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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
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kieron
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:30:00 -
[1]
Windows Vista has been in the news alot, as has the upcoming DX10 graphics standards. Redundancy's round table at FanFest05, a number of interviews and a picture leaked at the Las Vegas player gathering have all given inklings of where EVE is heading graphically. The latest issue of E-ON also previewed more of the graphic changes.
Our intention was to make a big announcement at E3 , something that we still intend on doing. However, all the sneak peaks, previews and leaked information have generated a lot of questions from the community. To leave the EVE community in the dark until E3 would be a great dis-service to the players that have supported us for so long.
In what is one of the 5 longest Blogs written by a Dev, Redundancy answers questions, clears the air and shares some insight into the development of the EVE Classic and EVE Vista clients, where DX9 and DX10 fit into all of this, and even lets you know who TomB's main is. Well, maybe not tell you who TomB's alt is, but he does share some history of EVE's graphic development, current plans and where she goes from here.
You can read more about a little thing called Vista.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online |
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kieron
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:31:00 -
[2]
First! (I always wanted to do that!) 
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online |
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Jaleean Atheria
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:32:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jaleean Atheria on 14/04/2006 22:37:23
Firstest
Firster  - Imaran
as a DEV cannot claim first on his own post FIRST!
Orignal Mr. Floppyknickers signature |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:37:00 -
[4]
3rd?
Win a Cerberus!!
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Stop spamming with "QFT" >:|. - Teblin
Who pwned who?  ~kieron |
The TX
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:37:00 -
[5]
Least first!
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LONDON PLAYER MEET Media Thread
Mining |
Canine Fiend
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:38:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Canine Fiend on 14/04/2006 22:38:19
Fifth, But I actually read the whole thing
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"Stay up north boy, we don't play with training wheels down south." |
The TX
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:38:00 -
[7]
Edited by: The TX on 14/04/2006 22:38:25
 Originally by: HippoKing
3rd?
no! I was IBHK!! wow!
edit: oh no, i said IBHK in perfect context. now it's set in stone. btw - whats this new sticky about? :-P
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LONDON PLAYER MEET Media Thread
Mining |
Sevarus James
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:43:00 -
[8]
Nice blog, good info.......and this one bit:
"DX10 is looking to be a nice specification that adds a lot of useful features, and yes, for the best visual experience in Eve, you'll probably need to eventually use Vista.".
I had tears, TEARS of laughter in my eyes. Never again will MS touch my computers at home. NEED to? lmao.
I'm very glad that the commitment to the dx9 NON vista engine is being stressed. Those of us who don't use, want or NEED microsoft's DRM-FEST invading our homes, will still be able to play the best MMO ever made at least for the forseeable future.
opengl 2.0 ftw imho.
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New sig coming soon
"Ubuntu 5.10 cedega 5.1.1 and EVE= happy camper"
Not READY for primetime OS |
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BH Runner
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:44:00 -
[9]
Very informative Redundancy, looks to address the multiple questions people have been posting and repost across several forum sections.
[Bug Report Here] - [Contact Us] |
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The Enslaver
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:45:00 -
[10]
Excellent.
I'd just like to say that I now love CCP even more. Most companies would just make a new game; you guys are making sure that EVE evolves and evolves. Excellent.
Glad to see you guys realise you have the best product on the market. All you need now is some large scale advertising 
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Shinra Director
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:46:00 -
[11]
Okay, let me lay out my concerns:
I'm worried it's going to lead to an "effectively forced to upgrade" situation. The moment you start adding features which reduce lag, or improve the GUI or 101 other things to the Vista version, corps will start demanding people run the "good client" to join them. Effectively forcing people to upgrade. Not something you can really regulate, either.
And you're talking about supporting 2 seperate clients. While there are a number of examples in MUD's (2D/2.5D clients) the only GMUD equivalent was UO's 2 clients, which was a disaster in most senses of the word.
It dosn't matter how amazing the engine you're building is, to many people. That you're shacking it to an OS which the kindest description for is Bloatwear and rapidly goes downhill from there, especially when you consider the massive negative functionality its DRM will bring.
That you don't have any plans to segregate gameplay...dosn't mean it won't happen either. After all, instas and jet can mining were not planed either. And people, regardless of what you tell them...WILL see it as two classes of citizenship, especially potential new players.
