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Crow - impossible to beat for a frig?

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SiLeNCel2	Posted - 2006.03.31 15:12:00 - [91] i once pwned one of those standard missile crows, i was flying a crow too: at first, he tried to gank me, and he almost did it! i only had an afterburner fitted, my hi-solts where 3x rox II and 1x nos. he was orbiting at 19km, scrambling me and firing his missiles. i had no chance, but i managed to get out of his scram range and warp before he could blast through my last 20% of armor, phew! i docked and fitted a mwd myself, repaired my ship and got back. this time, i was faster than his ship and managed to get into my rox and scrambler range - well, the dps of my rox then ruined his day i guess...
Natasha Starlight	Posted - 2006.03.31 16:14:00 - [92] Edited by: Natasha Starlight on 31/03/2006 16:17:09 Originally by: Mordocik Originally by: Max Teranous Testy, Are you certain the crow was using standard missiles? Because the increased explosion radius of precisions would make the maths work out to very similar to what you are saying. Maxed out damage per missile using Precision on Crow = 165 Maxed out Explosion velocity using Precision = 3000 * 1.5 = 4500m/s Therefore the Claw would be getting hit for full damage, both because of sig & speed: On shield (40% resist) = 165 * (1-0.4) = 99 On armour (25% resist) = 165 * (1-0.25) = 124 I can verify that with NORMAL missiles the damage testy confirmed is correct. The only explanation I can offer for why so many people feel that this damage shouldn't be happening but actually is, is because the stats in the various mathematic models floating around (the tutorial for example) is based on the ship moving in the opposite direction. It's a long shot I know but frankly thats the damage I'm taking in game from multiple tests. You can shout and scream about you should only be taking such and such damage from a missile under such and such circumstances, but its just not how its happening in game. Can I suggest pilot error. Try going in a straight line at 5km/s, the damage taken from a light missile is exactly as expected. When dogfighting an inty is rarely at top speed as it twists and turns to maintain its orbit; it is on these occasions that damage is increased. Skilled blasteranis pilots will wait for a volley of missiles to hit before trying the direction reverse trick else you run the danger of getting hit at low velocity with the MWD on - ouch! As for getting in web range it is possible to do so reliably even if you are 1km/s slower. The trick is not* to use approach, that will take you to where the Crow is now, you want to go to where the Crow is gonna be in a second or two (check out the tactical overlay). Tricky? Yes. Needs practice? Yes. But once there, dead Crow. * A MWD II inty at 85% speed is just not fast enough for significant explosion velocity reduction.
Nafri	Posted - 2006.03.31 16:29:00 - [93] Lecture: Only suiciders attack a crow alone Jawas are lousy carebears :(
Mordocik	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:39:00 - [94] Originally by: Natasha Starlight Can I suggest pilot error. Try going in a straight line at 5km/s, the damage taken from a light missile is exactly as expected. When dogfighting an inty is rarely at top speed as it twists and turns to maintain its orbit; it is on these occasions that damage is increased. Skilled blasteranis pilots will wait for a volley of missiles to hit before trying the direction reverse trick else you run the danger of getting hit at low velocity with the MWD on - ouch! You can suggest it, but I don't think any of the people in this thread are so noob as to talk about theoretical max speeds versus actual transversal speeds when in orbits. You'll note that the further out you are from the target in orbit the closer to your actual top speed you will get. Originally by:* Natasha Starlight As for getting in web range it is possible to do so reliably even if you are 1km/s slower. The trick is not to use approach, that will take you to where the Crow is now, you want to go to where the Crow is gonna be in a second or two (check out the tactical overlay). Tricky? Yes. Needs practice? Yes. But once there, dead Crow. Here is where I disagree. If someone has clicked "orbit at 18km" and is chasing you at say 19km distance, the second you try ANY kind of manouvre the game mechanics will immediately start taking you into counter manouvres to keep you at that distance. In your example, wait for the crow to fire missiles, then immediately start a 180 degree turn or a loop, the crow also immediately starts the exact opposite manouvre, thus keeping you at an identical distance. Again the assumption that you can also close to <10km for webbing a crow that is as fast or faster then you by definition RELIES on pilot error on the crows behalf. Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen? Sure. Would a semi talented pilot make the error? No. Even IF you do close to <10km you will be at that range for a second, if that. Meaning that you will have to be lucky to even activate the web before they are out of range again and you have to try the manouvre again. During which time you are getting hit every round by the missiles... Originally by: Natasha Starlight * A MWD II inty at 85% speed is just not fast enough for significant explosion velocity reduction. Thats a very vague statement. You're not taking into account navigation / accel control, implants all of which can change your base speed by well over 100%. I'm about to try putting in a full snake implant set to see if that makes a significant difference but i can say that at 5km transversal, i'm still getting wtfpwned by missiles.
