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Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.23 09:59:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: BurnHard
Pleeeeaassee. Transport ship going through a gate camp without instas incoming = dead, without instas/waypoints in system = dead. With instas = a chance to survive.
And they should survive why exactly?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
nmwone
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Posted - 2006.03.23 10:35:00 -
[32]
Originally by: BurnHard
Pleeeeaassee. Transport ship going through a gate camp without instas incoming = dead, without instas/waypoints in system = dead. With instas = a chance to survive.
What Avon said. Its not a given right to survive a bad situation you put yourself into. Use a scout.
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2006.03.23 10:56:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Vishnej on 23/03/2006 10:57:38
It's a pretty unfair + unsound way of doing it. The people with bookmarks already get a massive advantage.
Fix whatever makes bookmark copying so resource intensive(there's got to be more than just three high-precision floating point numbers moving around), and/or make bookmarks client side links to a server-side master database (which you can copy and distribute as simple files outside the game)
Or remove them. None of this in between "Now new players can copy bookmarks, but only x at a time, or they'll go crazy", and added in RMR "And wait an additional five seconds per bookmark before anything will copy at all"
Contribute to the Eve Wiki |
Melkor Bloodaxe
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Posted - 2006.03.23 11:18:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
There is an obvious solution to this - just store bookmarks for entire corp or alliance. Create a role "Navigation Officer", which will manage them all, once for all the corp. Which drastically reduces copying.
But CCP is unlikely to implement this because they hate insta bookmarks :(
I say YET AGAIN!!! If CCP/Devs hate instas sooooo much, then please go to this Linkage, scroll down to "Setting Bookmarks", and explain why this is here.
Very simple: Dev's hate all INSTA-bm's (gate2gate, station2gate etc) Bookmarks are for safespots and for mining folk to return to a nice spot in a belt, that kind of things. Not for traveling faster.
The Insta's get copied which are a huge load on server-cap.
---
49. Fares Hrym from the east / holding his shield
the Mithgard-Worm / in mighty rage
scatters the waves / screams the eagle
his nib tears the dead / Naglfar loosens.
[Voluspa] |
Za Po
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Posted - 2006.03.23 11:19:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Also, why not make teh BMs client-side, period?
Because if they did, I would be easily able to create instas for every spot in the whole universe, without going there first. You cannot trust the client.
They could solve this with the use of cryptography, allowing BM storage on the client. However, the devs seem to see the current BM system as a temporary solution while searching for a better idea; as such, they probably don't want to spend time propping it up.
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Do you have a solution to the BM and instas problem? Test it against the bookmark requirements. |
Turin
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Posted - 2006.03.23 19:12:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
As an allaince we have alot of BMs. And I'd rather not have 10,000 BMs in my folders at all times. But in order to copy a set (say, 300 ish) it takes hours. And it's not like you can do it while you rat or mine, this is hours of eve time stuck sitting at a safe spot copying bookmarks.
WTF? Is there a reason this needs to be the single slowest most tedious action in this game?
I don't understand. Is there some trick to this that I'm not understading? Or is it just intentionally hard and time consuming?
You, my friend, should quit EVE.
Bcause YOU are the reason why it's lagging so much at times... Do you even know how much strain this puts on the server?
Wow. I didnt realize there were people this arrogent in the game still..
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Brutor Shaun
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Posted - 2006.03.23 19:28:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Melkor Bloodaxe
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
There is an obvious solution to this - just store bookmarks for entire corp or alliance. Create a role "Navigation Officer", which will manage them all, once for all the corp. Which drastically reduces copying.
But CCP is unlikely to implement this because they hate insta bookmarks :(
I say YET AGAIN!!! If CCP/Devs hate instas sooooo much, then please go to this Linkage, scroll down to "Setting Bookmarks", and explain why this is here.
Very simple: Dev's hate all INSTA-bm's (gate2gate, station2gate etc) Bookmarks are for safespots and for mining folk to return to a nice spot in a belt, that kind of things. Not for traveling faster.
I take it you never went to the link and scrolled down? If you had you would have seen instructions, given out by CCP, on how to make instas!!
Please check the forum rules regarding signatures, as they must be eve related. And don't discuss moderation. - Laqum |
Prestis
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Posted - 2006.03.23 19:36:00 -
[38]
Because the (ab)use players put BMs to was never planned or foreseen by devs. They were put in as a way back to your ore can, not as an risk-free insta-teleportation system.
There was no reasonable expectation that another player would ever want thousands of someone elses bookmarks.
I don't see how people can complain to CCP that their exploit isn't working fast enough. 
