It has come to my attention that a Game Master known as "GM Thunder" has recently altered the topic text of the public channel "recruitment" to reflect a change of policy disallowing scamming and fraudulent activities to occur within the channel, or to be used as a channel with which to find targets for such activities.


It is my opinion, and the opinion of many other EVE Online players, that this is an encroachment upon the activities of players that use the recruitment channel.


Scamming has long been part of the EVE culture and has long been a promotional tool by CCP to draw new players to the game. The permission of such activities is a display of the truly sandbox nature of the harsh, hypercapitalistic EVE universe and the recent rule change in the recruitment channel encroaches on the true sandbox that the game provides for its players.


From TenTonHammer to PCGamer, the proliferation of EVE Online scams in gaming media has been a powerful driving force for EVE's current popularity. The draw of a true sandbox where your actions have legitimate consequences is a very powerful niche that isn't filled by any other game, and that includes the dangers of interacting with players on a regular basis. From the fall of BoB at the hands of a disgruntled director to the massive thefts of iterations of large EVE banks and investments to supercapital holding scams, the scamming culture is very deep-rooted and an important part of EVE Online.


Additionally, this change of rules presents a considerable workload increase on GMs as well as issues with burden of proof; cases where recruitment is used as a "hunting ground" will be exceptionally difficult to prove and even more difficult to enforce punishment for the use of such channels.


I would like this petition to be escalated to a senior GM who can reverse this recent change and, if the change is not reverted, respond to this petition with a clarification and justification as to why this new rule has been placed.


The full text for the recruitment channel's topic will be pasted below for easy reference.






[18:16:37] EVE System > Channel MOTD: Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion is not permitted.No scamming is allowed in this channel and this includes, but not limited to, using the recruitment channel as a platform to find or target players to scam. As per subject, we ask everyone to use their best judgment before contracting assets or ISK as part of corporationGÇÖs recruitment process and any deals made or finalized outside this channel are done at your own risk and responsibility.An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.

stuff

whine & butthurt

Wrong. What they do is checking chat logs in their channel. Their channel, their rules.

somehow I feel this isn't going to hurt your devilish profession a whole heck of alot.

Thats not the point, the point is that in CCPs rush to make the game safe for new players by removing concord insurance payouts, and 'no scamming basically anywhere because now the person just says you did it in the recruitment channel' they're just going to drive away the current player base.

Thats not the point, the point is that in CCPs rush to make the game safe for new players by removing concord insurance payouts, and 'no scamming basically anywhere because now the person just says you did it in the recruitment channel' they're just going to drive away the current player base.

Thats been CCP's constant problem, pissing off what they have in hopes they get something more, and the something more never materializes, and for a company that just had to lay off 20% of its staff, losing more customers isn't really that great of an idea.

And you can say boo hoo all you want, but there will be a tipping point where the loss becomes unsustainable for a small company like them and they just have to close the game out.

At some point its time to stop reaching for the sky and take care of what you have at home.

This might as well be a blanket ban on scamming in a game made famous by scams, because its so easy to work around its ********.



And you are a ******, high line scams have resulted in more EVE subs then any advertising they've ever done. The scams made EVE.

Maybe you should take a step back and realize that CCP want's to make sure pilots have some semblience of confidence that when they join a corporation and not worry about getting ####ed over out the door.

Silly tard, goons =/= Eve.

Btw, your stuff and sov, can I haz?

CCP is safeguarding its own bottom line. There should be no explanation, none is needed.

More importantly, U MAD BRO?

I would like this petition to be escalated to a senior GM who can reverse this recent change and, if the change is not reverted, respond to this petition with a clarification and justification as to why this new rule has been placed.

You sound like an old friend of mine named T'Elk, needless to say literally everyone stopped listening to him after about 3 sentences.

Explain how there is no bottom line needed in a Sandbox game? I have nothing wrong with protecting noobs, I doubt even Goons has a problem with that, but this current idea has a lot of grey areas that at the very least should be explained.

