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Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
498
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 16:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Before ABCs were introduced to Tranquility, I remember playing around in a torpedo Naga on the test server. Compared to the other ABCs, the torpedo Naga had terrible damage application. Cruise missile had slightly better application, but were unbalanced for other reasons. In short, the "missile Naga" was bad. It was unbalanced. That's why it got axed and never made it onto tranquility.
BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE RAPID HEAVY MISSILE LAUNCHERS BACK THEN
I'd like to hear opinions on giving the Naga 8 missile hardpoints and some sort of bonus to RHMLs. Discuss. Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |

unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
never happen, CPP make it so ship bonus that affect damage application will not affect Heavy missile. but any ship bonus that increase damage/RoF will affect heavy.
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paritybit
Repo.
257
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Attack Battle Cruisers are supposed to be for killing battleships. Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers are for killing cruisers. I don't think you're going to get any traction here. |

Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
498
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
unidenify wrote:never happen, CPP make it so ship bonus that affect damage application will not affect Heavy missile. but any ship bonus that increase damage/RoF will affect heavy.
I'm not sure what you're saying. RHMLs wouldn't need a damage application bonus as they already apply their damage better than large turrets. Perhaps you were saying that CCP would never change the Naga to a missile boat? Well it was a missile boat before it was a gun boat so... it could happen. Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |

Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
498
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
paritybit wrote:Attack Battle Cruisers are supposed to be for killing battleships. Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers are for killing cruisers. I don't think you're going to get any traction here. I don't know anyone who would willingly choose to attack a battleship fleet with an ABC fleet. Battleships would tear them to shreds if the ABCs actually stayed to fight.
A possible Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus for the RHML Naga is "10% reduced reload time per level" :) Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |

Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2948
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rapid launchers are still inherently broken. Put me down for a cruise Naga, though... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:unidenify wrote:never happen, CPP make it so ship bonus that affect damage application will not affect Heavy missile. but any ship bonus that increase damage/RoF will affect heavy.
I'm not sure what you're saying. RHMLs wouldn't need a damage application bonus as they already apply their damage better than large turrets. Perhaps you were saying that CCP would never change the Naga to a missile boat? Well it was a missile boat before it was a gun boat so... it could happen.
I maybe misread your first post as that you want to have BS that also have damage application bonus apply to heavy, which far as I am aware, CPP prefer to not allow it.
edited; I am moron for think Naga is Miniatar BS, not notice that it is Caldari ABC.
either way, I guess they either overlook it or decide that it may be too overpowered.
you mention that they find issue with Cruise missile on Naga that make it unbalance. Maybe it is same reason?
b/w bonus to ROF is better than reload. because it will increase its burst dps, much like Scorpion Navy Issue's RoF bonus. |

Batelle
HOMELE55
1887
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
I bet you want a torp rokh too. Silly caldari. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
184
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'd suspect that not giving any of the ABC's missile slots or bonuses to missiles is a very deliberate choice to prevent them turning into unholy murdermachines capable of butchering any frigate in two volleys with a rack of 8 bonused RLM's.
High speed, moderate tank, and then a full rack of damage, range, or application boosted missiles on a Naga would make it your one stop shop for reducing a frig fleet to scared hiding in safespots. |

Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
498
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 17:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Batelle wrote:I bet you want a torp rokh too. Silly caldari. Be careful what you say on the internet. A madman might take you seriously.
[Rokh, TORP ROKH] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5
Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |

Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2948
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 20:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:I'd suspect that not giving any of the ABC's missile slots or bonuses to missiles is a very deliberate choice to prevent them turning into unholy murdermachines capable of butchering any frigate in two volleys with a rack of 8 bonused RLM's.
High speed, moderate tank, and then a full rack of damage, range, or application boosted missiles on a Naga would make it your one stop shop for reducing a frig fleet to scared hiding in safespots. And that would be bad how exactly? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
188
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 20:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Anhenka wrote:I'd suspect that not giving any of the ABC's missile slots or bonuses to missiles is a very deliberate choice to prevent them turning into unholy murdermachines capable of butchering any frigate in two volleys with a rack of 8 bonused RLM's.
High speed, moderate tank, and then a full rack of damage, range, or application boosted missiles on a Naga would make it your one stop shop for reducing a frig fleet to scared hiding in safespots. And that would be bad how exactly?
Because they were introduced as being a cheap high gank, low tank option for anti BS and anti Capital work.
This is reflected in the bonuses towards large turret weapons, but no bonuses towards other weapons sizes. Naga has no general hybrid bonuses, it has Large Hybrid Turret bonuses.
As such, then permitting them to use specialized anti-frig or cruiser attack options like RLML's, or RHML's would be a drastic departure from the original stated intent of the ships, it would also be the only ship in the game with excellent fitting options for dealing with any ship class. Something CCP does not like at all. |

Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2948
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 20:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:This is reflected in the bonuses towards large turret weapons, but no bonuses towards other weapons sizes. Naga has no general hybrid bonuses, it has Large Hybrid Turret bonuses.
As such, then permitting them to use specialized anti-frig or cruiser attack options like RLML's, or RHML's would be a drastic departure from the original stated intent of the ships, it would also be the only ship in the game with excellent fitting options for dealing with any ship class. Something CCP does not like at all. Like it or not, rapid heavy launchers are classified as a large weapon. While they have better damage application this is really no different than using Dual-250mm or 350mm hybrids instead of the 425mm version to achieve better tracking. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Damien White
Sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
110
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 20:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
But they are designed for combat against smaller ships, whereas ABC are designed to combat larger ships.
Btw the Torp Naga got canned because it ripped apart capitals and BS like there was no tomorrow, the first incarnation of the ship was OP beyond repair. 97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,
"DO A BARREL ROLL!" |

unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Damien White wrote:But they are designed for combat against smaller ships, whereas ABC are designed to combat larger ships.
Btw the Torp Naga got canned because it ripped apart capitals and BS like there was no tomorrow, the first incarnation of the ship was OP beyond repair.
what make it different than CNR with 8 torp launcher? |

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
189
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:] Like it or not, rapid heavy launchers are classified as a large weapon. While they have better damage application this is really no different than using Dual-250mm or 350mm hybrids instead of the 425mm version to achieve better tracking.
A: Naga would be the only non BS+ hull in the game capable of fitting them. This is not a good situation.
B: Naga can of course fit smaller unbonused guns to gain better tracking. So can the Oracle, the Tornado, and the Talos. They are garbage because they have no bonuses and are slapped on a BC hull, but you can fit them. Go ahead if you feel the need to have anti small ship weapons outweighs the need to do decent DPS. But don't expect the large weapon bonuses to work on them.
No non BS can fit RHML's, or Torps, mainly because they are such powerful weapon systems that permitting their use on damage bonused agile BC hulls would be insane.
The low tank and restrictions to guns means that ABC's are vulnerable to close range rapid orbit ships like interceptors, and this is a very important part of the balancing for them. You don't get to strap on 800+ DPS of anti frig/cruiser weaponry that does not require tracking and stroll of into the sunset on your winmobile.
Especially since none of the other ABC's could fit them. |

Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2948
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:] Like it or not, rapid heavy launchers are classified as a large weapon. While they have better damage application this is really no different than using Dual-250mm or 350mm hybrids instead of the 425mm version to achieve better tracking. A: Naga would be the only non BS+ hull in the game capable of fitting them. This is not a good situation. B: Naga can of course fit smaller unbonused guns to gain better tracking. So can the Oracle, the Tornado, and the Talos. They are garbage because they have no bonuses and are slapped on a BC hull, but you can fit them. Go ahead if you feel the need to have anti small ship weapons outweighs the need to do decent DPS. But don't expect the large weapon bonuses to work on them. No non BS can fit RHML's, or Torps, mainly because they are such powerful weapon systems that permitting their use on damage bonused agile BC hulls would be insane. The low tank and restrictions to guns means that ABC's are vulnerable to close range rapid orbit ships like interceptors, and this is a very important part of the balancing for them. You don't get to strap on 800+ DPS of anti frig/cruiser weaponry that does not require tracking and stroll of into the sunset on your winmobile. Especially since none of the other ABC's could fit them. A. Not true. Gnosis and Prophecy can fit 2-3 RHMLs. B. Also not true. Dual 250mm and 350mm guns receive the same bonuses on the Naga and Talos. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Damien White
Sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
110
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
You serious?
Speed, Mobility, small signature, low price, Med slotts en mass. You could cycle Capitals to death while dealing 1000+ DPS over 40-50km Range while having free choise of damage. 97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,
"DO A BARREL ROLL!" |

