| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 13 .. 13 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
ElfeGER
   |
Posted - 2006.04.21 18:04:00 -
[301]
hmm web clients could be fun
and as openGL is supported under Java it could hold some nice features
http://fergusmurray.members.beeb.net/interact.htm
https://jogl-demos.dev.java.net/
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 19:06:00 -
[302]
 Originally by: BurnHard
Edited by: BurnHard on 21/04/2006 08:03:37
Originally by: damicatz
A lot of Windows users practice the idiotic habit of running as an administrator account. And programmers don't help by writing programs that require an administrator account for no real purpose. The only programs that should require an administrator-level account are system-administration related utilities. Nothing else. When you learn Linux, one of the first things you are taught is not to run as root. Ever. Run as a regular user and su/sudo etc. over to root when you need to do something as root.
Well firstly with respect to the "Standard" you are technically right. OpenGL is a standard, whereas DX 10 is a specification.
You are right about administrator accounts - Vista will fix this issue I think.
Yes, then as soon as an official graphics driver breaks a game, you'll have to toggle to developer mode for 4-5 months (running as admin) in order to use the unsigned "beta" driver which fixes the issue. Right.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
damicatz
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 19:36:00 -
[303]
MS didn't make any technology choices to outsmart the competetion. Only to create more lock-in and force people to use Windows.
And I doubt that Vista will fix the administrator account issue. The only way to fix it is to prevent users from logging into the GUI as Administrator and make it so that there can only be one account with administrator priviledges. Like in the UNIX world. And when someone needs partial administrator privilages in a production environment you use sudo to give them per-application administrator level priviledges.
Originally by: BurnHard
Edited by: BurnHard on 21/04/2006 08:03:37
Originally by: damicatz
A lot of Windows users practice the idiotic habit of running as an administrator account. And programmers don't help by writing programs that require an administrator account for no real purpose. The only programs that should require an administrator-level account are system-administration related utilities. Nothing else. When you learn Linux, one of the first things you are taught is not to run as root. Ever. Run as a regular user and su/sudo etc. over to root when you need to do something as root.
Well firstly with respect to the "Standard" you are technically right. OpenGL is a standard, whereas DX 10 is a specification.
You are right about administrator accounts - Vista will fix this issue I think. I don't think you are right about Windows XP being sub-standard. It's got issues, mainly due to IE being so deeply embedded into it and the various technology choices MS made to try and outsmart the competition and make it easier to use, which of course have been completely undone by the virus writers.
My copy of XP never blue screens and doesn't crash. I haven't had to shut down my work PC for two months and last time I did it was to install a new USB card. And of course, knowing that XP is on the majority of desktops makes it much easier for me to develop software for the platform at work. Just some of the positives.
|
EvilSnik
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 19:37:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: BurnHard
Edited by: BurnHard on 21/04/2006 08:03:37
Originally by: damicatz
A lot of Windows users practice the idiotic habit of running as an administrator account. And programmers don't help by writing programs that require an administrator account for no real purpose. The only programs that should require an administrator-level account are system-administration related utilities. Nothing else. When you learn Linux, one of the first things you are taught is not to run as root. Ever. Run as a regular user and su/sudo etc. over to root when you need to do something as root.
Well firstly with respect to the "Standard" you are technically right. OpenGL is a standard, whereas DX 10 is a specification.
You are right about administrator accounts - Vista will fix this issue I think.
Yes, then as soon as an official graphics driver breaks a game, you'll have to toggle to developer mode for 4-5 months (running as admin) in order to use the unsigned "beta" driver which fixes the issue. Right.
Maya, sorry to be slightly off topic, but do you ever post anything remotely optimistic at all.
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 19:41:00 -
[305]
Certainly.
However, there is very little to be optimistic about when it comes to Vista.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Fierce Deity
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 21:11:00 -
[306]
any talk about supporting PhysX by AGEIA for the vista engine? although i beleive it's dx 9 compatable. i just say some live flight videos with it and it looked encredable. Linky watch the cell factor video with the content warning to see what i was talking about.
------FD------
Recruiting: Hera Star
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 21:25:00 -
[307]
There is very very little physics code in Eve. The PhysX is designed for SP games, not MMO's.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Fierce Deity
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 21:31:00 -
[308]
Edited by: Fierce Deity on 21/04/2006 21:32:56
Edited by: Fierce Deity on 21/04/2006 21:32:26
maybe, but if ccp is trying to step up their game it would free up a load of cpu power to use in other areas. and cpu is were eve is a hungry beast. missles at actually fly like missles ships that actually rock in shockwaves like they are supposed to and real looking explosions with bits bouncing off your ships. i think it would look great and cost proformance little to nothing, for those the the 300$ to buy the chip.
edit: now that i look the list up most of the games supporting physx are mmos like COV COH vangard ect..
