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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.28 01:09:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 28/03/2006 01:10:28
 Originally by: Sarmaul
of course, if people stopped plating their ceptors and fit passive resist modules instead then it wouldn't be able to sit at the sweet spot
Actually, this is completely untrue from my analyses. (You will have less hp's even on the lowest resist without 2 modules...)
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Zysco
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Posted - 2006.03.28 01:31:00 -
[62]
A long range crow cant fit a tank? News to me.
callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.28 01:40:00 -
[63]
"A long range crow cant fit a tank? News to me."
What sort of tank do you imagine she can fit? ^^
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Mordocik
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Posted - 2006.03.28 08:45:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Leon 026
First of all, in this scenario you are chasing the crow. Why?
Getting chased by another ceptor and thus being able to deal full missile damage IS one of the forte of the crow. In this scenario you are doing exactly what the crow wants you to do, and thus you take damage.
Remember, you are an interceptor, you should engage when its advantageous and not in situations where you know the enemy is going to kill you when you are in his kill-zone.
I partly agree here, but on the whole frig versus frig combat tends to happen a lot when you both warp in at similar range to start with, ie the fight starts with you ~20km apart. Already at this point you're scrambled and so warping away is not an option.
Originally by: Leon 026
What you should do, is have HIM chase you instead. When he's on your six, missile would be doing something like 2-4 dmg per hit, pull a loop-the-loop or a a quick 180 and you'll be on top of him before he realizes it.
Interesting idea and I will try playing around with this some more (I tried similar things in my tests yesterday) but what you're essentially saying is if the crow pilot isn't very good then you can pull a fast one on him. I'm assuming the crow pilot is competant which means he will be looking for such manouvres, thats not even taking into account the fact that if he has hit orbit at 17km and is chasing you at 19km and you try to pull the loop the orbit will automatically IMMEDIATELY take him into effective evasive actions that will keep you at range. Again this is further exacerbated if you have a plate on as you can't turn fast enough.
Originally by: Leon 026
I'd suggest reading up a bit on RL Aerial Combat Maneuvering.
Up to here I was with you, real life aerial combat takes place in gravity with rules about g forces and the limits of the human body. In your example the stunt of doing a loop will result in most pilots falling unconcious. In fact EVE's mechanics don't even vaguely resemble "RL" combat, when was the last time you saw a plane ignore being hit by a missile just because it was from behind?
Originally by: Leon 026
Secondly, you dont HAVE to engage every ship you encounter. You make it look like you are forced to engage every single ship. Unless you are looking for the challenge of being on the disadvantaged side, you should play cat and mouse, figure out the enemy set-up, then decide whether to continue or just pull out.
I don't HAVE to engage its true, but people seem to forget that I said "frig" not just any inty setup trying to beat the crow. Inty's have options but the majority of frigs don't even have that as they simply lack the speed to avoid the orbiting crow. Tomar was correct he did get me in a crow when I was in an AC wolf, because I lacked the speed there was nothing I could do. A classic range mis match, but a good example of where the crow completely dominates non inties even if you don't think it is as strong against other inties.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.28 08:57:00 -
[65]
Originally by: j0sephine
"I see a lot of people posting that you can out-skill a crow pilot and beat him. Well, he'd need to be *very* noob to let you get within web/short range. Even a modicum of skill can keep another inty away."
You don't necessarily need piloting skills and short range "omg mad damage" setups to beat the long range Crow. She isn't the only interceptor which can use standard launchers along with other long range weapons, and preventing a ship which can't web you from actually orbitting you at high speed, so their transversal gets low enough to get hit hard ... isn't complicated at all.
As I said in another part of the post....the problem really doesn't lie with the Crow. The problems lies in the fact that missile are inherently better than guns under many circumstances.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Montero
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Posted - 2006.03.28 08:59:00 -
[66]
Originally by: j0sephine
"A long range crow cant fit a tank? News to me."
What sort of tank do you imagine she can fit? ^^
a medium shield extender, as it happens.
Keep profanity & moderation discussion out of your sig, please. --Jorauk
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babylonstew
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Posted - 2006.03.28 09:12:00 -
[67]
actually, from my experience, its not that hard to beat a long range crow
i had mine orbiting a gal destroyer set with 125 rails(18k orbit, 5800+ m/s tranverse, and he hit me fine and hard), the guy only had destroyer lvl 1 aswell, notwe this was just for testing, i allways went up against a harpy the other day, pretty much same situation, he hit me even harder, i had to warp out with 27% structure in under a minute.
im guesing here a terannis with rails, if set right just has to set apprioach and will hit a fast crow pretty damn well (low transverse ?), going to test it later when i can .
