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Locke DieDrake
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Posted - 2006.03.22 16:10:00 -
[1]
As an allaince we have alot of BMs. And I'd rather not have 10,000 BMs in my folders at all times. But in order to copy a set (say, 300 ish) it takes hours. And it's not like you can do it while you rat or mine, this is hours of eve time stuck sitting at a safe spot copying bookmarks.
WTF? Is there a reason this needs to be the single slowest most tedious action in this game?
I don't understand. Is there some trick to this that I'm not understading? Or is it just intentionally hard and time consuming?
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The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
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M00dy
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Posted - 2006.03.22 16:12:00 -
[2]
It's intentional.
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Nee'kita Frist
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Posted - 2006.03.22 16:24:00 -
[3]
Its to discourage people from doing 5 gazillion BMs at once
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I'm just bitter |
Mitchman
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Posted - 2006.03.22 16:32:00 -
[4]
If this is intentional, it's the most silly nerf I've ever heard of.
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Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2006.03.22 16:37:00 -
[5]
ya remove em, simple as that.
it will solve other issues as well, I swear 
Greetings Grim |
prsr
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Posted - 2006.03.22 16:42:00 -
[6]
Edited by: prsr on 22/03/2006 16:43:40
It's a server load thing, at least thats the argument that gets used a lot when discussing BM's. Last thing I heard was there's a hard limit set on copying them, max= 1 BM per second now although I doubt you'll ever go that fast anyway. Best time to copy is probably when there's not many people online.
Apparently copying coordinates is hard on some machine somewhere in the chain from proxy to ramsan.
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Tarminic
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Posted - 2006.03.22 16:44:00 -
[7]
It's probably because copying coordinates means copying a bunch of floating point numbers and since most people who copy large amounts of bookmarks are copying instas it's given an extra-low priority on the servers since they're looked down upon by the devs anyway. So...well...deal with it. I don't use instas, so I never have to worry about copying loads of bookmarks.
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Reah
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Posted - 2006.03.22 17:21:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Reah on 22/03/2006 17:20:57
:|
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Mercade
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Posted - 2006.03.22 17:26:00 -
[9]
The universe is one giant 3 dimensional space. Systems are not boundaries or zones like in a conventional MMO. As far as can be told your location is not tied to the label of a system, that seems to be transfered via the coding involved in jumping. But theoretically you could fly into another system without using a gate.
I know this because at one point you could make a bookmark that was beyond the edges of the universe and warp there continuously. The interesting part was that you stayed in that system yet the map (f10) showed the "you are here" moving across blank space relative to where you were. And I've heard of people doing that crossing into other regions.
Though the likelihood of you being aligned to, even using that exploit, cross into another system is a trillion to one odds.
The point is that bookmarks are 3dimensional coordinates XYZ in a cubical (Assuming) area of space that has the precision of a single meter but the dimensions of lightyears. That would be the same as charting exact atomic locations of a single atom in your body in refrence to any other on this planet.
If you think that 100k users using numbers of that immensity on a common basis, and having it propogated into database entries over and over again (when you copy a BM you create a new thing in the computer refrence) should be instantaneous then you forget that this game isn't BM's online. And thankfully the servers try and focus on other stuff. Like dynamic Veldspar attrition and stuff.
 Originally by: kieron
...possible causes for an extended downtime, I think playing WoW would be close to the bottom of the list, probably between shaving cats and having dental work done w/o anethesia.
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alpheon
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Posted - 2006.03.22 19:35:00 -
[10]
Each time you copy a BM, its a database transaction.
The data for the BM is not stored on your local system, and the values of the coordinates in the BM are very large.
Combined with 20k+ users interacting with the DB every time they jump/dock/fire a weapon/empty a loot can....
moving 100bm's quickly isn't high on the list of priority transactions for the DB.
Combined with the fact that the DEV's hate instas.... I doubt they'll get around to making it better any time soon.
All that being said, and I agree, instas suck...I wish it was easier to trigger a copy, even if I have to wait 15 minutes for them to actually copy.
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Reiisha
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Posted - 2006.03.22 19:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
As an allaince we have alot of BMs. And I'd rather not have 10,000 BMs in my folders at all times. But in order to copy a set (say, 300 ish) it takes hours. And it's not like you can do it while you rat or mine, this is hours of eve time stuck sitting at a safe spot copying bookmarks.
WTF? Is there a reason this needs to be the single slowest most tedious action in this game?
I don't understand. Is there some trick to this that I'm not understading? Or is it just intentionally hard and time consuming?
You, my friend, should quit EVE.
Bcause YOU are the reason why it's lagging so much at times... Do you even know how much strain this puts on the server?
