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Alliance fragmentation: What is your take on it?

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Avernus	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:03:00 - [1] First up: NO, FIX is not disbanding. Had to get that out of the way. Basically, this is just a discussion. We're seeing a lot of alliances disbanding atm, but what the majority of people will have noticed, is they aren't exactly fleeing to empire looking all put out and resigned to a life of carebearism in Jita. New alliances, smaller alliances, are cropping up amazingly fast, and claiming smaller chunks of territory than before. Who needs a region when concentrating yourself in a constellation will do. I get the feeling that the devs are all looking at the map, turning to each other and doing high-fives. A lot of guys out in 0.0 have been out here a long time now, being a part of many of the alliances that we are now seeing disband. Anyone whos been out here a long time, realises that the larger an alliance, the more voices there are, the harder it is to get things agreed upon and done. Looking at Empire space like the sea, we've never seen so many 'landlocked' alliances before. All I want is this, when Kali comes out, and Alliances will begin to gain the ability to gain sovereignty over constellations, I want to see the amentities of Empire available there as well (like the ability to buy skills). But that's getting a little off topic. I love the fragmentation. What is your take? Ex-JCoS, Ex-Diplomat, Ex-Councilor, Ex-CEO (posts no longer represent Firmus Ixion)
Velsharoon	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:05:00 - [2] Its simply consolidating, and a goodthing to. it also allows them to change their political stance...probably to more agressive unless they are in the south :)
Hakera	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:05:00 - [3] change is always good, would get dull otherwise, you just end up with ever increasing powerblocks then if no alliance died and continued to grow, but an alliances weak point is also its strong point, their numbers.
Leno	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:05:00 - [4] Originally by: Avernus First up: NO, FIX is not disbanding. Well someone isn't very trendy? --------------- RIP - Smoske, My Friend
munchy	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:07:00 - [5] its just the time of year when everyone changes their names and standings list. lots of "well... they backstabbed us like 2 weeks ago, but now their alliance name is different so it doesnt matter". it has to happen every now and then, or like people said when G disbanded, there wouldnt be anybody to shoot. ---
Avernus	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:10:00 - [6] Originally by: Leno Originally by: Avernus First up: NO, FIX is not disbanding. Well someone isn't very trendy? Platform shoes for men were also a trend once, not all trends should be jumped into with abandon. Ex-JCoS, Ex-Diplomat, Ex-Councilor, Ex-CEO (posts no longer represent Firmus Ixion)
Baun	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Avernus First up: NO, FIX is not disbanding. Had to get that out of the way. Basically, this is just a discussion. We're seeing a lot of alliances disbanding atm, but what the majority of people will have noticed, is they aren't exactly fleeing to empire looking all put out and resigned to a life of carebearism in Jita. New alliances, smaller alliances, are cropping up amazingly fast, and claiming smaller chunks of territory than before. Who needs a region when concentrating yourself in a constellation will do. I get the feeling that the devs are all looking at the map, turning to each other and doing high-fives. A lot of guys out in 0.0 have been out here a long time now, being a part of many of the alliances that we are now seeing disband. Anyone whos been out here a long time, realises that the larger an alliance, the more voices there are, the harder it is to get things agreed upon and done. Looking at Empire space like the sea, we've never seen so many 'landlocked' alliances before. All I want is this, when Kali comes out, and Alliances will begin to gain the ability to gain sovereignty over constellations, I want to see the amentities of Empire available there as well (like the ability to buy skills). But that's getting a little off topic. I love the fragmentation. What is your take? I don't see fragmentation occuring now I just see some shifting in the groups. Fragmentation was more prevalent during the end of the FA/SA/CA epoch. Now all that is happening is a volatile political climate. Indeed, D2 is bigger than G was, NFC is bigger than IRON was (depending how you consider it as an alliance or coalition), and BoB has also gotten bigger. F-E is getting smaller yes, and Axiom also split from ASCN but i dont think fragmentation is the trend as much as simple change. The Enemy's Gate is Down
GoGo Yubari	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:22:00 - [8] I think it is a VERY logical trend. Quite clearly, the current alliances have been born to a new world. It's limitations and possibilities have been unknown and these guys have been exploring them. However, if you really look at the resources they have at their disposal, it's pretty much impossible to have 23/7 coverage of their space. Sure, it hasn't been entirely necessary yet and, also, it might not be entirely necessary in the immediate future. BUT The game is growing, with more players coming in, especially into unsecure 0.0 space. New toys are around with vast implications. Previously, the cost of failure has been very low indeed. Now, your expensive toys can be broken or taken from you. The world of Eve is changing, evolving if you will, and the conflict will come to a new level and the guys hugging the NPC stations will be ones clinging to the past. I'd say the focus on smaller, more well defended turfs is entirely natural.
