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Nate Gordo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2014.02.26 13:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
I admire that CCP continue to re-balance the ships in EVE making this game continuously accessible for newer players. While a lot has recently been done to address entry into the cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships, I feel little is being done to help out some of the older players. Often seen as the pinnacle in this game is the transition into capital class ships be it carriers or dreadnoughts. The recent announcement that pirate ships are to be tweaked, leaves me still concerned, that capitals are far from thought. With the apparent increase in capital ship use, as seen with the recent battle in B-R5RB, and with what is seen on KB's there appears to be a distinct bias to particular races of ship, with Gallente (Nyx, Thanatos) and Amarrian (Aeon, Archon) being the clear favorites. Could this be because these are the armor tankers, in which case that should be addressed as the an issue with shields. Or is that the bonuses granted to the Minmatar (Hel and Nidhoggur) and (Chimera and Wyvern) are just not sufficient to make them real contenders, being non viable options and limiting the choice to players. Soon cap fleets will consist of ships of just two races, losing some of the premise of the game.
The situation reminds me of what is often seen in the commercial world where a company gives offers to new players (or people that sign up) while nothing is done to retain those who have chosen a certain progression. I understand that CCP and EVE is a commercial operation, but I still believe that more can be done to honor commitment to the game.
Please support the Balance of capitals so that all can be used equally! |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
252
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Posted - 2014.02.26 13:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
You're seeing the Thanatos used? I thought it was Archons all the way down...
The use of the Nid is not due to a prejudice against shield tankers as it can be armour tanked - it's that when the Nid is tanked in shield it's very difficult to fit shield transfers to it, and when tanked in armour it is similarly difficult to load with Remote Armour Reps - it therefore rarely has an effective synergy with its fleetmates and is therefore not particularly valuable.
I don't know of anyone using chimera-centric shield doctrines but there was talk some time ago of adding additional pirate implant sets, in particular a Crystal "Slave" set which would boost Shield HP rather than rep and would therefore go some way towards countering the trend towards armour fleets.
I would debate your assertion that capitals are the the most significant milestone in the transition from newbie to veteran - let alone the pinnacle of that transition however. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1452
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Posted - 2014.02.26 13:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Delusions of grandeur are hardly a basis for higher priority in balancing order. And class used by less than 1% of population is most definitely not even near the top of tiercide list. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3194
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Posted - 2014.02.26 14:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9083
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Posted - 2014.02.26 15:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Delusions of grandeur are hardly a basis for higher priority in balancing order. And class used by less than 1% of population is most definitely not even near the top of tiercide list. They may be used by a minority of the population but they have a considerably stronger effect on overall game balance than almost any of the ships they're looking at now, with the possible exceptions of HICs and logi (neither of which I expect to be changed much).
Capitals should not be last in the rebalancing effort. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
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Posted - 2014.02.26 15:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.
timeline?
pirates summer when is summer exactly? will T2 ships be done before or after pirates? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1749
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Posted - 2014.02.26 15:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals. timeline? pirates summer when is summer exactly? will T2 ships be done before or after pirates?
I am guessing at the min 18 months before caps are touched
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1453
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Posted - 2014.02.26 15:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:They may be used by a minority of the population but they have a considerably stronger effect on overall game balance than almost any of the ships they're looking at now, with the possible exceptions of HICs and logi (neither of which I expect to be changed much).
Capitals should not be last in the rebalancing effort.
Let's not mistake pixel politics for game balance. And forgive me for saying that but caps are hardly ever necessary to field outside of sov matters. The fact that some people notoriously drop them everywhere doesn't exactly mean they are in dire need of taking higher place on tiercide waiting list. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9083
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Posted - 2014.02.26 15:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sov is exactly why capital ships merit more immediate consideration. Even if it were true that it's the only stage where capitals are useful or necessary (it isn't). "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
1084
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Posted - 2014.02.26 16:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nate Gordo wrote:Gallente (Nyx, Thanatos) and Amarrian (Aeon, Archon) being the clear favorites.
In what world is the Thanatos good? |
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unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2014.02.26 16:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
I always wonder if it has to do with Armour tank doctrine going in capital ship?
(I can't help but notice that there are no set implant that boost shield tank for capital ship, while there are one for armour. possible it play small role in armour tank doctrine?) |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
237
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Posted - 2014.02.26 16:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:You're seeing the Thanatos used? I thought it was Archons all the way down...