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Mercade
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Posted - 2006.03.22 19:45:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
As an allaince we have alot of BMs. And I'd rather not have 10,000 BMs in my folders at all times. But in order to copy a set (say, 300 ish) it takes hours. And it's not like you can do it while you rat or mine, this is hours of eve time stuck sitting at a safe spot copying bookmarks.
WTF? Is there a reason this needs to be the single slowest most tedious action in this game?
I don't understand. Is there some trick to this that I'm not understading? Or is it just intentionally hard and time consuming?
You, my friend, should quit EVE.
Bcause YOU are the reason why it's lagging so much at times... Do you even know how much strain this puts on the server?
I was inspired by someone's post the other day saying they refuse unless badgered by their corp, to use bookmarks. I think I might just give that a try. Bookmarks suck so much I wouldn't mind being forced to do things more challengingly and putting more thought into any low sec movements I make.
Originally by: kieron
...possible causes for an extended downtime, I think playing WoW would be close to the bottom of the list, probably between shaving cats and having dental work done w/o anethesia. |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.03.22 19:52:00 -
[13]
personally, as long as instas exist, i'll use them. they make me live MUCH better
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Stop spamming with "QFT" >:|. - Teblin
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JamesTalon
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Posted - 2006.03.22 20:07:00 -
[14]
I only use instas for the system I work in. I frequently do 12 jump runs in a slow ship, even though it is in empire, I have never really cared for instas to make it quicker. My alt always has a set of the bms I use, but I don't often give them to other people.
http://caldarisurplus.2myip.net
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Brutor Shaun
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Posted - 2006.03.22 20:17:00 -
[15]
If instas are so ebil, and the devs don't like them please go to this Linkage , scroll down to "Setting Bookmarks", and explain why this is here.
They're part of the game....deal with it.
Please check the forum rules regarding signatures, as they must be eve related. And don't discuss moderation. - Laqum |
Mercade
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Posted - 2006.03.22 20:17:00 -
[16]
Originally by: JamesTalon
I only use instas for the system I work in. I frequently do 12 jump runs in a slow ship, even though it is in empire, I have never really cared for instas to make it quicker. My alt always has a set of the bms I use, but I don't often give them to other people.
Technically you can do the vast majority of meaningful things without them right?
Get through low sec space:
Frigate/Interceptor +MWD
Transport small m3 high value goods:
Covert Ops +scout
Transport mid m3 high value goods:
Trasport ship + scout.
Fit cloaks if you need to be able to lay low for awhile and if you can't run for the gate, then fit to fight and enjoy the fun.
The only reason Instas are called a must by so many, is in my mind because people have tasted low risk travel regardless of their ship fitting, and having tasted it refuse to give it up.
Having personally made a few offered solutions that are easy and reasonable, I hope to see something happen in the near to future to replace them, (replace not eliminate)
Originally by: kieron
...possible causes for an extended downtime, I think playing WoW would be close to the bottom of the list, probably between shaving cats and having dental work done w/o anethesia. |
Naevius
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Posted - 2006.03.22 20:18:00 -
[17]
The coordinates for BMs may be large numbers, but the bytes used to store a very large floating point number in a database is nothing compared to even a short string of characters, especially unicode chars. So I doubt there's a real 'resource' reason for it...
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Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform. - Mark Twain |
Mitchman
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Posted - 2006.03.23 00:26:00 -
[18]
Now, if BM copying was implemented half-way decent, they could be copied instantaniously on the client, then sent to the server, then it would be a single transaction in the DB. Nerfing is trying to fix the syndrom, not the problem.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.23 00:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Grim Vandal
ya remove em, simple as that.
it will solve other issues as well, I swear
Yes, this silly thing called "players"
Lifewire> 8000 m/s, even battleships can do this |
Jinx Barker
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Posted - 2006.03.23 00:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mitchman
Now, if BM copying was implemented half-way decent, they could be copied instantaniously on the client, then sent to the server, then it would be a single transaction in the DB. Nerfing is trying to fix the syndrom, not the problem.
I agree, why not make the client CPU power copy the Bms? I dont know too much about how this whole things work, however it sounds perfectly logical.
Also, why not make teh BMs client-side, period? Is it even possible?
so far BM's have made my life fairly bearable in many respects. There is allot of ambivalence torward them in general, I understand that, however, we still have love/hate thing going with them.
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Oriana Fallaci
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Posted - 2006.03.23 00:45:00 -
[21]
Instas are a horrible and ugly system.
I hope CCP just forget to put fixing them on the drawing board, and did
not intentionally scrap them.
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Gary Goat
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Posted - 2006.03.23 01:52:00 -
[22]
Wasnt it changed because people were using the bm's to create a lot of lag when an enemy fleet was jumping in? I thought they made them take much longer to copy because of that.
Devs please read |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.23 02:16:00 -
[23]
Nope, they just bumped BM creation priority down.
