Dear CCP,

With all the stuff that you are fixing, can you remove the autopilot-not-warping-to-zero "feature" as well?

It is obviously outdated and plain stupid.

Tired Finger

No. If you wanna stay safe, stay active. Now go back to WOW and get your brand new mount.

No. If you wanna stay safe, stay active. Now go back to WOW and get your brand new mount.

None of the above is a valid reason for not having "warping to zero", in fact, warping-to-zero is the most logical thing to have with an "autopilot" feature.

There is no reason to leave out this "feature" when CCP is already fixing a lot of the nonsense in the game.

For the sake of context please list other nonsense that is in the game that CCP are fixing.

None of the above is a valid reason for not having "warping to zero", in fact, warping-to-zero is the most logical thing to have with an "autopilot" feature.

There is no reason to leave out this "feature" when CCP is already fixing a lot of the nonsense in the game.

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to re-live it.

Learning skills

Agents

CONCORDED insurance

For the sake of arguement can you explain what history

Dear CCP,

With all the stuff that you are fixing, can you remove the autopilot-not-warping-to-zero "feature" as well?

It is obviously outdated and plain stupid.

Tired Finger

Learning skills

Agents

CONCORDED insurance

What do these changes have to do with auto pilot settings? (you have failed to provide context for your position)

another one of those perennial bad ideas. AP WTZ = reward for going afk = f*ck that.

Greetings capsuleer,

This is a mandated safety measure when activating your autopilot.

On crowded gates, especially when moving through high traffic systems such as Jita, CONCORD requires a ship flying on auto-pilot to warp to 15km and approach the gate at sublight speed.

Of course, with the full neural interface of a capsuleer in control of the ship you are allowed to warp to 0km as you have the boosted reactions and decision making to handle those scenarios.

I would caution against relying entirely on the machine. Pilots can adapt; a machine not so readily.

I think it's about time we remove warp to zero entirely and change autopilot to 30km.
Less mobility would be a good thing imo.

Fixing redundant boring useless stuff

It is also putting off trial accounts who just joined the game and realize it is a boring game because autopilot doesnt work.

When you get down to it Eve is simply a collection of redundant boring useless stuff.

It breaks them in gently, leading to the realization that the whole game is boring, not just the fact that auto pilot is 'broken'.

another one of those great ideas which will make eve a much more entertaining game. AP WTZ = not being forced to endure the booring chore which is travel in eve, which is supposed to be a game, which is supposed to be fun and entertaining. Not a chore = cheers to that.

Autopilot's 15km warpin might suck but it allows for entry-level pirating in highsec.
You can gank all those haulers using autopilot quite easily.

This is not broken, this is intended.

If you want to avoid being blown up while you're snoozing, i suggest you sit in your pilots chair and fly your ship

LOL, "a broken feature is intented for the abuse of the broken feature therefore should not be fixed"

No. Don't generalize and dodge the problem.

Its not a broken feature. You are misquoting me, massively. Do you work for Fox News? I said, its NOT a broken feature, so dont quote me saying "a broken feature is..." because thats -not- what i said.

It is intended yes, so the lazy pilots are left at risk, As it should be. Lazy truck drivers are more likely to run themselves off the road. Lazy Ship Captains floating past Somalia are left at risk as well. This is pretty basic concept.

Your only reasoning for making autopilot warp-to-0 is that you're a lazy highsec noob and want the game to play for you, while you do other things

LOL, "a broken feature is intented for the abuse of the broken feature therefore should not be fixed"

Why is warping to 15 a good idea then?

LOL, "a broken feature is intented for the abuse of the broken feature therefore should not be fixed"

Its not a broken feature. You are misquoting me, massively. Do you work for Fox News? I said, its NOT a broken feature, so dont quote me saying "a broken feature is..." because thats -not- what i said.

It is intended yes, so the lazy pilots are left at risk, As it should be. Lazy truck drivers are more likely to run themselves off the road. Lazy Ship Captains floating past Somalia are left at risk as well. This is pretty basic concept.

