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"kitchensink" logi ship

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Kirluin 15	Posted - 2014.01.13 22:21:00 - [1] - Quote In my part of the world small kitchensink (mixed armor and shield tanks) fleets are very common for roams/defense. Basically whoever's logged on shows up in whatever ship is handy. There are almost never logi ships in these fleets, probably because that kind of collection drives most logi pilots nuts. These fleets are fun to run with though when you just want to raise hell for a bit. An idea to support this is a T1 logi ship with range bonuses to both armor and shield rep range (but not rep amount / cap use). It would have less rep power in either than a dedicated t1 variant, but would be useful in a junkyard fleet. Possibly an ORE ship since you wouldn't really need racial variants. A quick search didn't show anything on this, apologies if it's a retread.
TehCloud Mastercard. 191	Posted - 2014.01.13 22:52:00 - [2] - Quote Yeah sure, lets make a ship that works best with unorganized groups. Why support people that actually prepare for fights. My Condor costs less than that module!
Nikk Narrel Moonlit Bonsai 3878	Posted - 2014.01.13 22:59:00 - [3] - Quote TehCloud wrote: Yeah sure, lets make a ship that works best with unorganized groups. Why support people that actually prepare for fights. I feel a need to inject my own opinion here, since I believe that actually, it may not be such a terrible idea. Many are unorganized simply because they are out of touch with the advantages being organized offers. To have functioning logi at all, dictates a role within the fleet for support. To have it capable of supporting either armor or shield as needed means it would be recognizable as a benefit to both sides of the player group. Once they grasp the value, they can also take the next steps, and become even more organized. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
HiddenPorpoise BG-1 The Craniac 148	Posted - 2014.01.13 23:03:00 - [4] - Quote The logi still needs to pick a type which negates the whole advantage they'd have.
Nikk Narrel Moonlit Bonsai 3878	Posted - 2014.01.13 23:10:00 - [5] - Quote HiddenPorpoise wrote: The logi still needs to pick a type which negates the whole advantage they'd have. Not really, it can split itself between two types, if the bonuses were right. Yes, it would have a diminished impact compared to a dedicated version, but it could still swing the outcome of a battle. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 901	Posted - 2014.01.13 23:24:00 - [6] - Quote Or the FC can just say 'Armour in this fleet, Shield in that Fleet' and have two FC's that work together. And logi split appropriately. Or just learn to not kitchen sink. Live Events normally manage to split to Armour & Shield fleets (That I'd still consider kitchen sink due to lack of doctrines)
Kirluin 16	Posted - 2014.01.13 23:32:00 - [7] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Or the FC can just say 'Armour in this fleet, Shield in that Fleet' and have two FC's that work together. And logi split appropriately. Or just learn to not kitchen sink. Live Events normally manage to split to Armour & Shield fleets (That I'd still consider kitchen sink due to lack of doctrines) Over the past few years I've noticed that the reason for kitchensink fleets has been simple availability of logged in personnel, not a misunderstanding of how to organize. Yes good fleet doctrine setups are best (and should continue to be so), however I've seen a lot of "hey who's logged on? grab whatever ship and lets have fun for 45 minutes until it's time to (insert RL chore)" fleets. There's not two fleets or FCs, and there's not two logi pilots available. As a fan of running logi I'd like to have a ship option for that role. I've known a lot of players who don't have divergent skills / already fitted ships handy but do want to PVP in the moment, they're the ones who jump into these roams. Are pick up fleets not common elsewhere?
Nariya Kentaya Always Negative 994	Posted - 2014.01.14 01:27:00 - [8] - Quote Kirluin wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Or the FC can just say 'Armour in this fleet, Shield in that Fleet' and have two FC's that work together. And logi split appropriately. Or just learn to not kitchen sink. Live Events normally manage to split to Armour & Shield fleets (That I'd still consider kitchen sink due to lack of doctrines) Over the past few years I've noticed that the reason for kitchensink fleets has been simple availability of logged in personnel, not a misunderstanding of how to organize. Yes good fleet doctrine setups are best (and should continue to be so), however I've seen a lot of "hey who's logged on? grab whatever ship and lets have fun for 45 minutes until it's time to (insert RL chore)" fleets. There's not two fleets or FCs, and there's not two logi pilots available. As a fan of running logi I'd like to have a ship option for that role. I've known a lot of players who don't have divergent skills / already fitted ships handy but do want to PVP in the moment, they're the ones who jump into these roams. Are pick up fleets not common elsewhere? they just dont want anything to be viable outside the super-niche specific doctrine fleets. hoenstly, it aint that abdof an idea, a logi thats only partially bonused because it gets half the bonus for armor, half for shield, isnt that bad. Fact is, a kitchensink fleet will NEVER overpower a doctrine-fleet, even with this new logi, however it would allow a kitchen sink fleet to actually have a relevant chance of inflicting damage. this doesnt negate or infringe upon anyone's beloved "doctrines", just makes a previously unviable choice for a fleet, somewhat viable.