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:41:00 - [95] Originally by: Nafri Lecture: Only suiciders attack a crow alone Na crows suck --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Shin Ra	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:47:00 - [96] Most crow pilots will simply click orbit and hope for the best. There is a lot of things you can do to get out of his scramble range. Manouver your ship, don't just hit approach. That being said, a good crow pilot with a 28k disruptor and snake implants is a pain to kill, even for a battleship.
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 10:50:00 - [97] tbh i dont think therre overpowered, a decent AF pilot should own a crow. There so predictable, they sit at the same ranges and do only one thing. never a problem --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Natasha Starlight	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:26:00 - [98] Edited by: Natasha Starlight on 04/04/2006 11:26:41 Emphasis mine. Originally by: Mordocik Here is where I disagree. If someone has clicked "orbit at 18km" and is chasing you at say 19km distance, the second you try ANY kind of manouvre the game mechanics will immediately start taking you into counter manouvres to keep you at that distance. In your example, wait for the crow to fire missiles, then immediately start a 180 degree turn or a loop, the crow also immediately starts the exact opposite manouvre, thus keeping you at an identical distance. No. Immediately it does not. Also Crow pilots without a faction disruptor won't orbit at 18km, far too hard to keep the target under 20km (and if they do you can always leave). They will orbit at around 15km, which will keep them between 12km-20km. At this distance you can consistently (with the techniques I described) get into web range. Now compare the armour and shield on a Crow to the other interceptors. Crow in web range without a plate is dead. I would suggest practicing the first 5 seconds of a fight, this is when the Crow is not in an established orbit and is very vulnerable. Originally by: Mordocik Again the assumption that you can also close to <10km for webbing a crow that is as fast or faster then you... Please refer to the post on the first page, a MWD Crow is about in the middle in terms of speed. A crusader for example is 200m/s faster. The Crow will have 2 or 3 CPRs on to maintain the MWD and 20km scram so you can fit a nano or two to further your advantage, not only that but you'll be more agile (meaning your game mechanics or manual maneuvers are more responisive). Now fit a repper or hardener to tank and you're golden. Originally by: Mordocik ...by definition RELIES on pilot error on the crows behalf. I think not. You disagree. Originally by: Mordocik Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen? Sure. Would a semi talented pilot make the error? No. Even IF you do close to <10km you will be at that range for a second, if that. Meaning that you will have to be lucky to even activate the web before they are out of range again and you have to try the manouvre again. So you are comparing talented Crow pilots to rubbish target pilots. Unfair. A good pilot will get the web on. Without wanting to put words in your mouth it sounds like you are having problems with Gistii MWD, Faction Disruptor, Snaked-up Crow pilots and are expecting to hurt them in a ceptor with T2 gear. Either that or you are too concerned with situation where the Crow isn't a threat, i.e. in wide orbits.
Nooey	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:48:00 - [99] Wow, so little mention of a Taranis as a counter... From fairly limited personal experience, a railranis with all the relevant skills (Sharpshooter, Traj. Analysis etc, Inty IV etc) does just fine against a long-range Crow. 125mm II's track wonderfully in combination with the ship bonuses and with a Mag Stab II and faction iridium* thrown in you get the dmg and range you need to have a chance. I dunno, that's just personal experience. As I said, limited, still learning the ins and outs of the railranis. Rocket Crows are my fav, Raptors for Long Range >_>;; *(Not exactly expensive, so I don't see any real strength to "Oh but faction cant enter the equation" arguments) ____
Boonaki	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:00:00 - [100] Anyone tried a micro/small cap injector on an inty for tech 2 cap killing missiles? Haven't jumped into an inty in a long while. Fear the Ibis of doom.
Cvuos	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:09:00 - [101] Sensor dampener baby. Crow has to either move within web range or leave.
Nooey	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:10:00 - [102] Originally by: Cvuos Sensor dampener baby. Crow has to either move within web range or leave. Mr Rocket Crow says hi2u. ____
Cvuos	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:12:00 - [103] Originally by: Nooey Mr Rocket Crow says hi2u. If you can reload modules mid-fight, I'll go with a Grav jammer.
Nomaz	Posted - 2006.04.04 15:24:00 - [104] Originally by: Nooey Originally by: Cvuos Mr Rocket Crow says hi2u. Rocket crows FTW :) hi: 1x nos 3xrocket II (rage ammo) med: 1x MWD 1x web 1x scram low: 1x BCU 1x CPR 1x damage control
Tousaka Langley	Posted - 2006.04.04 15:48:00 - [105] Quick Question - If ship a is chasing ship b at V1 and ship a fires missiles, are the velocity of ships a missiles giong to be Vo (the base velocity of the missile) or V0+V1 to reflect the missile firing from a moving platform?
