stuff

I posted a petition for my freighter loss. No reply from CCP yet and almost 2 weeks gone. Is it legal?

Quick question while on this subject.
Can a single escort with a pair of stasis webs sling a freighter to warp through the bumps ?

Bumping is an allowed game mechanic. Even so I would be infuriated if I were forced to sit there for an hour without being able to log off. At least they finally got around to putting you out of your misery.

Nothing can stop you from logging off. Or Ejecting. Or Self Destructing. Except yourself.

I guess I need to play with the "log off safely" mechanic again. I honestly have no idea how it works since I almost always dock up. Only used it a few times when out in npc null.

My understanding is that, even if safe logoff is unavailable and the emergency warp fails, the ship will still vanish 15 minutes after logoff. So as long as the DPS to kill the freighter doesn't arrive before that 15 minutes is up, the freighter would survive.

Or is there something I'm missing ?

My understanding is that, even if safe logoff is unavailable and the emergency warp fails, the ship will still vanish 15 minutes after logoff. So as long as the DPS to kill the freighter doesn't arrive before that 15 minutes is up, the freighter would survive.

Or is there something I'm missing ?

Probably not. Once the bumping starts, webbing into warp is far less effective.

A single escort can easily web you into warp before the first bump lands, though. I'd go with 3 or 4 webs though.

If you're dual boxing the escort and Freighter, you can use the time that the Freighter is cloaked to manually fly the escort within range. Just takes a little practice to be able to orient yourself to using the Freighter's overview and screen to guide your escort's motions.
Or just press the easy button and buy a Rapier, Huginn, or Hyena.

yes but a pair of ships coudl do it.. by counter bumping the machariel to give the freighter some needed seconds. Not guaranteed, but better than nothing.

Sure, a pair of ships could probably do it. But they were asking about what a single escort could do.

No reply from CCP yet and almost 2 weeks gone.

Would webbing the machariel achieve anything. Grab any old cheap cruiser from the lcal station' something like a celestis with 5 mid slots. Fit as many Webber's as you can and when the machariel finishes a bump stack 5 Webber's on it and just shut down its ability to bump again. You'd have until concord arrived to get the freighter into warp. Worst case concord already being there when the gank ships arrive will make the time the gank ships have to do their job a lot shorter?

I got ganked to Hisec with 25B of assets in my freighter.

I was bumped by a machariel for an hour and an rookie-ship attacked me every time I tried to logoff to keep the globals on me so I could not do anything but wait 1hour and then my freighter was shot.

I need CCP opinion if this is allowed gameplay. Is it allowed that freighter is kept stuck for an hour by bumping and using a rookie-ship to keep aggroes up?

I died.

I'd say this would fall under harassment in terms of bumping. With multiple attempts to leave and even to log off over the course of an hour while they just kept harassing the freighter.

"persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment"

While it will involve inconvenience, we will have to see that one actively tried evasion before we consider someone being followed around and harassed. Merely changing belts in the same system or moving a few thousand meters to another asteroid would not qualify in this regard. Ideally you would move to other systems and more than just one or two jumps to avoid being found again quickly, requiring some effort to locate you again (i.e. through locator agents).

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2536157#post2536157



Italics for the important bit you missed.

Freighter was trying to move to another location, persistent bumping was preventing that. Do try to keep up.

moving a few thousand meters ... would not qualify in this regard. Ideally you would move to other systems and more than just one or two jumps to avoid being found again quickly,

Let's see if you can get it with fewer words to distract you:

The freighter could not move because of bumping.

The guidance makes clear that some bumping is acceptable but excessive or repeated bumping is not (I even underlined the word you seem to have missed).

Using game mechanics to hold the freighter for that amount of time to has be wrong.

If the Freighter pilot wants to get away, they're free to log off, self destruct, or eject.