Dolorous Tremmens The Scope Gallente Federation 61	Posted - 2014.01.14 01:40:00 - [9] - Quote Maybe a sisters of eve logi ship? can fit something of everything if needed, has modest bonuses for everything, and is good till you see that specialization is better Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Sarah Stallman International Unification 108	Posted - 2014.01.14 01:45:00 - [10] - Quote I support this idea because it increases options without reducing the effectiveness of any existing options. I'd propose it be SOE rather than ORE, as it fits neatly in the current theme of long-range, general purpose ships the Astero and Stratios provide. Obviously, the actual rep bonuses would be inferior to one that specializes but having some bonus to both would be nice.
Iyacia Cyric'ai Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 91	Posted - 2014.01.14 03:00:00 - [11] - Quote Unless this kitchen sink fleet involves dual tanked people, I don't see anyone wanting to fly a a kitchensink logi ship. If it's a small gang, just fit local reps. If it's a large gang well then you're probably better off with both shield and armor logi ships rather than a ship with a mix. The most dual repping I ever do is have some armor rep drones in my scimitar/scythe to rep up any armor damage between battles.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 349	Posted - 2014.01.14 03:02:00 - [12] - Quote a player can ask what ships are needed when joining fleet.? real basic stuff, "hey fc, I know you have the fleet announcement with types wanted but any ship you'd like to see but aren't getting enough of?" I found even with a fleet annoucement set in stone many fc's would say sure, need this or that since the turnout so good we can use some side stuff to spice things up. Cases like this, the FC was jsut shocked as hell he got good turnout most times I found. The basic fleet list was basic since he didn't even think he'd get enough say armour BS on the field to start. 20 rokhs want to show up as extra (not like pure caldari pilots can bring a decent armour tanker to the party and more guns usually a good thing)....many a smart fc would gladly take the offer of shield logi or 2 to cover them.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 902	Posted - 2014.01.14 03:06:00 - [13] - Quote "Hey guys, Armour roam in 45 minutes for lolz, any size, any range" Oh look, no need for dual logi ships now..... I just don't think any real need is served by making a dual logi ship other than pure laziness. It's not hard to call for an armour or shield fleet, then anyone flying the wrong doctrine knows they won't get much from logi. It's not exactly a super niche null fleet at that point. That would be "Hey guys, 1400 Mael fleet with corp fittings forming in 45 minutes, Guardian Logi only, make sure you meet corp skill requirements or you won't be eligible for SRP"
Sarah Stallman International Unification 108	Posted - 2014.01.14 03:32:00 - [14] - Quote And yet, the existence of a dual logi ship does not subtract from the experience you describe. It adds play options without negatively effecting any that already exist. That alone makes it a good idea.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 902	Posted - 2014.01.14 03:36:00 - [15] - Quote Sarah Stallman wrote: And yet, the existence of a dual logi ship does not subtract from the experience you describe. It adds play options without negatively effecting any that already exist. That alone makes it a good idea. No, it makes it a terrible idea, because it makes an almost never used ship. Which is a waste of resources both in creating the ship and in the future balancing the ship every single balance pass. Never used ships simply should not exist, every ship should have a clear and common use. Small kitchen sink fleets not large enough to have dedicated split shield & armour logi aren't one of those 'common' uses.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 349	Posted - 2014.01.14 04:11:00 - [16] - Quote Sarah Stallman wrote: And yet, the existence of a dual logi ship does not subtract from the experience you describe. It adds play options without negatively effecting any that already exist. That alone makes it a good idea. logisitcs is a fleet force multiplier. It should be one of those things that needs to be chosen. If chosen well, things go much better for fleet. If not chosen well, things may not go so well for fleet. There is no need to dumb down eve. This is not rocket science. tons of shield, shield log. tons of armour, armour logi. Mixed fleet bring both. Or if both not around, well then some people aren't getting reps. Life goes on. I remember being the few rokhs in a sea of amour bs'. YOu acccepted you are not getting repsand jsut rolled with it. Hint for shield tankers: warp out and let regen take effect, if you can anyway.