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.23 19:37:00 -
[39]
Avon, beause player skill should actually..count?
Vishnej, gasp, yes, it's unfair that people who prepare to enter a region should have an advantage over people who plunge right in without doing any logistics or prep work. Oh wait...
Melkor Bloodaxe, there is no proof of that. A few devs have stated an issue with BOOKMARKS in general. You cannot selectively point at instas as being the issue...ALL BM's contribute to the lag, and all would have to go in a fix. Hope you didn't like 0.0.
Lifewire> 8000 m/s, even battleships can do this |
eddie valvetino
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:01:00 -
[40]
dude - BMs cause lag - copying them even more so, as 99.9% of all BMs are insta-gate or insta-dock, which is something they were never meant to be. I'm guessing that CCP put low importance on copying them. Which is fair paly if you ask me. Why should the whole universe lag cos you don't wanna lose your shuttle in 0.0?
While i agree it's annoying, why should everyone suffer so you can benefit?
i'm also guess that as soon as CCP find a way to remove them and not make traveling long distance an almighty ass pain then we'll prolly see the end to BMs.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:05:00 -
[41]
You mean "enter 0.0". Right.
Lifewire> 8000 m/s, even battleships can do this |
Kylania
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:10:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
I take it you never went to the link and scrolled down? If you had you would have seen instructions, given out by CCP, on how to make instas!!
You seem to be having trouble reading that page you keep referring everyone to. I don't see anything in there about "Make 10,000 bookmarks and share then instantly with hundreds of members of your alliance", or "Make 10,000 bookmarks to get through low-sec with no risk" or "CCP fully endorses bookmarks and you should make as many as you can regardless of the strain on the servers because we had a player write up some instructions for how to get back to your mining can faster and decided to host it along with many other suggestions in our Player Guide".
Did I miss that all or are you just totally confused and looking for something to justify a stupid amount of bookmarks?
--
Lil Miner |
Payne Bringer
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:19:00 -
[43]
Because you are supposed to make your own perhaps? |
Rellik B00n
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Posted - 2006.03.23 21:37:00 -
[44]
Originally by: HippoKing
personally, as long as instas exist, i'll use them. they make me live MUCH better
/signed
--------------------------------
So I assume everyone that wants instas removed would be happy if char attributes counted towards things like damage? Because thats something else that surely doesnt work as intended/hasnt been implemented?
Didnt think so.
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Tractor Drones!
I used to have a sig here but apparently the server cannot handle sigs bigger than a small pea |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.23 22:32:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 23/03/2006 22:32:57
Originally by: Payne Bringer
Because you are supposed to make your own perhaps?
Yes, because having 200 people being warped gate to gate for 2 weeks before they can fight in a region will make them unbored and not create lag.
Oh wait...
Lifewire> 8000 m/s, even battleships can do this |
Reiisha
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Posted - 2006.03.23 22:35:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
As an allaince we have alot of BMs. And I'd rather not have 10,000 BMs in my folders at all times. But in order to copy a set (say, 300 ish) it takes hours. And it's not like you can do it while you rat or mine, this is hours of eve time stuck sitting at a safe spot copying bookmarks.
WTF? Is there a reason this needs to be the single slowest most tedious action in this game?
I don't understand. Is there some trick to this that I'm not understading? Or is it just intentionally hard and time consuming?
You, my friend, should quit EVE.
Bcause YOU are the reason why it's lagging so much at times... Do you even know how much strain this puts on the server?
Wow. I didnt realize there were people this arrogent in the game still..
You try staying calm when yet another idiot is copying 3000 bm's in your system? Some people actually want to play the game.
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Sicariidae
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Posted - 2006.03.23 23:26:00 -
[47]
Just dont copy those in Jita/Hageken mkay? Im sure a GM would be in your face pretty quick, if they caught wind of that.
frankly I wish eve made more use of the scanner overview, even showing enemys on the overview and be able to do tatical work accordingly. Like a way to zoom in on system objects (planets and orbiting items, belts, gates etc.) and be able to get to a gate from any celestial body in the system within jumping range without a bookmark. If its coded right I think it would make a ton of database-bookmark related lag Vanish.
But im sure it would make the following people compain big time.
Pro gate campers, BookMark sellers, just about anyone thats doing the persuing.
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BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.03.23 23:29:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: BurnHard
Pleeeeaassee. Transport ship going through a gate camp without instas incoming = dead, without instas/waypoints in system = dead. With instas = a chance to survive.
And they should survive why exactly?