------FD------
Recruiting: Hera Star
|
damicatz
|
Posted - 2006.04.21 22:10:00 -
[309]
It would free up CPU only on those computers with PhysX. So therefore, they would still have to allocate CPU usage so that it works on computers without the PhysX card negating any benefit. As far as I'm concerned, PhysX is vaporware much like Vista/DirectX 10. I have yet to see a single PhysX card, only people susposdly supporting it.
Originally by: Fierce Deity
Edited by: Fierce Deity on 21/04/2006 21:32:56
Edited by: Fierce Deity on 21/04/2006 21:32:26
maybe, but if ccp is trying to step up their game it would free up a load of cpu power to use in other areas. and cpu is were eve is a hungry beast. missles at actually fly like missles ships that actually rock in shockwaves like they are supposed to and real looking explosions with bits bouncing off your ships. i think it would look great and cost proformance little to nothing, for those the the 300$ to buy the chip.
edit: now that i look the list up most of the games supporting physx are mmos like COV COH vangard ect..
|
Luc Boye
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 00:16:00 -
[310]
I grew up on ZX Spectrum and C64, then went thru Amstrad, Amiga 500, and PC's since 1990 or so (286's and upwards). Different OS's and all that stuff, including linux, solaris etc. That being said I don't really have a "favorite" OS, I'm not really a zealot in any form. I'll use whatever does the job.
My gripe with windows is their stinky business schemes. I mean I can configure my windows not to crash, have good performance, and all that. I haven't picked a virus since 1998 or something. The parts that stink are:
1.) DRM - bad idea imo, not because stuff all of the sudden ain't "free", but because it shuts off everybody who opt's not to do it. Call me an idealist.
2.) No possibility of security audit and code review. I'm not saying that I'd do it, or even that I am competent enough to do it, but there is always someone out there who would. I don't wan't to participate in any Homeland security schemes, I am not a terrorist, but I wan't to remain as free(tm) as possible. Since my country is not raping arabs for oil, I don't really fear them either. So all that governmental spyware aint my cup of tea
3.) When I buy a product, I expect to type in code and be done with it, I don't want to call Microsoft every 2-3 weeks to reactive my Windows XP, just because some retarded developer at Microsoft regards repartitioning a hard drive as "hardware change". And yes, that just happened 2 days ago.
So as I can see it, Vista is a step in wrong direction, and I will probably pass.
That being said, I can understand why developers go for DirectX instead of OpenGL, after all, its not all about graphics, DX offers even netcode, sound, controllers, and similar abstractions. OpenGL only does graphics, SDL is not really there yet. On the other hand, if Blizzard can make WoW run on Mac, CCP could do something similar too, but maybe its too late now, or maybe is as simple as that CCP devs "can't be arsed" to port everything to OpenGL and learn new toolkits. That is human too.
Whatever happens, make sure that is NOT MANDATORY to run Windows Vista, cos I'd be sad to be forced to cancel my eve subscription.
|
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 00:31:00 -
[311]
Fierce Deity, yea, but the "support" in those MMO's is a few special missions and some graphical effects. Hardly worth $300.
And Luc, you can use OpenGL and still plug straight into the rest of DirectX quite easily. And the major changes between DX9 and DX10 are in the Direct3D portion.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Drizit
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 01:19:00 -
[312]
Originally by: BurnHard
You are right about administrator accounts - Vista will fix this issue I think. I don't think you are right about Windows XP being sub-standard. It's got issues, mainly due to IE being so deeply embedded into it and the various technology choices MS made to try and outsmart the competition and make it easier to use, which of course have been completely undone by the virus writers.
It was MS who instigated the administrator account running in the first place. Create any number of users when you install XP and those users are automatically administrators. The fact that you have a special account that is called "Administrator" is moot. You then have to log in to the administrators account which is ony available from safe mode unless you know what you are doing to downgrade all the other accounts you created.
Nearly 90% of games won't install unless you are running an administrators account. That really makes a mockery of trying to stop your kids doing things you don't want them to do unless you are going to install every game they want on their machine every time they want it. It seems that XP and security are, in truth, mutually incompatible. Whether Vista actually resolves this incomatibility will remain to be seen. It's fine in a protected Beta environment but wait until you get more and more third party programmers writing code for it, then we'll see how it really handles security.
When MS stop trying to boost their bank balance even more by releasing another buggy OS and start actually working to improve the OS' they have already released, then I'll start to have more respect for the company.
--
|
Splagada
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 01:24:00 -
[313]
Edited by: Splagada on 22/04/2006 01:24:04
ah come on... ms is bad etc...
if linux had the same interface as windows,as intuitive and all, it would probably lag at least more than windows...