The use of the Nid is not due to a prejudice against shield tankers as it can be armour tanked - it's that when the Nid is tanked in shield it's very difficult to fit shield transfers to it, and when tanked in armour it is similarly difficult to load with Remote Armour Reps - it therefore rarely has an effective synergy with its fleetmates and is therefore not particularly valuable.
I don't know of anyone using chimera-centric shield doctrines but there was talk some time ago of adding additional pirate implant sets, in particular a Crystal "Slave" set which would boost Shield HP rather than rep and would therefore go some way towards countering the trend towards armour fleets.
I would debate your assertion that capitals are the the most significant milestone in the transition from newbie to veteran - let alone the pinnacle of that transition however.
Nighoggur (and Thanatos) are not used because of fitting problems, but becuase of the massive HP/resist advantage that the archon provides. As an example, a standard t2 hardener/t1 trimark archon compared against a similarly fit nidhoggur has 44% more total ehp (with more of that in useable armor rather than wasted in shield), and 55% more resists, which makes the nidhoggur completely unusable. The thanatos is in pretty much the same place with the same slot layout and lack of resist bonus, but with a meager bump in armor EHP.
If supercarriers were as easy to replace as carriers, I can pretty much guarantee that you would see the extinction of Nyxes in favor of Aeons as well, at least in nullsec where the extra mid and DPS is largely irrelevant. There's a reason it's actually somewhat difficult to find aeons on the sell order forum.
The amarr (and caldari) capital advantage of a resist bonus AND an extra tank slot AND the most base HP in their respective tank compounds to make it very hard to justify flying the odd ships out, at least outside very specific use cases (thanatos gets the short end of the stick here since you cant even use it's extra bonus for anything useful anymore)
Regarding shield capital fleets, Darkness of Despair has built up a chimera/wyvern centric fleet. NC. and PL (as well as other allieances I'm sure) also maintain chimeras among at least part of their members in order to defend shield timers. The actual stats of the chimera/naglfar/wyvern/ragnorak are actually pretty impressive, especially when you consider that the ships dont get any help from slave-like implants, but while the major players still have hundreds of nearly entirely armor supercapitals, there is never going to be a big paradigm shift over to shield due to the inability to support these ships. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Anomalous Existence
84
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Posted - 2014.02.26 21:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
well i think very soon they will be balanced. currently have a toon training to carrier lvl 5 and shortly before done or just shortly after my skilling goal gets captured by ccp as it happend already 3 times to me. so in around 40 days from now... fly safe mates |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
37
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Posted - 2014.02.26 21:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Nate Gordo wrote:Gallente (Nyx, Thanatos) and Amarrian (Aeon, Archon) being the clear favorites. In what world is the Thanatos good? The fighter damage bonus only applies to fighters, and fighters are... well there's a reason people use sentry drones instead. The Chimera has fitting issues as well as cap issues. The Nidhoggur has really good RR bonuses, but can't use them without excessive usage of fitting mods, or self-tanking what you aren't repping. The Archon does everything well and doesn't have any glaring issues. If you aren't flying an Archon, you're doing it wrong.
The rampant problem with Thanatos and Nid is cap and remote transfer range. The comedy of Archon wars in eve for this amount of time illustrates just how unbalanced it is - RR bonus pointless if you cant RR due to cap.
As for the Nid itself - give me a Dev that can justify the turd that it really is. Give a reason why fitting on an Archon is so easy compared to the Chimera, why there are no shield implants. Why the overbonus of resists per level.
Its so far out of whack with Caps that its the one statement you can say in eve without any argument. Train Archon. Forget the rest. |
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
366
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Posted - 2014.02.27 02:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals. timeline? pirates summer when is summer exactly? will T2 ships be done before or after pirates?
Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
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Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
494
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Posted - 2014.02.27 03:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
SoonGäó |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9083
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:well i think very soon they will be balanced. currently have a toon training to carrier lvl 5 and shortly before done or just shortly after my skilling goal gets captured by ccp as it happend already 3 times to me. so in around 40 days from now... fly safe mates I also have a character which will complete Amarr Carrier V in just over two weeks. I still think they need to be rebalanced. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Oxide Ammar
77
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Posted - 2014.02.27 08:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.