MacDuncan	Posted - 2006.04.04 16:44:00 - [106] Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Nafri Lecture: Only suiciders attack a crow alone Na crows suck signed I would engage a crow EVERYTIME in a crusader w. dual light beams...it's really funny, how they melt away...;) --
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2006.04.04 17:39:00 - [107] Now I'm not saying its impossible to kill a good pilot flying a rocket plated crow. Rocket plated crows flown by a smart pilot are the worst thing you could 1v1 against... Those who say they owned a crow once with their {fill in the blank} aren't making much of a case. Because of its reputation, a lot of people who can't fly jump into crows and get killed by someone who will then think the crow is not that great a ship. Its no coincidence that crows are the most expensive inties on the market. Its been said a million times I can't believe people are still debating with the exact same subject matter, over and over again... Ison's notches
Halada	Posted - 2006.04.04 18:33:00 - [108] Originally by: Isonkon Serikain Now I'm not saying its impossible to kill a good pilot flying a rocket plated crow. Rocket plated crows flown by a smart pilot are the worst thing you could 1v1 against... What happens with a Taranis or a Claw that orbits at 16KM and is faster than you? You're toasted, especially since with your plate you're so slow ! My ''All you want to know about mining'' Guide
Zysco	Posted - 2006.04.04 18:35:00 - [109] Originally by: Halada Originally by: Isonkon Serikain Now I'm not saying its impossible to kill a good pilot flying a rocket plated crow. Rocket plated crows flown by a smart pilot are the worst thing you could 1v1 against... What happens with a Taranis or a Claw that orbits at 16KM and is faster than you? You're toasted, especially since with your plate you're so slow ! A taranis is not gonna be faster than a crow, even a plated one. And if a claw is orbiting you at 16km you just mwd towards the gate/station and dock/jump. www.eve-files.com/media/corp/onos/petincsig.JPG[/IMG] Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes
Halada	Posted - 2006.04.04 19:09:00 - [110] Originally by: Zysco Originally by: Halada Originally by: Isonkon Serikain Now I'm not saying its impossible to kill a good pilot flying a rocket plated crow. Rocket plated crows flown by a smart pilot are the worst thing you could 1v1 against... What happens with a Taranis or a Claw that orbits at 16KM and is faster than you? You're toasted, especially since with your plate you're so slow ! A taranis is not gonna be faster than a crow, even a plated one. And if a claw is orbiting you at 16km you just mwd towards the gate/station and dock/jump. Well with the agressive counter you might not be able to jump in time, and if the fight doesn't take place near a gate you'll be scrambled. I have no experience with a crow whatsoever, but I did read every posts (very interesting btw) and it seems to me that the long range crow with good missile skills i powerful and more versatile than the rocket plated crow, where it either omfgbbqpwn or must run away because the other ceptor has long range and will pound you from out of your rocket range but still scramble you. Thats what I got from this thread anyway My ''All you want to know about mining'' Guide
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.04.04 20:05:00 - [111] Hate to break it down for all you newbies but the crow is a good long range inty. That doesn't mean it's the only long range inty. If you can maintain your distance from your target (As the crow does) then any ship can do the same thing. This whole topic is void.
Karch	Posted - 2006.04.05 03:41:00 - [112] My rocket Kestrel that I sometimes use in PvP destroyed a Crow. ---------
Koris	Posted - 2006.04.06 06:55:00 - [113] Originally by: Cvuos Originally by: Nooey Mr Rocket Crow says hi2u. If you can reload modules mid-fight, I'll go with a Grav jammer.