Nariya Kentaya Always Negative 995	Posted - 2014.01.14 06:36:00 - [17] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Sarah Stallman wrote: And yet, the existence of a dual logi ship does not subtract from the experience you describe. It adds play options without negatively effecting any that already exist. That alone makes it a good idea. No, it makes it a terrible idea, because it makes an almost never used ship. Which is a waste of resources both in creating the ship and in the future balancing the ship every single balance pass. Never used ships simply should not exist, every ship should have a clear and common use. Small kitchen sink fleets not large enough to have dedicated split shield & armour logi aren't one of those 'common' uses. clear and common huh? tell that to the recently rebalanced marauders, CCP wanted them to be multipurpose. or hell, their general idea for T3's was to be able to "fulfill MULTIPLE battlefield roles at once, but perform in each of them at sub-T2 levels"
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar Minmatar Expeditions ltd. 43	Posted - 2014.01.14 12:42:00 - [18] - Quote I do not understand why people oppose anything they personally do not use. Having more options to choose from is ALWAYS good. Obviously you won't be using this, while people around the op could use it more often. Just because you think it's not effective to run such fleet does not mean someone else doesn't have fun with it. The game is not about having perfect strategies and tactics and the best organisation. It's about having fun. And that your fleet will take the other to breakfast? Who cares. Not everyone is in a corp/alliance where calling start of roam in 30 minutes would fill every spot with the exact fit for the fleet. Someone just want to have fun with what they can scramble. And they would have even more fun with the above proposed ship. As for balancing this one. It's not rocket science. CCP knows how to balance a ship like this would not be a big deal. you take your average logi for the basic attributes like speed/tank and make it worse in repairing armor and shield worse then specialized ship.. Just my 2 cents. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." --á Arthur C. Clarke
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 644	Posted - 2014.01.14 13:35:00 - [19] - Quote I can't see any reason for this not to be added as long as it's not as effective as it's dedicated counterparts. +1
Nikk Narrel Moonlit Bonsai 3879	Posted - 2014.01.14 14:10:00 - [20] - Quote Tinukeda'ya Naskingar wrote: I do not understand why people oppose anything they personally do not use. Having more options to choose from is ALWAYS good. Obviously you won't be using this, while people around the op could use it more often. Just because you think it's not effective to run such fleet does not mean someone else doesn't have fun with it. The game is not about having perfect strategies and tactics and the best organisation. It's about having fun. And that your fleet will take the other to breakfast? Who cares. Not everyone is in a corp/alliance where calling start of roam in 30 minutes would fill every spot with the exact fit for the fleet. Someone just want to have fun with what they can scramble. And they would have even more fun with the above proposed ship. As for balancing this one. It's not rocket science. CCP knows how to balance a ship like this would not be a big deal. you take your average logi for the basic attributes like speed/tank and make it worse in repairing armor and shield worse then specialized ship.. Just my 2 cents. THIS it's not about doing things right, or for maximum efficiency. Heck, the entire concept of right / correct fittings is an OPINION, based on what is at best the perception of what is most efficient. That has little to nothing to do with fun. Some of us want to just have fun, not compare excel sheets... Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Gawain Edmond Angry Mustellid 34	Posted - 2014.01.14 14:14:00 - [21] - Quote or instead of having shield and armor bonuses on the same ship just make them rep hull instead!!