Your only reasoning for making autopilot warp-to-0 is that you're a lazy highsec noob and want the game to play for you, while you do other things

Ok then:
Why do I have to log in and adjust my PI extractors when it would be just as easy for them to be coded to find the highest yield position within range? Oh its a time sink.
Why do I have to position my cyno alts into the destination system and 5km off of the undock of a station when it could be easily coded to have NPC cyno beacons on stations? Oh its a time sink.
Why do I have to monitor market prices and can't program in a price range that auto updates with other bidders? Oh its a time sink.

Please explain how shooting someone who is using autopilot feature is abusing said feature?

Boosted reaction wouldn't save you from warping into each other anyway so there really is no difference.

Dear CCP,

With all the stuff that you are fixing, can you remove the autopilot-not-warping-to-zero "feature" as well?

It is obviously outdated and plain stupid.

Tired Finger

No, travelling is an incredibly booring chore. It's like being at work with a super slow computer trying to do some spreadheets: click, wait, click, wait, click, wait... Doesn't require any skill what so ever, and thus can not in any way be classed as playing a game.

And supposedly there's a reward, which is supposedly that you get there sooner. I see it differently. If you don't do it, you get punished by increasing your travel time.

And you say too lazy highsec noob that wants the game to play for you, and you use real life analogies. Oh dear. You know what I think, I think it's the lazy suicide gankers who don't want to expend any effort in getting their ganks.

Its not. Its not supposed to be.
Everyone tells you, dont use autopilot. Its because warping to 15 and slowboating to the gate is a BAD IDEA.

This option however, is left open for people who want to take that risk still. Consider it a gift. If it wasnt warp-to-15 there would be no autopilot at all. Enjoy the bonus its giving you already.

PI extractors: because it takes skill to find the optimal layout or positions etc.

Cyno alt 5km: broken game

Monitor market prices: intellectually challenging game is intellectually challenging



But manualpiloting what should be the autopilot feature is braindead, repetitive, boring, useless.

Other than creating "ganking oppotunities" but it is of course just an emergent gameplay and not a design intention.

Okay, here's the problem with that.

Autopilot-to-15 existed back when the closest you could warp to the gate without bookmarks was.. surprise.. 15. And back then, people actually used autopilot because, hey, there was a reason to use it! Now, there isn't, except for a niche. Don't give me all this talk of "risk". Being AFK is a risk. This change would primarily benefit people who are attentive and at their keyboard. You'd see a barely noticable decrease in people autopiloting to 15 in exchange for an enormous jump in AFK pilots either flying through space helpless to adapt or else sitting AFK at their destination.

Even if you're a pirate, this change is profitable to you.

Moving PI extractors requires no skill
Monitoring market prices is not intellectually stimulating
Your logic for not having a cyno beacon on NPC stations is two random disconnected words.

All of these things are time sinks. Flying by auto pilot is a greater time sink than clinking the buttons to manual fly.

Even if the change is not profitable to pirates it is still a change that should happen.

Yes, traveling 20 or 30 jumps through highsec is boring.
*ding ding ding* highsec is boring.

Now that we've figured that out, we can maybe grow a pair and check out lowsec and nullsec. 5 jumps through 0.0 space in your hauler isnt as boring. This is where the real eve game is.

Have you ever played Guild Wars? Do you remember Pre-Sear? That is GW equivelent of HIghsec. The game doesnt start untill you are in low/nullsec. If you want to choose to remain in highsec for years and years (or forever) You will need to learn to love it the way it is, and stop crying to have YOUR gameplay style override everyone else's.

This game was designed ground up to be hostile, and unforgiving. If you cant handle that, you need to find a different game.

Dear CCP,

With all the stuff that you are fixing, can you remove the autopilot-not-warping-to-zero "feature" as well?

It is obviously outdated and plain stupid.

Tired Finger

Hi-sec isn't safe. It shouldn't be safe. It should be more secure than low sec and null sec. Hisec is more secure than null sec and low sec. Autopilot WTZ would go a LONG way to making hi-sec safe. That is not what CCP wants. Also, quit whining, there was a time when there was no WTZ, and you had to set up bookmarks for all the major routes you'd take. Seriously, there is absolutely no problem with warping the way it is now, you're just a lazy idiot. Now GTFO the forums.


Oh, and this has nothing to do with suicide ganking, it has to do with actually paying attention to your damn screen on occasion in hi-sec. Its not like you have to pay constant attention with WTZ as it is, you just have to check back often enough to jump and warp to the next stargate.

