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Eve is just fine for newbies; no game changes are needed.

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Rells	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:42:00 - [1] I have played 20 different MMOGs and I have to say the game that is the most newbie friendly is Eve. So much so that I am actually astonished that there are no less than three, "Help the nbewbies by changing the game," posts on the first page alone. These posts come up every so often, perpetrated by those that know little about Eve in general and even less about PvP. Shall I enumerate where these people are wrong? The Newbie in PvP: You frequently hear that the newbie has no chance in PvP, the proponets usually comparing skill point values and goggling at the chances. This is pure absolute rubbish as my Corp has proven time and time again. In DAoC or EQ or any other game, a newbie at level 2 couldnt kill a level 50 player. Not tens of thousands of them could because the level 50 player is essentially immune to the level 2s. Not so in Eve. You give me 20 newbies two weeks old and three hours with them and I will put them against any 30 million skillpoint vetran in his BS. In fact, any vetran in his BS would warp away from that because they would know that they are hosed. Give me another week with them training the right skills and 3 30 million SP vetrans in thier BSes would die to the newbs if they hung around. SP dont give you immunity in this game, they merely let you do more things and advance your ability to do certain things. This in no way precludes a newbie from killing a vetran. A vetran caught in the wrong setup at the wrong time will get toasted by the 2 week old newbie that has the courage to fight and the desire to win. The Learning Skills: I see several people reccomending that the new players to this game being given a boost to the learning skills so that they can "catch up" to the vetran players. As we have seen earlier there is no need whatsoever to "catch up" at all. A newbie player that is well motivated can be quite compeditive with a vetran player assuming he uses the tools at his disposal. Improper use of tools or poor skills can kill a vetran as much as a newb. For example, when this char was only three weeks old I killed some fool in his Claw with my cormerant because he didnt know how to use all those expensive tools at his disposal. The learning skills are a bargain you make. You exchange some time now for some time later. Yes, if you train all your advanced learnings to 4 now you can learn faster but you trade time for doing that. The essence of Eve is making decisions and accepting tradeoffs. Wanting it all tomorrow would make the game shallow and not worth playing. But how can I catch up to the vetrans? Again there is no need to catch up at all. Eve is a very open ended game with endless possibilities. That is the reason that I am playing it now instead of all of those other games. There is no need to race to level 50 or race to a battleship. A 200 million isk battleship will die to 15 million in tech 1 ships quite easily. But as a newbie I cant afford to buy X or Y. Then you need to acquire knowledge and friends, not skillpoints. With friends you can take on harder rats, more challenging missions and accomplish more mining than you could yourself. Eve is a very social game, its not "soloable" in any meaningful way. But then every MMOG that has been made soloable has seen a catastrophic drop in both subscriptions and social interraction in the game. When people can get the same rewards soloing as in a team, they dont bother teaming up. When the whole game is soloable its quickly booring and people leave. Conclusion: Eve is an enormously newbie friendly game. Between organizations like mine to learn PvP, Eve University to learn other things and the fact that there is no immunity no matter how high you are, the game is very accessible to anyone. In a game where people are posting about successful piracy with trial account chars, the arguments of Eve being newbie hostile fall flat on their face. Through knowledge, not SP, you will be empowered. -- Rells ◄ Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? ◄ Agony Unleashed PvP University: ◄ Click here to find out more!
Tachy	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:45:00 - [2] The rookies already got two stages of boosts to their skill training: Learning skills from the start of EVE. Implants a bit later. They used to be RARE. Quite a while later Advanced learning skills. Specialisation helps a lot to get a toe into the door. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Alliaanna Dalaii	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:49:00 - [3] /signed good post. Alliaanna Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-=
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:52:00 - [4] the point about newbies teaming up with more experienced players esp for NPCing - PVPing and mission looting is a good one - helping to loot for a split of the loot on level 4 missions is probably a great idea. Helps acquire ISK to do other stuff.
Valkazm	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:54:00 - [5] Thank you for this good post and well written one with good valid points .. Its nice to see that some people think alike more power to you and nice to hear something positive then i want to PWN more threads ..