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
189
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: A. Not true. Gnosis and Prophecy can fit 2-3 RHMLs. B. Also not true. Dual 250mm and 350mm guns receive the same bonuses on the Naga and Talos.
A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there, even with several fitting mods. Only one without fitting mods, and it's entirely unbonused for a grand total of 88 DPS on a Gnosis. Fitting one or two useless unbonused oversized weapons on one hull is a terrible argument for being able to fit 8 bonused launchers on a same sized hull. This sort of argument only hurts your own case.
B: And they are both Large Hybrid Guns. Note the emphasis? They are not missiles, and while they are better at tracking than 425's, that does not make them specialized anti-cruiser/frig weapons like Rapid Missiles. |

Damien White
Sonnenlegion Shadow Cartel
110
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:
A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there,
Well, they work as well as Large AC on a Maller...
But they will look cool, like Large AC on a Maller ^^ 97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,
"DO A BARREL ROLL!" |

Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
79
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Many people who were watching the initial release of the naga saw that they were giving it equal viability with missiles as they did with hybrids; 10% range boost to both. I could see a compromise to what you're talking about would to just give it 8 unbonused missile slots, so we can be silly and fit cruise missile launchers on it and kite fleets at 150km out, laughing maniacally as we watch our alpha blast through lightly tanked cruisers. :D |

Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2948
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there, even with several fitting mods. Only one without fitting mods, and it's entirely unbonused for a grand total of 88 DPS on a Gnosis. Fitting one or two useless unbonused oversized weapons on one hull is a terrible argument for being able to fit 8 bonused launchers on a same sized hull. This sort of argument only hurts your own case.
B: And they are both Large Hybrid Guns. Note the emphasis? They are not missiles, and while they are better at tracking than 425's, that does not make them specialized anti-cruiser/frig weapons like Rapid Missiles. A. Run the numbers - you can fit 3 RHMLs on a Gnosis quite easily. And you're incorrect, as the Gnosis gets a +25% damage bonus to heavy missiles - so that's equivalent to 4 RHMLs. My point was not that you should or that it's advisable, but merely that you can.
B. Rapid heavy launchers are HEAVY missile weapons. Note the emphasis? And would you please stop referring to RHMLs as "anti-frigate" weapons? No one in their right mind uses heavy missiles against frigates.
C. If you want to talk about an anti-frigate missile platform, may I direct you to a RLML-equipped Drake? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
79
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Anhenka wrote:A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there, even with several fitting mods. Only one without fitting mods, and it's entirely unbonused for a grand total of 88 DPS on a Gnosis. Fitting one or two useless unbonused oversized weapons on one hull is a terrible argument for being able to fit 8 bonused launchers on a same sized hull. This sort of argument only hurts your own case.
B: And they are both Large Hybrid Guns. Note the emphasis? They are not missiles, and while they are better at tracking than 425's, that does not make them specialized anti-cruiser/frig weapons like Rapid Missiles. A. Run the numbers - you can fit 3 RHMLs on a Gnosis quite easily. And you're incorrect, as the Gnosis gets a +25% damage bonus to heavy missiles - so that's equivalent to 4 RHMLs. My point was not that you should or that it's advisable, but merely that you can. B. Rapid heavy launchers are HEAVY missile weapons. Note the emphasis? And would you please stop referring to RHMLs as "anti-frigate" weapons? No one in their right mind uses heavy missiles against frigates. C. If you want to talk about an anti-frigate missile platform, may I direct you to a RLML-equipped Drake?
Drake could use kin damage bonus to rapid lights...
|

unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote: A. Not true. Gnosis and Prophecy can fit 2-3 RHMLs. B. Also not true. Dual 250mm and 350mm guns receive the same bonuses on the Naga and Talos.
A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there, even with several fitting mods. Only one without fitting mods, and it's entirely unbonused for a grand total of 88 DPS on a Gnosis. Fitting one or two useless unbonused oversized weapons on one hull is a terrible argument for being able to fit 8 bonused launchers on a same sized hull. This sort of argument only hurts your own case. B: And they are both Large Hybrid Guns. Note the emphasis? They are not missiles, and while they are better at tracking than 425's, that does not make them specialized anti-cruiser/frig weapons like Rapid Missiles.
There are no other non-BS ship beside Tornado that can equip Large projectile Turret, same for Energy weapon with Oracle so what is exactly your argument here?
in fact, if we change Naga to Missile, Talos would be only non BS ship that can equip large Hybrid. |

Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2948
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 21:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Drake could use kin damage bonus to rapid lights... Yeah, the lack of consistency when it comes to rapid launcher-specific bonuses leaves something to be desired (and not limited to just the Drake).
unidenify wrote:There are no other non-BS ship beside Tornado that can equip Large projectile Turret, same for Energy weapon with Oracle so what is exactly your argument here?
in fact, if we change Naga to Missile, Talos would be only non BS ship that can equip large Hybrid. And I see no problem with that. In fact, the Naga is somewhat of an anomaly considering the dominant nature of missiles in Caldari ships. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
190
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 22:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
unidenify wrote:
There are no other non-BS ship beside Tornado that can equip Large projectile Turret, same for Energy weapon with Oracle so what is exactly your argument here?
in fact, if we change Naga to Missile, Talos would be only non BS ship that can equip large Hybrid.
All large guns, regardless of race, have to operate under the same general principles of optimal/falloff/tracking/ gun and target signature radius. They may have moderately differing stats in regards to optimal, falloff, tracking speed, and damage types, but they still need to follow the combat guidelines of large turrets.
Missiles on the other hand do not. They follow differing rules that permit them to damage targets under the tracking of large guns more effectively, and Naga would be the only one capable of using them effectively on a BC or lower hull.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
B. Rapid heavy launchers are HEAVY missile weapons. Note the emphasis? And would you please stop referring to RHMLs as "anti-frigate" weapons? No one in their right mind uses heavy missiles against frigates.
C. If you want to talk about an anti-frigate missile platform, may I direct you to a RLML-equipped Drake?
Lets suppose that Naga gets a 5% per level damage bonus to these RHML's. Probably a decent assumption. Let's also assume that it get's no bonuses to explosion velocity, explosion radius, or missile velocity. (probably unlikely)
8 launchers * 1.25 = 10 effective launchers.
Now can anyone guess how well a 10 effective launcher Naga packing Precision missiles while using one or more TP's and 2 Rigor Catalysts + a Flare Catalyst will do against non interceptor Frigates? A good benchmark is roughly 700 DPS with Precisions for such a ship using a double BCS fit.
The answer is damn well. Interceptors will still kite it easily, but a good interceptor can kite Warrior II's, so that's a bad benchmark. Anything less is liekly to be chewed up and spat out in short order.
If it's not a Frig, load Fury and unload 900-1k DPS of tracking immune missiles into the cruiser, reducing it to wreckage in short order.
TLDR: RHML's can be be very potent against frigs and cruisers as long as the naga fits a TP and application rigs.
|

Anhenka
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
190
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 22:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: And I see no problem with that. In fact, the Naga is somewhat of an anomaly considering the dominant nature of missiles in Caldari ships.
You mean besides Rail/blaster Ferox, Rohk, Tengu, Eagle, Moa, Vulture, Cormorant, Merlin, Raptor, Harpy, and probably several others I can't name off the top of my head?
Edit: Missiles for caldari is mostly a myth in PvP. The large majority of Caldari ships in PvP are either Rail boats or ECM focused. There are some ships like the Cerb, Tengu, and Caracal which are used, but most Caldari PvP is done with rails or ECM. |

Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
2948
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 22:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Lets suppose that Naga gets a 5% per level damage bonus to these RHML's. Probably a decent assumption. Let's also assume that it get's no bonuses to explosion velocity, explosion radius, or missile velocity. (probably unlikely)
8 launchers * 1.25 = 10 effective launchers.
Now can anyone guess how well a 10 effective launcher Naga packing Precision missiles while using one or more TP's and 2 Rigor Catalysts + a Flare Catalyst will do against non interceptor Frigates? A good benchmark is roughly 700 DPS with Precisions for such a ship using a double BCS fit.
The answer is damn well. Interceptors will still kite it easily, but a good interceptor can kite Warrior II's, so that's a bad benchmark. Anything less is liekly to be chewed up and spat out in short order.
If it's not a Frig, load Fury and unload 900-1k DPS of tracking immune missiles into the cruiser, reducing it to wreckage in short order.
TLDR: RHML's can be be very potent against frigs and cruisers as long as the naga fits a TP and application rigs.
There are only two ships that get RHML damage bonuses - the Gnosis and Typhoon Fleet, and at 4-6 launchers I think it's safe to say if the Naga were to be retrofitted for missiles it would probably receive missile and explosion velocity. There's no way it would receive a +25% damage bonus because this would put it on par with the State Raven, and I just don't see that happening. I like the idea of a missile-based Naga, but I'm also a realist... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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