Nikk Narrel Moonlit Bonsai 3880	Posted - 2014.01.14 14:54:00 - [22] - Quote Gawain Edmond wrote: or instead of having shield and armor bonuses on the same ship just make them rep hull instead!! This is somewhere between genius and insane. Real men hull tank!!! Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Seranova Farreach 600	Posted - 2014.01.14 15:21:00 - [23] - Quote Dolorous Tremmens wrote: Maybe a sisters of eve logi ship? can fit something of everything if needed, has modest bonuses for everything, and is good till you see that specialization is better pirate logi could work. gets bonus to all roles a logi normally does but only 1/2 the bonus? _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
Seranova Farreach 600	Posted - 2014.01.14 15:22:00 - [24] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: Gawain Edmond wrote: or instead of having shield and armor bonuses on the same ship just make them rep hull instead!! This is somewhere between genius and insane. Real men hull tank!!! if hull repper moduals worked like remote and normal armor reppers we would see EVERY ONE!!!! hull tanking. i think CCP shoudl try it and see how it goes on SISI and also make ancillary varient too! :P _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
Kirluin 21	Posted - 2014.01.14 15:49:00 - [25] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: Gawain Edmond wrote: or instead of having shield and armor bonuses on the same ship just make them rep hull instead!! This is somewhere between genius and insane. Real men hull tank!!! Hah,I honestly can't tell which! To put a little perspective on this idea, here's the (relatively common) situation that led to it. Rolling up a pickup gang, all armor and I've already decided to fly my augoror because that's what I want to do before the wife gets home, and that's the ship that's here (I'm new to logi and loving it). Another guy shows up and of course all he has handy is a shield ship but we're already scrambling. I could have told him to stay docked and do nothing. Instead I said screw it come out and play, we're all probably going to die anyway. He was ok with that, bless his bloodthirsty noob heart. So he runs with us and on a few occasions I would have done just about anything for a shield rep. Now I know why logi pilots never run with these fleets. I racked up a few more hero logi points (saaaved from 59 structure left!) and we won the day. But I do wish I had a better tool for the job.
Batelle Komm susser Tod 1228	Posted - 2014.01.14 16:02:00 - [26] - Quote If you're bringing both armor and shield in your kitchen sink fleet, I would assume you would get both armor and shield logi. Also, its not like shield reps don't help armor ships, or armor reps help shield ships, especially in a small gang situation. If its that much of a heartbreaker, fly a shield repping ship, or tell your shield tankers to fit damage controls so you can armor rep them while they die. If you bring a mixed fleet that means effective logi is not a priority for you. So what's the problem? Also, there are logi ships that rep both effectively, and at the same time. Those ships are the archon and nidhoggur. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!" Never forget.
Nikk Narrel Moonlit Bonsai 3882	Posted - 2014.01.14 16:15:00 - [27] - Quote Batelle wrote: If you're bringing both armor and shield in your kitchen sink fleet, I would assume you would get both armor and shield logi. Also, its not like shield reps don't help armor ships, or armor reps help shield ships, especially in a small gang situation. If its that much of a heartbreaker, fly a shield repping ship, or tell your shield tankers to fit damage controls so you can armor rep them while they die. If you bring a mixed fleet that means effective logi is not a priority for you. So what's the problem? Also, there are logi ships that rep both effectively, and at the same time. Those ships are the archon and nidhoggur. If you had the resources needed to pull a capital into the mix, it is doubtful you would also be unable to have a unified defense posture rather than mixing armor and shield. The key element of a "kitchen sink" fleet is the lack of time and / or significant options, so that if you did have one logi pilot, they would have to choose between two equally needed support positions. With either hull repping support, or reduced function with both armor and shield repping, you put these rag tag fleets back into consideration for fun without needing as much blind good fortune. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Notorious Fellon Republic University Minmatar Republic 102	Posted - 2014.01.14 16:26:00 - [28] - Quote I love how the bittervets assume all players have fully trained armor, shields, hull tanking and herofits. Wake up people, in small roams you may have newer players (or at least newer pilots) that only have one type of defense trained or maybe even only one racial type trained gasp A flexible (but less capable) logi is a good idea. For once, try to imagine a game with a healthy influx of new players. Maybe then one day more of them will stick around before being chased off by asshattery.
Clementina Coreli Corporation 121	Posted - 2014.01.15 03:59:00 - [29] - Quote The problem that I'm seeing is that a mixed shield/armor logistics would be harder to fly than a single repair type logistics, since you would have to choose what to repair someone with instead of just sending reps their way once they broadcast for it/yell on TS/start taking damage. I think you can do what you want to do already. Have two squads. One for shield tankers and one for armor tankers. Have two logistics cruiser pilots. One in an Exequror and one in a Scythe. The Exequror should repair armor and try to tank shield and the Scythe repair shield and tank armor. The Exequror pilot should put the Scythe and the Armor squad on their watch list and the Scythe should put the shield squad and the Exequror on their watch list. If you can fill more than two squads you need to implement some doctrine. At least enough doctrine to decide what the fleet is tanking.
Sarah Stallman International Unification 110	Posted - 2014.01.15 04:09:00 - [30] - Quote It really wouldn't be all that much harder. If the bonuses were something simple, like just a range/cap cost bonus then they just need to be able to identify what type of tank each ship has at a glance. Turns into logi flashcards. Megathron -> Armor, Merlin -> Shield, etc.

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