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0bsession
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Posted - 2006.03.30 01:21:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Deja Thoris
the term "a free market" may refer to the particular market as being free of restrictions
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From Wiki too^^
Look ma, I found a quote in there to suit me.
It's not free of restrictions. Supply is restricted. If hac's were in RL a factory would be banging them out 24/7. If it could not keep up with demand more factories would open.
Finally, some good evidence to shut up all these "free market" t2 prodding gougers. Oh, and lets not forget if this WAS a free market, we'd all know who we are buying from... cuz to be honest, buying the best deal from a crappy pirate corp is not always the best "deal" if you know what I mean.
free market? don't think so.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.30 01:31:00 -
[62]
Edited by: j0sephine on 30/03/2006 01:31:50
"the term "a free market" may refer to the particular market as being free of restrictions
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From Wiki too^^
Look ma, I found a quote in there to suit me."
But selective quoting to warp things out of context is taking this a bit too far, ain't it? Because the full sentence you refer to goes:
"In very specific contexts, as in the exchange of a particular pair of commodities, the term "a free market" may refer to the particular market as being free of restrictions"
this is quite a bit different from what we talk about. For situation at hand limitation of supply is perfectly acceptable.
And if you think about it, the condition that there cannot be supply limitations in order for market to be "free" is self-defeating. If there cannot be limitation of supply, then by the same token there cannot be limitation of demand. And since this would require infinite amount of customers and the number of people on the planet doesn't and never will meet this condition, it would mean there can never be free market, period -.o
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0bsession
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Posted - 2006.03.30 01:40:00 -
[63]
My point is... if this market WAS free, then I'd be able to buy and sell something on the market at whatever price I want from and to whoever I want.
And thats not the case... try setting a corp buy order at a station and ask your members to sell to that buy order... but if someone puts up an order for a penny more, they'll get the order... NOT the corp trying to sell to its own corp.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.30 01:56:00 -
[64]
Edited by: j0sephine on 30/03/2006 02:01:45
"My point is... if this market WAS free, then I'd be able to buy and sell something on the market at whatever price I want from and to whoever I want."
... if i have a HAC in my posession, am perfectly able to put it on the EVE market at the price i want. I may not find someone silly enough to pay this price, though.
In similar manner i can put a buy order for a HAC with whatever price i like. I may not find someone silly enough to sell me one at this price, though.
This _is_ free market. Please do not confues it with "i should be guaranteed to buy/sell something at exactly the price i'd want to pay/sell for it" ... because that is not free market. It's a pipe dream. o.O;
edit: someone might argue EVE market isn't completely free because there's things like sales tax etc somewhat influencing the price, and they'd actually have a point ... but well, i haven't seen that particular bit mentioned ever as a factor and unsurprisingly so.
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0bsession
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Posted - 2006.03.30 02:18:00 -
[65]
Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 30/03/2006 02:01:45
"My point is... if this market WAS free, then I'd be able to buy and sell something on the market at whatever price I want from and to whoever I want."
... if i have a HAC in my posession, am perfectly able to put it on the EVE market at the price i want. I may not find someone silly enough to pay this price, though.
In similar manner i can put a buy order for a HAC with whatever price i like. I may not find someone silly enough to sell me one at this price, though.
This _is_ free market. Please do not confues it with "i should be guaranteed to buy/sell something at exactly the price i'd want to pay/sell for it" ... because that is not free market. It's a pipe dream. o.O;
edit: someone might argue EVE market isn't completely free because there's things like sales tax etc somewhat influencing the price, and they'd actually have a point ... but well, i haven't seen that particular bit mentioned ever as a factor and unsurprisingly so.
you totally misunderstood what I said... completly. this "free market" you speak of, literally just hands out the best deals around... you cant chose who you buy from. it doesnt matter. Free market means... "buy American".. not "buy Band Of Brothers" if you dont want to support them.
Nothing against you... 
... but Eve's market has limitations.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.30 04:04:00 -
[66]
"now THATS a free market..."
Err.. no, afraid it isn't. What you are asking for is the ability to impose economic sanctions on other entities, i.e. deny them access to commodities you sell, or avoid purchase from them... purely because you don't like their views, rather than for economic reasons (if it's done due to economic reasons, then it's called trade sanctions, a different animal) ... If anything, this is actually opposite of "free market" in the economic sense.
It could perhaps make the game more interesting yes, but please don't call this 'free market'... because it simply isn't, and it just creates confusion as you can see ^^;;
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Puncher
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Posted - 2006.03.30 04:06:00 -
[67]
We do our damnedest to keep Cerb prices low at BIG (www.big-sales.net), with the exception of an occasionaly spike we have been selling at roughly half market value for some time now. Unforunately, this leads to really bad wait times as pretty much everyone just buys/resells them...
Vagas are just as bad...
