Isn't that what the NOS bonus is supposed to do?

Not a hugely important thing, but I've always wondered why the Vigilant and Vindicator have green backgrounds and the Daredevil has the rust background of Minmatar/Cartel. Also, why the ship is colored Minmatar/Cartel while the other two have distinctive Guardian/Serpentis colors.

lolwtf

The worm got a damage buff for both missiles and drones. What are you talking about?

And where, exactly will you fit the tank for this on top of the prop mod, and obligatory scram/web?

Uh. I think that is a little too much damage. How about making the Caldari bonus the damage bonus and the role bonus a velocity a to missiles and drones.

The double damage and resists bonus is a bit too much too. I was thinking something like:

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
10% to drone damage and hitpoints

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% to rocket and light missile damage

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to drones, rockets and light missile max velocity

Bonus wise it's better in every way, to the point of being severely OP I'd think. Only think it lacks is room for spares.

No its not, the drones in the OP hit harder, and have more hit points, yours does absolutely nothing better in any regard except your drones are faster, at which point who cares - WOO LOOK AT ME MAH MY DRONES GO FAST.

You are literally insane. You seem to think that its balanced having a frig do just short of 300 dps with no damage mods whatsoever (an enyo can only achieve that with void fitted and a magstab). not only do you have that much dps, but you want a huge bonus to the damage application of 2/3's of it on top. How on earth can you think that is balanced.

So... a 400 DPS tanky frigate. Not balanced.

I've taken a look at the Gila and one thing I noticed is that it is one of the few cruisers that can field large drones/sentry turrets, which is kind of "oversized" drones for its hull

That being said, none of the frigates can do that (field of mediums), so maybe the Gallente Frigate bonus could be a 5Mbits/s per level. That way you'd be able to field 5 Hammerheads at Gallente Frigate V, which is EXACLTY the same dps of "effective" 8 hobgoblins (158dps without mods). Of course, there are the differences in tracking and so on, but I think that would be fun. That would also give webs a good synergy since that would help both the missiles and the drones to apply DPS.

WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
5Mbit/s Drone Bandwidth (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity

I'm not understanding what you're not liking about these bonuses, I feel like there's something you're not understanding.

Are the drone bays for the Guristas ships getting nerfed, or are we still going to have a large drone bay to play with even though we will only use 2 drones at a time?
Also, will bandwith be nerfed on these ships?

They're not just a couple of disposable weapons

Sounds better than what? Why are you so determined to change the bonuses?

Is there a good reason to want to have > 5 drones?

Unique doesn't mean good. You've in no way justified calling that bonus "better." It was unjustified in the SOE threads and is similarly unjustified here.

When can we see the cruisers and battleships?

If we get what I'm [not-so-secretly] hoping for, the Rattler will become a non-sentry drone platform! ^^;

Fun is subjective, for instance, drones with greater survivability would be more fun for me, which is what the current worm proposal gives.

5/10 drones with better survivability would work, their is no need to have two super mega brutal drones of doom on the Worm.

What the balls are you doing to the Worm? What role is it filling? 50% damage bonus to TWO launchers?!

What happened? You all did spectacular on T1 frigates, you made T1 cruisers across the board useable. What changed at battlecruisers? Why didn't anyone notice the change at battleships? Why all of this super experimental crap? Why? Look, if you want Gurista ships to also bother with fitting missiles- you're going to need to give them at least one more launcher across the board, in addition to a damage bonus like that. Either that, or bump up that to a 100-125% damage bonus to these two damage types with two launchers, or 75%, or SOMETHING. Literally the only change I agree with for the Worm is the addition of PG and CPU- that'll at least open up new sorts of fits.

Seems like the people arguing for the "5 drone vanilla Worm" don't really explain why besides just repeating "That's how it is supposed to be!" ad naseum. Any chance one of them comes up with an actual reason besides "Cuz..."?

