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Carriers, Motherships, Titans - Whats with the ship space?

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HammaSlamma	Posted - 2006.04.07 22:33:00 - [1] Edited by: HammaSlamma on 07/04/2006 22:41:24 Edited by: HammaSlamma on 07/04/2006 22:34:55 Ok, as a quick back round, Ive been spending the past 2 months training for carriers and Motherships. Im awaiting delivery on it. Also note Im posting with an alt so I dont become a target to a hostile alliance. I was planning on moving some ships from empire in a few days with the carrier when I get it. Then someone pointed out that a ship, to be placed into a carrier has to be UNPACKED. Ok I thought, so they can carry half what I thought. Then I started looking at the numbers. Boy was I wrong. Carriers - 500,000 m3 Ship Bays - Cost for ship 1billion + insurance, fittings, fighters Motherships - 2,500,000 m3 Ship Bays - Cost 30 Billion + insurance, fittings, fighters Titan - 5,000,000 m3 Ship Bays - Cost Aprox 80 Billion + Fittings Tempest - 850,000 m3 Unpackaged - Smallest BS All other BS - More than 1,010,000m3 Unpackaged Ok. so here we see, the numbers. Carrier - No Battleships Mothership - 2 of any battleship Titan - FIVE tempests, or 4 Other and 1 Tempest So the biggest most expensive ship in the game. The titan, can only carry with it 500m in escort in its bay. The mothership, a 30 billion isk investment can only carry two. The carrier can carry none. A Carrier, Mothership, or Titan NEEDS escorts. The whole idea behind them is they can resupply fleets in large fights, or extended periods without a station. Logicaly they should carry a number of ships relative to what they cost and what they can support. They should also carry a number of ships relative to what should be used to defend them in the smallest gang possible and replace a battleship for HALF the members. They dont obviously. Alliance combat is HUGE. Not 5 people. This is what I feel a ship of these sizes and classes should beable to carry, unpackaged. Carriers - 5 of any type of Battleship, with room for 10 more cruisers and 20 frigates left. (when just battleships 6 / 7) Cost of escort vs ship 500 - 700m / 1billion Motherships - Mainstays of combat fleets, these ships require more protection They also have a cloning vat meaning a group that clone jumps to them should have enough ships to form a decent sized gang from what is in the hangars not a ragtag group of cruisers - 25 of any type of battleship, with room for 35 cruisers and 50 frigates left (just BS 35) Cost of escort vs ship 3.5 Billion / 30 billion Titans - Titans are the biggest, most expensive, most dangerous alliance weapon. A titan should have the ability to replace an entire fleets losses in a hostile enviroment after brining them with it in the jump bubble. Its a titan for gods sake. - 50 Battleships of any type, with room for 60 cruisers, 80 frigates left (Just BS 70) - Cost of escort vs ship 7 billion vs 80 BILLION As it stands now these ships carry barley enough ships to defend them selfs and replace losses in gangs they may be with. Not worth it IMO. After looking at the cost of escort vs cost of a ship I feel the carriers should get a boost in the ability to survive direct combat I.E more hitpoints and an increase in price to around 2.5 / 3 billion.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.04.07 22:39:00 - [2] They certainly could use more capacity. ~Victory is the weakness of the enemy. Industrial Giants
Blind Man	Posted - 2006.04.07 22:40:00 - [3] Originally by: HammaSlamma Titan - 5,000,000 m3 Ship Bays - Cost Aprox 80 Billion + Insurance, Fittings You can't insure titans.
HammaSlamma	Posted - 2006.04.07 22:41:00 - [4] Thanks for the info, the post has been edited to reflect this fact that was unknown to me.
