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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 02:48:00 -
[1]
Cannot be done as the test server is being used to test the Chinese Cluster setup.
So don't go too crazy Tux, until we can test it.
Also, Give the typhoon a 5th turret and more grid, and the Domi more grid as well.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 03:23:00 -
[2]
ITs quite absurd that you need two RCU II's and a third grid mod AND perfect fitting skills to fit a full rack of its largest guns when completely fitted for offence.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 05:13:00 -
[3]
Ok now park your Domi at 200k away from 1400 tempests and tach-apocs...
Poor little Domi.
Best weapons are 425 II's, not Nuetrons, Short range guns are almost totally irreleveant in Eve Politics.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:32:00 -
[4]
All that fits with 2 rcu II's so long as you have Advanced Weapon Upgrades to 5, which is an unreasonable expectation for your average player. Lets bump it down and say average skills trying to fit 425 I's, its still not pretty. And I don't need to mention that those RCU's are dead weight... The Mega gets 2 extra lowslots (3 for most people) to help its case.
Yes at 20km the Dominix is a very respectable ship, however 20km is frigate range. It quite simply is not the range where Battleships NEED to be relevant. I Understand that the Domi will never put out the Damage of its older sibling(s*) however if it could fit a rack of its best guns without a hefty slot compromise AND Perfect skills it would have a place as a Battleship that does respectable damage and can run anti-support at the same time with modest effectiveness.
Moving on, the Typhoon is just a total abortion at the moment. 20k is Frigate range, 60k is Cruiser range... at very best you are an oversized cruiser (from a tactical standpoint, from an operational standpoint you are a brick slowing down the rest of the gang, and from the strategic standpoint your throwing 100 million isk at a 5 million isk problem and doing it poorly on top of that).
Sorry Battleships play at 120k and upwards, if you can't do a good portion of your DPS at that distance on time to a primary or a secondary. You have no right to call yourself a battleship. You might have some relevency fitted with precision cruises and 1400's, tossing the cruises at thier support, however you run into the same problem the Dominix has that you are a battleship in a frig fight and your big clumsy weapons (Cruises with no Velocity bonus, Drones) just aren't even remotely scary 50k out and closing.
I'm not saying make it so that the Domi can fit 425II's without grid mods, I'm saying that the bar is just a little TOO high. That 2 slots AND perfect skills is too much to ask. 1 slot with perfect skills would be nice, however 2 slots with good skills is more then fair.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:52:00 -
[5]
If its a droneship then give us drones that are effective at 100k out of the box, if not downsize it to a cruiser where Drones are relevent weapons and give Gallente Battleship pilots the second Battleship you admit they lack.
A more extreme example would be a battleship with huge damage and rate of fire bonuses to smartbombs, your response would be "Well duh.. only fight at 5k then its a great ship".
Its the equivelant of putting a thousand guys with a a sackful of Grenades on top of a barge and calling it a battleship, and then when people point out that it can't possibly leverage that firepower going "Well DUH its a grenade battleship, you have to sail within 50 feet of the enemy". Sorry not a valid argument, the firepower might be impressive but it is not relevant at all when compared to its contemporaries in how it performs its role.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:17:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Gierling on 18/03/2006 07:21:30
Its role is defined by its pronounced size and lack of mobility.
Short range combat in Battleships simply isn't a factor in hostilities between 2 groups in EVE, Battlships are instruments of diplomacy. If a Battleship can not stand up to an oppossing force of battleships side by side with its own battleships, it is not a Battleship period. It is not acceptable that a battleship be bad at doing the main thing you need a battleship to do.
A ship needs to be able to do at least a passable job in fleet combat to be considered a Battleship. Domi and the Phoon just dont. If theyre not intended for fleet work, fine, downsize em to battlecruisers (or Pocket Battleships) and give us something to work with.
Listen Farjung I really do respect your opinion, so I don't want to be misunderstood I DONT want the Domi to become a pwnmobile. I just think that it is not feasible to fit one out to go work in a fleet as it is, a little breathing room is all I think the Domi needs. Not much mind you, but enough that your average pilot can get into one and do something useful and your experienced pilot can hop into one for a change of pace AND STILL BE AS USEFULL IN A SIGHTLY DIFFERENT WAY.
I'm not even convinced that the 5 railgun 1 augment hybrid setup is necessarily bad, just that it might be me trying to hard to believe that there are two Gallente Battleships.