Again, you had to go to some length to crop my post enough to be able to miss the point this thoroughly (and I have since edited the original to avoid similar derping), nonetheless, I'll bite:

It is a function of opportunity cost. You seem to be the type to noisily proclaim that "Minerals I mine are FREEEEE!!", while blissfully ignorant of the fact that almost every decision anyone makes represents the sacrifice of an alternative. In this particular case, no new option has been 'enabled', as you put it; merely an old one has been 'subsidized'. This means that every other option is comparatively less attractive, as you now must sacrifice more (in the form of potential bonus missile damage) to take advantage of other available options.

Those light drones with 300% HP bonus are gonna be as tough as attack frigates. Add a drone durability rig and they will be almost impossible to kill.... they will also be hitting very hard. It will be like having an extra 2 ships with you

The usefulness of the nav bonus to drones it to make it faster to recall/redeploy drones that are being shot at, not neccessariliy to make the worm uber versus speed tanked frigs.

On its own pretty scrub, but if its part of a compound hp/dps/nav bonus its fine.

So nav bonus will be great for all pve as well as pvp against brawler frigs , all cruisers and up.

The Sansha ships take their heavy shield from the Caldari line, so a ship bonus giving it perhaps a signature reduction, or improvement in shield resistance would make some sense. I agree though, the AB is more minmatar, and is probably better suited to the Blood Raider ships.

I'd much prefer Sansha to stick to their fundamental aspects which are having a heavy shield and delivering heavy damage. An afterburner really makes little sense. If you really want to give it something stand out then take the ECM aspect from caldari ships and perhaps give a bonus to ECM drones.

Yes this makes a lot of sense, I would rather go with the shield resistances than an afterburner bonus, and then Amarr delivers all the energy weapon bonuses which makes a lot more sense.

I still think it would be quite cool, and also quite 'sansha' for them to have bonused ecm drones though. But giving shield resistances is a good and safe option.

I'm sorry to say CCP Rise, but these all seem like well thought out ideas that are good for once. I'm as shocked as you, amazing. But a till we see changes to the cruisers and battleships who really knows. I do think pirate faction frigates still won't stand up against AF like they once did, but these chances will make them better ships as a whole.

About the true missile pirate faction ship. I have talked about this before. As the SoE ships are Amarr/Gal, I'd say a Cald/Min pirate faction ship is in store, and making it into a true missile platform shouldn't be an issue. The issue is what faction would it be, and the bonuses to the ship. A whole new ship design be sweet also.

1) Yes DPS is identical and also crap
2) Yes that seems to be the intended meta but with crap dps its kinda meh
3) Pulses? It will die quickly. Terrible ship to brawl with.
4) the AB bonus is intriguing but without an agility bonus alongside it...or an optimal range bonus to make it truly useful for kiting as is suggested...it will of course be lack luster.

The Succubus is still the worst of the faction frigates. Out DPS'd, out maneuvered, out-bonused (by ships witth actual combat bonuses like long webs and nos/neut efffectiveness, web effectiveness, drone dps and missile damage bonii or just plain ole better (Dramiel)).

It offers nothing in terms of small gang or fleet combat that other ships don't do more effectively. Kite? Worm/Dram even rail daredevil. Hell use a slicer cause at least it gets an optimal range bonus.

Brawl? The same. This ship is one of the most cap intensive ships with no payoff for it. Lasers **** cap into space. the cruor at least partially overcomes this with its spiffy new nos bonus. The Worm? Not cap intensive unless you try to active tank it. The Daredevil? Still the same...great defensive frigate/assault ship. The Dramiel is a great vanguard frigate/faction assault frigate.

what should sansha do? Massive concentration on laser and shield systems. The damage bonus should be twice what it is (200%) with only two turrets (2=4 instead of 2=3.5) or something. Forget sansha AB speed, give it large base shield HP and a sig reduction bonus per level like an interceptor.

Faction frigates are kind of hybrids of t2 and t1 ships. The faction bonuses are kind of like combining assault frigate and electronic attack ship bonuses in hulls that have assault frigate and interceptor hybrid properties.

Of course the fact that sansha NPC rats still armor tank doesn't help the confused nature of sansha hulls in general. Probably should have combined the laser damage bonus with tracking disruptor bonuses making it stronger in a 1v1 fight than say a sentinel would be...and be more of a dangerous opponent in a 1v1 encounter.