That or at least refine the idea to something more clearcut, like scamming a character of a certain date or SP total.

But seriously every time you post U mad a kitten dies.

The original letter is very clear about its purpose.




In other words, if the change in wording on the recruitment channel is not a sanctioned change by CCP please revert it. If it is an official change in policy, please explain it.

In addition, I would like to know why such a change occurred without public scrutiny and feedback.

I don't think that list of requests is unreasonable and I do not think it should occur without comment and scrutiny.

It should not simply appear out of the blue and we should not accept such large changes to the game when they occur on a day to day basis out of the blue.

[18:16:37] EVE System > Channel MOTD: Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion is not permitted.No scamming is allowed in this channel and this includes, but not limited to, using the recruitment channel as a platform to find or target players to scam. As per subject, we ask everyone to use their best judgment before contracting assets or ISK as part of corporationGÇÖs recruitment process and any deals made or finalized outside this channel are done at your own risk and responsibility.An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.

I made the relevant part of the MOTD bold and underlined for those that didn't train reading comprehension to level 5.

It's very clear that no scamming is allowed in the recruitment channel. Does not say you cannot scam, cheat, steal and lie your way through every other aspect in EVE. Goons can rest easy now that their main entertainment stream hasn't been removed.

No more tears required ladies, go about your business now.

I made the relevant part of the MOTD bold and underlined for those that didn't train reading comprehension to level 5.

It's very clear that no scamming is allowed in the recruitment channel. Does not say you cannot scam, cheat, steal and lie your way through every other aspect in EVE. Goons can rest easy now that their main entertainment stream hasn't been removed.

No more tears required ladies, go about your business now.

So what happens when you scam me and i just claim you did it from the recruitment channel, you know, that channel that is spammed 23/7?

You expect me to believe that CCP keeps accurate logs of that, this, the company that can't tell you if your ship was in a tower or not?

All you need do is make the claim, and with CCP's recent heavy handed ban first ask questions later it opens up a world of problems.

Not to mention that corp scamming is as old as the game, why is it suddenly illegitimate to recruitment scam?

Like ive been saying..... its just one ####ing channel.

Bolded the part we're all concerned about, bub. The way that's worded makes actions outside the channel subject to the arbitrary whims of whatever banhappy butan-jockey is manning the GM posts nowadays.

-

So let me get this straight, you are saying that as CCP don't keep accurate logs (allegedly) that if I were to scam you and you cry that it was from the recruitment channel that CCP would check the logs that they supposedly don't keep accurately anyway to see that I did in fact scam you from the recruitment channel?


Once again for the PL idiots, they only asked that YOU DO NOT SCAM IN THE RECRUITMENT CHANNEL. (made that last bit stand out for you as you seem to be unable to comprehend the easy bits)

][18:16:37] EVE System > Channel MOTD: Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion is not permitted.No scamming is allowed in this channel and this includes, but not limited to, using the recruitment channel as a platform to find or target players to scam. As per subject, we ask everyone to use their best judgment before contracting assets or ISK as part of corporationGÇÖs recruitment process and any deals made or finalized outside this channel are done at your own risk and responsibility.An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.

*SIGH* No, you emboldened the part scammers are concerned about. I suspect the vast majority of EVE doesn't even know there is a recruitment channel. Even if they did, I doubt they would care that PL/Goons can't get their jollies on scamming the gullible.

If you are that worried about being banned, don't scam anyone. If you don't care, scam away.

What you mean that channel that opens up every time you join an NPC corp or start a new account?



No this is stupid, thats the point, EVE wouldn't have half its players if it weren't for the high profile scams that have gone on in it (cited as one of the biggest draws to the game, the old GHSC scams)

[ know as dumb as you are that its hard to get your head around that, but you...

wait for it....\

DON'T NEED LOGS TO PROVE ANY OF IT

All they need do with that wording is suggest you contacted them after you were in the recruitment channel and suddenly they're a criminal, which is stupid.