Baun	Posted - 2006.04.07 23:27:00 - [5] Titans can jump groups of ships so its not imperative for them to have a higher replacement ship capacity. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Emno	Posted - 2006.04.07 23:30:00 - [6] your numbers seems based off the idea that you can fit a repackaged ship into these ships i was under the impression you cannot
Litus Arowar	Posted - 2006.04.07 23:34:00 - [7] I don't entirely agree that a titan should have such a huge amount of ship-carrying ability... I think it should have some, but be primarily a weapons platform, a flagship, and a re-fitting station... I think the mothership (and to a lesser extent the carrier) should be responsible for transporting assembled ships into combat... given that, I do agree that both these ships should be given substantial carrying capacity, perhaps not as extreme as what you state, but maybe that's not so extreme... it is on par with medium-large engagements, so perhaps you're right the reason I don't really want a titan carrying that many ships is because that would leave the mothership having fighters as its only advantage... sure it's a great advantage, but I'd preffer it if the mothership was still needed for fielding the fleet, while the titan was there as the flagship or wtfpwnmobile
HammaSlamma	Posted - 2006.04.07 23:48:00 - [8] A dread in siege mode does more damage than a titan man. Titans are SUPPOSED to be fleet platforms. Floating starbases with the ability to replace ships on the go. BTW all what I posted here are suggestions. Tweak em. A titan also should have alot of replacement ability because it costs ALOT to bring ships in jump with it. Once those ships are gone they can follow th titan from their home again, because the titan has already jumped.
HammaSlamma	Posted - 2006.04.08 04:54:00 - [9] Bumpage Dont let this thread die plz.
Mr Peanut	Posted - 2006.04.08 05:03:00 - [10] While I don't believe that the capital ships you mentioned SHOULD be able to hold THAT many ships, I think that everyone here agrees that they should be able to hold more than they currently do.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.04.08 08:00:00 - [11] I think the main concern is that it seems these ships were designed to replace lost ships with stored ones as much as supply them with ammo etc. The primary ships wouldnt be stored onboard, just the secondary ones. Of course...if a Freighter cant haul that many...one could reason that a warship shouldnt either. ~Victory is the weakness of the enemy. Industrial Giants
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.04.08 08:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Blind Man Originally by: HammaSlamma Titan - 5,000,000 m3 Ship Bays - Cost Aprox 80 Billion + Insurance, Fittings You can't insure titans. because you can't dock, right? Win a Cerberus!! sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.04.08 08:05:00 - [13] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Blind Man Originally by: HammaSlamma Titan - 5,000,000 m3 Ship Bays - Cost Aprox 80 Billion + Insurance, Fittings You can't insure titans. because you can't dock, right? They cant access insurance facilities, but they likely have the default insurance...I suppose we could ask someone to blow up their Nyx to find out for sure. ~Victory is the weakness of the enemy. Industrial Giants
Aloysius Knight	Posted - 2006.04.08 08:07:00 - [14] well id take 25 dreads over a titan any day as tiatins as they stand suck hard anyone who is gonna kill a titan will have as many dreads as they can get there to bbq the thing
HammaSlamma	Posted - 2006.04.08 13:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Eximius Josari I think the main concern is that it seems these ships were designed to replace lost ships with stored ones as much as supply them with ammo etc. The primary ships wouldnt be stored onboard, just the secondary ones. Of course...if a Freighter cant haul that many...one could reason that a warship shouldnt either. A valid arguement. Perhapse instead of giving the ships X amount of cargo we give them a bonus per skill level for ship storage ability. The carrier would get +1 Battleship, +3 Cruisers, and +5 frigates per level to be stored. The Mothership +4 BS, +5 Cruisers, +10 Frigates per level, and the Titan, which as a VERY expensive ship would be wasted transporting things inplace of afrieghter gets +10 BS per level + 15 Cruisers +20 Frigates. You could either make a new skill or link these to the carrier + titan skill. Please note that Cruiser slots cant be used for battleships in this version. At level 5 carrier a carrier can ONLY carry 5 battleships, 15 cruisers, and 25 frigates. If there isnt 15 cruisers in there you cant fit an extra BS, unless you guys feel thats cool too. As a side point, the ships sizes should be increased a little to show this.
Darpz	Posted - 2006.04.08 14:48:00 - [16] Originally by: HammaSlamma Originally by: Eximius Josari I think the main concern is that it seems these ships were designed to replace lost ships with stored ones as much as supply them with ammo etc. The primary ships wouldnt be stored onboard, just the secondary ones. Of course...if a Freighter cant haul that many...one could reason that a warship shouldnt either. A valid arguement. Perhapse instead of giving the ships X amount of cargo we give them a bonus per skill level for ship storage ability. The carrier would get +1 Battleship, +3 Cruisers, and +5 frigates per level to be stored. The Mothership +4 BS, +5 Cruisers, +10 Frigates per level, and the Titan, which as a VERY expensive ship would be wasted transporting things inplace of afrieghter gets +10 BS per level + 15 Cruisers +20 Frigates. You could either make a new skill or link these to the carrier + titan skill. Please note that Cruiser slots cant be used for battleships in this version. At level 5 carrier a carrier can ONLY carry 5 battleships, 15 cruisers, and 25 frigates. If there isnt 15 cruisers in there you cant fit an extra BS, unless you guys feel thats cool too. As a side point, the ships sizes should be increased a little to show this. I agree the Mothership and Titan really should hold a bit more but look at the size of a normal carrier, its barely bigger than a BS. why would something that size be able to fit multiple BS or hell even one The only good fix is a DEAD fix
Haniblecter Teg	Posted - 2006.04.08 14:55:00 - [17] Screw BS's in the hold, imagine what 100 AF's in the hold of a titan would do. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.04.08 14:58:00 - [18] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Screw BS's in the hold, imagine what 100 AF's in the hold of a titan would do. Get laughed at as the other side's Titan pilot activates his Doomsday Device?
