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Wheres the tradeoff with guns and missiles

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Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 00:31:00 - [1] Hi I was looking at missiles and guns. People say this game is pretty balanced so I am trying to figure out where the tradeoff is. I assume there is one. Missiles: never miss at long range or close range very good range choose damage type very nice fitting stats Guns: miss at close range miss at long range poor damage at long ranges good damage at short ranges (but close range hitting is difficult because of tracking) terrible fitting stats Medium ammo and heavy missiles cost about the same. Larger missiles seem to cost more, but it makes sense since fewer are used. So where is the trade off? A trade off means "both have their plusses and minuses". I can only see minuses with guns, and plusses with missiles? Sorry about my English
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.04.03 00:40:00 - [2] I guess there really isnt... except the whole "wrecking shot" thing you get once in a blue moon, but other than that... Why do you think so many people say Caldari are overpowered? =p
Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 00:48:00 - [3] Originally by: OrangeAfroMan except the whole "wrecking shot" thing you get once in a blue moon, but other than that... That is supposed to happen only 1% of the time right? Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Why do you think so many people say Caldari are overpowered? =p I am new and trying to understand the game, thank you for your reply! Sorry about my English
Hoshi	Posted - 2006.04.03 00:56:00 - [4] Guns do instant damage while missiles can take a long time to reach the target. Guns have better DPS specially with good skills. As for fitting missiles take less powergrid but more cpu in general and missile users have less options, there is only 1 launcher of each size while turrets have 3. There are more +/- on both sides, in the end they are mostly balanced. Missiles are better for some things, turrets for others. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KillmAll187	Posted - 2006.04.03 00:58:00 - [5] Are you people making alts to pass your skewed agenda?
jbob2000	Posted - 2006.04.03 00:59:00 - [6] Guns actually take skill to use, and most people want to take the easy way out. If it was up to me, i'd give Caldari a different primary weapon that took skill to use and then have missiles as secondary fire. Missile ships are for noobs.
Cade Morrigan	Posted - 2006.04.03 01:07:00 - [7] Originally by: jbob2000 Guns actually take skill to use, and most people want to take the easy way out. If it was up to me, i'd give Caldari a different primary weapon that took skill to use and then have missiles as secondary fire. Missile ships are for noobs. I use missile ships. I use rail ships. I enjoy both. Rail ships aren't "hard to use" and anyone saying it takes significant real world skillz or mental agility to fly a rail ship probably thinks driving a stick shift is difficult too. -= Save the Gila! Fix its grid and cpu! =-
Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 01:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Cade Morrigan I use missile ships. I use rail ships. I enjoy both. Rail ships aren't "hard to use" and anyone saying it takes significant real world skillz or mental agility to fly a rail ship probably thinks driving a stick shift is difficult too. He probably means that guns ships are requiring more skills to fly than a missile ship. Because of optimal ranges, and transversal velocity. Sorry about my English
Cade Morrigan	Posted - 2006.04.03 01:13:00 - [9] Yes, he may mean that and if so then please consider my remark directed at those who do believe such things. I've seen plenty of posts with that sort of thought process behind. -= Save the Gila! Fix its grid and cpu! =-
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.04.03 01:16:00 - [10] With artillery you really really have to worry about transversal. Also, missles do take a lot less SP to train to t2 than guns.....
IamBen	Posted - 2006.04.03 01:33:00 - [11] Originally by: jbob2000 Guns actually take skill to use, and most people want to take the easy way out. If it was up to me, i'd give Caldari a different primary weapon that took skill to use and then have missiles as secondary fire. Missile ships are for noobs. Way to make yourself look like a total idiot.. Because using guns requires more "skill" in this video game lol..... To the original OP. Missles do consistent damage at various ranges however their RoF is very slow compared to guns. Guns will almost outdamage a missle boat. A good Moa ship will pwn the livil hell out of a caracal. In terms of balance, look at the following: Sniper megas can insta pop most frigs or other frigs that are sitting at a gate. In addition, the Scimitar/Eagle combo has no equivalent in missle ships. There is no way to remotely boost your missle speed/explosion velocity the way a Eagle or Mega/tempest can be boosted to nail anything that moves and insta pop. Basically, the advantages of not having to worry about range comes with some extreme drawbacks.
Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 01:47:00 - [12] Originally by: IamBen In terms of balance, look at the following: Sniper megas can insta pop most frigs or other frigs that are sitting at a gate. In addition, the Scimitar/Eagle combo has no equivalent in missle ships. There is no way to remotely boost your missle speed/explosion velocity the way a Eagle or Mega/tempest can be boosted to nail anything that moves and insta pop smaller targets. I guess that is nice if game balance is resting on the activity of "gate camping". And anyway, the trouble with guns is that they miss miss miss. If someone gets too close and a gunship has only large guns, then they are screwed. Missiles will work at the close range too. Sorry about my English
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.04.03 02:00:00 - [13] Umm missile dps sucks - seems like a big trade off to me. Wherever you went - here you are.
Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 02:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Ghoest Umm missile dps sucks - seems like a big trade off to me. I haven't been able to determine that. Could you provide some numbers? Sorry about my English
Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:13:00 - [15] ? Sorry about my English
Zavernus Hamarabi	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:24:00 - [16] Missles kinda suck dps wise. Compare a ferox dps to a thorax dps. You'll see what i mean.
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:33:00 - [17] the dps is in favor of guns for frigs while it's other way round for battleships. -> missile dps is comparable to guns missile users have to worry about 2 things to get good damage, target's velocity and sig radius. gun users have to worry about 3 things to get good damage, target's velocity(+direction), target's sig radius and own velocity(+direction). -> missiles are easier to use - phew! dodged the mods on this sig!
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi Missles kinda suck dps wise. Compare a ferox dps to a thorax dps. You'll see what i mean. a ferox is not a missile ship though - phew! dodged the mods on this sig!
Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:42:00 - [19] Edited by: Chris theNinjaPirate on 03/04/2006 03:42:12 So wow easier to use and more powerful. This game is having good balance! Sorry about my English
Benglada	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:46:00 - [20] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 03/04/2006 03:44:19 Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi Missles kinda suck dps wise. Compare a ferox dps to a thorax dps. You'll see what i mean. a ferox is not a missile ship though Caracal with heavies(+2dm) vs. thorax with 250mm rails(+2dm), dps on structure caracal: 229.632 dps max range 126,562.5 m thorax: 167.126 dps max range 36,000 m + (15,000 m * 2) = 66,000m thorax(iron): 104.454 dps max range 87,600 m Thorax with blasters nubbin. And a ferox is a missile ship, the only rail bonus it has is for range which is a moot point with missiles anyway. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Reatu Krentor	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Benglada Thorax with blasters nubbin. And a ferox is a missile ship, the only rail bonus it has is for range which is a moot point with missiles anyway. so you want to compare a short range ship with a long range ship ? so who's the nubbin then ? ferox has no missile bonus, thus not a missile ship - phew! dodged the mods on this sig!
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Chris theNinjaPirate Hi I was looking at missiles and guns. People say this game is pretty balanced so I am trying to figure out where the tradeoff is. I assume there is one. ... So where is the trade off? A trade off means "both have their plusses and minuses". I can only see minuses with guns, and plusses with missiles? Missiles: No transversal. + No falloff. - They always hit, but if the target is small or fast, the damage sucks. - If the target is both, your 0.2dmg done will be negated by passive shield regen alone. - Can pick your damage type. + CCP picked your good damage type for you. Kinetic. - Fitting reqs are setup differently, but missile ships get the grid/cpu alterations to balance that. +&- You cannot change your range by swapping ammo type (exluding t2). - Precision missiles are godly. + Every other t2 missile sucks balls unless you're going up against much bigger targets, and you arent tanking. - Missiles don't use cap. + The majority of missile boats will come at you with kinetic missiles due to their fixed bonuses. - Defenders, in the rare cases they work, negate parts of your damage. - A well timed smartbomb will cripple your DPS. If you're dumb enough to fire all missiles at the same time, you can end up with 0 dps. - Missiles have to travel to the target. - Missiles with high skills don't match the DPS of guns with high skills. - The Caldari fighter doesn't use missiles(?). - There is no cruiser-sized unguided missile like rockets for frigs and torps for BS. - Missiles are faster to skill up, supposedly because of the fact their skills came much later than gunnery ones. + T1 BCUs take more cpu/grid than any other T2 dmg mod, T2 BCUs take even more. - The missile frig is arguibly an inty raping machine with 4 rocket launchers. + There is no missile AF until the next content patch. - The Hawk's current form is a joke, see above note. - The Caldari, being a supposed 'missile race' doesn't have a single one of it's 'best' ships of any size being a missile ship(excluding inty and upcoming teir2 BC?). The Tier3 Caldari BS will be a rail platform. - Missiles suck ass to podkill with (imo). - Missile DPS is painfully bad with low skills and t1 eq. There is only 1 missile HAC. - The Cerb pwns. + I can't think of any others, and I'm pretty tired so alot of these might just be ramblings. I know when I had maybe 50k or so in missiles and used tech1 heavies on my Caracal, it was so painfully slow to kill things that I actually went back to my merlin until I had the isk to buy some named launchers, but this was pre-rmr, now they have the ROF of standard launchers I believe. Still, while the burst damage was nice, my Merlin with 2 named 125s and 2 standard launchers was more useful than my caracal, with the exception of my caracal hitting at a sweet 45km at the time. Originally by: Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:49:00 - [23] Edited by: Chris theNinjaPirate on 03/04/2006 03:49:37 Originally by: Benglada Thorax with blasters nubbin. Sorry, but what is the point in comparing a Thorax with blasters to a Ferox with missiles? I laugh at blasters anyway, unless you have top skills you will just be dead by the time you get in range. Missiles, even with low skills, you can kill before they get in range! Sorry about my English
Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 03:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia CCP picked your good damage type for you. Kinetic. - The majority of missile boats will come at you with kinetic missiles due to their fixed bonuses. - I don't follow here. Please explain? Quote: You cannot change your range by swapping ammo type (exluding t2). - Why care? Missiles damage is very good anyway. Quote: Defenders, in the rare cases they work, negate parts of your damage. - And probably nobody will gimp their setup with these? It uses a high slot. Moving fast can dodge guns without any help from modules. Quote: Missiles suck ass to podkill with (imo). - If you warp scramble the pod, you will be able to kill it. If you can't lock it down, it will escape anyway, even if you are using guns? Thank you for the reply. Sorry about my English
Wrayeth	Posted - 2006.04.03 05:02:00 - [25] There are a number of reasons to use a gunboat over a missile boat. First and foremost, turrets inflict damage instantly; missiles take time to hit. In some circumstances, the target can even warp out before the missile gets there. This basically makes missiles useless at long range and in fleet battles. Secondly, turrets average more DPS than missiles. Third, and quite often overlooked, is that dedicated missile boats are always shield tankers. They have very limited low slots and powergrid, meaning they can't armor tank effectively even if you want to. Moreover, they have issues fitting modules like webs, microwarpdrives, etc. limited midslots, unless they want to have no tank to speak of. This is a massive drawback and the reason why I usually use my tempest for mobile ops, since my raven doesn't have enough midslots, grid, or CPU to run a MWD or AB along with its tank. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Chris theNinjaPirate	Posted - 2006.04.03 05:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Wrayeth Third, and quite often overlooked, is that dedicated missile boats are always shield tankers. They have very limited low slots and powergrid, meaning they can't armor tank effectively even if you want to. Moreover, they have issues fitting modules like webs, microwarpdrives, etc. limited midslots, unless they want to have no tank to speak of. However this just makes shield/missile ships able to tank and gank. A Tempest or Geddon or Mega can not tank and gank, because it must choose to use its low slots for damage or for tanking. A missile boat can tank in mids, gank in lows. Right? Sorry about my English
Wrayeth	Posted - 2006.04.03 05:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Chris theNinjaPirate However this just makes shield/missile ships able to tank and gank. A Tempest or Geddon or Mega can not tank and gank, because it must choose to use its low slots for damage or for tanking. A missile boat can tank in mids, gank in lows. Right? That's not exactly true. The tempest can run a shield tank in the mids and gyrostabs in the lows. Hell, even armor tanked it can run two gyrostabs (with the tank consisting of a heavy cap injector, two large accomodation armor reps, and two energized adaptive nano II's) on an autocannon setup. It's possible to do something similar with the 'geddon - 4 slot tank, the rest damage and fitting mod. I'm not certain about the mega or apoc, because I never tried it with either (and can't fly the mega yet). Quote: Sorry about my English No worries. It was quite readable - in fact, your grammar in those sentences was better than that of some native English speakers. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.04.03 07:45:00 - [28] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 03/04/2006 03:46:29 Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 03/04/2006 03:44:19 Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi Missles kinda suck dps wise. Compare a ferox dps to a thorax dps. You'll see what i mean. a ferox is not a missile ship though Caracal with heavies(+2dm) vs. thorax with 250mm rails(+2dm), dps on structure caracal(scourge): 229.632 dps max range 126,562.5 m caracal(havoc): 183.706 dps max range 126,562.5 m thorax: 167.126 dps max range 36,000 m + (15,000 m * 2) = 66,000m thorax(iron): 104.454 dps max range 87,600 m Add the drone damage for the thorax if you want to make a fair comparison of the dps. Caldari have poor drone space. The other races have decent drone space, with gallente obviously coming out on top with added damage to drones as well (on some ships). So if you want to compare dps, please add the drones to make it fair. Thanks. --- "Automatic override. Manual control overridden by autopilot. Please wait for operation to complete. You can override the automatic autopilot override in 28 seconds. Then you can make it wait"
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.04.03 08:07:00 - [29] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 03/04/2006 08:12:40 Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Reatu Krentor Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 03/04/2006 03:46:29 Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 03/04/2006 03:44:19 Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi Missles kinda suck dps wise. Compare a ferox dps to a thorax dps. You'll see what i mean. a ferox is not a missile ship though Caracal with heavies(+2dm) vs. thorax with 250mm rails(+2dm), dps on structure caracal(scourge): 229.632 dps max range 126,562.5 m caracal(havoc): 183.706 dps max range 126,562.5 m thorax: 167.126 dps max range 36,000 m + (15,000 m * 2) = 66,000m thorax(iron): 104.454 dps max range 87,600 m Add the drone damage for the thorax if you want to make a fair comparison of the dps. Caldari have poor drone space. The other races have decent drone space, with gallente obviously coming out on top with added damage to drones as well (on some ships). So if you want to compare dps, please add the drones to make it fair. Thanks. the comparison is actualy fair as he is comparing missiles to turrets, not ferox to thorax. on the other side, you are also right, drones on thorax cannot be compared with ferox and they give a big boost. ------------------------------ if you want peace, prepare for war ... ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2006.04.03 08:31:00 - [30] chris my main acc, this one ;) is a pure caldari one and uses missiles since the beginning. now i fly zealots and other turret ships with another acc, and turrets are so much more useful in many situations, why dont u just try to fly a caracal in a group and find out? btw im talkin bout pvp, pve dont matters much. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.

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