Herring	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:56:00 - [6] I must agree with the OP here. Certain amounts of complexity make a game fun. Gameplay should not be made EASIER... Look at what happened to SWG when the SOE execs thought there was 'too much reading' in the game....they simplified the hell out of it, and everyone and their dog hit the road.
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.04.04 11:58:00 - [7] it all comes down to time with all the new skill someone said it would take 8 years to train everything on offer atm leading to specilisation at about the 6-12 month mark THe game is long term in nature anyway. Short term WOWers get bored easily or come and go a fair bit from the game
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:02:00 - [8] I agree. I did many of those things you speak of when i started. FYI ive NEVER run a mission in my game time, all the missions ive done have been with other people etc EVE is about community and TEAM play. --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Flovoo Jakaaru	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:04:00 - [9] "In DAoC or EQ or any other game, a newbie at level 2 couldnt kill a level 50 player. Not tens of thousands of them could because the level 50 player is essentially immune to the level 2s. Not so in Eve." Thats kind of a moot point because in DAoC especially, you can PvP from level 5 to 45 and level up from killing other players without ever being in the situation where your opponent is more than 3 levels above you. You don't even have to grind for XP now.
Salo Koda	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:06:00 - [10] As a fairly new player myself (first character just broke 1 mil sp, combat character that I play mostly now is only at 250k), I agree with what you've said, and I feel no disadvantage to anyone who has 40 million points. Honestly I don't want any sort of huge boosts to make me catch up, I really enjoy the way it is now.
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:13:00 - [11] Originally by: Salo Koda As a fairly new player myself (first character just broke 1 mil sp, combat character that I play mostly now is only at 250k), I agree with what you've said, and I feel no disadvantage to anyone who has 40 million points. Honestly I don't want any sort of huge boosts to make me catch up, I really enjoy the way it is now. Well done. you get eve its refreshing seeing the new players actually talk up. the majority if the peeps posting about new players needing a boost are not new at all. --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Makhan	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:16:00 - [12] We don't need more threads on this topic, goonfleet allready proved that newbs can make a big difference.
Asnar	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:16:00 - [13] Nice post Rells. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Makhan We don't need more threads on this topic, goonfleet allready proved that newbs can make a big difference. Yeah they proved that new players can do fine in eve if they work with the older players... Interaction is the key to eve. --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Mike Moss	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:29:00 - [15] I feel a bit chastened by your post, but only a bit. I'm a new player, I signed up for six months recurring, I'm here for the duration. So, I'm not whining, I'm trying to help. Nor am I wanting to "catch up" in any sense, I could care less. I too am against cheapening or oversimpifying the game. But I think CCP could make the learning skills less of an intrusion in the skill tree than they seem to me to be. It is not a matter of simplifying the game or dumbing it down, or making the learning skills go away. I just think that how the learning skills are implemented could be improved, made fun and not drudgery. I would like to see two separate skill training categories for each character, one with only the learning skills, and the other with everything else. One skill could be trained in each category simultaneously. Learning skill training time would be increased to compensate and keep overall levelup time the same. Prospective new players would find steady progress being made on both fronts much more attractive, I think. I also want a queue for the skills. I hate getting up at 3:00 in the morning to start training a new skill. Other games may make me feel chained to an online grind, but EVE makes me feel like I am chained to the alarm clock. Of course, Little Oliver always wants more gruel! I would also like to see all three characters able to level up skills at the same time. But would CCP lose money or make money from this? Only the guy with the accounting spreadsheets at CCP knows for sure.
Asnar	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:31:00 - [16] Edited by: Asnar on 04/04/2006 12:34:43 Originally by: Mike Moss than they seem to me to be. And there where it goes wrong... you're WRONG. STop trying to change the game based on a problem that only exists in your head.' And you can stop and change what skill your training at any time. There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever to get up at 3am to change a skill. You're in powergamer mode... and EVE doesn't do anything for the powergamer at ALL. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:39:00 - [17] yeah mike its a problem with your view of things not the game itself. Trust me! Im a noob, bear with me :P
Happydayz	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:40:00 - [18] Learning skills are a trade off. Short term sacrifice for a long term gain. Whether you want to make it or not is purely up to you. It can be a pain, but honestly it is hardly a requirement. You have plenty of time to do it later on in your career, especially if you aren't focused on getting into T2 ships in the short term As for skill queues: yeah, its annoying. But it prevents people from farming characters on trial accounts to sell. It's also a fact of life for online games. I remember playing Utopia (web based game) and waking up in the midle of the night to send my orcs out on another attack.