The typhoon has it worse then the Domi does though, by far. 5 turrets with the existing bonuses gives the minmater a decidedly different option then the tempest that doesn't really do as much pure damage, but hits further albeit requiring more micromanagement.
Edit: Turn your perspective around a little, the Mega is a very capable long range ship, and a very capable short range ship... it fights a little differently but it still holds its own. One is hard pressed to find battleships that can't be made to fight well at short range, however there are two glaring examples of ships that really require a LOT of acrobatics to make medoicre at long range.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:37:00 -
[7]
The thing is that all the long range battleships still make pretty decent short range battleships, the short range battleships can't be made to halfway decent long range battleships.
I'm not gunning for "Awesome long range battleship" I'm aiming for "decent long range battleship". I do not think that you can fairly say that about the Domi or the Typhoon.
The real kick in the gooch here is that short range combat in eve really isn't how most wars are decided, and it is precisely because of what I stated earlier. Long range ships still fight effectively at short range, short range ships by and large cannot be made to fight effectively at long range.
Thats why you don't see 100 ship fleets with AC's, pulses and blasters, You can still load antimatter and fight acceptably with rails. Your alternative if you roll with short range weapons is not to fight at all.
I don't know maybe I'm taking too big-picture a view here by looking at the ships as instruments of policy, and I'll apologize if I seem acerbic or offputting. Its just that the way I see it it is increasingly harder to justify the use of a dominix (or phoon) in a situation where a Thron or Tempest is usually used, and its not terribly much the case the other way around. This gets even worse when coupled with the fact (not opinion, fact) that tactical concerns dictate the scenario where the Domi and Phoon just cannot compete is the most likely one in any fight where you aim to actually impact the gameworld.
Frankly I wouldn't be happy in a pwnmobile if you gave me one, I want options, I want the ability to approach a problem from different directions. even if that problem is 120k away surrounded by a hundred other problems.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:59:00 -
[8]
Can we at least agree that the Dominix isn't as capable a longrange ship as the Mega is a short range ship.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 08:09:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Gierling on 18/03/2006 08:13:58
Thats basically my take on the phoon too Malken.
As far as the Domi, I actually think theres more arguing to be had here.
Farjung, your a numbers guy. So lets approach this from a numbers perspective. Look at the total DPS put out from a Mega and a Domi at 20 kilometers with equivelant setups, and then look at the DPS they both put out at 120k with equivalent setups. For comparisons sake throw in a Geddon as it can work well at both ranges and is a tier one ship like a Domi.
I'm willing to bet that the Domi's extra 2.5 drones don't offset the extra gun and launcher as much as one would like in short range, and even if the Domi does edge out it won't be enough to really justify the rather large gulf at long range.
Running the numbers in my head (And granted I'm way to tired for an accurrate count so bear with me if this sounds crazy) I'd say the Domi does twice as much less at 120k then its advantage at 20k against the mega. Geddons a wildcard. And if your gonna give the Domi Ogre II's, give the Mega them as well... pure pound for pound comparison.
And to follow, if the Domi is 5% better at short range and 15% worse at long range its fairly balanced if the long range boost gives it a litle short range as well... as that would make it 10% better then the mega at short range and ten percent worse at long range. We've already established that its advantage is lopsided (Small short range bonus, substantial longrange penalty) so even if it gets a little better it'll even out.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 08:16:00 -
[10]
Ok I really should be asleep...
But I'd gladly trade 55 CPU (about 10%) from my Domi for 1550 grid (about 10%) from my Mega.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 12:55:00 -
[11]
I've tried the Sentry Domi setup and it is interesting to say the least, but the problem is that your devoting all your highs and all your mids for it. I'll admit most of the Domi's problems get better IF Sentry drones were fixed so that they only needed to be in your drone control range and didn't need the target to be as well, then you can do a hybrid setup and not lose so much ground.
I still don't think Far has demonstrated that the Domi harbors anything near the mega's advantage at short range. Indeed taking the substantially poorer tracking into account with the slower speed I doubt it has anywhere near that sort of leverage. All its really got is a modest amount of extra drone damage and 1 mid at the expense of two highs. It doesn't do EW substantially better then a Mega, and even if kitted for a nos setup the MEga is just much more dangerous with all the extra slots up top to play with.
And who said anything about blob warfare, I've been running in fast moving Gangs for most of my PVP carreer. With the occassional fleetwork thrown in as well. Trust me I'm not trying to turn the domi into a pwnmobile, I do however bellieve that she needs a little love.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.18 18:52:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Gierling on 18/03/2006 18:53:13
Its multifaceted, the Domi does acceptably at short range, and really doesnt compete at long range without two rcu II's.