Oh god the list so long and we are going to complete second year in only balancing ships. we are still missing:
1- Black Ops 2- DST 3- Bombers 4- capitals (especially caldari line)
Can we have all these tackled in one expansion and be done with ship balancing ? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9083
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Posted - 2014.02.27 08:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Oxide Ammar wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals. Oh god the list so long and we are going to complete second year in only balancing ships. we are still missing: 1- Black Ops 2- DST 3- Bombers 4- capitals (especially caldari line) Can we have all these tackled in one expansion and be done with ship balancing ? So you want them to rush through a bunch of changes that they can't possibly test as thoroughly as is necessary because you're under the mistaken impression that rebalancing will be over and done with after this iteration? "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1133
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Posted - 2014.02.27 11:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Capitals are such a mess that I'd have them as higher priority than T3s. I think they'd be easier to balance than T3s too.
For carriers, the Thanatos is worthless and the Archon is the best choice for any armour situation. For dreads, the Phoenix is worthless unless you're doing mental stuff like dreadbowling or nanodreads, while the Revelation is simply obsolete. |
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Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
82
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Posted - 2014.02.27 14:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:
The use of the Nid is not due to a prejudice against shield tankers as it can be armour tanked - it's that when the Nid is tanked in shield it's very difficult to fit shield transfers to it, and when tanked in armour it is similarly difficult to load with Remote Armour Reps - it therefore rarely has an effective synergy with its fleetmates and is therefore not particularly valuable.
I've been doing some testing on the test server and have found a shield tanked Nidhoggur and Remote Armor Repair works well if it is a solo Triage Carrier. The massive burst tank from shield tanking allows you to tank multiple Dreads for quite a while and at the same time you can support an armor subcap doctrine (I'm thinking Armor T3s will work well with it). Not a bad cap time either and solid buffer with Power Diagnostics in the lows (which doesn't sacrifice your shield boosting power).
All in all Nid is in a good Niche of POS repping and solo Triage I'd argue. As soon as you take it away from logi work on structures or bring 2 carriers instead of one.. the Archon instantly becomes superior. -Bl+¦d |
Serith Ellecon
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
29
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Posted - 2014.02.27 14:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
As a wormhole cap pilot, these are the issues I've seen:
Thanny: Fitting- Fitted for armour tank and full triage armour reps, it's short on grid enough to need implants. Defenses- Too weak in comparison to an Archon. Hull bonus : Pretty much useless as fighters suck. No energy transfer range bonus, so of limited use in a fleet.
Archon: No real downsides to this one other than it is boring to look at. However, nerfing it significantly will hurt in wormholes. Archons being the only armour carrier capable of standing up to 3 full waves of escalation sleeper battleships for long enough to run sites.
Chimera: Used similarly to the Archon in shield bonused wormholes, but extremely tight on CPU, and like the thanny, needs implants to work right.
Nidhoggur: Slot layout: Terrible. Not enough mids to run a good shield tank. Fitting: Not enough of anything Capacitor: Runs out about 30 picoseconds after you get in the thing. (may be a slight exaggeration, but not by much) Hull bonus: Pointless as it will run out of cap if you use any of your lows/mids for any kind of a tank worthy of the name. No energy transfer range bonus, so of limited use in a fleet. (Plus - did I mention capacitor issues?)
In short, the Archon is pretty much the perfect carrier for anything you'd want an armour carrier for, except repping a large POS shield. Every other carrier is second rate by comparison, and the poor niddy didn't even make it to be rated because it ran out of cap on the way and couldn't make the last jump.
Yes, something needs to be done to lower the Archon infestation of Nullsec, but not at the expense of the other uses. Could I suggest the re-balance be centred around the triage module? If that were made more effective, then a significant change to the base carrier stats could be made without hurting the wormholers. Inappropriate signature added.-á CCP Notarealdev. |
Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
55
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Posted - 2014.02.28 06:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Serith Ellecon wrote:As a wormhole cap pilot, these are the issues I've seen: [...] Archon: No real downsides to this one other than it is boring to look at. However, nerfing it significantly will hurt in wormholes. Archons being the only armour carrier capable of standing up to 3 full waves of escalation sleeper battleships for long enough to run sites. [...] Yes, something needs to be done to lower the Archon infestation of Nullsec, but not at the expense of the other uses. Could I suggest the re-balance be centred around the triage module? If that were made more effective, then a significant change to the base carrier stats could be made without hurting the wormholers.
