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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.03.29 23:50:00 -
[1]
This topic has probably been addressed already, though I didn't see any instances of this within the last couple pages... So here goes. :P
Is there any reason why characters can't be given the option to reallocate skill points (obviously only to a certain degree). I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation: while making a character, I knew absolutely nothing about what attributes actually did. I, being Intaki, ended up with a base perception of 5... And a base charisma of 11.
Yes, I know; "remake!". However, I didn't even realize just how bad it was until a few weeks into EVE, and, naive as I was, I opted not to remake. Dumb me.
Anyway, I don't see how this would negatively effect gameplay at all. I can understand worries about min-maxing a character; however, I think there's a real easy way to solve this... Simply cap attribute points! I think whatever the lowest possible value (in character generation) would make a good minimum (though maybe bloodline should come into play?), and 11 (or at absolute most 12) for a maximum would effectively prevent any more min-maxing than we have already.
I just don't think it's fair for players who didn't have the oppurtunity of an experienced friend or established corp to guide them in their first month or two should be penalized with a useless attribute. Charisma is primary to one skill tree for christ's sake! And it's not even useful unless you're mission runner!
What do you guys think?
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CardboardSword42
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Posted - 2006.03.30 00:21:00 -
[2]
I like the idea and would like to see it implemented so long as there are a few rules put in place such as:
1) Minimum Attribute: With the new bloodline and then being able to rearrange attribute points, it would be possible to see some people with charisma 1.
2) Limit to the number of times you could do it: Either just once or once in 3 months or something along those lines. This would prevent people from rearranging attributes every time they switched the skill they were training.
Other than that, :^:
This sig is yellow - Ductoris |
Yeggstry
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Posted - 2006.03.30 00:23:00 -
[3]
I think you should play the game instead of worrying about your character being perfect.
I have had more enjoyment out of helping my corp with its targets, helping defend our space and moudling my character to make the corp better than anything that my fairly-balanced attributes would do for me.
Stop thinking about changing the game to suit you and live with the rules that CCP have laid out.
___
Webmaster of FutureFalcon EVE Tools, Home of the ECM and new EVE Management Suite (EMS).
http://www.eve-ffet.com/
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CardboardSword42
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Posted - 2006.03.30 00:42:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Yeggstry
I think you should play the game instead of worrying about your character being perfect.
You can enjoy the game and suggest ways to improve it at the same time. One of the greatest things about EVE is the amount of interaction with these forums between Devs and the playerbase. If nobody bothered to suggest things on the forums EVE wouldn't be the same place it is today. Sure not all ideas have to be implemented but it never hurts to discuss.
Originally by: Yeggstry
I have had more enjoyment out of helping my corp with its targets, helping defend our space and moudling my character to make the corp better than anything that my fairly-balanced attributes would do for me.
This doesn't really have much to do with the topic at hand. I don't think that extra points in charisma has made him sit in a station for as long as he's been playing EVE wishing he had alotted his attributes differently. The fact that he has kept his character for a year despite knowing that he sort of gimped him shows that his primary concern isn't having the perfect attribute layout.
Originally by: Yeggstry
Stop thinking about changing the game to suit you and live with the rules that CCP have laid out.
I don't think that he would be the only person who this would benefit. It's pretty well known that charisma is a next to useless attribute, and that many new players do not know this at character creation. In many other games you can respec at certain points in the game to make up for mistakes you made while you were new; EVE doesn't really have that oppurtunity.
This sig is yellow - Ductoris |
Talori'i
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Posted - 2006.03.30 00:44:00 -
[5]
Believe me, I know what you are talking about... I am Intaki too... and have a base perc of 3. It hurts so much sometimes I want to cry.
I sometimes feel like it would be nice to have one "do over" on stats. I should have just created another account after my 14 day trial but I didn't know any better. Although I guess I can hope that skills in the future will be more balanced and less focuses on Int/Perc.
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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.03.30 01:12:00 -
[6]
Well firstly, Yeggstry... I'd appreciate it if you'd not come into my thread just to tout how much of an asset you are to your corp, and then to basically tell me that I should shutup. It guess that's easy to say when you already have average attributes and twenty-four million skillpoints.
Anyway, 3 should definitely be the absolute minimum; there's no lower values possible in character creation. I don't think making the base bloodline attributes the mimimum would be a bad idea either; it would keep some of each bloodlines' characteristic traits around. As for a maximum, 11 seems like a pretty good number. This would be changed in instances where a character's base attribute is already greater than 11, in which case the maximum for that chararacter would obviously have to be raised to it's base.