Since you are so dumb, that you need everything layed out plainly for you:







A goon was nice enough to do it for you.

Now the easy opt out for ANY SCAM is to say you were first contacted through the recruitment channel. You then probably get whatever was scammed back, and the scammer banned.

I know as dumb as you are that its hard to get your head around that, but you...

wait for it....\

DON'T NEED LOGS TO PROVE ANY OF IT

All they need do with that wording is suggest you contacted them after you were in the recruitment channel and suddenly they're a criminal, which is stupid.

Recruitment scamming is an old tradition in EVE, scamming period is an old tradition in EVE, thats brought a lot of business, this basically kills it in one sentence, by giving the person scammed the option of just saying "He met me in the recruitment channel then scammed me outside of it".

Silly tard, goons =/= Eve.

Btw, your stuff and sov, can I haz?

I see a lot of complaints about 'Goonwaffe scamming newbies'.
Newbies don't have any isk, why would we scam them?

edit: This entire thing could be solved by a dev coming in here and saying "Yes this is our new policy" or "No, this is not our policy."

Recruitment channel can only be managed by GM/Dev's

Ah, another new fool with no conception of CCP's schizophrenic history on GM pronouncements at various levels. Any "the logs show nothing" idiot can change the channel. Anyone with experience with the petition system knows that such people are reversed on appeal to higher authority 50% the time (and then reversed again and that's reversed once more, because :Icelanders:).

The first layer of GMs are often regarded as a joke. They rarely seem to know anything about the game, or have more than a nodding relationship with logic. That's why someone wants to hear from a higher authority.

The only fool here is the one ignoring the obvious.

But since you can't see the obvious...you only have yourself to blame...so please...grow up....grow a brain....and go to your cave troll.

-1/10

Don't worry, they don't need to argue with you, or even try to have a relevant discussion with you.

All they have to do to make you look dumber than you currently look is flood all the major news outlets with another nasty story about CCP.

They've shown they'll revert a change in a heart beat if it causes bad press.

Stupid goonies spent the summer fixing your game, they must be ******** right??

Ok...so quit your subscription.

Because that's what it REALLY took to get CCP to change.

Lets be honest now my foolish friend.

No they dont....

Recruitment channel can only be managed by GM/Dev's

If that's what it says...it's policy...period.

Never in the history of the world has an exasperated minion said or done something that contradicted actual policy.

Luckily all it would take to solve this mystery/debate/whathaveyou is a dev coming in here and saying "Yes this is our new policy" or "No, this is not our policy."

How about "Yes, this is our policy, and it applies to all of Eve, not just a channel?"

How about "Yes, this is our policy, and it applies to all of Eve, not just a channel?" When a dog gets too feisty, it gets kicked. Very smart of you to try to stir up trouble against CCP and rest of Eve player base. Whatever "clarification" comes, it won't be the one you delusional tards are looking for.

Enjoy the gray area while it's still around.

Ok...so quit your subscription.

Because that's what it REALLY took to get CCP to change.

Lets be honest now my foolish friend.

Oh can I has your stuffs? 8)

don't see the big deal, there are many other player-operated chat channels with "no scamming" rules

if you don't like the new rule, set up your own recruitment channel and advertise it.

if you don't like the new rule, set up your own recruitment channel and advertise it.

don't see the big deal, there are many other player-operated chat channels with "no scamming" rules

Wrong. What they do is checking chat logs in their channel. Their channel, their rules.

I believe a "LOL, pwnd" is in order here.

The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD. However, the channel was still being used to scam players, hence the update and clarification of the GÇÿno scammingGÇÖ policy.

For your convenience I have included a copy of the previous MOTD:

'Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion and scamming are not permitted in this channel. An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.'

actually, by my interpretation.

he just clarified the older rule of no scamming in the channel, which goons don't do anyway.

Um, yeah. That's what I was getting at - everyone got all butthurt about this sudden policy change in the channel when, in fact, nothing changed.