X13 - We will win EVE |
Mordocik
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Posted - 2006.03.28 10:11:00 -
[68]
Originally by: babylonstew
actually, from my experience, its not that hard to beat a long range crow
i had mine orbiting a gal destroyer set with 125 rails(18k orbit, 5800+ m/s tranverse, and he hit me fine and hard), the guy only had destroyer lvl 1 aswell, notwe this was just for testing, i allways went up against a harpy the other day, pretty much same situation, he hit me even harder, i had to warp out with 27% structure in under a minute.
im guesing here a terannis with rails, if set right just has to set apprioach and will hit a fast crow pretty damn well (low transverse ?), going to test it later when i can .
Are you sure you had 5800+ transversal not just velocity? In my experience with that much transversal almost any turret will struggle to hit the sig radius of an inty. Re the destroyer skill, the more pertinent issue is his gunnery skills, though high destroyer would help.
The idea, often expressed in this thread, about getting low trans against the crow (or any inty) always seems to presuppose that the other pilot isn't doing his job well, ie keeping that transversal high and able to respond to your moves. I'm not saying its impossible, but from my own tests I don't see how its done.
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KIATolon
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Posted - 2006.03.28 10:42:00 -
[69]
in case someone hasn't posted already.
Go above 3.5k a second, and the crow will do a mighty 1 damage to you per missile.
OOH OWIES.
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Leon 026
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Posted - 2006.03.28 14:43:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Leon 026 on 28/03/2006 14:47:00
Quote:
Up to here I was with you, real life aerial combat takes place in gravity with rules about g forces and the limits of the human body. In your example the stunt of doing a loop will result in most pilots falling unconcious. In fact EVE's mechanics don't even vaguely resemble "RL" combat, when was the last time you saw a plane ignore being hit by a missile just because it was from behind?
Its not about copying maneuvers, its about expanding your awareness and possible options ;)
Quote:
Interesting idea and I will try playing around with this some more (I tried similar things in my tests yesterday) but what you're essentially saying is if the crow pilot isn't very good then you can pull a fast one on him. I'm assuming the crow pilot is competant which means he will be looking for such manouvres, thats not even taking into account the fact that if he has hit orbit at 17km and is chasing you at 19km and you try to pull the loop the orbit will automatically IMMEDIATELY take him into effective evasive actions that will keep you at range. Again this is further exacerbated if you have a plate on as you can't turn fast enough.
Say he's competant and you pull a fast 180 to be right on top of him, using your model he'll take evasive maneuvers to avoid getting webbed and also changes direction. If he's slow, you'll catch him, if he's fast he'll head straight for the other direction. Nothing's stopping you from doing another 180 to gain distance and warp off. And if he's at a 17-19km range, by the time he notices you changed direction you'll be out of range. Most of the time you'll only get visible confirmation that your target changed direction when you are fairly close to them. 17-19km you'll have to rely more on the distance and velocity counter if you are flying manually.
-------------------------------
[20:05:51] Cyshade > Leon 026, making Crow BPO owners trillionaires since 29.08.2005
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.28 14:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: KIATolon
in case someone hasn't posted already.
Go above 3.5k a second, and the crow will do a mighty 1 damage to you per missile.
OOH OWIES.
Incorrect. Go above 3.5k a second (using a MWD) and standard missiles hit for over 120. Tested and proved multiple times lastnight.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.28 15:03:00 -
[72]
"a medium shield extender, as it happens."
3x standard launcher, disruptor and MWD leave the Crow with ~0.5 units of grid. To mount medium shield extender she will need ~22-25 grid extra (tech.1 / tech.2 extender) which will require to give up at least 2 low slots for the grid enhancers.
That leaves her with single low slot for capacitor recharge module... except at this point there isn't even enough CPU left to mount one. And trying to MWD / warp disrupt anything without the cap relays whatsoever... that's pretty much hopeless.
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Adril Alatar
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Posted - 2006.03.28 15:07:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 28/03/2006 14:47:25
Originally by: KIATolon
in case someone hasn't posted already.
Go above 3.5k a second, and the crow will do a mighty 1 damage to you per missile.
OOH OWIES.
Incorrect. Go above 3.5k a second (using a MWD) and standard missiles hit for over 100 (test subject: Claw MWDing at a Crow at 4k+ per second, hitting for 120 avg). Tested and proved multiple times lastnight.
i think the speed is should be over 5k then damage is getting lower...
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Native
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Posted - 2006.03.28 15:10:00 -
[74]
Originally by: j0sephine
"a medium shield extender, as it happens."
3x standard launcher, disruptor and MWD leave the Crow with ~0.5 units of grid. To mount medium shield extender she will need ~22-25 grid extra (tech.1 / tech.2 extender) which will require to give up at least 2 low slots for the grid enhancers.