-- My commentary is my own; it does not reflect the views of FA or BIG-- |
Arron S
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Posted - 2006.03.30 04:19:00 -
[68]
I'm not going to wast my money on HAC's. I would by one for 50 million but not 100-200 Million the *******s are selling them for.
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Netto
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Posted - 2006.03.30 04:31:00 -
[69]
It's quite simple, really. As damn near everyone has said.
Don't buy them.
I've hac 5, medium pulse spec 5, etc, and I simply refuse to pay over 100 mil for a HAC. So when a corp in our alliance stopped discounting them to alliance members, I stopped buying them. As far as I'm concerned, HAC's are great targets for hit and run inty/cruiser squads (nice hit to wallets), and nothing more.
Maybe someday I'll put those skills back to use but quite simply, the amount of carebearing I'd need to do to keep me in pvpable HAC's isn't worth it.
Maybe I'll get to fly the ships again someday, maybe not. /shrug
Netto
Celestial Fleet - We care. |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.03.30 10:10:00 -
[70]
Originally by: j0sephine
"now THATS a free market..."
Err.. no, afraid it isn't. What you are asking for is the ability to impose economic sanctions on other entities, i.e. deny them access to commodities you sell, or avoid purchase from them... purely because you don't like their views, rather than for economic reasons (if it's done due to economic reasons, then it's called trade sanctions, a different animal) ... If anything, this is actually opposite of "free market" in the economic sense.
It could perhaps make the game more interesting yes, but please don't call this 'free market'... because it simply isn't, and it just creates confusion as you can see ^^;;
CCP is EvE's government. They have played God and limited supply artificially.
In that situation there is no free market and no amount of semantics and word games will make your point valid.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.30 10:23:00 -
[71]
Right or wrong, definition of free market has none.
Two possible meanings, free market has.
1. Buying from one person, happy not, you are? Buy from somebody else, always you can.
2. Happy not, price with? Buy or buy not. Someone else buys.
 
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.03.30 10:27:00 -
[72]
while ppl pay to play with HACs the sellers will get their prices
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Asnar
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Posted - 2006.03.30 10:39:00 -
[73]
Supply is always limited, it's the basis of having a market. However when due to a increase demand prices go up, as a result profits go up, which results in people doing their damndest do increase supply which ultimately leads to stabilizing or even lower prices again. Fact is that in EVE the most limiting factor ( bpo's ) cannot be affected no matter how high your profits go.
HOWEVER and this is quite important to note, the other limiting factors are not limiting enough to on their own cause a succesful market dynamic, as the tech 1 market has shown quite well. If CCP did not limit the bpos the market would fail, profits would crash and ultimately it would not be good for the currently quite healthy game economy.
So while people are right that this isn't a completely free market, it is a much closer approximation of one then having bpos available on market would be. They're working on a system that would make bpos limited enough to work has the main limiting factor while giving us the ability to affect it if we have the motivation to do so ( a chance to make a lot of cash )
 And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro
If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area |
Tonkin
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Posted - 2006.03.30 10:44:00 -
[74]
you can moan about the prices but if you want a hac you gota pay for it, im going for the cerb then for the zealot, i wait till i get a deal of a buddy, working on getting a 5 cerbs for just over the production price about 50 mill i think each. not going to sell them though i like my collection of ships
will kill anythin for the right price |
Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.03.30 10:56:00 -
[75]
time for CCP to bring on BPCs via agents
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Tonkin
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:00:00 -
[76]
even if they do that it will slightly decrease tech 2 production is pricey now becasue pos's are not save no more dreads come in wtfpwn them, so alot of tech 2 production is kept inside corps and alliances instad of the market.
ccp will bring some more of them out eventually but it is a little sad that a cammand ship is cheaper than them and more powerfull, prob is though you need the skills heheh
will kill anythin for the right price |
Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:03:00 -
[77]
u would think that with t2 battlecruisers and battlecruisers that players would shift but this isnt happening. The altenatives then
Factinal cruisers
Battleships
Battlecruisers
Id say without action players will be paying 400m very soon and most probably will keep paying.
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Pablos Ine
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:05:00 -
[78]
I do believe that the prices are insane. .and although I agree with some earlier posters that If I had the BPO i would be tempted to sell for the same price. But then if you decided not to do that, and sell lower, someone would instantly buy and sell at the higher market prices.
Im currently onto my 3rd and last Zealot, I paid 75 mill for the 1st and 130 for the next 2.
If I lose it, it will be the last I buy until the prices come down, if they dont I wont buy, its that simple.
If people didnt pay the prices, the prices would come down.
400x120@24000 bytes or less please. -Capsicum
"Only the dead have seen the end of war."
Plato
"I drank what !!! ?"
Socrates |
Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:05:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Miss Overlord
I'd say without action players will be paying 400m very soon and most probably will keep paying.
400 you say?