(more because some of the MS common low level routines are hardcoded in intel and AMD chips eh)
edit : i was a huge linux fan, then xp came and ... why bother...
-
Member of [AAST] |
damicatz
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 03:47:00 -
[314]
Edited by: damicatz on 22/04/2006 03:48:53
First off, Linux doesn't have a graphical interface. It's a kernel. See, unlike Windows, not everything is welded into the operating system. The operating system is the kernel and the utilities required to preform basic functions. And you get a choice of interfaces. And most of them are more intuitive than Windows.
I personally cannot stand Window's focus system. I am used to the focus following the mouse so that I can copy text from a window that is partially obscured without having to bring it to the front. Windows has a focus follows mouse feature with TweakUI but if you click the window, it still brings it to the front.
Originally by: Splagada
Edited by: Splagada on 22/04/2006 01:24:04
ah come on... ms is bad etc...
if linux had the same interface as windows,as intuitive and all, it would probably lag at least more than windows...
(more because some of the MS common low level routines are hardcoded in intel and AMD chips eh)
edit : i was a huge linux fan, then xp came and ... why bother...
|
Morphisat
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 10:54:00 -
[315]
After seeing this devblog (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=322) it's kinda obvious that the devs are windows fanbois :(. Kinda sad really, it certainly explains this vista / dx10 thing.
|
Antipattern
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 15:10:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Morphisat
After seeing this devblog (http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=322) it's kinda obvious that the devs are windows fanbois :(. Kinda sad really, it certainly explains this vista / dx10 thing.
Yes, bad taste, ungrateful and shortsighted. Apparently their particular branch of the tree is the only thing that matters and is it irrelevant that they build their product on top of open standards/open source like Python, C/C++ and the Internet itself.
|
|
Redundancy
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 15:25:00 -
[317]
Edited by: Redundancy on 22/04/2006 15:31:40
I think you guys might be trying to read a little too much into "Sir Tuxford" wearing a "Tux sux" t-shirt. It's a joke.
|
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 15:52:00 -
[318]
"I think you guys might be trying to read a little too much into "Sir Tuxford" wearing a "Tux sux" t-shirt. It's a joke."
^,^ completely didn't think of linux aspect of that shirt until now... "Tux sux" on Tuxford seemed to have obvious and quite different implication ;s
|
Jaabaa Prime
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 17:04:00 -
[319]
Having read through most of this thread I am left asking myself a few questions.
Will Vista support OpenGL 2.0 ?
If the OpenGL support is something that the drivers deliver then I guess it will, and that it would also be capable of supporting DX10 eye candy, right ?
If a new engine is required to take advantages of these new features then why aren't the new features being implemented with the industry standard OpenGL ?
Would implementing an OpenGL graphics engine have other implications ?
Someone mentioned sound support as being a part of the DX specification, is there an equivalent to this that is a public standard ?
Was the decision to do DX10 made because of the developer's existing knowledge of the DX9 API ?
Would an OpenGL implementation require a completely different set of resource files to function ?
If the decision for the next graphics engine generation had gone to OpenGL would that really lead to more people from the Mac/linux community to start playing EVE ? Rather than just giving the existing player base the option to run EVE natively on their OS of choice ?
I guess I'm more for CCP supporting the industry standard OpenGL rather than the MS DX10 specification, I think would give CCP and us players more options for the future.
As far as I can tell, CCP seem to have stated that there are no plans to make Vista/DX10 a requirement to enjoy EVE. But, lets be honest here, you can't play EVE on Windows 3.x either, it will only be a matter of time before CCP shuts down the DX9 development, how far in the future this would be will be defined by the market penetration of Vista and DX10 hardware. Only time will tell.
--
Mini Skill Planner |
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 17:44:00 -
[320]
Jaabaa Prime, yes, it will. It'll need entirely new implimentations of the drivers to work properly, but that's true of most OS's in any case. If OpenGL2 was used, the rest...well, the major upgrades in DX10 are just to D3D10 from what's been said by microsoft, and you could quite easily go on using the rest of DirectX9.
And they've allready commited to DX10/Vista nearly a year before it's released Jaabaa, and hence are putting the future of Eve on it being a good games OS.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Virida
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 18:36:00 -
[321]
Vista will not support OpenGL 2.0 and do not support extension to openGL. So, from my knowledge, the openGL who runs, do it with an penalty to performance, and isnt "up to date" with the latest version.
|
damicatz
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 19:13:00 -
[322]
OpenGL 2.0 will run fine on Vista. You'll just have to disable the eye candy. That is a much better solution than excluding all non-Vista users in the future. Frankly, if Microsoft knew how to program in the first place, they could have used OpenGL to do the worthless eye candy but all they know how to do is steal, lie, and scam people.