Okay, lets play the way Avon wants. No instas. You have to secure the pipe before moving anything larger than 130m3 by camping the gates all the way down, requiring the cooperation of hundreds of players. Yey! I vote Avon to organise the throbbing masses in this venture.
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Edgars Sults
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Posted - 2006.03.24 00:34:00 -
[49]
if it wasn't for instas, i would have probably gotten very annoyed with EVE some time ago. i don't want to waste my time waiting for that stupid slow ship to autopilot it's way. i want to play. and i don't want to lose my hard earned ship, equipment, money, cargo and implants to a stupid pirate constantly.
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Dukath
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Posted - 2006.03.24 07:17:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Edgars Sults
if it wasn't for instas, i would have probably gotten very annoyed with EVE some time ago. i don't want to waste my time waiting for that stupid slow ship to autopilot it's way. i want to play. and i don't want to lose my hard earned ship, equipment, money, cargo and implants to a stupid pirate constantly.
Why not, in stead of abusing bookmarks to get instas i don't know... refit your ship a bit to make it faster? I know its a strange concept to adapt to the game in stead of adapting the game to your playstyle. But anyway, you should try it.
PS: the fact that you are losing your ship, equipment, money, cargo and implants to pirates constantly has little to do with instas but more with a lack of skill. At least i assume it is since i don't use instas and have not been killed travelling in a long time. In fact i can't remember the last time i got killed during travel.
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Twilight Moon
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Posted - 2006.03.24 09:53:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
As an allaince we have alot of BMs. And I'd rather not have 10,000 BMs in my folders at all times. But in order to copy a set (say, 300 ish) it takes hours. And it's not like you can do it while you rat or mine, this is hours of eve time stuck sitting at a safe spot copying bookmarks.
WTF? Is there a reason this needs to be the single slowest most tedious action in this game?
I don't understand. Is there some trick to this that I'm not understading? Or is it just intentionally hard and time consuming?
Open Cargo Hold
Open Bookmarks Folder
Select Bookmarks you want copied
Shift - Drag bookmarks to Cargo Hold
Close Cargo hold and go belt rat/mine/bump into haulers for 10 mins.
Open Cargo Hold. Voila!
Select BM's, warp to SS, and Jettison them for *whoever you want* to pick up.
Now they have to sit there for 10 mins for the BM's in the can to show up....but at least its not yourself! 
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Sable Schroedinger
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Posted - 2006.03.24 10:51:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Originally by: Mitchman
Now, if BM copying was implemented half-way decent, they could be copied instantaniously on the client, then sent to the server, then it would be a single transaction in the DB. Nerfing is trying to fix the syndrom, not the problem.
I agree, why not make the client CPU power copy the Bms? I dont know too much about how this whole things work, however it sounds perfectly logical.
Also, why not make teh BMs client-side, period? Is it even possible?
so far BM's have made my life fairly bearable in many respects. There is allot of ambivalence torward them in general, I understand that, however, we still have love/hate thing going with them.
If you did this, you'd give the client access to the BMs and their co-ordinates and this would be exploitable
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Nothing is as cruel as the righteousness of innocents |
Sable Schroedinger
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Posted - 2006.03.24 11:10:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Vishnej
Edited by: Vishnej on 23/03/2006 10:57:38
It's a pretty unfair + unsound way of doing it. The people with bookmarks already get a massive advantage.
Fix whatever makes bookmark copying so resource intensive(there's got to be more than just three high-precision floating point numbers moving around), and/or make bookmarks client side links to a server-side master database (which you can copy and distribute as simple files outside the game)
Or remove them. None of this in between "Now new players can copy bookmarks, but only x at a time, or they'll go crazy", and added in RMR "And wait an additional five seconds per bookmark before anything will copy at all"
what makes it so resource intensive is the sheer number of BMs. Yes you can cut down the number of transactions, but the size of the table with the BMs in will be massively unstable and a complete resource hog to query. If every active player only has 3000 BMs (Some may have none, but many will have FAR more) thats 300,000,000 rows in a table. Now multiply that out to the number of old players that still have them stored, etc etc etc. Scared yet? The select query alone will be a nasty one. Then you've got any number of achitecture issues - for example, there could be a trigger on the table, thus requiring the use of a cursor insert
Just remember. If the devs never intended something to be used in the way its being used, the system may not have been built in a way to handle it. One of the hardest things to do in DB work is to change architecture after its gone live, the difficulty is multiplied by the amount of data involved. Just imagine if they said "yes you can have fast copying of BMs, but it means losing all the ones you have" 
personally, I'm against ones within 15km of a solid structure, otherwise I think they're great. For a fix, I would say - 15km warp bubble type effect around a gate or have you appear at a random 15km point around the BM point (in the same way as you do around a gate when you warp into a system). BUT! I do agree there is a need to deal with certain gate camping issues before this could be done. I believe that an insta locking sniper is just as broken as a insta BM. If lock times are linked to range and modules that boost one (range or speed) clash with another, then things should be a lot more balanced. Travellers will need scouts to get them around and snipers will need someone up close to hold them long enough to get a lock on them. Both sides need a friend in order to work properly (coincidentally that friend really needs to be in a fast (and so prolly small) ship, no one has an instant "I win" button. Fun and challenge for all
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Nothing is as cruel as the righteousness of innocents |
Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.24 11:11:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Avon, beause player skill should actually..count?