I get it just fine Pipa, we just disagree on interpretation. The quoted guidance is set out to address miner bumping but it sets perimeters as to what is and is not acceptable. The freighter could not move because of bumping. The guidance makes clear that some bumping is acceptable but excessive or repeated bumping is not (I even underlined the word you seem to have missed). I think the the amount of time the freighter was held for was excessive and qualifies as harassment. Had this been a well planned op and the bumping been used to hold the freighter whilst a fleet warps in then fine but, clearly, this op was done on the fly and took an hour to put together. Using game mechanics to hold the freighter for that amount of time to has be wrong.

Obviously, OP put too many eggs in one basket and freighter bumping/ganking is perfectly legal. However, I tend to think that at some point, an hour, 3 hours, I don't know how long, but at some point this becomes harassment. If I have to stay logged on an extra 4 hours because of a noob ship bumping me, that's just ridiculous.

Man up gankers. The target was man enough to undock a 25 bil isk freighter ...

Obviously, OP put too many eggs in one basket and freighter bumping/ganking is perfectly legal. However, I tend to think that at some point, an hour, 3 hours, I don't know how long, but at some point this becomes harassment. If I have to stay logged on an extra 4 hours because of a noob ship bumping me, that's just ridiculous.

CCP has said, if you have to follow someone to the point of using locator agents, it crosses a line. Also, insistent bumping that prevents the target from taking ANY action (note, this isn't "action I want to take") for long periods of time is frowned on.

CCP isn't going to help the miner out who gets bumped off an icecube, and keeps returning. They have ample time to go elsewhere, get a PVP ship, something to combat the bumper. They also won't say anything about the freighter who gets pingponged for 15 minutes while a gank fleet moves in.

Now, the guy who gets ping-ponged for 4 hours, with no chance to warp, move away, or anything....yeah, CCP (and me, for that matter) will frown on that and take action.

Why do it this way instead of just ganking the freighter on the gate?? It gets the loot scooper off the gate so that when he loots and gets a suspect flag he has a margin of safety from all the other folks in eve that may now shoot him. Man up gankers. The target was man enough to undock a 25 bil isk freighter - you should be man enough to scoop the loot on a gate instead of wimping out and using the e-warp to keep you RELATIVELY SAFE.

How exactly did this work? Okay, the freighter gets bumped to prevent warping and aggressed by a noobship to prevent logoff. But the aggression must spawn Concord, meaning that when the Taloses arrived on grid for the gank, CONCORD is already there and its response time is much quicker. Did they just bring enough Taloses to beat even the already-spawned CONCORD?

I'd say this would fall under harassment in terms of bumping. With multiple attempts to leave and even to log off over the course of an hour while they just kept harassing the freighter.

I got reply from GM. He really did not answer my question, gave a diplomatic answer, talked about reimbursement which I did not talk myself with a single word.

My point was: IS THE GAME BROKEN and GM did not address that matter with a single word. Just going round robin.

So, CCP official answer is clear:
The phenomenon on topic is LEGAL.

However, same thing if ship disappears from space in the meantime - is ILLEGAL.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=300515
Yes I was in the end, on emergency warp. :) I was killed on the emergency warp. However, my ship did not disappear from space in the meantime. But still I was on emergency warp, could not do anything. If this is not metagaming then what is?

So, CCP is in my opinion allowing the things they cant prohibit with their current version of game. Its so simple. HOWEVER, with the login/noshipinspace, the thing can be manually monitored so much more easier, THEY CAN SEE IT FROM LOGS. The same **** phrase again: OUR LOGS SHOW NOTHING. If its not on logs, it did not happen.



And yes I had support fleet, I brang 2 armor logistics to try to outrep the gank. I was a lil disoriented of the attack so the webbing of freighter did not come to my mind but later. YES I HAD SO MUCH TIME, I logged in alt and my corpmate came to help too. We had Oneiros and Guardian repping the Obelisk the moment the gank hit. We had so much time that we bought them from jita, fitted and flew to grid. Actually we had so much time we could have done it 5 times.