And I find it odd that Redundancy decides to respond to the comment about the Tux Sucks t-shirt but has ignored the DX10 debate altogether.
Originally by: Virida
Vista will not support OpenGL 2.0 and do not support extension to openGL. So, from my knowledge, the openGL who runs, do it with an penalty to performance, and isnt "up to date" with the latest version.
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 20:16:00 -
[323]
"OpenGL 2.0 will run fine on Vista. You'll just have to disable the eye candy."
Gah, no... it was mentioned in the thread already, but there's three ways of getting openGL on Vista:
* no 3rd party vendor driver: hardware-accelerated openGL 1.4 done through directX ... maybe not full speed, but vast improvement over software-only openGL 1.1 provided by winXP and older
* current model 3rd party vendor driver: openGL all way up to 2.0+ depending on what exactly is implemented by vendor; disables Vista eyecandy
* new Vista-only 3rd party vendor driver: openGL all way up to 2.0+ depending on what exactly is implemented by vendor; works with the eyecandy and everything
|
damicatz
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 21:12:00 -
[324]
Vista-only OpenGL drivers are not OpenGL at all. They are Microsoft's altered version of OpenGL which does not confirm to standards.
Originally by: j0sephine
"OpenGL 2.0 will run fine on Vista. You'll just have to disable the eye candy."
Gah, no... it was mentioned in the thread already, but there's three ways of getting openGL on Vista:
* no 3rd party vendor driver: hardware-accelerated openGL 1.4 done through directX ... maybe not full speed, but vast improvement over software-only openGL 1.1 provided by winXP and older
* current model 3rd party vendor driver: openGL all way up to 2.0+ depending on what exactly is implemented by vendor; disables Vista eyecandy
* new Vista-only 3rd party vendor driver: openGL all way up to 2.0+ depending on what exactly is implemented by vendor; works with the eyecandy and everything
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 21:14:00 -
[325]
"Vista-only OpenGL drivers are not OpenGL at all. They are Microsoft's altered version of OpenGL which does not confirm to standards."
Err, and more specifically..? o.O
|
Nifel
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 21:23:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Splagada
Edited by: Splagada on 22/04/2006 01:24:04
ah come on... ms is bad etc...
if linux had the same interface as windows,as intuitive and all, it would probably lag at least more than windows...
(more because some of the MS common low level routines are hardcoded in intel and AMD chips eh)
edit : i was a huge linux fan, then xp came and ... why bother...
Best load of *******s these forums have seen so far this year.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 21:29:00 -
[327]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/04/2006 21:29:01
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Splagada
Edited by: Splagada on 22/04/2006 01:24:04
ah come on... ms is bad etc...
if linux had the same interface as windows,as intuitive and all, it would probably lag at least more than windows...
(more because some of the MS common low level routines are hardcoded in intel and AMD chips eh)
edit : i was a huge linux fan, then xp came and ... why bother...
Best load of *******s these forums have seen so far this year.
Second best IMO. The best one was Lifewire claiming BS could routinely hit 8km/s.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Nifel
|
Posted - 2006.04.22 21:52:00 -
[328]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/04/2006 21:29:01
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Splagada
Edited by: Splagada on 22/04/2006 01:24:04
ah come on... ms is bad etc...
if linux had the same interface as windows,as intuitive and all, it would probably lag at least more than windows...
(more because some of the MS common low level routines are hardcoded in intel and AMD chips eh)
edit : i was a huge linux fan, then xp came and ... why bother...
Best load of *******s these forums have seen so far this year.
Second best IMO. The best one was Lifewire claiming BS could routinely hit 8km/s.
Heh... I knew he was delusional but that takes the icing on the cake.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN14) Sama |
RedooM Meed
|
Posted - 2006.04.23 00:10:00 -
[329]
... installed antispyware beta from microsoft and it's bugged... installed last uptade from microsoft net browser and was bugged and had to uninstall it to the prior version. Two out of two good average on bugged out improvements.
I assume we are not likely to see Vista for a while. Came across a programmer at work who said he tryed Vista beta and they closed the download link due to bugs. I did'nt checked but it follow the rest of microsoft products. It's sad that any microsoft new build goes bezerk at some point. I hope vista wont follow the same path as windows 2000 and it will be a stable OS. That's my only wish. |
Mitram
|
Posted - 2006.04.23 00:50:00 -
[330]
Wouldn't it be better to move away from the Microsoft World by porting to OpenGL instead of DX10? You would get access to the continues growing Linux User community as well as to the MAC World.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11] 12 13 .. 13 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |