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Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
371
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 04:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
It's the little brother of the nidhoggur, which happens to be the worst capital ship in the game because of this bonus.
I really don't see the point in having a ship where the point is to fit half your reppers with armor and half with shield. May as well fly with half your ships armor logi and half shield logi, because it does the same thing and doesn't require another fail ship to be introduced.
edit: I realized that the nidhoggur is the second worst capital ship because phoenix. |

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
350
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 04:48:00 -
[32] - Quote
There would be no need to weaken the rep strength of a dual rep logi. It would either have the flexability to specialize one way or the other using all of its available slots and equal an already specialized existing logi (though probably lacking whatever the secondary bonus the dedicated logis have), or it would split it's ability between the two and be less effective on either one.
Much as a ship with split weapon bonuses, unless those bonuses are doubled as has been done on some minmatar hulls, the splitting itself is a weakness.
It's not a bad idea. It may not be optimal for organized and dedicated fleets, but EVE is a big game and there should be room in the sandbox for more casual playstyles to be supported and flourish if they can. |

Sarah Stallman
International Unification
110
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 05:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
The way I imagine something like this working, it would never be the best option, but would be viable for kitchensink fleets or other intances where you don't know what you're supporting. So it would be flexible at the cost of losing the edge of a specialist ship. |

Endovior
Osmosis Inc Li3 Federation
148
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 05:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
I seem to remember a ship idea posted not too long ago (a proposed Guristas Logi, IIRC), that had a bonus to all types of logistics drones instead of remote rep bonuses. That's probably the only concept that'd legitimately work as a multitank logistics boat, instead of merely being a novelty item. |

Sarah Stallman
International Unification
110
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
I dunno, I really think that a well rounded omni-logi would fit very well with the theme established in the SOE hulls of being a self-sufficient multi-role craft. A cruiser could easily be argued as overkill, but a frigate would not be remiss. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
913
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:There would be no need to weaken the rep strength of a dual rep logi. It would either have the flexability to specialize one way or the other using all of its available slots and equal an already specialized existing logi (though probably lacking whatever the secondary bonus the dedicated logis have), or it would split it's ability between the two and be less effective on either one.
Much as a ship with split weapon bonuses, unless those bonuses are doubled as has been done on some minmatar hulls, the splitting itself is a weakness.
It's not a bad idea. It may not be optimal for organized and dedicated fleets, but EVE is a big game and there should be room in the sandbox for more casual playstyles to be supported and flourish if they can. Yes there would be a need. If it is equal to an existing logi, then it becomes the only logi ship you ever need because it can do everything and obsoletes everything else. Which is bad. Or..... Unless you only have one logi in the entire fleet, it is then weaker than two separate logi for shield & armour. Which is also bad.
So, it's a bad idea no matter which way. |

Leafar Nightfall
Angels and Demons Inc. Mordus Angels
112
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:39:00 -
[37] - Quote
Hull repairing SOE logi ship!
Or a SOE ship that had bonus for shield reppers and armor repping drones would work too I guess... |

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
1192
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Tinukeda'ya Naskingar wrote:I do not understand why people oppose anything they personally do not use. Having more options to choose from is ALWAYS good. Obviously you won't be using this, while people around the op could use it more often. Just because you think it's not effective to run such fleet does not mean someone else doesn't have fun with it.
The game is not about having perfect strategies and tactics and the best organisation. It's about having fun.
And that your fleet will take the other to breakfast? Who cares. Not everyone is in a corp/alliance where calling start of roam in 30 minutes would fill every spot with the exact fit for the fleet. Someone just want to have fun with what they can scramble. And they would have even more fun with the above proposed ship.
As for balancing this one. It's not rocket science. CCP knows how to balance a ship like this would not be a big deal. you take your average logi for the basic attributes like speed/tank and make it worse in repairing armor and shield worse then specialized ship..
Just my 2 cents. THIS it's not about doing things right, or for maximum efficiency. Heck, the entire concept of right / correct fittings is an OPINION, based on what is at best the perception of what is most efficient. That has little to nothing to do with fun. Some of us want to just have fun, not compare excel sheets...
This again. Kitchen-sink fleet with kitchen-sink logi...why not just for the lols and the impromptu fleets that may happen.
I mean it might even encourage more people to get into a fight, oh good gosh did I suggest more kills to be had and more fun! Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |

Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association 24eme Legion Etrangere
31
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 13:26:00 -
[39] - Quote
Gawain Edmond wrote:or instead of having shield and armor bonuses on the same ship just make them rep hull instead!!
After reading page 1 I was about to post the same suggestion. +1 Gawain
SOE Logi should have bonus to sheild & armor repair bots ... no?
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3891
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Clementina wrote:The problem that I'm seeing is that a mixed shield/armor logistics would be harder to fly than a single repair type logistics, since you would have to choose what to repair someone with instead of just sending reps their way once they broadcast for it/yell on TS/start taking damage.
I think you can do what you want to do already. Have two squads. One for shield tankers and one for armor tankers. Have two logistics cruiser pilots. One in an Exequror and one in a Scythe. The Exequror should repair armor and try to tank shield and the Scythe repair shield and tank armor. The Exequror pilot should put the Scythe and the Armor squad on their watch list and the Scythe should put the shield squad and the Exequror on their watch list.
If you can fill more than two squads you need to implement some doctrine. At least enough doctrine to decide what the fleet is tanking. Ok, for the few who don't understand, a kitchen sink fleet means that a group has improvised major details in order to pull together a fleet.
No, you can't have functioning doctrines at all, and still be considered kitchen sink for this context. It really means no doctrines possible due to time or resource limits.
You are suggesting that order be established, exactly where it has been pointed out such order is not an option. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3891
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Gawain Edmond wrote:or instead of having shield and armor bonuses on the same ship just make them rep hull instead!! After reading page 1 I was about to post the same suggestion. +1 Gawain SOE Logi should have bonus to sheild & armor repair bots ... no? Hull repper for the win, in my opinion.
Also, keep in mind this is a kitchen sink scenario being discussed. This hull repping logi needs to be just as easily, if not more accessible, than current logi. SOE ships have the perception of being more difficult to get. A rare ship being needed to salvage the fun for a quickie fleet seems a weak solution. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |

Kirluin
24
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
to flesh the idea out further:
concept: logistics utility ship for small mixed gangs (i.e. kitchensink junkyard bring what you got pick-up fleets). Cheap and flexible for the pilot who will be lone logi in such a fleet, yet not as powerful in that role as ships dedicated to one rep type in more organized gangs. Think frontline grunt with a larger than usual first aid kit.
inexpensive "First Responder" t1 cruiser
4/4/4 slot layout (armor or shield tank at pilot's discretion) t1 resist profile.
Role Bonus: 1000% bonus to Remote Armor Repair System range Role Bonus: 1000% bonus to Remote Shield Boost System range Role Bonus: 1000% bonus to Energy Transfer Array range (to feed the laser boys every now and then) (observe no boosts to amount. cap use is debatable)
Drone Bandwidth: 50 mb Drone Bay: 125m3 (can carry a flight of shield AND armor rep drones, plus some spares / ecm or what have you for km whoring)
Cruiser skill bonus: 20% drone hp / level (not damage) and 10% / level drone MWD speed (this to give it some thematic flavor of its own)
special 300 m3 cap booster hold (i.e. make it tough to be cap stable without significant hit to tank, this is how many bandages are in your first aid kit)
Average mobility numbers
The sense I'm getting from the responses so far is that there are some people who never see spontaneous mixed fleet roams and therefore don't understand the utility of the role, which is understandable. Like a lot of other ships this one may not be for you.
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Kirluin
24
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Hull repper for the win, in my opinion.
Also, keep in mind this is a kitchen sink scenario being discussed. This hull repping logi needs to be just as easily, if not more accessible, than current logi. SOE ships have the perception of being more difficult to get. A rare ship being needed to salvage the fun for a quickie fleet seems a weak solution.
agree with all that, except possibly for the hull repper. I gave it some thought: hull is pretty thin and can't be resist boosted beyond a DC to my knowledge, and leaves zero room for error. As a logi I'd rather stick to standard shield or armor boostage. |

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3891
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 14:49:00 -
[44] - Quote
Kirluin wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Hull repper for the win, in my opinion.
Also, keep in mind this is a kitchen sink scenario being discussed. This hull repping logi needs to be just as easily, if not more accessible, than current logi. SOE ships have the perception of being more difficult to get. A rare ship being needed to salvage the fun for a quickie fleet seems a weak solution. agree with all that, except possibly for the hull repper. I gave it some thought: hull is pretty thin and can't be resist boosted beyond a DC to my knowledge, and leaves zero room for error. As a logi I'd rather stick to standard shield or armor boostage. Consider this option:
The logi gets bonuses to hull repping amount, in line with the shield and armor bonuses other logi enjoy already. (They can mount the large hull reppers) But, they can't mount large shield or armor reppers, just the mediums, albeit with range bonuses and other details intact.
Specifically: Cruiser skill bonus: 150% bonus to Remote Hull Repairer, Remote Armor Repair System and Shield Transport range per level
Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in All Remote Repair System capacitor use per level
Role Bonus: -50% CPU & Power need for Hull Repairers Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |

Clementina
Coreli Corporation
121
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:...
You are suggesting that order be established, exactly where it has been pointed out such order is not an option.
Order has already been established by the very act of bringing a logistics ship to start with. For your logistics ship to be useful you need three things, repairable ships, pilots who will broadcast for reps, and another logistics ship.
If people bring untanked cruisers kitted for speed and ECM, no amount of logistics will save them if they are primaried and tackled. Their fit might be good, but you have to tell people to bring repairable ships if you want your fleet to succeed.
If people don't broadcast for reps and the logistics pilots don't see them taking damage than those people will go down. People need to be taught to broadcast for reps. If you're going to teach people to broadcast for reps you can also teach them to fit for particular types of fleets.
If you only have one logistics ship, that ship will be primaried as soon as it wanders into range and it will go down. Then you have no logistics ships. If you are already requiring one person to fly a particular setup, you may as well require others to do so too.
You don't need to go full ****** and tell people to fit exactly X modules on Y ship that must be trained to level V and wear Z implants and carry exactly A,00 rounds of N ammo and W drone II's under threat of the FC podding them himself. But you do need to impose some order for logistics to be useful. No possible ship will change that.
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Clementina
Coreli Corporation
121
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:13:00 -
[46] - Quote
Clementina wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:...
You are suggesting that order be established, exactly where it has been pointed out such order is not an option. Order has already been established by the very act of bringing a logistics ship to start with. For your logistics ship to be useful you need three things, repairable ships, pilots who will broadcast for reps, and another logistics ship. If people bring untanked cruisers kitted for speed and ECM, no amount of logistics will save them if they are primaried and tackled. Their fit might be good, but you have to tell people to bring repairable ships if you want your fleet to succeed. If people don't broadcast for reps and the logistics pilots don't see them taking damage than those people will go down. People need to be taught to broadcast for reps. If you're going to teach people to broadcast for reps you can also teach them to fit for particular types of fleets. If you only have one logistics ship, that ship will be primaried as soon as it wanders into range and it will go down. Then you have no logistics ships. If you are already requiring one person to fly a particular setup, you may as well require others to do so too. You don't need to go full ****** and tell people to fit exactly X modules on Y ship that must be trained to level V and wear Z implants and carry exactly A,00 rounds of N ammo, W drone II's, and drink C beers, from D country before going out under threat of the FC podding them himself. But you do need to impose some order for logistics to be useful. No possible ship will change that.
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3892
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
Clementina wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:...
You are suggesting that order be established, exactly where it has been pointed out such order is not an option. Order has already been established by the very act of bringing a logistics ship to start with. For your logistics ship to be useful you need three things, repairable ships, pilots who will broadcast for reps, and another logistics ship. You make two points here, which I must disagree with.
The rest of what you wrote builds on these, so cannot stand without them being accepted. For that reason I saw no need to quote them.
Order has been established by the presence of a logi? Not necessarily at all. It simply means one of the pilots had the needed skills, and guessed that they would be more useful in bringing the logi instead of more DPS.
For the ship to be useful, you just need a watch list. Broadcasting for reps assumes a degree of order where the watch list can be second guessed, and some ships are prioritized over others despite superficial need. As to another logistics ship being needed, that is a luxury. This is a kitchen sink fleet, so having a FC everyone agrees to follow may be the highest point of organization which exists.
This fleet is a disorganized, fly by the seat of your pants, and shoot from the hip thrill ride. Only the very naive seriously expect to survive, the logi is there to give them a slightly longer rush of combat chaos.
It really is just for fun. Undock, and leave the rules behind, for we all die tonight. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |

Kirluin
25
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 15:59:00 -
[48] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote: Order has been established by the presence of a logi? Not necessarily at all. It simply means one of the pilots had the needed skills, and guessed that they would be more useful in bringing the logi instead of more DPS. ... This fleet is a disorganized, fly by the seat of your pants, and shoot from the hip thrill ride. Only the very naive seriously expect to survive, the logi is there to give them a slightly longer rush of combat chaos.
It really is just for fun. Undock, and leave the rules behind, for we all die tonight.
Exactly this. Also... some days I WANT to fly logi. Don't want to fly dps, but this fleet is all we got for the next hour.
An interesting riff on the hull tank concept: special highslot mod only this ship can fit that would do some hull repair but also repair / delay overheat damage on the target ship. Remote Hull Cooling System. could be a nice reason to fly this ship in other situations. |

Silent Rambo
State Protectorate Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 16:46:00 -
[49] - Quote
So much bitter vet whining.
+1
Id think a Minmatar ship would fit this idea the best (considering they are shield + armor tankers). Doesn't make much sense to make it an expensive faction ship. Id say change the tech one minmatar logi. |

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3892
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 17:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
Silent Rambo wrote:So much bitter vet whining.
+1
Id think a Minmatar ship would fit this idea the best (considering they are shield + armor tankers). Doesn't make much sense to make it an expensive faction ship. Id say change the tech one minmatar logi. Heck, tweak all the T1 logi boats, or offer a tier two variant for this.
That would let anyone new to logi get more options for fleets, even if they pursued the hull boosting variant.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |

Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1256
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 21:09:00 -
[51] - Quote
bring shield logi everyone benefits from reps hooray! "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3893
|
Posted - 2014.01.16 14:05:00 -
[52] - Quote
Batelle wrote:bring shield logi everyone benefits from reps hooray! You know perfectly well a logi is nearly useless if it has to replace shields or armor that are lost too quickly. That is why armor logi exist in the first place, because armor tankers don't want to waste fitting slots in order to boost shield resistances. Without good resists, shields and armor get eaten through like donuts at a police convention.
Get a fitting like a DCU or better a DCU2, however, which is often fitted by both styles, and suddenly hull resists become a workable last ditch line of defense, which a hull oriented logi MIGHT have a chance with. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
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