Yes I admit I was tired, wanted to move assets from Jita (not 4-4 station) to Sobaseki (1 jump), I kind of knew its risky. But I did not know of its possible to do the thing on topic. I dont blame myself for stupidity. I just did not know the matter on topic is possible with new game mechanics (new to me). Now I know and if I go to it again, I blame myself for stupidity.

I rest my case. :)

Yes. This is nothing new.

Highsec isn't 100% safe. Loading your freighter with 20 odd bil was your first mistake. As for making the game more 'realistic' by removing meta-gaming, have you ever seen Eve's marketing?

FWIW, Concord warps one fleet for each ganker. If there is a Concord fleet next to the frieghter from the noob ship aggression, that means that only one of the ultimate gank squad will have a very fast Concord response. The rest will have to wait until their personal Concord fleets either spawn or warp to the location.

Engagements lasting several hours is not something extraordinary in EVE. I think this falls nicely into that category.

Really? Most long fleet engagements consist of pilots who voluntarily came for the fight. They may not have known it could last hours, but they knew it could.

That is a bit different from someone in this situation.

While I agree that the mechanics needed to be changed to prevent the old Logofski problem, it seems like there should be some sort of limits.

While it is unfair if the freighter pilot could DC and POOF be gone in 60 seconds, if it takes an hour for the ganker to get their S**T together to shoot the thing, they should lose the opportunity as well.

Exploiting a design fault is what it is called; an EXPLOIT. Recently on two occasions, ship bumping was ruled an exploit of game mechanics.

EVE is a relatively sophisticated game. Bumping is primitive. It should go.

I got reply from GM. He really did not answer my question, gave a diplomatic answer, talked about reimbursement which I did not talk myself with a single word.

My point was: IS THE GAME BROKEN and GM did not address that matter with a single word. Just going round robin.

So, CCP official answer is clear:
The phenomenon on topic is LEGAL.

However, same thing if ship disappears from space in the meantime - is ILLEGAL.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=300515
Yes I was in the end, on emergency warp. :) I was killed on the emergency warp. However, my ship did not disappear from space in the meantime. But still I was on emergency warp, could not do anything. If this is not metagaming then what is?

So, CCP is in my opinion allowing the things they cant prohibit with their current version of game. Its so simple. HOWEVER, with the login/noshipinspace, the thing can be manually monitored so much more easier, THEY CAN SEE IT FROM LOGS. The same **** phrase again: OUR LOGS SHOW NOTHING. If its not on logs, it did not happen.



And yes I had support fleet, I brang 2 armor logistics to try to outrep the gank. I was a lil disoriented of the attack so the webbing of freighter did not come to my mind but later. YES I HAD SO MUCH TIME, I logged in alt and my corpmate came to help too. We had Oneiros and Guardian repping the Obelisk the moment the gank hit. We had so much time that we bought them from jita, fitted and flew to grid. Actually we had so much time we could have done it 5 times.

Yes I admit I was tired, wanted to move assets from Jita (not 4-4 station) to Sobaseki (1 jump), I kind of knew its risky. But I did not know of its possible to do the thing on topic. I dont blame myself for stupidity. I just did not know the matter on topic is possible with new game mechanics (new to me). Now I know and if I go to it again, I blame myself for stupidity.

I rest my case. :)

Ganking Freighters in High-Sec should be OK if Warp Scrambles, Disruptors, etc. are used to stop a ship.

In this game we pretend that a collection of pixels are spaceships which have Tracking Speed and Warp Drives and Turrets, etc... and all of us enjoy this pretend world.
But if we believe in ship attributes, they also have Mass which is for an Obelisk is 940 million kgs and for a Machariel is 94 million kgs. Now if a spaceship repeatedly hits another (ten times bigger) one it will dent, crack and brake - will sustain damage. (if you do not believe this, try it with your RL spaceship at home or hit a cement truck ten times with your car)

Unfortunately, collisions do not cause damage to "spaceships" (lets call them that and not pixels) in this game, even though they should, be that accidental or intentional.
Collisions should cause damage, regardless if intentional or accidental. Not much, but a few percentage, so accidents would not cause significant damage/repair cost. Causing intentional (example 10 times within ten minutes) collisions should be considered an aggression.