Asurix	Posted - 2006.04.08 14:58:00 - [19] you can put packaged ship in cargohold and toss em out just like putting a package cruiser in a hauler when u pop the hauler the ship pops out also a mothership costs 15bill and a titan 20 or something to build
HammaSlamma	Posted - 2006.04.08 15:10:00 - [20] Originally by: Darpz I agree the Mothership and Titan really should hold a bit more but look at the size of a normal carrier, its barely bigger than a BS. why would something that size be able to fit multiple BS or hell even one Yea, I was thinking that. Like I said in the post directly above, maybe these ships should get a increase in size of the modle. Originally by: Asurix you can put packaged ship in cargohold and toss em out just like putting a package cruiser in a hauler when u pop the hauler the ship pops out also a mothership costs 15bill and a titan 20 or something to build Not true. Please dont say things you dont know about. These ships cant have packaged ships and your cost estimates are waaay off. Just look at the BPO prices for these things. Titans DONT cost 20 billion to build. Mother ships DONT cost 15bill to build. I think Ill evemail a TRUST guy and find out the true answer to the cost question but its much higher than what you stated.
Kerry Rose	Posted - 2006.04.08 16:59:00 - [21] Originally by: HammaSlamma [quote=Asurix you can put packaged ship in cargohold and toss em out just like putting a package cruiser in a hauler when u pop the hauler the ship pops out also a mothership costs 15bill and a titan 20 or something to build Not true. Please dont say things you dont know about. These ships cant have packaged ships and your cost estimates are waaay off. Just look at the BPO prices for these things. Titans DONT cost 20 billion to build. Mother ships DONT cost 15bill to build. I think Ill evemail a TRUST guy and find out the true answer to the cost question but its much higher than what you stated. i believe you can have the ships in ur cargo hold. sometimes i stick a shuttle if im going mining in low sec and just drop the shuttle at a safe spot. just thought i would say Quote: Worst dream I ever had was that BoB had conquered all of eve and all players were in BoB. We were all holding hands and mining veldspar .
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.04.08 17:22:00 - [22] Titans can pull other shups in space through the jump fold with it. You open a bridge that ships can all cross, not just the titan. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Asurix	Posted - 2006.04.08 17:29:00 - [23] Originally by: HammaSlamma Originally by: Darpz I agree the Mothership and Titan really should hold a bit more but look at the size of a normal carrier, its barely bigger than a BS. why would something that size be able to fit multiple BS or hell even one Yea, I was thinking that. Like I said in the post directly above, maybe these ships should get a increase in size of the modle. Originally by: Asurix you can put packaged ship in cargohold and toss em out just like putting a package cruiser in a hauler when u pop the hauler the ship pops out also a mothership costs 15bill and a titan 20 or something to build Not true. Please dont say things you dont know about. These ships cant have packaged ships and your cost estimates are waaay off. Just look at the BPO prices for these things. Titans DONT cost 20 billion to build. Mother ships DONT cost 15bill to build. I think Ill evemail a TRUST guy and find out the true answer to the cost question but its much higher than what you stated. I was in ASCN they have the BPO's for both a Titan and a Mothership, I think I know the building requirements
Audrea	Posted - 2006.04.08 17:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Baun Titans can jump groups of ships so its not imperative for them to have a higher replacement ship capacity. afaik the module to create jump portal wasnt seeded yet or something. Beside, what good is the clone vat bay, if u need to get into that far base in order to take a ship and use the jump portal to get back into the battle? ---------------------------------------------- All my posts are my own opinions and dont not represent any organization until stated otherwise.