The Mega performs well at long range, and well at short range. The real problem is that the Mega doesn't really suffer to fight short range, the Domi does suffer to fight long range.
It's a matter of "Why do I need to make a tradeoff when no one else is", the Mega, Pest, Geddon Apoc, Scorp, Raven* etc don't really trade the ability to fight at one range for the other. However we are suppossed to believe that the Domi needs to make a special tradeoff that no one else does?
Here let me make a chart for you to understand how I am seeing it:
----------Short Range -- Long Range
Domi: fine-------------Bad
Mega: fine-------------fine
Apoc: fine-------------fine
Raven: fine-------------fine
Scorp: fine-------------fine
Pest: fine-------------fine
Phoon: fine-------------Bad
Geddon: fine-------------fine
Apoc: fine-------------fine
Two things are not like the others.
* The raven does need a boost but long range missilles in general are the prob. Either make all Turrets fire on the end of the cycle and keep missilles firing at the beginning of the cycle (Which should smooth out damage nicely), or Double the top speed of missilles but half the starting speed and make them accellerate so covering 40k takes about the same amount of time now, but covering 40-150+ K is inconsequential timewise.
Sorry for the typos, got to go to a St. Patricks Day party with a bunch of friends I havent seen for a while and rushing to pack and type at the same time. I'll post more arguments later.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.20 02:53:00 -
[13]
Other ships in the game dont sacrifice so much to gain so little. The Domi doesn't really do its job better at close range then the mega, at least nowhere near the same margin in which its outclassed at range. Same for the Phoon.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:38:00 -
[14]
Debateable
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.21 05:50:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Gierling on 21/03/2006 05:50:50
Clarification, my argument is that the Raven is as good at long range as it is at short range (from a purely DPS standpoint, Missilles still go too slow and I'll be the first to admit that).
And Farjung has already shown that the Mega does about 17% more damage at long range. It is doubtful that the Domi has a 17% advantage at short range.
My rough calculations (Assuming absolutely perfect skills) give a ceiling of around 980 DPS for a Domi with 5 Ogre II's and 6 nuetron blaster II's firing void, The Mega does about 960 DPS with 5 Ogre II's, 7 Nuetron II's with void, and one good named siege launcher.
I'm not 100% on those numbers, however I used the same approach so the relation is still valid.
From a pure DPS standpoint Mega has 17% advantage at long range, adn the Domi trades off for a whopping 2% advantage at short range.
However that is not considering funny things like drone flight time (in the megas favor), Fitting (in the Megas Favor), Missille skills (somewhat in the Megas favor).
The Domi makes a very poor trade off, that is the crux of my argument (the Domi and the phoon, phoon needs love too). This tradeoff is esxacerbated by the fact that Battleship combat is inherently biased towards the ranges where the Domi and the phoon sacrificed the most.
For your information I'm a Gallente spec'd pilot as well with some PVP experience and experience in both ships. I actually have more kills in the domi by a small margin, however my ponderings on the matter have left me convinced that I would have done just as well in every situation where I was flying the Domi if I were flying the Mega(which believe it or not I actually prefer), however nearly all the times I was flying a Mega it would have been a great detriment had I been flying a Domi instead... and that makes me sad.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.21 18:37:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Gierling on 21/03/2006 18:46:56
Edited by: Gierling on 21/03/2006 18:39:23
No, more grid would mean the ability ot actually use your second bonus.
The Megathron has more grid and we do not see it often setup as vamp setups.
My issue here is the fact that you guys are going "Its a drone ship, its uber at short range, so that balances out its anemic long range ability" Without really realizing that its really NOT that uber at short range... its not significantly more u ber then the Mega. Actually by my math its only about 2% better, which is marginal if anything and its hard to call that "better" at all. And the trade off is a rather sizeably penalty at the ranges that battleships need to operate at.
If you want to keep its flavour as a drone ship, you could fix sentry drones (They are using the little shortcut the devs made for normal drones to ensure they stick mostly in control range). And that would take the edge off, you'd still have less range then the mega but at least your in the territory where you get to play.
Edited to add, Named drone mods and tech II drone mods would go a long way towards being helpful too. Just have Gallente Agents give them as mission rewards.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 06:02:00 -
[17]
 Originally by: Ab Initio
1. Its ability to tank.
2. A primary weapons system not reliant on any ship slots.
3. The fact that we are spoiled with setup options because of slot lay out.
1: The Domi has the same low slot layout, less cap, less cap recharge and poorer fitting.