Oh wow 10mn version can do 5K! who gives a fark. unless it has stats proportionate to a 100mn Tengu with 400 compensation for rigs. At least then you might be able to fit some pulses and scorch and run around ninja'ing in and out of webs immune to scrams. But since it won't have the requisite 15K ehp for a frigate to do that...its useless. Not enough bulk shield...no ability to do dps. might as well fly a harpy or hawk to be honest. This offers no real advantage

Refuse the bonus to effectiveness on the nos and no the dual range/effectiveness of the webs. The range itself is a strong trait and the effectiveness you suggested is 100% reduction in speed. Pick one or the other and if you pick web effectiveness the best you can argue is 90%.

People need to stop with all the incorrect mathematics before interjecting into balance discussions.

A 200% bonus on 2 turrets would be the equivalent of 8 turrets.

A 150% bonus is the equivalent of the current unchanged cruor's two damage bonuses put together.

The proposed version is doing 10% less dps than the Cruor currently available on Tranquility right now.

I agree that people need to stop with this incorrect math...

2 turrets with 200% bonus = 6 turrets not 8!

2+(2*200%) = 2+4 = 6

WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
12% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per lvl

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% to rocket and light missile max velocity

Role Bonus:
90% to drone microwarpdrive speed, tracking, falloff range and optimal range

drone bandwidth/drone bay: 25/50

12% drone damage and hitpoints equals to 3 aditional drones at lvl V skills, thus giving 8 effective drones, the 90% bonus makes unnecesary to use other drone mods apart of the damage ones, so the ship can focus in tank or other uses for its midslots

90% == 3 DNCs II/Omnis II without stacking penalty (totals to 90% speed, 90% optimal and falloff and 45% tracking)

with those statistics:

5 hobs II == 264 DPS (using 3 DDAs II)

now add T2 LMLs with Fury == 264+39 == 303 DPS (309 with rockets and Rage) that without adding implants and links and aditional rigs (guess people will shove drone durability enhancers instead of any missile stuff)

as a tradeoff the ship looses its resistance bonus..

You aren't at all excited about the potential for Brawling Torp Rattler with Super Ogres/Berserkers?

I think that eats into the widow's niche pretty substantially and I don't think there is enough clamor for ecm BS's to warrant 3 small variants. I could be alone in that line of thought though. Where I am not alone is thinking that 3x new ECM ships would too much and basically ruin most low-sec fights that are already at about 50/50 shot of having a falcon involved.

Actually, Shield HP +% would be a good Sansha flavor bonus.

As far as I can remember, the only %HP hull bonus is the Damnation armor, so Sansha being a marriage of Caldari and Amarr might do the same thing to the shields.

Obviously, care would have to be taken here. Big shields can get quite the passive regen rate, and as the Damnation shows it does not take much with that kind of bonus to push your HP into the realms of silly.

I said from the beginning that the AB bonus should be the role bonus, and the Caldari bonus should be something thematic relating to that race.

I am not about to worry what a given bonus will do to the cruisers or battleships. These things can be adjusted on those hulls when the time comes. These ships follow themes, they are not cloned and just made bigger.

My main worry with a %hp shield bonus is the passive Regen. At some point you can get enough shields that you have the regen of a booster without actually having a booster. I dont think this will be much of an issue with a frigates limited slots though, so 10%/level is probably fine. It bears watching though. I am not terribly pleased with a tracking bonus as both Amarr and Caldari favor optimal range bonuses on their turrets. I can see where a tracking bonus is needed at the boosted AB speed, but I am not sure that it would not be better to have them pull some range, fly at something other than 100% when fireing, or other pilot skill solutions to that problem. I would like to see this:

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
30% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
10% bonus to shield hitpoints per lvl

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Afterburner Velocity
35% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range (or tracking if it determined this is really needed, not just better)

Why is this impossible to balance? The ship goes from 7.5 effective drones to 8, assuming theres a restriction capping it at 2 active drones.



There's no reason guristas needs to solve this instead of it being fixed for all drones.