xenorx	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:25:00 - [9] It is an interesting trend. I think it will be a growing trend too. I think that the alliances with members in the thousands will become more and more a thing of the past. Memberships with those kinds of numbers become more of a political head ache than they are worth. I also think that a lot of ppl are just getting sick of POS wars. It really makes some areas of space better than others if you want a large alliance. Those with NPC stations are at a distinct advantage over those without. Those without have to play POS ping pong while those with the npc stations dont have to. It creates a lot of bordom and frustration that ppl dont want to pay for just to "play" a game. Its just better to splinter off and focus on a small little area. I think all those ppl who have been busting their buts erecting outposts will look back on it after a while when those outposts have been taken over a few times and regret all the effort they put into it. They are just doing the work that CCP should have done a long time ago. The little splinter alliances will prosper because the worst thing that can happen is someone comes along with a few dreads and kill a few POS's. Not the massive finacial losses of time and isk that go into erecting outposts or holding stations. No one can hear you scream in space, so STFU and die already.
Afonso Henriques	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:55:00 - [10] Edited by: Afonso Henriques on 13/04/2006 00:55:38 It's a bunch of people making smaller alliances that are allied to the same people. The north is espicially guilty of this. Imo it is due to the carebearism mentality. Now, not all or most in the north are what would be alled carebears or indy only. But, they make a lot of their decisions as if they were. They all want to nap their neighbors so they can mine and npc in peace. All that happens is your military weakens and you eventually fold. All you need to do is open the map and read the forums to understand this. Maybe the D2 and NFC thing will change this, but I doubt it. From my perspecitive, it appears like the are shuffling chairs on the Exxon Valdez deck. All the same people, all the same goals just under different names.
Adam C	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:56:00 - [11] Edited by: Adam C on 13/04/2006 01:04:30 im certain politics in eve is centered around holidays and forums not too mention the average eve player eve player examples;- - subs to eve, for 7months - spends two months in corp then change (unless extremely loyal to group) - pvp in one area for about 1week - 2week then wants a new region cause his primary ^^ edit - 100.000+ eve subs i wonder if there are many psychologists playing eve? (i bet baun is one. That or Lawyer)
Afonso Henriques	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:58:00 - [12] A lot of eve players never leave empire because they lack balls or know how. Most of the people in 0.0 are older people who love eve, not someone looking for a quick thrill.
Zekk Pacus	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:59:00 - [13] You get bored of talking to and flying with the same people, shooting the same enemies, and the same rats in the same systems, mining the same damn roid OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL YOU WISH THE ROID WOULD MINE BACK JUST TO MAKE IT INTERESTING. Ahem. It's just a slight shift in politics, happens all the time in EVE as in real life. I think it's a damn good thing - I lived in the North when it was stable and it was too hard to get a fight. Now with all this I'm almost itching to run back to the north...
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.13 02:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Adam C i wonder if there are many psychologists playing eve? (i bet baun is one. That or Lawyer) I know two writing papers on it, if that helps. The last week's events have been interesting. The "Game of Empires" Eve has is dynamic and interesting in a way which has and will endure. RIP Shadowbane, the only real competitor, too. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Promon Delnai	Posted - 2006.04.13 02:11:00 - [15] Im glad of the political changes, I was getting bored
Mi Lai	Posted - 2006.04.13 04:19:00 - [16] Well, judging from the forum alone, it seems there has been one Alliance who's 'business model' has outdated most if not all the others out there, so a lot of smart leaders have decided to reorganise from scratch. I think the 0.0 guys out there will either adapt to this new model, or loose their significance.
Aliksr	Posted - 2006.04.13 04:33:00 - [17] I have a theory that most alliances actually just live in one constellation - or at least could retreat to one if the s*** hit the fan. And then all the broken Alliances retreat to NPC regions and anything can live in an NPC region. So both of these things keeps the map messy because a big strong alliance can hold a lot of space but then when it gets attacked it can afford to give up a lot of space also. The sheer number of people who live in 0.0 now compared to a year ago is a big change also. So many corporations you have to remember and set standings to.