Um, yeah. That's what I was getting at - everyone got all butthurt about this sudden policy change in the channel when, in fact, nothing changed.

Thus the LOL pwnd.

I believe a "LOL, pwnd" is in order here.

The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD. However, the channel was still being used to scam players, hence the update and clarification of the GÇÿno scammingGÇÖ policy.

For your convenience I have included a copy of the previous MOTD:

'Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion and scamming are not permitted in this channel. An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.'

The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD. However, the channel was still being used to scam players, hence the update and clarification of the GÇÿno scammingGÇÖ policy.

For your convenience I have included a copy of the previous MOTD:

'Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion and scamming are not permitted in this channel. An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.'

The recent update of the channel MOTD is not a policy change, scamming was not allowed in the recruitment channel before and it was stated in the previous MOTD. However, the channel was still being used to scam players, hence the update and clarification of the GÇÿno scammingGÇÖ policy.

For your convenience I have included a copy of the previous MOTD:

'Welcome to the recruitment channel. This channel is intended for those players looking to find a new corporation, as well as those looking to enlist new players. Other activities, such as non-recruitment discussion and scamming are not permitted in this channel. An additional recruitment source is the Alliance and Corporation Recruitment Center section of the forums.'

The current MOTD states that GMs are not responsible for any deals made outside of the channel, but it also states that the channel may not be used to find targets. This seems like a very vague "we might or might not enforce it, deal with it" clause. Could you clarify this?

has anyone actaully ever been done in by said "policy"?

A policy thats been in place for a rather long time according to a Seinor GM?

did it occur to people that most "i was scammed petitions" are likely tossed unless someone can produce a chat log as it was?

Meaning you can't use channel to find targets, then pull someone from channel into private chat in order to scam them, thus evading rule. Is it too obvious, or were you hoping that the MOTD doesn't say what it says?

In other words, GM Thunder has with that update created a situation where people will either be able to petition any and all scams they've endured if they've logged in to the recruitment channel, or he's created a rule which is unenforcable, and as such will only make people who do get scammed by people who aren't in the recruitment channel all the angrier because they'll be under the impression they're safe because they're in that channel.

I find it utterly pathetic that this thread has devolved into spliting hairs and consipiracy theroys.

Cry me a river...

CCP is running a business. You know, mouths to feed and bills to pay? You're driving away noobs - their customers. Any other company would have deleted your accounts ages ago. Instead of giving CCP credit for tolerating you tards for this long, you whine about it.

Btw, u mad bro?

Nobody scams newbies you dumb ****. They don't have anything to scam.

They scam vets looking for new corps.

So if I stumble upon someone in local who's also in recruitment, and I scam them, what's to stop them from reporting me to CCP for "using the recruitment channel to target him"?

Then you get banned, which improves the Eve experience for the rest of us.

Then you get banned, which improves the Eve experience for the rest of us.

Then you get banned, which improves the Eve experience for the rest of us.

I personally think that all scamming that's not at a corporate security level should be banned.

No market scams, no corp joining scams, just no.

If someone wants to join a corp and take its' wallet, that is a different thing that has more to do with the corp internal security.

Preying on individuals is a different matter. It's not new player friendly and certainly shouldn't be allowed in the recruitment forum.

+1 CCP!

That's not what I asked.

I guess this question is a ~hard~ question.

Page 1 of the Troll Handbook 101:

If you're asked a question you can't answer, try to insult the other guy's intelligence.

So if I stumble upon someone in local who's also in recruitment, and I scam them, what's to stop them from reporting me to CCP for "using the recruitment channel to target him"?

Let me repeat what's been repeated in this thread and others ad nauseum:

NEW PLAYERS ARE NOT WORTHWHILE SCAM MARKS.

Among all that goons, there must exist 2 brain cells to rub together.

butthurt

We have this great alliance called TEST that's blue to us, you should join it, you'd fit in.