*runs off to stockpile more HACs for 200* 
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Tonkin
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:08:00 -
[80]
at the end of the day these guys like money we all do if they can sell it at price and get it bought GREAT we would all do it, i do. in 0.0 you sell stuff for double or 1.5 the price just the same, low production high demand HIGH PRICES
will kill anythin for the right price |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:08:00 -
[81]
"CCP is EvE's government. They have played God and limited supply artificially.
In that situation there is no free market and no amount of semantics and word games will make your point valid."
There is literally God-limited supply of land in circulation. (since Earth is only _that_ big and won't really grow) By your reasoning, this makes free market of real estate on this planet a physical impossibility.
It's no semantics, nor word games. It's common sense. Free market is when there's no external regulations (taxes, imposed minimal wages etc) playing a factor in the price of commodity. It's a market where the price is determined by supply/demand no matter what the size of that supply/demand is. And since it does not require unlimited supply nor unlimited demand, the fact there's limited amount of BPOs available doesn't make it "not free".
Limited supply can make it a seller's market, if anything. --;;
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Asnar
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:09:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Miss Overlord
u would think that with t2 battlecruisers and battlecruisers that players would shift but this isnt happening. The altenatives then
Factinal cruisers
Battleships
Battlecruisers
Id say without action players will be paying 400m very soon and most probably will keep paying.
Skill requirements for t2 battlecruisers is hefty to say the least. Especially the leadership try which doesn't have a lot of benefits if you're going for the field command ( which is a better HAC but only in part ) And well there are still some major benefits in using a HAC over a field command, most importantly speed.
And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro
If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area |
Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:09:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 30/03/2006 11:10:46
Originally by: Pablos Ine
If people didnt pay the prices, the prices would come down.
The prices *would* come down, but there would still be the same demand so they would all be bought up as soon as the price hit an "acceptable" threshold.
Then people would moan about how there are none on the market.
HAC prices are god's way of telling you you can't have everything you want in life.
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Tonkin
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:11:00 -
[84]
if they do as much or more damage than a hac i will get one, but with pigger ships the bullseye on your hull gets brigger and brighter
will kill anythin for the right price |
Rellik B00n
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:13:00 -
[85]
yadda yadda yadda, I win the thread
camp A
have ISK and tech II BPs. Dont want more HACs on the market for obvious reasons.
camp B
have not much ISK and no BPs. Want more HACs on the market for obvious reasons.
frankly i dont care whether "HACs are a luxury item and should only be available for the few" applies, whats the most important thing about this game?
F U N
how to have more fun? Have more of the ships open to players. Seed more BPs CCP.
.
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Asnar
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:15:00 -
[86]
Originally by: j0sephine
"CCP is EvE's government. They have played God and limited supply artificially.
In that situation there is no free market and no amount of semantics and word games will make your point valid."
There is literally God-limited supply of land in circulation. (since Earth is only _that_ big and won't really grow) By your reasoning, this makes free market of real estate on this planet a physical impossibility.
Not true, land is not limited atleast not in a way that has any effect. We got plenty of ocean that can be used to create land. Plenty mountains to break down. And things get desperate enough we would start building on the moon or whatever. If there's enough demand a solution will be found to increase supply.
And that is the issue with the HACs in large part, there is no ability to increase supply past having all bpos in constant production no matter what you do.
And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro
If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area |
Teles666
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:22:00 -
[87]
T2 is not a free market because there are insurmountable barriers to entering the market (a t2 bpo).
Just as in the real world where a special license may be required to enter a market - it is regulated. In this case regulated by CCP by means of issuing bpos.
Tech 1 is a free market, anyone can have a go at it, the barriers may be high (in skills and starting capital) in the case of capital ships but it is still possible.
I suppose you could say if you had enough isk you could tempt a hac bpo from somebody - but not everyone can do it, supply of bpos is finite and heavily regulated.
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La Tortura
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:23:00 -
[88]
Sources of productions are artifically limited, and there's no chance to bring new actors on it == not free market.
It more looks like a market of corporate state, an hybrid of Italia in times of Mussolini and plan economics of ex-USSR.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:23:00 -
[89]
"Not true, land is not limited atleast not in a way that has any effect. We got plenty of ocean that can be used to create land. Plenty mountains to break down. And things get desperate enough we would start building on the moon or whatever."
Note i did not exclude land which is currently not available due to being too expensive to utilize at the moment. And i did say "on this planet" which kind of rules out the moon and space colonization ;s
Bottom line was, there's only that much that can be build on Earth. Eventually you utilize all current lands, all oceans, and build up all way to end of atmosphere. There is capped supply of space you'll eventually bang your head against. Much like no matter what you do, there's only that many HACs that can be built in any given slice of time. With the HACs it just took much faster to reach this limit.
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Logi3
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Posted - 2006.03.30 11:24:00 -
[90]
Paid 140mil for my Cerberus
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