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Happydayz Learning skills are a trade off. Short term sacrifice for a long term gain. Whether you want to make it or not is purely up to you. It can be a pain, but honestly it is hardly a requirement. You have plenty of time to do it later on in your career, especially if you aren't focused on getting into T2 ships in the short term Balance has been restored --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:44:00 - [20] Methinks PvP and PvE are fine for newbs, especially after Assault Frigates have been introduced into the game. Need not be a miner then something later, anymore. Not like when I first tried. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Methinks PvP and PvE are fine for newbs, especially after Assault Frigates have been introduced into the game. Need not be a miner then something later, anymore. Not like when I first tried. yep when i first startd the option was to mine or run missions there we no advanced frigs for me to combat those bigger plays with or anything. --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Anfelina Adante	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:48:00 - [22] I agree that skills should be left the way they are. However, there are a couple of observations I like to make. The first is that the newbies only think about who is ahead of them, they never say anything about who joins after them. If CCP nerfs the skills for them now...when a person joins six months from now and says, 'Hey, I can't catch up...make skills easier.' How will the people calling for changes now feel? Second is- Why are they concerned about somebody else's character? Are you not in the game to play your character and have fun?
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:49:00 - [23] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 04/04/2006 12:50:35 Originally by: Anfelina Adante I agree that skills should be left the way they are. However, there are a couple of observations I like to make. The first is that the newbies only think about who is ahead of them, they never say anything about who joins after them. If CCP nerfs the skills for them now...when a person joins six months from now and says, 'Hey, I can't catch up...make skills easier.' How will the people calling for changes now feel? Second is- Why are they concerned about somebody else's character? Are you not in the game to play your character and have fun? Cant blame them. They will have to change/adapt to EvE's mentality. It is about skill levels and not skill points. Skill level == unlocks new special powers (like Guildwars style) Skill points have no meaning other than the long wait. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Uther Doull	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:50:00 - [24] Originally by: Mike Moss I too am against cheapening or oversimpifying the game. But I think CCP could make the learning skills less of an intrusion in the skill tree than they seem to me to be. i would never tell a new player to do the learning skills first and foremost... first train up some skills you will be using, like frigate and basic combat/mining skills, then, only after you can do some stuff ingame, should you do learning skills. that way you don't have to wait for the learning skills to finish before you can actually play the game. Quote: I would like to see two separate skill training categories for each character, one with only the learning skills, and the other with everything else. One skill could be trained in each category simultaneously. Learning skill training time would be increased to compensate and keep overall levelup time the same. Prospective new players would find steady progress being made on both fronts much more attractive, I think. i don't think this is needed... if anything it would be less efficient Quote: I also want a queue for the skills. I hate getting up at 3:00 in the morning to start training a new skill. Other games may make me feel chained to an online grind, but EVE makes me feel like I am chained to the alarm clock. don't set your alarm at 3 in the morning, switch to a long(er) skill before you go to bed, then switch back to the nearly completed skill when you know you can be at the pc when it finishes. you won't lose any sp doing this Quote: Of course, Little Oliver always wants more gruel! I would also like to see all three characters able to level up skills at the same time. But would CCP lose money or make money from this? Only the guy with the accounting spreadsheets at CCP knows for sure. in MMOG's where you level by playing, you can only play (and thus level) 1 character at a time, regardless of how many chars you canhave on an account. why should eve be different? alts have many uses, even if they have had 0 training time
Lystar	Posted - 2006.04.04 12:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Happydayz Learning skills are a trade off. Short term sacrifice for a long term gain. Whether you want to make it or not is purely up to you. It can be a pain, but honestly it is hardly a requirement. You have plenty of time to do it later on in your career, especially if you aren't focused on getting into T2 ships in the short term As for skill queues: yeah, its annoying. But it prevents people from farming characters on trial accounts to sell. It's also a fact of life for online games. I remember playing Utopia (web based game) and waking up in the midle of the night to send my orcs out on another attack. My thoughts exactly. This is my main, with a whopping 1.2 million skill points. This is what I did. It's not the 'right' way, and I freely admit it's not the most efficient. Just a suggestion for other newbs. I learned all the base learning skills to 3, then played around with other stuff that I wanted to do. Got into a cruiser, worked on the supplemental skills I needed to be able to actually fly and fight it. Then went back to the learning skills for a little while (all at 4 or 5 now). I think it helps to have some long term plans. I'm currently getting some advanced learning skills. You just have to remember it's not a race. You certainly don't have to spend 2 months training the learning skills before you do anything. You can if you want. Point is, you can start having fun in this game from day one.