Lifewire> 8000 m/s, even battleships can do this |
Breed Love
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Posted - 2006.03.23 03:24:00 -
[24]
ye do know that if you relog before copying instas back into ze can/shuttle they copy mucho faster? A 1000bm set can easily be done in less than 20 minutes.
------ Originally by: Gariuys
Breed Love for president.
Originally by: Cipher Khadaffi
nerf breed love!
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HUGO DRAX
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Posted - 2006.03.23 04:26:00 -
[25]
I bet a large load on EvE is all these BMs and the copying of them etc..
Dont just complain, do something. Channel macrointel meet with likeminded folks, spottings,intel |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.03.23 07:03:00 -
[26]
There is an obvious solution to this - just store bookmarks for entire corp or alliance. Create a role "Navigation Officer", which will manage them all, once for all the corp. Which drastically reduces copying.
But CCP is unlikely to implement this because they hate insta bookmarks :(
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Brutor Shaun
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Posted - 2006.03.23 07:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
There is an obvious solution to this - just store bookmarks for entire corp or alliance. Create a role "Navigation Officer", which will manage them all, once for all the corp. Which drastically reduces copying.
But CCP is unlikely to implement this because they hate insta bookmarks :(
I say YET AGAIN!!! If CCP/Devs hate instas sooooo much, then please go to this Linkage, scroll down to "Setting Bookmarks", and explain why this is here.
Please check the forum rules regarding signatures, as they must be eve related. And don't discuss moderation. - Laqum |
Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2006.03.23 08:18:00 -
[28]
i have more then 10k bms, most stored in containers, but still.
its always been a pain to copy bms, but u have to have bms, otherwise ur easy prey, slow down ur fleet and with the interdictor now also ceptors do have to have em.
but, id rather have a 2km warp to for celestial objects, then bms :/
-
Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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nmwone
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Posted - 2006.03.23 09:25:00 -
[29]
They did change the speed of copying bms with RMR. Prior to it, it was possible to copy them atleast. Its possible today to, but you have to do it in small batches and it takes a bit longer. Today you can also send bms by evemail, but only six at the time and it seems to be a bit bugged to.
I will continue using bms and aquiring all of those I need cause my enemy will/might have them. Aslong as they exists Iam going to want the same edge as everyone else have/could have. Though I would not be sorry to see instas go fully. It would make eve a bit bigger and people that are not lazy can adapt. I agree that if they did go, some alternative would be needed, especially in empire space. Zero dot zero however would be more interesting without bookmarks. I dont know fully how it would play out, but it would be interesting, not game breaking.
Though instas being cut from game seems unlikely, I guess I can hold my thumbs. I do however suggest this one thing that could maybe ease the server. Create two new roles for corp, (one allready mentioned) Navigation officer and a Navigation pilot. Navigation officers can create bookmarks for corp and manage them and navigation pilots can use them. This means that there will be another "places" which a Navigation Officer could store bookmarks and pilots use them. These bookmarks can ONLY be created, not copied in and not copied out. Hence bought bms of escrow can't be placed here, allready existing bookmarks anywhere can't be copied in here.
Any corp allready want all their pilots to have the instas, so this would not really be overpowered. This would just reduce copying of bms a lot. These bookmarks are tied to the corp and not to a person. So if corps disbands, so does the bookmarks. Also keep a limit on this "corp places" so you cant have every gate to every gate in eve. Say 2k bms maximum, it covers most routes, or just a few regions with every gate to every gate. With this, toy with the idea of getting rid of copying bms fully, even your own. If you want them do them yourself. This could also lead to a new more legit bookmark creator profession where a corp hire someone or few to join up and create bookmarks for said corp.
Anyway, just an idea.
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BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.03.23 09:32:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mercade
Originally by: JamesTalon
I only use instas for the system I work in. I frequently do 12 jump runs in a slow ship, even though it is in empire, I have never really cared for instas to make it quicker. My alt always has a set of the bms I use, but I don't often give them to other people.
Technically you can do the vast majority of meaningful things without them right?
Get through low sec space:
Frigate/Interceptor +MWD
Transport small m3 high value goods:
Covert Ops +scout
Transport mid m3 high value goods:
Trasport ship + scout.
Fit cloaks if you need to be able to lay low for awhile and if you can't run for the gate, then fit to fight and enjoy the fun.
The only reason Instas are called a must by so many, is in my mind because people have tasted low risk travel regardless of their ship fitting, and having tasted it refuse to give it up.
Having personally made a few offered solutions that are easy and reasonable, I hope to see something happen in the near to future to replace them, (replace not eliminate)
Pleeeeaassee. Transport ship going through a gate camp without instas incoming = dead, without instas/waypoints in system = dead. With instas = a chance to survive.
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