Once per x months seems like a good idea; once per year even seems fine... In my mind, this feature wouldn't be designed to be a dynamic thing, but as a means to fix things that a player really regrets from character creation.
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Astrum Ludus
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Posted - 2006.03.30 08:52:00 -
[7]
I would suggest a different way of solving this problem...make charisma (gasp) useful 
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Wireknight
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Posted - 2006.03.30 10:05:00 -
[8]
How about no? If you realize that your attributes are crap after about a month, you make a decision: to either reroll a new character, or to cope with it. I'm not aware of any other game where, if you start as a fighter, you get to switch to another class if you find to not like it after a month. You either start that new character or stick with it. EVE doesn't have classes, but the attributes are their equivalent, as they'll define the areas your character will excel in, i.e. its benefited "classes". EVE just enables you to advance into areas your character does not excel in (skilltime-wise), whereas that is entirely impossible in a great many other (MMO)RPGs. That freedom needs to come at a disadvantage, i.e. the fact that you cannot learn one field at no disadvantage, then effectively discard your class and learn the next field at no disadvantage. And if that isn't "any more min-maxing than we have already" then wtf *is* more min-maxing?
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:25:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 30/03/2006 13:25:29
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Mrmuttley
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Posted - 2006.03.30 14:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Astrum Ludus
I would suggest a different way of solving this problem...make charisma (gasp) useful
/Signed I have base charisma of 13 
TBH I realy dont care any more im never gonna catch the like of DRCaymus and Tripoli and I can do pretty much everything I want it just takes me a few days longer to train. When you've been in game over two years attributes stop being as important as they seemed.
I have a new character on a power of two account who perhaps unsurprisingly is an Achura Monk with base attributes of 9/9/9/9/3 So making charisma useful will mean I end up buying her a +5 charisma implant or something 
As for redistribution of attributes. No thanks unless I can back date it to say three months after I started playing and realised I had slightly gimped my character. If thats the case ill take Ammar Gallente and CAldari cruiser to V please.
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Seramis
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Posted - 2006.03.30 14:13:00 -
[11]
I have an Alt char, he has Charisma at 29 now. I made him a trader and producer char, and it works fine. There is no reason for changing anything. Otherwise everyone changes his attributes with every new skill he starts, that's stupid.
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Yeggstry
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:26:00 -
[12]
I apologise for my first post, it was a little bit too self-centered for the topic. Allow me to try this again....
The reason why people have been asking for this is because the skills are unbalanced i.e. unfavourable to Charisma, as Astrum pointed out. Simple solution would be to make it balanced again but unfortunately the original skills can't be changed so either the new skills that come through have to be more based around Charisma or it looks like we're stuck with it. Either that or CCP change the attributes for a lot of skills, but I can see more people complaining about that.
In my opinion we should be looking at the source of the problem and not a fix to cover up the underlying flaw.
___
Webmaster of FutureFalcon EVE Tools, Home of the ECM and new EVE Management Suite (EMS).
http://www.eve-ffet.com/
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Bellac
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:48:00 -
[13]
I have posted this before - but my idea would be to have a "Retraining skill" that allowed the reallocation of 1 point of attribute per level. It may be a problematic skill to impliment, but a few points changed would cure almost everyones problems.
On the down side you could end up with all characters having just about the same attributes which sort of makes a mockery of the whole character creation.
At the end of the day you just have to live with it I guess. TBH I feel that there is too much faith put into skills anyhoo. Its not the skills you have - but the way that you use them that counts.
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ZZandra
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Posted - 2006.03.31 09:19:00 -
[14]
I think it could be abused too easily. For example, you start a new character and have the highest intelligence and memory possible in order to train up all the learning skills. Then, you turn around and make perception and willpower the highest for your combat skills. Finally, you decide you need some social skills...up goes charisma.
I know I'd like to change my attributes a bit, but I have decided to stick with it. Takes me a bit longer for a lot of skills, but the oddball skills get done a bit faster :)
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Teles666
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Posted - 2006.03.31 13:35:00 -
[15]
Even a fighter needs to learn a hell of a lot of engineering skills, I'd say a balance between intel and perc is by far the best.
Charisma - well that does kinda suck, at least your getting gang skills that use it now.
CCP need to make charisma more useful or get rid of it - at the moment it's just a trap for noobs to fall into.
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Kery Nysell
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Posted - 2006.03.31 15:43:00 -
[16]
@Wireknight : in Ultima Online (10 years old MMORPG) you could switch your attributes and skills, you just had a "maximu pool" to do your character, and in Asheron's Call they added the possibility to erase skills and swap attributes around ...