Sidraket	Posted - 2006.04.08 17:50:00 - [25] The only problim is that logicaly extra ships would be out protecting the titan at all times. Just because its a game and you are likley to have more players than ships doesnt mean that you should go against logic. Titan makes sense as a mobile refitting platform. I think it should get some more weapons.
HammaSlamma	Posted - 2006.04.08 17:55:00 - [26] Originally by: Nyphur Titans can pull other shups in space through the jump fold with it. You open a bridge that ships can all cross, not just the titan. Thats all fine and dandy. But what happens when the titan does this with 50 BS. And then in a fight 10 are lost. 5 are replaced and your down to 45 BS. What happens if 5 more are lost and podded. They awake in the titan with no battleships to fly. Rather stupid IMO. Originally by: Asurix I was in ASCN they have the BPO's for both a Titan and a Mothership, I think I know the building requirements EVERYONE knows the build requirements for a mothership and Titan. Its on the god damn web site. And being in ASCN doesnt mean you know. You never saw the build requirements because you never saw the BPO. I did the calculations for building just a mothership on JUST mineral costs. No BPOs for components. No fittings, no fighters, no BPO for the ship. 13 Billion isk just for the minerals. Im sure with everything else included its pushed well over 20 billion.
Audri Fisher	Posted - 2006.04.08 18:31:00 - [27] First, I would dispute the fact that a Battleship is an escort ship even in the context of a Titan. Second, I may be missing some game mechanic, but do you really want peopl using your very limited hanger space with Battleships? Seems to me that one person could old an entire alliance hostage by unpackaging 5 battleships in a titans hanger, and leaving..... On a different vein, you can put packaged ships in a titans hold just like a regualr hanger right? It would take a good bit of organization and leadership to manage your limited space, but it doesn't take THAT long to fit a ship, esp if the loadouts are prepackaged.. ( New proffession, flight deck handler :P ) You aren't special, I hate everyone.
HammaSlamma	Posted - 2006.04.08 19:02:00 - [28] Audri, you obvously have never been part of a well organized 50 + vs 50 + fleet fight. othwise you would realise that carriers and Mships need battleships to protect them / fight for them. And what are you talking about unloading 5 BS to hold an alliance hostage? And no. As Ive said atleast 3 times now. You CANNOT put a packaged ship into a carrier/mship/titan.
Valea Silpha	Posted - 2006.04.08 19:04:00 - [29] A titan can protect itself fine. You want cruisers nad AFs in the bay for replacements, not BS. Fast cheap ships. If theres an enemy fleet in the same system as your titan, you just nuke it with a doomesday device. Whats more likely is your titan is a few hops out, and you want to get your re-enforcements moving back as fast as possible to pick off retreating enemy.
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.04.08 19:05:00 - [30] That Carriers are barely bigger than battleships needs to be fixed, really. They need to be doubled in size (meaning total volume increased by factor of 2 side, front AND height). The size they have currently implies that they can actually use stargates. Some stations' exit "mouths" are perhaps a bit small, while others (like the Minmatar outpost) has room for even larger ships. It would be better if Carrier - 2,500,000 metrics (2 battleship of any race) Mothership - 12,500,000 metrics (5-6 battleships of any reace) Titan 25,000,000 (11-12 battleships of any race) Note how the size difference is 1 BShip = 10 Cruisers = 100 Frigates. Oh, and Carriers can't carry packaged ships. The storage capacity of carriers versus freighters thus remains more or less unchanged, with Freighters having an advantage in bulk hauls, capable of moving up to 12 battleships in one haul (not to mention 0.5+ capability) Sidraket: No, you always have many more ships than players. Each player, in the circles we are talking about right now, has more than one battleship fully fitted and ready. The Titans already have enough weapons, it's hit points they miss. Badly. Nyphur: Titans enable others to jump drive with it - although the time to capacitor recharge compared to jump drive distance, only freighters will ever gain travel time through this use, so it's meant as a tactical deployment/retreat option. P.S. a slight boost for you Minmatar - your ships are smaller while Gallente and Amarr ships are bigger than Caldari. P.P.S. You can't fit "Life Clones" in a Titan/Mothership, only Jump Clones, so there's not going to be anyone "waking up in a Titan finding themselves without a ship" Arkanor > Gallente missileboat might be cool. KilROCK > Pod yourself till you got no skills left

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