2: The Mega has access to the same weapons, and only does about 160 less DPS with them, whilst being able to fit the same exact setup with two extra nuetron blasters, doing about 85 DPS each, for a negligable difference.
3: One more medslot, two less highs and much less fitting to go with.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 06:40:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Gierling on 22/03/2006 06:40:54
It can kill well, just not as well as other ships.
Frankly it is a fun and unique ship with little ability to really leverage that uniqueness.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 13:34:00 -
[19]
IMHO if we're going to go the bonus change route (which is actually one way to go).
I'd say 10% (or more it would be a new bonus subject to balancing) drone control radius per level would be best.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 18:23:00 -
[20]
Drones don't typically work to well in fleet battles due to thier travel time, However I supposse you could probably Get berserkers going about as fast as cruisemissilles form a raven now, that is an interesting Idea but I'm not sure how feasible it is. Especially considering how drone nav mod's tend to screw up the drones tracking badly.
I would be perfectly comfortable with using Sentry drones if they could fire outside of your control range like they were intended to. Its just a bit of a programming shortcut to make sure that your drones that can move stay inside of your drone control range. The devs made it so that drones can't be made to attack anything outside of that range, that code was carried over for sentry drones even though it shouldn't have. If they fixed it so that you ONLY had to devote all of your midslots to drone tracking Comps then the Domi would be a fine albeit somewhat difficult to use ship in a fleet fight.
But devoting all your highs to control range mods and all your mids to tracking mods leaves you BADLY gimped.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.22 19:25:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Gierling on 22/03/2006 19:27:06
Originally by: Isonkon Serikain
me sheds a tear for all the disenfranchised dominix pilots out there... yeah buddy, I know... its rough flying a domi these days...
Post an argument or don't post at all.
I'm more then willing to be convinced otherwise however I haven't seen anything to indicate that there is ANYTHING the Domi does that the Mega can't do equally as well or better.
This also applies to the poor poor phoon.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 08:02:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Gierling on 23/03/2006 08:03:57
Seeing as how no one has posted on this thread since my last post, I DECLARE VICTORY!
I await the eventual boost the Domi has been proven to deserve. 
Although in all seriousness, post some of your Domi setups and we can look at how they compare to the Mega.
And I think I'll restate that the original point of this thread was that SISI isn't up and we can't test these proposed changes.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 17:29:00 -
[23]
to hit over 100k with sentries you need several Drone tracking comps (Which is perfectly acceptable), and several drone control range mods because the sentries will not activate on somethin outside of your control range.
If they fixed that little error and released named and tech II drone tracking mods then the domi would be a fine alternative.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 18:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cummilla
hey guys, take it easy on gierling, he is really THE only cool person in ASCN. 
Odd my bs meter must be broken, because its currently being pegged by a statement which is obviously so totally true.  Seriously theres tons of cool folk in ASCN and from how often I get ripped on in teamspeak I highly doubt that I am the coolest. However thanks for the compliment that made me smile.
Back to the Domi, two statements first off 100k isn't sniper range. Sniping is a 200k business. 100-130k is a pretty standard range where battleships need to be effective at.
Second off Idon't think that the solution necessarily has to be a grid increase, although that would be helpful. I'm actually starting to like the "Remove the targetting limitation on sentry drones and release named and T2 drone tracking comps" alternative a lot more. Its a little excessive to ask for a module to be paired with another module (drone tracking comps and range augments) to actually be useable.
Can we agree on that?
Frankly I still think 1750 more base grid would be the easiest way to solve the problem (as in the least amount of mucking around with the database). I still can't imagine a setup that would be obscenely overpowered with that much extra grid. (If you can think of one please do post it though).
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 19:59:00 -
[25]
I'd say of my pvp experience at most 5% is blob warfare.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:07:00 -
[26]
Cus about 35% is in a battleship and those fights are often at 100k.
Unless you want to call 15 ships a blob.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:54:00 -
[27]
Don't, I have plenty of short range Battleship fights, roaming squads, etc.
Only thing I don't do that much of is 1v1, actually I don't think I've ever seen a 1v1.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.24 06:12:00 -
[28]
Thats a good way to get a 1 v ganksquad.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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Gierling
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Posted - 2006.03.27 07:46:00 -
[29]
That may be the case but I'm more interested in getting the Domi to be a reasonable alternative to the Mega, and eventually the third Gallente Battleship Which is likely to have the same slot layout that the Domi has.
PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
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