As a wormholer myself, I say adapt. If you don't want to nerf the archon because it'll impact on our isk/h then you are the wrong kind of wormholer imho. While I myself don't know whether I think all carriers should be nerfed to different extents or just the archon (chimera as well), I know for certain that the archon needs to be brought in line with the others. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
37
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Posted - 2014.02.28 10:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lina Theist wrote: ...
As a wormholer myself, I say adapt. If you don't want to nerf the archon because it'll impact on our isk/h then you are the wrong kind of wormholer imho. While I myself don't know whether I think all carriers should be nerfed to different extents or just the archon (chimera as well), I know for certain that the archon needs to be brought in line with the others.
So - make the archon impossible to fit, have half the tank, make it impossible to fit armour reppers while having a local armour tank. Get rid of its cap range bonus .. should bring it inline.
... let imagine thats not how it will happen.
Chimera - more CPU should fix it. Thanatos - local rep bonus should be good. Archon - lets leave it alone more or less. Nid - give it an insane cap recharge rate bonus. Fix the fitting issues, fix the flipped tank fitting issues.
Add implants for shield akin to slaves, or remove slaves from caps - it unbalances all tiers.
Basically would make the Thanatos and Nid more 'solo' logistic. The Chimera and Archon gang. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
126
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Posted - 2014.02.28 18:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
Question for CCP Ytterbium:
Will there be a need to 'rebalance' the range of four Freighters during the capital ship rebalancing ??
Personally I don't feel there is a need to do anything to them even with the recent changes to warp speed.
If the Freighters were 'rebalanced' would they be touched by the ugly stick..... ahem.....I meant will their BPO's suffer the indignity of needing 'extra materials' ??
Thank you in advance for any thoughts you may have regarding this issue. |
bundy bear
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.02.28 18:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.
No mention of the rorqual, the only ship in the game that you have to sit in a POS bubble to use. |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
84
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Posted - 2014.03.01 04:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rab See wrote:
Thanatos - local rep bonus should be good.
Nid - give it an insane cap recharge rate bonus. Fix the fitting issues, fix the flipped tank fitting issues.
Add implants for shield akin to slaves, or remove slaves from caps - it unbalances all tiers.
Basically would make the Thanatos and Nid more 'solo' logistic. The Chimera and Archon gang.
An interesting concept for the Thanatos but what would would we do for the Nyx then? Does it keep its damage bonus or are we going to mirror the bonus?
For the Nid.. which bonus would you swap out for the cap recharge rate bonus? As it stands I'd argue it could use a little more cap built into the hull and more fitting space and it would be golden as a solo Triage Carrier (I'd agrue it fills the role quite nicely already, just a few small tweaks here and there).
And you must realize Shield like Slave Implants will never happen because of the way shield mechanics work. If you add shield Implants you also indirectly boost your Shield Recharge per second as well allowing for better passive tanks. Do you really want that double boost from one set of implants? It sounds broken.. it is broken..
I do agree with the thought of Archon/Chimera being gang Logi and Thanny/Nid gang Logi. -Bl+¦d |
Gnadolin
Space Pioneers
23
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Posted - 2014.03.01 07:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
And no one here sees that the armor tanked ships need the slaves to keep up with shield caps, not to get ahead.
Compare the EHP with proper fits. The Wyvern exceeds a slaved Aeon by a lot. And even the Hel will win a 1on1 against a slaved Nyx due to passive shield recharge.
A Slave like set for shields is neither needed nor anywhere close to fair.
The Wyvern btw is the ship with the most EHP in game, having even more then the titans.
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Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
246
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Posted - 2014.03.01 07:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
BTW, the introduction of CA-3 and CA-4 genolutions has made the set very good indeed for shield caps/supercaps. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
22
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Posted - 2014.03.01 09:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:BTW, the introduction of CA-3 and CA-4 genolutions has made the set very good indeed for shield caps/supercaps. Quote: The Wyvern btw is the ship with the most EHP in game, having even more then the titans.
Nope, a proper Levi tanked gets more.
And significantly helps with the fitting issues. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
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