harder to justify the use of a dominix (or phoon) in a situation where a Thron or Tempest is usually used, and its not terribly much the case the other way around. This gets even worse when coupled with the fact (not opinion, fact) that tactical concerns dictate the scenario where the Domi and Phoon just cannot compete is the most likely one in any fight where you aim to actually impact the gameworld.
Frankly I wouldn't be happy in a pwnmobile if you gave me one, I want options, I want the ability to approach a problem from different directions. even if that problem is 120k away surrounded by a hundred other problems.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:38:00 -
[27]
i agree that domi and phoon suck longrange, but we dont need every BS to be good at longrange
well thats just my opinion
Originally by: Oveur
****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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SpaceDrake Storyteller
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:39:00 -
[28]
The Domi is, among other things, a cost-effective camp-breaker and an *excellent* multi-role support vessel.
It needs more grid like the Apoc needs more cap.
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What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward?
Player of the character "Andre Ricard". |
Agent Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:48:00 -
[29]
Well then how about we turn some of that useless CPU into PG?
Originally by: MAXSuicide
only carebears call pvpers 'greifers'
ehehehh....
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Farjung
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:49:00 -
[30]
Ok, we're going to have to agree to disagree here I think as I don't have any other arguments to make. I'm certain that any grid upgrade you give to a dominix (which is already pretty much king of small gang/solo, with possible exception of raven) will make it even more unbalanced in that role. As much as I love my blasterthron, I fly it purely for aesthetic reasons rather than performance. A dominix fulfils the same role I use a blasterthron for, more effectively and for a fraction of the cost.
j0's already provided a viable 425mm rail II fitting, which if you're hell bent on shoehorning the dominix into a long range role does very comparable damage to a railthron, but naturally the railthron's better suited to this role. If you don't have awu 5 then you can drop the afterburner the fitting works.
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Video: Wave of Mutilation |
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