The biggest problem I see with this idea is the possibility for exploitation, even with an attribute cap (I think there's already one) :
Switch all attributes except the two you need for your currently training skill tree to the bare minimum pump the Primary to the max and keep a few points for the Secondary, rush your training times to a sick level and in doing so totally defeat the purpose of Learning skills, and of the voluntary time sink that the very system of skills in eVe is ...
In short : please no, even with a timer between re-allocations, it's a Pandora's Box of possible exploits.
BTW, I started this character with 5 Perception and 6 Willpower, and while it did take me a few hours more to raise my Gunnery, Missiles and Spaceship Command skills, it never was a big problem ... yes, I have maxed Advanced Learning skills, but only +2 implants on those stats.
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000Hunter000
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Posted - 2006.04.01 11:05:00 -
[17]
Sorta agree, but make it limited.
The first 2 weeks in the game u have a 1 time option to switch some of ur attribute points around but once u've done that u will have to live with it for the rest of ur eve life. That would be a good thing imo. (had i known as well i would have increased my willpower in favor of my charisma.
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jukriamrr
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Posted - 2006.04.01 11:39:00 -
[18]
Best solution is, as said, to make charisma useful.
Not only with the 'regular' charisma-related skills (and making them more numerous), but also with more surprising ones.
For example, Command ships. If they are supposed to (partially) give bonuses to gang modules, why not make that skill partially charisma-base? You'd train it using Willpower/Charisma or Perception/Charisma?
My 2 Ç cents
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Kery Nysell
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Posted - 2006.04.01 13:16:00 -
[19]
Originally by: jukriamrr
For example, Command ships. If they are supposed to (partially) give bonuses to gang modules, why not make that skill partially charisma-base? You'd train it using Willpower/Charisma or Perception/Charisma?
Since you need Squadron Command 4 to fly those ships, and Leadership 5 to learn Squadron Command, both Charisma-based skills, they already ask for a bit of Charisma ...
And there are the Trading skills, but yes, I think eVe could use more skills based on Charisma, even if I started with a lowly 6 ...
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jukriamrr
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Posted - 2006.04.01 14:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kery Nysell
Since you need Squadron Command 4 to fly those ships, and Leadership 5 to learn Squadron Command, both Charisma-based skills, they already ask for a bit of Charisma ...
Yeah but still 
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qui arthell
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Posted - 2006.04.04 00:35:00 -
[21]
Intaki with base Perception of 3, as well.
I would have jumped all over the chance of switching some points out of charisma, although I think I'm happy with it now. That extra charisma will help out the Leadership/Gang skills.
And yeah, post-creation changes are pretty common in alot of MMOs, and can be as loose or strict as you can think of. I'm sure even having a 1-time chance to move a couple attribute points, but not able to make an attribute go below the races base, would make alot of stubborn noobs like myself happy. 
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Demiurge Ialdaboth
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Posted - 2006.04.04 04:11:00 -
[22]
I believe DNA Mutators are going to be something like this, expensive one-time use drugs that will alter certain attributes permanently.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.04.04 07:34:00 -
[23]
Skill training is based upon the attributes.
How do you suggest the attribute change to be implemented?
Ignore the changed attributes?
Adjust the #skillpoints to the changed stats and drop those beyond L5 in a skill?
Reduce the skill levels of skills where you remove stat points?
Imo the easiest way would be to live with it and change your style to match the stats or live with it.
Charisma is used in trade, social, management and leadership skills. These aren't that training time consuming as other groups, but is is far from useless.
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Megadon
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Zoltaris
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Posted - 2006.04.04 13:04:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Zoltaris on 04/04/2006 13:11:19
DNA mutators, once introduced in the game, will allow a limited form of attributes reallocation
You will be able to permanently decrease an attribute by 1 pt to permanently increase another attribute by 1 pt, i guess a skill will limit the number of DNA mutators we will be able to use
I hope they get introduced soon and that it will not be possible to lower attributes below the minimum racial starting attributes (before modifications from learning skills and implants)
This way, it will be possible to correct some mistakes we could have made at character creation, but wouldn't allow people to get 1 in charisma to increase Per. or Int. really high
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ChuMak
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Posted - 2006.04.05 01:22:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Talori'i
Believe me, I know what you are talking about... I am Intaki too... and have a base perc of 3. It hurts so much sometimes I want to cry.
I sometimes feel like it would be nice to have one "do over" on stats. I should have just created another account after my 14 day trial but I didn't know any better. Although I guess I can hope that skills in the future will be more balanced and less focuses on Int/Perc.
IMHO Intaki should create a so-called Alcoholic' Anonimous Society to cry over their base perception together durin' the long-long winter nights of training Gallente Industrial lvl5.
I know your pain, sister... pass me another slug..
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