That leaves her with single low slot for capacitor recharge module... except at this point there isn't even enough CPU left to mount one. And trying to MWD / warp disrupt anything without the cap relays whatsoever... that's pretty much hopeless.
According to QF you can fit 3x Std II, MWD II, named 20k, named medium extender, cap relay, and 2 MAPC. But the cap is just crippling on this setup.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.28 15:13:00 -
[75]
"Incorrect. Go above 3.5k a second (using a MWD) and standard missiles hit for over 100 (test subject: Claw MWDing at a Crow at 4k+ per second, hitting for 120 avg). Tested and proved multiple times lastnight."
What setup was that? Because it makes no sense whatsoever.
* maxed out damage of kinetic light missile on Crow: 154 hp
* maxed out explosion velocity of light missile: 1.75 * 1.5 = 2.625 km/sec
* damage reduction when hitting target moving at 4 km/sec: down to 43%
... so the best it should really hit for at this speed is ~67 hp per missile, on structure. And that's with absolutely maxed out all relevant skills.
it's possible to hit for ~110 damage with that setup if target is moving at 3.5 km/sec or so, but 4+ ... no chance. Unless things are broken in which case fill the bug report. o.O;
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MrMorph
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Posted - 2006.03.28 17:32:00 -
[76]
how about:
I WIN EVE !!!!!
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No sig due to the 1byte 1 pixel limit.
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Angus Torg
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Posted - 2006.03.30 08:43:00 -
[77]
It's an old thread, I know. But I carried these 2 cents for some days now and need to get rid of them.
What will the Crow do, I it encounters a passive shield tanked Ishkur?
1 * Drone Link Augmentor I
2 * Medium Shield Extender II
1 * Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
3 * Shield Power Relay I
Should give a shield recharge rate of 33 in my calculations. The weak point is EM damage with only 45%. But how much DPS does a Crow do?
3 Standard Missile Launcher II with maximum Skills will do - correct me if I am wrong - around 50 raw DPS. Hitting my 45% resistance will cause 28 DPS.
So, the crow will have to fight down my 8 Light Drones before we can call it a draw.
(Of course, these are only maths...)
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.30 08:44:00 -
[78]
Over-rated, Crows are. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.30 08:53:00 -
[79]
Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 28/03/2006 15:18:19
"Incorrect. Go above 3.5k a second (using a MWD) and standard missiles hit for over 100 (test subject: Claw MWDing at a Crow at 4k+ per second, hitting for 120 avg). Tested and proved multiple times lastnight."
What setup was that? Because it makes no sense whatsoever.
* maxed out damage of kinetic light missile on Crow: 154 hp
* maxed out explosion velocity of light missile: 1.75 * 1.5 = 2.625 km/sec
* damage reduction when hitting target moving at 4 km/sec: down to 43%
... so the best it should really hit for at this speed is ~67 hp per missile, on structure. And that's with absolutely maxed out all relevant skills.
it's possible to hit for ~110 damage with that setup if target is moving at 3.5 km/sec or so, but 4+ ... no chance. Unless things are broken in which case fill the bug report. o.O;
(the "1 hp per missile" thing was true earlier, before the recent missile tweaks... as explosion velocity of light missiles was smaller, and people pointed out this means in order to kill fast moving 'ceptors one pretty much has to web them... which defeats the purpose of long range --for frigate standards-- missiles)
No number crunching or mathematics involved. I *do* know how the formulas work inside out. But just a simple in game test showed that that's simply not the way it works. The velocity was within a few m/s or 4050m/s, and the missiles were fired by someone stationary, with maxed out missiles skills, vs armour and shield unhardened on a Claw. I actually meant to say 'hitting for 120 avg on armour' - the hits went from around 100 on shields to 120 on armour.
I don't question that the maths don't support this, but at the end of the day, reality > theory.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.03.30 09:57:00 -
[80]
Testy,
Are you certain the crow was using standard missiles? Because the increased explosion radius of precisions would make the maths work out to very similar to what you are saying.
Maxed out damage per missile using Precision on Crow = 165
Maxed out Explosion velocity using Precision = 3000 * 1.5 = 4500m/s
Therefore the Claw would be getting hit for full damage, both because of sig & speed:
On shield (40% resist) = 165 * (1-0.4) = 99
On armour (25% resist) = 165 * (1-0.25) = 124
Max 
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.03.30 10:03:00 -
[81]
I dont get why you consider the light missle Crow uber v other ceptors....
In my rocket crow with barely sufficient skills I have killed every single ceptor I have engaged 1v1 only died against ceptor+AF and ceptor+kestrel combos...Sure there are theoretical set ups blah blah blah in practice if killing intys is what you want to do the missle set up is an elaborate tactic inviting fatal mistakes on your part.
+ If he is clever he will approach yu with max speed then as you going 4kms away from him will hit keep at range get outside of 20km and fly away... o/
(+ of course the point that the (*&*& minmattar inties will kill you if artillery ftted cause they are faster -given same mods used-)
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Montero
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Posted - 2006.03.30 10:20:00 -
[82]
the thing with the plated rocket crow is that their are other intys that can tank it and beat it down. whereas with the light missile crow you can in theory stay well out of web range and keep massive transversal while your missiles still do good damage, while a turret ceptor has to fight for low transversal to keep damage on you. it makes crows easier to fly long range.
Keep profanity & moderation discussion out of your sig, please. --Jorauk
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:09:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Max Teranous
Testy,
Are you certain the crow was using standard missiles? Because the increased explosion radius of precisions would make the maths work out to very similar to what you are saying.
Maxed out damage per missile using Precision on Crow = 165
Maxed out Explosion velocity using Precision = 3000 * 1.5 = 4500m/s
Therefore the Claw would be getting hit for full damage, both because of sig & speed:
On shield (40% resist) = 165 * (1-0.4) = 99
On armour (25% resist) = 165 * (1-0.25) = 124
Given that maths, I'll confirm that to be sure - I wasn't firing the missiles, so I suppose it's possible it could have been a mistake.
Originally by: Montero
...it makes crows easier to fly long range.
This also goes for short range. It also goes for all primarily missile based ships :)
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:10:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Zysco
A long range crow cant fit a tank? News to me.
I'd like to see this 'tank'.
Unless you've somehow managed to train engineering, electronics, and both weapon upgrades skills higher than 5. If so, will you email me and tell me how? 
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Mordocik
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Posted - 2006.03.31 10:55:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Sarmaul
of course, if people stopped plating their ceptors and fit passive resist modules instead then it wouldn't be able to sit at the sweet spot
The passive resist (its hard to find the room to fit more then 1 really) will not make enough of a difference to be worth it in my opinion. Any time you fit a hardener / resist of any kind you are counting on the fact that you will be taking a particular type of damage, whereas fitting a plate just gives you that much more armour in total against any kind of damage. Fitting a plate is almost always a better option unless you specifically know what you will be encountering, not too mention that it stops burst DPS taking you out, something that's important in a ceptor as you will often take large damage getting into your optimal.
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Mordocik
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Posted - 2006.03.31 10:57:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Angus Torg
What will the Crow do, I it encounters a passive shield tanked Ishkur?
It will simply fly away if it can't do the requisite damage to overcome your tank. Again another draw.
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Mordocik
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Posted - 2006.03.31 10:59:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Max Teranous
Testy,
Are you certain the crow was using standard missiles? Because the increased explosion radius of precisions would make the maths work out to very similar to what you are saying.
Maxed out damage per missile using Precision on Crow = 165
Maxed out Explosion velocity using Precision = 3000 * 1.5 = 4500m/s
Therefore the Claw would be getting hit for full damage, both because of sig & speed:
On shield (40% resist) = 165 * (1-0.4) = 99
On armour (25% resist) = 165 * (1-0.25) = 124
I can verify that with NORMAL missiles the damage testy confirmed is correct. The only explanation I can offer for why so many people feel that this damage shouldn't be happening but actually is, is because the stats in the various mathematic models floating around (the tutorial for example) is based on the ship moving in the opposite direction. It's a long shot I know but frankly thats the damage I'm taking in game from multiple tests. You can shout and scream about you should only be taking such and such damage from a missile under such and such circumstances, but its just not how its happening in game.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.31 14:49:00 -
[88]
"The only explanation I can offer for why so many people feel that this damage shouldn't be happening but actually is, is because the stats in the various mathematic models floating around (the tutorial for example) is based on the ship moving in the opposite direction."
I think the reason people feel this shouldn't be happening is, even the official "Missile guide" doesn't mention anything about the direction of target ship being any sort of factor in damage amount.
Either it's a game bug and should be fixed, or the guide is incomplete and should be updated to reflect it... in either case a developer response clarifying the matter would be extremely handy. :/
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.03.31 15:06:00 -
[89]
I've personally never seen damage taken or damage inflicted with missiles vary at all due to a vector of travel. I'm also kind of thinking TomB wouldn't have missed that out of the missile guide.
A normal missile will get close to the figures I posted (~6% less, as precisions have a base 5 damage more than normal) while the MWD is on but you aren't up to speed - according to the maths. If I get time this weekend I'll collar a corp mate with a Crow and let him shoot me 
Max
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Frools
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Posted - 2006.03.31 15:10:00 -
[90]
i dont remember missile damage being affected when i had a little dual against a corpmates ares with std launchers but they direction definately affected whether or not they managed to hit or not
had a couple of missiles overshoot, turn round and start chasing me before they ran out of fuel, i wish i had fraps on then it looked awesome 
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