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2006.04.13 07:35:00 - [18] Edited by: Harry Voyager on 13/04/2006 07:35:48 It reminds me a little bit of the nomadic period after the fall of the Roman Empire. It wasn't so much that people wanted to defend smaller territories, as it was the systems for managing large nations has collapsed, and nothing new had really come together. Here is looks as though the larger land holding entities have broken down into small nomadic tribes. Harry Voyager
Moghydin	Posted - 2006.04.13 08:00:00 - [19] I think that alliances are fragmentating not because of some game mechanicks change as it wasn't yet implemented. Most large alliances felt they urgently needed a reform after BoB have shown their power. Many alliances realized that having 1500k memebrs is not enough if 80% of those won't undock to fight, having 50 corporations in the alliance doesn't help too. It looks like some alliances will try to implement BoB structure - a small number of big corporations and the number of "carebears" cut to minimum. Let's see if they'll succeed.
DB Preacher	Posted - 2006.04.13 08:06:00 - [20] It's a gift from the amarrian gods ;) dbp Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
Vishnej	Posted - 2006.04.13 08:09:00 - [21] A lot of it is secondary ripples in the pond. Yes, everyone saw that BoB's structure was a good one, but they'd seen that for a year. G/Iron's disbandment and Atuk joining BoB are the driving factors behind changes at this point. Contribute to the Eve Wiki
Dao 2	Posted - 2006.04.13 09:10:00 - [22] the last few comments are made by blind ppl :\| cept maybe dbp but thats cause it barely says anything ;p ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Kantar	Posted - 2006.04.13 09:20:00 - [23] More then a disbands we are looking at reshuffles, some new corp a new name but all still the same tbh.
Boonaki	Posted - 2006.04.13 09:22:00 - [24] I really wish we could say we were responsible for it. But we know it's not true. I do think we had some part of it. I'm hoping D2's primary goal is to take Delve/Fountain. That would make things very interesting. Fear the Ibis of doom.
turnschuh	Posted - 2006.04.13 09:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Adam C Edited by: Adam C on 13/04/2006 01:04:30 im certain politics in eve is centered around holidays and forums not too mention the average eve player eve player examples;- - subs to eve, for 7months - spends two months in corp then change (unless extremely loyal to group) - pvp in one area for about 1week - 2week then wants a new region cause his primary ^^ lol thats definetly not the avg. eve player. the avg eve players is not a corp hopper or pirate. the avg player is a carebear and stays within a corp with maybe rl friends.
DB Preacher	Posted - 2006.04.13 09:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Boonaki I really wish we could say we were responsible for it. But we know it's not true. I do think we had some part of it. How could you possibly know what we think? Last time I checked you weren't in a position to be thinking. dbp Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
Dao 2	Posted - 2006.04.13 09:44:00 - [27] Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: Boonaki I really wish we could say we were responsible for it. But we know it's not true. I do think we had some part of it. How could you possibly know what we think? Last time I checked you weren't in a position to be thinking. dbp dont matter though hes spot on ;p u guys brought things to light, helped show up some problems, but most of the stuff isn't cause of actual attacks or anything like that. It's more like they found a better way after all this and decided to act accordingly ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
DB Preacher	Posted - 2006.04.13 09:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Dao 2 Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: Boonaki I really wish we could say we were responsible for it. But we know it's not true. I do think we had some part of it. How could you possibly know what we think? Last time I checked you weren't in a position to be thinking. dbp dont matter though hes spot on ;p u guys brought things to light, helped show up some problems, but most of the stuff isn't cause of actual attacks or anything like that. It's more like they found a better way after all this and decided to act accordingly So what you are saying is: "It had nothing to do with the attacks but people changed after the attacks." That's what you just said and that doesn't make sense. dbp Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
Kunming	Posted - 2006.04.13 09:49:00 - [29] 70% of EVE is 0.0, 70% of the EVE population hangs around in empire... every year around a 10% of the 70 make a move to 0.0 and create fluctuations in the power balance of 0.0 alliances Not the only reason why we see change in 0.0, though I'm sure its one of them. Website Kaos Empire Killboard
Ritt Serras	Posted - 2006.04.13 14:11:00 - [30] Part of it tends to be that the bigger alliances tend to facilitate the carebearing in Empire, so to speak. F-E had would have 180-220 people in the military channel at any one time, but when a call to arms went out, you'd get 10-20 people in the gang. That's not the way to defend space. When you look at that and see how much space the alliance claimed, it was really, really sad to see the poor turnout. In smaller alliances, the carebear corps will at least have to field an active military wing, or go back to Empire space (Where, in my opinion, carebears belong. If you're not going to fight for the resources in 0.0 then go the hell home.) Tribute resident Weapons of choice: Missiles and Insults.
Hans Roaming	Posted - 2006.04.13 14:16:00 - [31] Power blocks have shifted and old alliegences are broken and new ones formed, 0.0 had become stagnated and with the creation of a superpower like BoB others had to come together to survive, both in terms of facing conflict and also keeping conflict going. Being able to build up 0.0 so it has the facilites of empire would be a good thing. Outposts are the start however being able to upgrade them and with the ability to claim sov over a constellation and possibly having some benfits for doing so the game will get better. President Huzzah Federation Be all you can be, join the Huzzah Armed Forces today!
Sun Ra	Posted - 2006.04.13 14:18:00 - [32] Well small lots of small alliances are better than a few big oens that control a large ammount of space but not use 90% of it and wont allow others in to use it Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas'
Scagga Laebetrovo	Posted - 2006.04.13 14:35:00 - [33] Fragmentations can occur for the reasons given, i.e. ppl wanting to shift, defeat and power vacuums etc. However personal reasons, ppl wanting their own power can contribute to this as well. I also agree with the idea that the influx of players from empire space into 0.0 will be making an impact, and I think it is better that we have some division of power from the oligarchs! A prison with no walls and no chains. We cannot break free for we cannot see what binds
Traiben Mightius	Posted - 2006.04.13 14:50:00 - [34] Originally by: Sun Ra Well small lots of small alliances are better than a few big oens that control a large ammount of space but not use 90% of it and wont allow others in to use it QFT IMO, this has been a long time coming. A couple of systems, well-defended by the core of an alliances' member-base, would be very profitable and extremely active. You take a big risk in "having all your eggs in one basket", but it allows you to focus your resources rather than spending your time insta-ing around to the choke points 20-jumps away. Could make for more interesting fights as well... two aliiances sort of grow into each other as they claim one system at a time. Their resources would be very close together for fast and constant action. Sounds like a hoot! Click here to check out my siggy designs!
Cause CEO	Posted - 2006.04.13 15:02:00 - [35] Don't you get it? There's just some spring cleaning going on in EVE
Zzazzt	Posted - 2006.04.13 15:45:00 - [36] It's not a trend. The political lanscape of Eve (certainly in the north) has been irrevocably changed by first the disbanding of ATUK & BoB's subsequent standings reset. The status quo that held everyone in place has been upended, and so a new era () begins in the north. ____________________________________________
Manus Ghostface	Posted - 2006.04.13 16:00:00 - [37] As a long time veteran of online games (back to Tw2002 in dialup days muahaha), I see it as a natural progression. Powers rise and fall, split, combine and endless other permutations. What is good in Eve, is that there are many mechanisms for change. In other online games, a player corp/guild gets a lead, then uses that to cull the best players from other player corp/guilds, but is not attackable or susceptible to dismantling. In Eve, if a corp makes enough enemies, they can be slowly picked apart or reduced in power, a new power can arise, or many, many other changes of fate. I just came back from a long time away, and when I left people were saying Mo0 was invincible, that the 0.0 alliances would lock down nonempire space, and that we were headed for a boring statis. Look at all the changes from the past 2 years, it's glorious in its own right imo, and 2 more years from now it will probably also be completely different. CCP has handled this game right, and it has legs to keep running for a good long time. That city is well fortified which has a wall of men instead of brick. - Lycurgus
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.04.13 16:25:00 - [38] Originally by: DB Preacher Last time I checked you weren't in a position to be thinking. lol wtf?!? ______________________________________________________ Account Cancelled
Drunk Driver	Posted - 2006.04.13 16:27:00 - [39] What's my take on it? Two I guess.
Zzazzt	Posted - 2006.04.13 16:31:00 - [40] Originally by: Manus Ghostface when I left people were saying Mo0 was invincible, that the 0.0 alliances would lock down nonempire space, and that we were headed for a boring statis. Look at all the changes from the past 2 years, it's glorious in its own right imo, and 2 more years from now it will probably also be completely different. CCP has handled this game right, and it has legs to keep running for a good long time. QFT /signed etc. ____________________________________________
Edheler	Posted - 2006.04.13 16:49:00 - [41] Originally by: Ritt Serras (Where, in my opinion, carebears belong. If you're not going to fight for the resources in 0.0 then go the hell home.) Personally, I view your opinion as one of the problem attitudes of 0.0. All players who contribute to their corporations betterment can make a difference in 0.0. Yes, I try to convince the non-PvPers to come on out in a frigate and to get a jump clone so they are not risking their implants. Sometimes I convert them to the dark side, sometimes not. If they contribute to bettering the corporations 0.0 position then they are a valuable and valued member. PvP isn't something everyone enjoys. If they just npc and mine for their personal benefit and never help the corporation achieve our larger goals, thats a different story entirely. Those people, don't last for long in Quintessential at least. Edheler Quintessential CEO
Manus Ghostface	Posted - 2006.04.13 17:14:00 - [42] Originally by: Edheler Originally by: Ritt Serras (Where, in my opinion, carebears belong. If you're not going to fight for the resources in 0.0 then go the hell home.) Personally, I view your opinion as one of the problem attitudes of 0.0. All players who contribute to their corporations betterment can make a difference in 0.0. Yes, I try to convince the non-PvPers to come on out in a frigate and to get a jump clone so they are not risking their implants. Sometimes I convert them to the dark side, sometimes not. If they contribute to bettering the corporations 0.0 position then they are a valuable and valued member. PvP isn't something everyone enjoys. If they just npc and mine for their personal benefit and never help the corporation achieve our larger goals, thats a different story entirely. Those people, don't last for long in Quintessential at least. Edheler Quintessential CEO Even the Mongol Horde had people dedicated to making arrows and spears. Best to keep the isk inhouse with domestic production than flowing out to who knows where and making someone else stronger. That city is well fortified which has a wall of men instead of brick. - Lycurgus
Francis Verdictio	Posted - 2006.04.13 17:55:00 - [43] I agree with the two previous posters: Even those serve who build and mine. An alliance in 0.0 cannot survive without a strong industrial base, which means miners and builders. Those miners and builders may be (and often are) capable PVP-ers, but that is not their only motivation. What is behind the current alliance mixing and matching, well, some of it was because people in older alliances made some radical decisions, and some of it (creation of NFC and D2) was the reaction of other locals to those decisions. When the balance of power shifts, new entities must take place of the old ones.
TylerJames	Posted - 2006.04.13 18:59:00 - [44] Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: Boonaki I really wish we could say we were responsible for it. But we know it's not true. I do think we had some part of it. How could you possibly know what we think? Last time I checked you weren't in a position to be thinking. dbp I read this and thought..."DB is either his daddy or Boonaki is his *****".....and I am in a posistion to be thinking. Nothing personal....just struck me as a little controlling.
Raid	Posted - 2006.04.13 19:12:00 - [45] New alliance names.. mostly the same members with some additions and subtractions. Isnt the first time this has happened. Only difference is everyone is posting about it whereas a year or two ago that wasnt the case. Originally by: Bared Bel'Medar Its a rare dialect called "dou'chay'ba'gh"... frequently used by members of this forum community. I was under the assumption you spoke it
Cummilla	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:09:00 - [46] Originally by: xenorx I also think that a lot of ppl are just getting sick of POS wars. And we have a winnar ladies and gents!
Cummilla	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:13:00 - [47] Edited by: Cummilla on 13/04/2006 21:13:54 Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: DB Preacher Last time I checked you weren't in a position to be thinking. lol wtf?!? Just BoB arrogance. Pay it no mind.
Mistress Suffering	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:18:00 - [48] People are a pain in the butt to get to play nice together. The larger the group, the more work it takes to make it function effectively. You'll see guilds rise and fall in every game on a very regular basis. Those that last for years and years, do so because of dedicated and effective leadership. There is always a wealth of people ready to jump in and fill the void, but there are extremely few who do it well. In other words, same old same old.

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