I just cannot see this as a good thing.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Ominus Decre
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:49:00 -
[12]
Originally by: kieron
First! (I always wanted to do that!)
hAXORZ!!
Ok...time to check the wonderful new blog and find out who's getting podded this weekend. 
Boobies:  |
Moominer
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Posted - 2006.04.14 22:54:00 -
[13]
Excellent Dev Blog, thanks Redundancy.
To all those going "wah wah wah Vista/DX10", read these lines, multiple times:
Quote:
If youÆd like to know what new features are going to be ported back, itÆs difficult to say....Strong candidates that have been mentioned are the new normal mapped ships, HDR and self shadowing....the original Trinity engine will look a lot better for those with the hardware to take advantage of these features
...In other words, you get quite substantial upgrades to the current engine that runs on XP/DX9.
It'd be interesting to hear what DX10 features you are planning to get into the DX10 engine later on? The above are pretty much all of the things mentioned at fanfest and it appears you want those in the current engine?
Eve Fitting Manager
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:00:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 14/04/2006 23:02:02
Moominer, and yet the Vista engine is still going to be "the good client" in peoples eyes.
Even if the actual difference is slight, the very offer of two clients which are different...psycology, NOT technology.
Hakera, VISTA hate. Not Microsoft. I believe in what works. Vista simply dosn't work from my POV. Issues like being unable to run other programs besides games and the DRM...ugh.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Hakera
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:00:00 -
[15]
tbh I think Red spelled it out quite clearly, trinity classic will get a shed load of upgrades and will be the primary engine for eve, but they will also develop a dx10 engine simply because they want to push the limit and see what eve can do.
They arnt forcing anyone to upgrade and I cant see how you can draw a similar analogy to jetcan mining for two different graphics engines, one of which will be experimental.
Sorry Maya - tis a storm in a teacup i think your brewing with a twist of microsoft hate in there.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:04:00 -
[16]
Edited by: j0sephine on 14/04/2006 23:05:39
"...In other words, you get quite substantial upgrades to the current engine that runs on XP/DX9."
Well, if you are quoting then don't skip the relevant bits that are stressed to point of getting the bold font, unlike the rest of quote -.^
"These features are what we WANT, but are subject to change!"
... in other words, what we actually get remains yet to be seen.
edit: but all that aside, thank you Redunancy for taking time to scribble the blog thingie \o/
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Del ReyII
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Hakera
tbh I think Red spelled it out quite clearly, trinity classic will get a shed load of upgrades and will be the primary engine for eve, but they will also develop a dx10 engine simply because they want to push the limit and see what eve can do.
They arnt forcing anyone to upgrade and I cant see how you can draw a similar analogy to jetcan mining for two different graphics engines, one of which will be experimental.
Sorry Maya - tis a storm in a teacup i think your brewing with a twist of microsoft hate in there.
/second
Looking forward to seeing the changes.
Thanks for the blog, makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
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Sir Juri
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:15:00 -
[18]
great blog makes perfect sense, and im happy you make it for the future and not just for 1 year ahead. I bet it will work out great. Going to be like an EVE Online 2 for free with your current community.
And to ppl like maya, read the blog again and read about what Vista/directX10 will do, you got it all wrong, get a clue. And if a corp demands you to have Vista then I suggest leaving your corp. Its like when ppl cry about next gen consoles and when CS source came out. Get over it. Atleast they aint making an EVE 2. And they aint charging you for it.
Goodluck to CPP with this, the chinese cluster and E3 thats ahead I bet with all this EVE Online will be a good investment for years and years to come.
Im a noob, bear with me :P |
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kieron
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:15:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Okay, let me lay out my concerns:
*snip*
I just cannot see this as a good thing.
Why not just wait and see how things go instead of all but announcing the new graphic core is doomed to failure based on the events that transpired with a different game run by a different company?
Introducing new code, hardware support and other upgrades are the part and parcel of the evolution of the MMOG industry. If we chose to ignore the new technology and standards, we doom EVE by our own inaction.
Believe it or not, CCP is capable of learning from the mistakes of others, and it is not our intention to follow in the footsteps of OSI/EA/UO. Yes, there will be 2 seperate clients, but much of the core information will be identical between EVE Classic and EVE Vista. Using the different graphics engines will be easier to support than try to integrate them both into one client. To attempt to integrate the two graphic engines into one client would mean rewriting the entire client and introduce a whole host of issues that we do not want to deal with.
Segregation is not our intention. We fully intend to support EVE Classic as the primary client until such a time as it is no longer capable of supporting EVE. Also, keep in mind that EVE Vista is still very much in its early developmental stages and to worry that 'X Corporation is going to kick me out because I don't have EVE Vista/Windows Vista/DX10' on my machine is academic at this point.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online |
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Skian Mhor
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:18:00 -
[20]
the Blog is certainly greatly appreciated, good to read the statements directly.
I do wonder if the UI and all other interface elements are likely to be maintained as identical accross the classic and vista platforms, it would certainly undermine any daft ideas of the older engine being "second class" to have such.
and, as a note, is anyone actually bothering to pay attention to Maya's ramblings still?
The first thread, you read... after a dozen you begin to realise it's the rantings of a crazed evangelical anti-vista funadamentalist at work.
(Peice of advice, dear. one or two well thought out statements with supporting evidence do your cause a whole lot more good than 300 incoherent rants with sensationalist claims on a OS that's not even available to weigh up the claims.)
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Hakera
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Hakera, VISTA hate. Not Microsoft. I believe in what works. Vista simply dosn't work from my POV. Issues like being unable to run other programs at the same time as games and the DRM...ugh.
My bad, my concerns have been satisified anyway in that my run of the mill computer with its trusty 6600 card will continue to play eve for years to come (though i reckon I will eventually upgrade to a duel sli gpu setup next year sometime) Perhaps ignorance is my sin in that i really dont care as long as eve works just as well as it does now, if not better in the future.
Im much more interested in Red's comments on adding more detail to the environment myself - I want X3 style planets if possible!
Oh red - hope you get a fanfest slot to show us all the pretty eyecandy! For first time I may actually be able to afford to go this year O.o
(I was one of those suckers who used to explore for eve 'eye candy' back when the game went gold and screenie & report it on explore-eve ran by StevieW)
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Sir Juri
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: kieron
Believe it or not, CCP is capable of learning from the mistakes of others, and it is not our intention to follow in the footsteps of OSI/EA/UO.
I hope you will ad SOE to with SWG, thats how I found out about EVE Online (ty SOE)
Im a noob, bear with me :P |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:29:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 14/04/2006 23:30:16
Kiron, oh, that's an easy one to answer. Cyncism!
I really DO have Bitter and Twisted trained to level 7.
(If it means anything to you, I was a Lummie from...pretty near the start, and I remain involved with Corpnews.com)
On the plus side, nobody has ever managed to succesfully scam me in Eve yet.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
PaulAtreides
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:30:00 -
[24]
Edited by: PaulAtreides on 14/04/2006 23:34:48
As an avid follower of graphics technology, I really enjoyed this dev-blog. DX10 sounds very promising for a future client of Eve.
However, I would like to remind Redundancy about the very shiny if not highly lucrative alternative:
openGL and openGL 2.0.
openGL 2.0, it far ahead of its competition in DirectX and already there are some cards that support it fully. The new shading language should make it possible for some stunning effects as well.
Lucrativly speaking, Eve is currently only running on one (1) operating system natively. There is a large percentage of people (very nerdy types) that are fanatical about their operating systems. MacOS X, and Linux. Both of which are native with openGL.
I would say that a large part of Blizzards success in marketing WoW, was due to the help they got from Apple computers when they released the game for both platforms. Apple love having the game industry develop for their platform and they provide marketing incentives.
With Apple finally moving to intel, the migration of PC users to the MacOS operating system is only going to get bigger. BootCamp will allow people on mac to use Windows too... what I see with this is that PC users will buy more macs as the idea of being able to run the Mac operating system as well will appeal to a lot of them. Once they get used to the much more advanced and secure UNIX based operating system in Mac, they will be migrating over more and more.
In summery, Windows is here to stay for a while, and DirectX is the built in graphics engine, but isolating a large group of people by sticking with DirectX... personally I would look into openGL 2.0 seriously.
<3 Eve.
Edit: You will also be able to tap the Playstation3 market with openGL
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Sevarus James
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:30:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Sevarus James on 14/04/2006 23:31:15
Originally by: kieron
Why not just wait and see how things go instead of all but announcing the new graphic core is doomed to failure based on the events that transpired with a different game run by a different company?
Why do that? Then all we can do is grouse about what is.......and not what might be!
Originally by: kieron
Introducing new code, hardware support and other upgrades are the part and parcel of the evolution of the MMOG industry. If we chose to ignore the new technology and standards, we doom EVE by our own inaction.
Standards. You mean MICROSOFT'S standards. Not all of the world considers what we in the industry coin "vaporware" a standard. (And yes, until this is an official released spec, its vaporware.)
An example: I just shelled out nearly 3g's for a dual core SLI'd screamer of a system. This is as CURRENT a box as it gets, yet, if I go by MS's STANDARDS, I'm obsolete already. 7900gtx? no dx10 capability there. 7900gtx again.........can't play those DRM HD movies...........whoops!
And that's just the graphics card.
My fancy schmancy 24 INCH WIDESCREEN ACER.........oops, no DRM chip on board..........guess its postage stamp size HD again.........or crippled variation.
Ahh VISTA......never. ever. At some point people need to stand up and take notice of what that company in Redmond is attempting to shovel. Its not a pretty smell. From a 'standards' point of view, a common sense point of view, or a privacy point of view.
Shelling out the money for the OS this time ain't just for the software...DRM in my home just so I can play a game? Not all of us out here are that naive.
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New sig coming soon
"Ubuntu 5.10 cedega 5.1.1 and EVE= happy camper"
Not READY for primetime OS |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:30:00 -
[26]
"Segregation is not our intention. We fully intend to support EVE Classic as the primary client until such a time as it is no longer capable of supporting EVE."
If there's no intention to put different features (aside from graphics gimmicks) into each version of the client, why would one of them ever become unable to support EVE..? The only way one of them would no longer be capable etc... is simply when a programmer finally fesses up they can no longer be bothered with doing 2x the work, by copying the same code between two different clients and chasing the same bugs twice, along with extra ones from all the copy-pasting...
(and because having to put the same stuff in two versions of the client is indeed silly, i'd think the more sensible way to go is to abstract the graphics interface and have the client only talk with this 'front end', without ever having to know how exactly all the drawing is being done. But then from the comments in the blog maybe it's something that can't be done with the game code being tied too tight to the graphics engine o.O;
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:32:00 -
[27]
well that cleared my worries a bit.
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Originally by: Abdalion
Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
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Grimnir
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:43:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Grimnir on 14/04/2006 23:45:08
In fact with MVP, it'd be trivial to have an OpenGL client, but I'd rather that CCP worked on what they know and gave the majority of us, new features 
Edit: I say that, because with OGL it'd be fairly trivial to port to Linux/OSX
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Hunters Presence
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:50:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Hunters Presence on 14/04/2006 23:53:24
"If we chose to ignore the new technology and standards, we doom EVE by our own inaction."
There's still a notable difference between new and currently non-existant. There's still a huge wealth of features in DirectX 9 to be explored yet, don't put those aside for a technology that isn't on the market and which many consumers have already said they don't expect to purchase.
Ammendum: I realise you understand this but I can't just CANNOT stress it enough. We want promises, not 'maybes'.
________________
Lead Games Programmer
Quasit-Rushyo Games |
Sevarus James
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Posted - 2006.04.14 23:50:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Sevarus James on 14/04/2006 23:52:21
Originally by: Morphisat
It's very nice to see CCP respond to concerns in the Eve community so fast :). Also I think it's smart to be looking to the future and start developing for things to come.
What i dont like is it's commitment to Microsoft :(. I'd love to see a Mac or Linux client, but with all this DirectX stuff, that will probably never happen.
Well there is always hope. Dell is starting to load some of their line with linux. HP is also making rumbling noises in that direction. With Ubuntu's hell-bent-fer-leather charge getting some serious traction around the world, and Novelle's OpenSuse 10.1 making serious believers with the new XGL implementation for a 3-d desktop who knows? What MS has been promising with Aero (3d) linux and MAC already have. OpenGL 2.0 is out with stuff that DX10 is "supposed" to have....er......when its released.........er........with new video cards.......er..........and hardware that has HARDWARE DRM capability........and .er...........new monitors with hardware DRM chips............lmao.
I don't EVER give up hope that eventually game developers will realize that John Carmack was right all along...I don't hold my breath, but I do hope.
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New sig coming soon
"Ubuntu 5.10 cedega 5.1.1 and EVE= happy camper"
Not READY for primetime OS |
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