Ehh, even though we both support the same thing, I still have to fundamentally disagree. If APWTZ would actually destroy an entire well-established segment of gameplay, I'd be skeptical to endorse its implementation. The thing is, it doesn't.

The key is not to tell people that they're wrong, it's to find out why people disagree, and figure out if their objections are valid or not. In this case, I don't think they are. If I were a suicide ganker, hell, I'll take "frequent AFK at destination" over "infrequent AFK at 15 and approaching the gate".

Seriously, there is absolutely no problem with warping the way it is now, you're just a lazy idiot.

I've addressed your other objections in previous posts, but in regards to this, I could've said the same about clickfest-era PI.

They're probably concerned, as most people are, about if this would make the game "too safe". But the whole premise on APWTZ being "too safe" is based on the premise that there are a ton of people using APWTF. There aren't.

Greetings capsuleer,

This is a mandated safety measure when activating your autopilot.

On crowded gates, especially when moving through high traffic systems such as Jita, CONCORD requires a ship flying on auto-pilot to warp to 15km and approach the gate at sublight speed.

Of course, with the full neural interface of a capsuleer in control of the ship you are allowed to warp to 0km as you have the boosted reactions and decision making to handle those scenarios.

I would caution against relying entirely on the machine. Pilots can adapt; a machine not so readily.

AP WTZ would make travel which is already fairly quick even quicker

I haul crap in freighters, it takes forever, its annoying, and it means I have to switch to my other EVE client about once every two minutes.

I'm sorry you feel that highsec is booring. If it's so booring for you, then I think you need to leave highsec. Also, there is no such thing as a real/not real game in eve. It's a sandbox game. There is no end game. The game is whatever you want it to be. The only thing apwt15 is doing right now is making me avoid travelling at all costs.

If I want to stay safe, I know damn well that wtz is not the answer. I've been to lowsec, and I've been to 0.0. Yes, it's fun, but it's time consuming. I don't have that much time to play anymore, and that throws those sort of group activities out the window.

Nope, I never played guild wars. And you say I should stop crying because I want to have my gamestyle override other gamestyles. Well, I'll play it differently. I just don't want other people's playstyles add a timesink to my gamestyle. And it's only there because of lazy gankers whining about it since wtz was introduced.

Removing apwt15 would not i nany way override anyones gamestyle. It would just provide more of a challange.

Are you and I traveling through the same Jita gates? I see tons of people on autopilot.

CCP is taking away insurance payout if you are CONCORD'd.

Dear CCP,

With all the stuff that you are fixing, can you remove the autopilot-not-warping-to-zero "feature" as well?

It is obviously outdated and plain stupid.

Tired Finger

Can I get a citation on this? If it's true, it's about ******* time.

We took the insurance out because having it was silly. It's like a double reward when you gank someone, you get their cargo and insurance. It won't stop suicide ganking, it just fixes something we haven't really felt made sense for a long time.

I'm sure we would be much safer if the denizens of New Eden developed instant teleportation. I mean why not? All it does is remove the travel time, and I don't care about suicide gankers opinion, so that should be implemented. It'll make the game much more profitable and fun for industrialists!

If you don't want to sit at your keyboard and play the game then either a) you're in the wrong profession within Eve or b) this isn't the game for you.

but saying "Mine is the only one that matters, I don't care about gankers"

(and "It's boring" isn't a valid reason, or PI would be completely automated for me)

If you're going to pick an analogy, pick one that makes sense. Instant teleportation would utterly destroy any and all sense of local economy, along with making haulers almost completely redundant.

Tell that to the miners.

Honestly, I don't care much about the gankers, and I believe the needs of many outweigh the needs of a few, but even if we were to take the desires of gankers in top priority, they still wouldn't suffer from this change because you'd get a ton more people autopiloting AFK everywhere in highsec, which would mean a ton more people sitting AFK at their destination.

But.. PI did get majorly reworked because it was considered tedious.

If you want fast travel times with little risk, there are plenty of games that have that. EVE shouldn't be one of them.

And of course, what's to stop people from demanding that AP dock them as well?

Dear CCP,

With all the stuff that you are fixing, can you remove the autopilot-not-warping-to-zero "feature" as well?

It is obviously outdated and plain stupid.

Tired Finger

How, exactly, is APWTZ safer or faster than manned WTZ?


I long ago learned to counter slippery slope with reductio ad absurdum. Don't tempt me.

APWTZ isn't faster, but it allows you to multitask more efficiently, which I'm opposed to in EVE.

No, travelling is an incredibly booring chore. It's like being at work with a super slow computer trying to do some spreadheets: click, wait, click, wait, click, wait... Doesn't require any skill what so ever, and thus can not in any way be classed as playing a game.

And supposedly there's a reward, which is supposedly that you get there sooner. I see it differently. If you don't do it, you get punished by increasing your travel time.

And you say too lazy highsec noob that wants the game to play for you, and you use real life analogies. Oh dear. You know what I think, I think it's the lazy suicide gankers who don't want to expend any effort in getting their ganks.

7/10 I'm actually mad. There's a reason your Eve interface resembles an OS UI that was originally designed explicitly for multitasking.

Occasionally looking away from chat or market to right click warp click jump is not a lot of work, so why make it that extra step easier.

As a "high sec carebear" I say leave it as is.

If your ship and/or cargo is that valuable, then pay attention and fly it manually.

Empire is safe enough...there should be some room for "error" and facepalm moments.

you just trollin? I cant believe my eyes,,, a highsec carebear with a brain... what?

Don't stop with warp to zero. Why not also auto MWD+cloak and dock at final destination. I know you want it soon.

CCP never wanted people to warp to zero

They why didn't they simply make the 15km distance radial?

As in, you warp to your target, and you come in 15km away in a random direction? There, I just kept WT15 and at the same time destroyed all WTZ bookmarks.

Not being able to warp to zero on autopilot is meant to reward players who actually sit at the keyboard (a reward that comes in the form of less time taken to travel).

CCP never wanted people to warp to zero

Hey Im not arguing the lack of logic in their decision. ;) I was around for the WTZ change, and am only speaking on what CCP told us at the time about their reluctance to allow WTZ, and the reasons behind it.

And they could do it in a way to reduce travel time while still retaining campers' ability to get their pound of flesh.

I'm considering starting up an assembly hall thread, but those aren't good for my health.

I really think this would be a good change, but I'm trying to figure out if there are angles I haven't covered yet.

Basically, there are three types of people who'd use APWTZ:

1) Regular attentive pilots
2) AFK lowsec/nullsec pilots
3) AFK highsec pilots

For 1, there's no practical change. A person at the keyboard APWTZing is no safer or faster than if they were piloting manually. They just have to deal with less tedium. For 2, it's a non-issue: AFK low and nullsec autopiloters don't exist, currently.

The key is 3, mainly in the effects it'd have on suicide gankers.

I'd argue the change is highly desirable for suicide gankers because while it'd become much harder to kill autopiloters in transit, there'd be an enormous jump in autopiloters AFK on destination, because all the old autopilot AFKers would still autopilot AFK, and there'd be new ones who'd do it too (ie those who are only going to be AFK for, say, 15 minutes instead of 6 hours) who'd also be vulnerable.

But I might be missing something. Any ideas, guys?

Jita Lag. Server stress. Enjoy.

I really think this would be a good change, but I'm trying to figure out if there are angles I haven't covered yet.

linkage to post warp to zero history


Warp-to-0, instas, and you...

There once was a time when there was no warp-to-0. This was a horrible time where people were forced to warp within 15 kilometers of a gate and fly within 2.5km of the gate before jumping and to start the process anew. This was the dark ages of pirates, where pilots were actually vulnerable when travelling. Pilots were unjustly forced to use higher-brain functions by looking at the map and plotting a safe course around potential gate camps. Pilots who lacked such higher-brain functions were left to die miserably to the gate camps.

One day, such a pilot suddenly had a stroke of uncharacteristic genius! In his frequently travelled systems, he could create bookmarks approximately 12-15km from the gate such that when he warped from one gate to the bookmark, he would land directly on top of it! Thus instas, and the great bookmark revolution began. Everyone began creating instas for their favorite systems. It was soon discovered that as the number of gates increased in a system, the number of instas that you need to complete the "set", so to speak, grew exponentially. Soon, an entire market sprang up out of nowhere, based upon the sale of large areas of instas!

This is when the glorious instas showed their dark side. With so many millions upon millions of instas in existence they slowly gave birth to a demon of pure lag. Tales are told of pilots who accidentally opened their people and places window and were forced to wait an eternity as the instas finished loading.

Meanwhile, people continued to use instas, and they became a integral part of EVE. Entire alliances kept sets of bookmarks for the regions of space they occupied. Escrow was filled with advertisements selling thousands upon thousands of bookmarks. Pirates and carebears a like would not be caught anywhere near low sec or 0.0 without a full set of instas.

As the problems continued, TQ slowly grinded to a halt. It was then that CCP decided that something must be done! They asked players for ideas. It was then that 4 mighty factions on the Features and Ideas forum formed. The WTZ faction, the Nuke Instas faction, the Starmaps faction, and the corporate bookmarks faction. Each faction waged bitter forum war against each other, deciding that their solution to the insta problem was correct. In general, the pirates favored the Nuke Instas option, while carebears favored the WTZ option. Those in the middle favored Starmaps or corporate bookmarks. After a long bloody war that left no soul unscathed, CCP decided that instas had become too important to remove. On top of this, Starmaps and corporate bookmarks would require too much code, and/or would not yield enough decrease in lag (though I still of the fervant opinion that Starmaps would've been much cooler, and still to this day disagree with Maya on this point). It was then that Warp To 0km was championed by CCP. A great treaty was signed by all of the forum warriors that Warp To 0km on Autopilot was a pandoras box that if opened, would end all concepts of danger from low sec and 0.0. Thus CCP did not allow Autopilot to utilize WTZ. Thus as CCP introduced WTZ, The Great Bookmark Massacre began, as millions upon millions of instas were mercilessly slaughtered.

And this brings us to today...

What is your trade-off?

and thus ended with a mutual agreement between players

CCP never wanted autopilot to warp to zero. Autopilot is for those who do not care enough for their safety to manually fly.

LOL. When travelling long distances I use Autopilot AND Warp to 0.

1. Warp to Zero and hit CTRL-S to activate Autopilot.
2. Do something else on my second monitor.
3. "Autopilot jumping" audio prompts me to return to game.
4. Hit CTRL-S to disable Autopilot.
5. Warp to Zero and hit CTRL-S to activate Autopilot.
6. Do something else on my second monitor.
7. Rinse and repeat...

Dear CCP,

With all the stuff that you are fixing, can you remove the autopilot-not-warping-to-zero "feature" as well?

It is obviously outdated and plain stupid.

Tired Finger

lol

1. Warp to Zero.
2. Activate Autopilot.
3. Do what you want until you hear the jumpsound
4. While Autopilot waits a few seconds, Warp to Zero.
2. ... 3. ...

LOL

Same process. Less detail?

The tradeoff is implicit. The drawback of AFK autopiloting is that you're AFK. That means you can't respond to in-game changes, can't activate your modules, can't check local markets, can't discuss matters with your corp.. do I really need to go on?

Then what is the difference between warp to zero and warp to 15 if you are AFK. None, except for the reduced traveling time but as you're AFK it makes no difference.

Wrap to zero was a terrible change

I might be in favor of "warp accuracy" because it'd open up potentially interesting gameplay changes, but as long as WTZ is here, we should have APWTZ.

If you want to fly safe you have to be at your computer.

Evidently not.

Moved from "EVE General Discussion".

Dear CCP,

With all the stuff that you are fixing, can you remove the autopilot-not-warping-to-zero "feature" as well?

It is obviously outdated and plain stupid.

Tired Finger

The problem is that, while at first glance a WTZ option seems beneficial, it will have negative consequences. If you do this, you can effectively rule out hauling as a profession as all it would now require is getting the contract, loading time, activate autopilot and voila. You'll fly just as safe as if you were at the keyboard, and just as fast.

I'm torn here honestly. It's just odd you can't WTZ with autopilot but I entirely see why they left it like this, and I don't really see any way around the issues it would cause.

Learning skills

Agents

CONCORDED insurance

INB4 pilots already using the auto warp to 0 hack wanting to maintain their advantage.

Oops, too late.