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.04.06 07:36:00 - [114] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 27/03/2006 20:32:00 I hate long distance crows too but you forgot to point out something. Crow - 3 Launchers Raptor - 2 Launchers Claw - 2 Launchers Malediction - 2 Launchers Ares - 2 Launchers Using the OP original setup High - 3xStd Launchers II Medium - MWD, Warp Disruptor, Cap Booster/Battery Lows - Speed and Cap Power Relays vs Typical Std Claw High - 2xArby Std Launcher, 2x150mm AC II Medium - MWD II, Faint Warp Scram Lows - MAPC, 200mm Rolled, Small Armor Rep II, Adapt Nano II Who wins? Person sucking mad cap just from MWD/Disruptor or Claw tanking for his cap. I officially love Famine Aligher'ri Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild CAPS LOCK IS THE CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME
madaluap	Posted - 2006.04.06 09:30:00 - [115] Originally by: j0sephine "A long range crow cant fit a tank? News to me." What sort of tank do you imagine she can fit? ^^ small shieldbooster 2, killed a crow having 1. he got to close... _________________________________________________
Charles Tucker	Posted - 2006.04.06 11:01:00 - [116] Originally by: Mordocik Well I've been extensively pvping for the last couple of weeks in my inties and AF's. I've noticed a trend, that being that the one frigate I don't really have a hope of beating is the crow and I'm wondering if anyone else has the same problem. The issue is that a crow can setup with t2 standard missiles across its top slots (with t2 ammo as well), a 20km scrambler, mwd and either a small cap booster or even just a t2 small battery and fill the low slots with, say cap power relays. The result is an inty that flies very fast, normally faster then any other frig (partially due to the habit of most frigs flying with plates). What this means is that the crow can come in at say ~17km range and orbit you, scramble you and kill you and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Lets look at the problems from the crows perspective: * run out of cap due to using a 20km scrambler Probably the only really limiting fact for this kind of crow setup. However, with careful use of the scrambler or just boosting the cap with a cap booster running the scrambler the duration of a fight is fairly easy. * target tanks my dmg No problem, change missile and thus damage type * target is as fast as me No problem as if the target turns on their ab / mwd then your missiles will wtfpwn it in a volley or two due to the sig radius penalty. Even if it is as fast as you, and even if it doesn't die very quickly due to the sig radius problem, its still not going to get close enough to dmg you as it needs to go significantly FASTER then you in order to catch up, put a gistii mwd on (sorry people I hate to tell you its not that expensive for most serious gamers) and you become untouchable The problem as a non crow flyer is that the crow as a missile user doesn't have to slow down at all and can consequently dictate the distance the fight happens at. This means that unless you have a frig setup for long range damage AND you can track and hit an inty with >3.5km transversal (thats conservative most crows I fight have gistii's on them so are >5km trans) you have NO hope. Even if you have say a specialist frig setup for long range dmg you have to be able to hit the crow and do more dmg then the t2 missiles fired by t2 launchers, personally I've yet to see a FRIG setup that can hit the crow at that range and that speed consistantly let alone out dmg it to win the fight. The problem is compounded by the fact that the missiles ALWAYS hit and that trying to close the gap so that you can use short range weapons = almost insta death due to the sig radius penalty of using a propulsion enhancer. In summary i can see no way to beat a crow setup like I have described, at best I can come up with a couple of fittings on certain specific AF's that can fight the crow to a stalemate, sometimes. So what am I missing? or is the crow really the king of the frigs? oh an a pre-emptive note, I havn't died to a crow yet, I just can't see ANY way to beat them 1v1. You miss one point. All the stuff written here shows only the negative effects for not-crow pilot against crow with standard missiles (more signature with MWD on, ...). But if you have a speed setup with claw or something and switch MWD on you easily get speed far beyond 4km/s. At speed of 4km/s the light missiles of the crow will do around 4 (in words: four) damage per missile. And if the crow uses high precision it will be slow like a BS.
Korin Rath	Posted - 2006.09.29 17:41:00 - [117] This one time at band camp there was a guy who knew someone who took out a Crow..... :P Seriously though, great thread for us newer players. I know some of you veterans know all this already but some of us haven't read this 100 times yet and its great to see a newer thread on the subject. Training for Crow and practicing with a corpmate in Condors now in .3 and .2 Talk about a challenge, but you learn quick. Speed, speed, speed. Took on 2 BC's but couldn't do enough damage.....took us a couple hundred or so light missiles to figure this out.
Leon 026 Caldari Blood Inquisition	Posted - 2006.09.29 20:02:00 - [118] Most crow pilots dont have to worry about transversal when fighting an enemy, thus have no need to learn about tactics on how to minimize transversal. Long range crows dont have to worry about range, thus have no need to learn maneuvering tactics to get in close range, maintain close range, nor have the need to get a good attack vector to get in range. In essense, most crow pilots dont need to think tactically unlike the other inties, so have less maneuvering tactics in their repertoire in general. Solution? Out-maneuver the crow. ------------------------------- [ 2006.06.22 04:28:01 ] Leon 026 > My Crow dances like she's on ecstasy
Rahya	Posted - 2007.02.11 03:28:00 - [119] "So yes I suppose you are right. When faction gets taken into account the Crow is even slower than the majority of other interceptors." For the record : who the hell need the lowslot for cap if you use a capa injector ? Nano + inertia = faster then any other inty whit same skill and MWD
echosix qc	Posted - 2007.02.11 03:29:00 - [120] "So yes I suppose you are right. When faction gets taken into account the Crow is even slower than the majority of other interceptors." For the record : who the hell need the lowslot for cap if you use a capa injector ? Nano + inertia = faster then any other inty whit same skill and MWD

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