Rells	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:41:00 - [26] Learning skills have been battered about in analysis for a while. The basic conclusion is that you only gain from base learning skills at 5 if you 1) get the advanced learning skill to 4, and 2) Are working on really big timed skills. If your skills are only for a couple of hours to a couple of days, you only gain a very small amount. Over the LONG term the learning skills pay off but that long term is one year or more. A newbie can train up and be very effective in pvp quite quickly. The problem is people have the wrong focus. -- Rells ◄ Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? ◄ Agony Unleashed PvP University: ◄ Click here to find out more!
Laythun	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Rells Learning skills have been battered about in analysis for a while. The basic conclusion is that you only gain from base learning skills at 5 if you 1) get the advanced learning skill to 4, and 2) Are working on really big timed skills. If your skills are only for a couple of hours to a couple of days, you only gain a very small amount. Over the LONG term the learning skills pay off but that long term is one year or more. A newbie can train up and be very effective in pvp quite quickly. The problem is people have the wrong focus. You win the thread. --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
Luc Daumier	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:53:00 - [28] Originally by: Lystar My thoughts exactly. This is my main, with a whopping 1.2 million skill points. This is what I did. It's not the 'right' way, and I freely admit it's not the most efficient. Just a suggestion for other newbs. I learned all the base learning skills to 3, then played around with other stuff that I wanted to do. Got into a cruiser, worked on the supplemental skills I needed to be able to actually fly and fight it. Then went back to the learning skills for a little while (all at 4 or 5 now). I think it helps to have some long term plans. I'm currently getting some advanced learning skills. You just have to remember it's not a race. You certainly don't have to spend 2 months training the learning skills before you do anything. You can if you want. Point is, you can start having fun in this game from day one. I kind of recognise this. :) This is my main also, 2.2M SP atm. I didn't start off with trainig all learning skills to lvl5 right away. Though I trained them to lvl3-4 very early I made sure that I got trained some usful skills (indy for some trading/hauling, cruisers for doing lvl2 missions, engineering, electronics, tackler skills for some pvp ). The way I see it is that I gave up a few hundred k potential SP for a much more enjoyable first 2 months in EVE.
Remedial	Posted - 2006.04.04 13:57:00 - [29] Originally by: Rells Over the LONG term the learning skills pay off but that long term is one year or more. You can half your training time for every skill by training advanced learning to III. This process takes about five to six weeks. This means that it pays dividends in far less than a year out of proportion to the time you put into it. All you would need to do is save five or six weeks of training time over the course of ten or twelve weeks - less than three months of training. And then whatever time you save after those three months stays with you for the rest of your character's life.
Rells	Posted - 2006.04.04 14:03:00 - [30] You have to calculate the time that you put into it. In order to break even you have to have 6 to 8 weeks of SAVINGS, not training. Im not saying they arent worth doing. Im just saying that a newb is just fine getting learnings to 3 or 4 and picking up a couple dozen other skills to be more effective then comming back to the learnings when they have some fun skills. But these are decisions we all have to make. When I rejoined the game and created this char, I got all my learnings to Advanced 4 right off but I wasnt playing the game then, just changing skills. I had a new baby and not much time to play so it was perfect timing. -- Rells ◄ Isnt it time you learned how to fight back? ◄ Agony Unleashed PvP University: ◄ Click here to find out more!

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