Exploiting a design fault is what it is called; an EXPLOIT. Recently on two occasions, ship bumping was ruled an exploit of game mechanics.

EVE is a relatively sophisticated game. Bumping is primitive. It should go.

...
EVE is a relatively sophisticated game. Bumping is primitive. It should go.

Exploiting a design fault is what it is called; an EXPLOIT. Recently on two occasions, ship bumping was ruled an exploit of game mechanics.

I got ganked to Hisec with 25B of assets in my freighter.

Mistake number 1.
Anyone who saw you and had the ability to gank you was always going to gank you. You were so much a target that someone who spotted you spent an hour of their time holding you in place so they could get things ready to gank you. 25 billion is about 25 times the amount needed for it to be worth it.

I was bumped by a machariel for an hour and an rookie-ship attacked me every time I tried to logoff to keep the globals on me so I could not do anything but wait 1hour and then my freighter was shot.

Mistake number 2.
You had an hour and had no-one you could get to come to your aide to save 25 billion?

I need CCP opinion if this is allowed gameplay. Is it allowed that freighter is kept stuck for an hour by bumping and using a rookie-ship to keep aggroes up?

And heres your CCP opinion on the bumping part: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=199310&find=unread

However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment,

so this can clearly be called a case of harassment since it went on for 1 hour and he was trying to go somewhere

from that link

However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment,

so this can clearly be called a case of harassment since it went on for 1 hour and he was trying to go somewhere

The OP deserved to be ganked... Why in the world would you haul BPO's in a freighter?? Haul them a few at a time in a interceptor. That way if they do get extremely lucky to get you the loss isn't that big.

I don't agree with "bumping" as it doesn't make sense. I understand that "it's just a game" so everything in Eve can't be real but a ship being able to crash into another over, over and over to prevent it from warp is just silly.

Now if CCP wants to put another ganking mechanic to replace "bumping" that might be acceptable.

Bumping makes perfect sense. Setting up a faster than light travel would have to be extremely accurate. Hence the reason ships alighn before warping. At speeds that fast, even a miniscule adjustment would result in millions of miles of course deviation. Ergo.. Making sure the ship cannot alighn via bumping them makes pretty good sense to me..

I posted a petition for my freighter loss. No reply from CCP yet and almost 2 weeks gone. Is it legal?


Copy-paste:
Hi.

I got ganked to Hisec with 25B of assets in my freighter.

I was bumped by a machariel for an hour and an rookie-ship attacked me every time I tried to logoff to keep the globals on me so I could not do anything but wait 1hour and then my freighter was shot.

I need CCP opinion if this is allowed gameplay. Is it allowed that freighter is kept stuck for an hour by bumping and using a rookie-ship to keep aggroes up?

I think this is not proper way to use game mechanics. Even tho the current mechanics are more realistic than old "logoff games" but in this situation I think its unfair. If you want to make a realistic game then all kind of meta-gaming should be not possible. This is why the machariel should keep me pointed etc. but he cant do it in HiSec, thats why its called HiSec.

Game changes all the time, I had no idea this kind of bumping&keeping aggro is possible, to lose 20B of assets because of this kind of things is kind of frustrating and thereby I need a clear answer, does CCP allow it or not?


Kill: Stellar Fitzgerald (Obelisk)


Furthermore, CCP should remove emergency warp. Whats it for anymore with current game mechanics? It only creates unnecessary fuzz.

here.

Hauling 25bil worth cargo is bad. Furthermore auto-piloting with this freighter is worse... Assuming highsec is 100% risk-free is the worst. CCP will do nothing about it. Drink a cold glass of water and move on.

"Hauling 25bil worth of cargo is bad"
What difference does that make to you ? CODE recently killed an empty jump freighter in hi sec . Maybe more ! The point is that you don't care what a ship has in it .


"CCP will do nothing about it "............and you got this word from who ?