Absolutely.
However instas are not player skill, are they?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.24 11:12:00 -
[55]
Originally by: BurnHard
Okay, lets play the way Avon wants. No instas. You have to secure the pipe before moving anything larger than 130m3 by camping the gates all the way down, requiring the cooperation of hundreds of players. Yey! I vote Avon to organise the throbbing masses in this venture.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Burga Galti
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Posted - 2006.03.24 11:29:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Burga Galti on 24/03/2006 11:29:32
Originally by: BurnHard
Okay, lets play the way Avon wants. No instas. You have to secure the pipe before moving anything larger than 130m3 by camping the gates all the way down, requiring the cooperation of hundreds of players. Yey! I vote Avon to organise the throbbing masses in this venture.
Brains > Brawn.
I don't like bms either and would love to see the whole system scrubbed. If you need to be somewhere fast you can use a jumpclone.
-
Pain is a way of knowing yourself; Death is the ultimate in self-discovery.
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RoMUF
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Posted - 2006.03.24 11:32:00 -
[57]
I've got an idea! (doesn't happen too much)
How about making it a haulers skill to warp closer to a target if your in a freighter or indy. Like give the ship a warp thingie value and have the skill increase that value making the distance of warp closer to the gate or something.
Like when you have that skill lvl 5 you warp to 5km of the target. With an indy with a AB you're there in no time. A freighter would take longer since it's super slow. The rest of the ships are fast enough to take the trip to the gate from 15km.
Then you just have to limit the amount of BM's you can have (to say like 20 or something) for safespots and other things that where where the actual purpose of BM's.
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Twilight Moon
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Posted - 2006.03.24 11:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Burga Galti
Edited by: Burga Galti on 24/03/2006 11:29:32
Originally by: BurnHard
Okay, lets play the way Avon wants. No instas. You have to secure the pipe before moving anything larger than 130m3 by camping the gates all the way down, requiring the cooperation of hundreds of players. Yey! I vote Avon to organise the throbbing masses in this venture.
Brains > Brawn.
I don't like bms either and would love to see the whole system scrubbed. If you need to be somewhere fast you can use a jumpclone.
Oh great, cheers.
Seeing as I'm mostly in Empire still that mean all I have to do is get my corp to 8+ standings with whatever factions we need jump clones in, and have a stockpile of ships at all locations?
A meer nothing.
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Burga Galti
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Posted - 2006.03.24 11:47:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Burga Galti on 24/03/2006 11:54:32
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Oh great, cheers.
Seeing as I'm mostly in Empire still that mean all I have to do is get my corp to 8+ standings with whatever factions we need jump clones in, and have a stockpile of ships at all locations?
A meer nothing.
I'm a fan of tough love 
But seriously, there is a mechanic for fast travel and though the 8+ standing thing is slightly annoying there are ways and means.
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Pain is a way of knowing yourself; Death is the ultimate in self-discovery.
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BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.03.24 12:03:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Burga Galti
Edited by: Burga Galti on 24/03/2006 11:54:32
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Oh great, cheers.
Seeing as I'm mostly in Empire still that mean all I have to do is get my corp to 8+ standings with whatever factions we need jump clones in, and have a stockpile of ships at all locations?
A meer nothing.
I'm a fan of tough love
But seriously, there is a mechanic for fast travel and though the 8+ standing thing is slightly annoying there are ways and means.
Can I take 7 giant secures down from Empire to my 0.0 station with a Jump Clone? It's difficult enough with instas, turnarounds, a prototype cloak and a scout, without them it would be near impossible unless you fluke it and travel on a good day. So it's already hard and now you want to make it exponentially harder, seriously limiting movement to only fast frigates/covert ops or WCS ships - of which of course you probably also disagree.
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