From CCP. Ganking and bumping are both acceptable emergent gameplay.

It seems to me that a freighter that can be held in place by a couple of smaller ships for an HOUR while they wake their buddies to do an organized hi sec gank is questionable game-play , at best . It may need a tweak in the near future if hi sec ganker organizations like CODE and Goonswarm's Bat Country Corp can't police themselves .

Yes and crashing one ship into another would result in massive damage to both ships. You might "bump" another ship once but that would be it. Being able to continuously bump is a silly game mechanic.

"Hauling 25bil worth of cargo is bad"
What difference does that make to you ? CODE recently killed an empty jump freighter in hi sec . Maybe more ! The point is that you don't care what a ship has in it .


"CCP will do nothing about it "............and you got this word from who ?

A shuttle can hold 100s of those blueprints

I don't have that much experience but I think a shuttle is impossible to attack if flown properly.

DO NOT AFK AROUND US BRAH !

Hey OP, as someone currently researching and trying to get an interview with this exact ganker (as he has been warming the cockles and sub-cocular regions of this hisec miscreant), he usually asks for and honors a RANSOM before executing his ganks...

Didn't you ultimately die because you refused to pay the ransom offered?

EvE, every action (or inaction) a consequence.

With that much isk on the line, I would have ganked you too, and I hate gankers.

Well, you're right about your first 6 words of that sentence, anyway.

People pop shuttles by the buttload every day. Mostly because some people give the incredibly bad advice to run blueprints in them, so for the tiny amount of firepower it takes to pop them, it might pay off huge.

people assume that CODE is only about money and extortion. No my friend, CODE does not let any illegal activity in it's vicinity (All High Sec) empty or not it is indifferent DO NOT AFK AROUND US BRAH !

+1 to some very good advice for whatever you're doing in Eve. If you want to AFK just dock and log off.

The only thing I could find in the OP's post that might draw the eye of CCP is that disposable noob ships were used to keep the aggro timer going to prevent log off. I don't think CCP would care unless it became a common occurrence.

This ^^

I don't have that much experience but I think a shuttle is impossible to attack if flown properly.

- as it exists the station it can warp out before the session timer expires. You're in warp with 1-2 sec to spare and you can't be locked on in this time. Also applies to stargates after you jumped to the destination and you're clocked. You can still warp-out while the session timer is active.

- not sure about this but I think it accelerates faster than a frigate to the max warp speed. This means it will get to the destination faster than any ship.

- smaller signature than a frigate, I think it's of light drone size signature. Hard to lock-on, hard to hit.

I just sent a share order but never tried this.

It's good to know (from the perspective of someone who pops shuttles all the time) that out there in the miasma of misinformation highseccers tell each other, there are actually some ideas that, if followed, are literally the worst possible thing to do.

Don't necro 7 week old threads.

More info on the blessed representitive of HTFU who extracted the OP's tears can be found here.

F

wanted to move assets from Jita (not 4-4 station) to Sobaseki (1 jump)

Well, you're right about your first 6 words of that sentence, anyway.

People pop shuttles by the buttload every day. Mostly because some people give the incredibly bad advice to run blueprints in them, so for the tiny amount of firepower it takes to pop them, it might pay off huge.

And you're right about 0 of yours.

Shuttles align in under 2 seconds. Combined with instadock BM they cannot be killed. Only a smartbomb in the right spot can do it; something that borderline never happens in high-sec.

This is why there are not many shuttle kills with massive ISK amounts inside, not compared to T1 industrial let's say.

Just when this thread dies someone gives it CPR

Yes, done properly a double webbing frig will cause warp the instant the webs hit. There is still an element of luck how far you are from your escort when you gate into system, but more escorts greatly diminishes the chance of a highly unfavorable gate-in. Holding gate cloak on the freighter and moving the webber into position works as well.

Ah, goddamit. I didn't realize, someone liked the post he replied to earlier today.

Engagements lasting several hours is not something extraordinary in EVE. I think this falls nicely into that category.