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Nate Gordo
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2014.02.26 13:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
I admire that CCP continue to re-balance the ships in EVE making this game continuously accessible for newer players. While a lot has recently been done to address entry into the cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships, I feel little is being done to help out some of the older players. Often seen as the pinnacle in this game is the transition into capital class ships be it carriers or dreadnoughts. The recent announcement that pirate ships are to be tweaked, leaves me still concerned, that capitals are far from thought. With the apparent increase in capital ship use, as seen with the recent battle in B-R5RB, and with what is seen on KB's there appears to be a distinct bias to particular races of ship, with Gallente (Nyx, Thanatos) and Amarrian (Aeon, Archon) being the clear favorites. Could this be because these are the armor tankers, in which case that should be addressed as the an issue with shields. Or is that the bonuses granted to the Minmatar (Hel and Nidhoggur) and (Chimera and Wyvern) are just not sufficient to make them real contenders, being non viable options and limiting the choice to players. Soon cap fleets will consist of ships of just two races, losing some of the premise of the game.
The situation reminds me of what is often seen in the commercial world where a company gives offers to new players (or people that sign up) while nothing is done to retain those who have chosen a certain progression. I understand that CCP and EVE is a commercial operation, but I still believe that more can be done to honor commitment to the game.
Please support the Balance of capitals so that all can be used equally! |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
252
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 13:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
You're seeing the Thanatos used? I thought it was Archons all the way down...
The use of the Nid is not due to a prejudice against shield tankers as it can be armour tanked - it's that when the Nid is tanked in shield it's very difficult to fit shield transfers to it, and when tanked in armour it is similarly difficult to load with Remote Armour Reps - it therefore rarely has an effective synergy with its fleetmates and is therefore not particularly valuable.
I don't know of anyone using chimera-centric shield doctrines but there was talk some time ago of adding additional pirate implant sets, in particular a Crystal "Slave" set which would boost Shield HP rather than rep and would therefore go some way towards countering the trend towards armour fleets.
I would debate your assertion that capitals are the the most significant milestone in the transition from newbie to veteran - let alone the pinnacle of that transition however. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1452
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 13:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Delusions of grandeur are hardly a basis for higher priority in balancing order. And class used by less than 1% of population is most definitely not even near the top of tiercide list. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3194
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 14:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9083
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Delusions of grandeur are hardly a basis for higher priority in balancing order. And class used by less than 1% of population is most definitely not even near the top of tiercide list. They may be used by a minority of the population but they have a considerably stronger effect on overall game balance than almost any of the ships they're looking at now, with the possible exceptions of HICs and logi (neither of which I expect to be changed much).
Capitals should not be last in the rebalancing effort. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
651
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.
timeline?
pirates summer when is summer exactly? will T2 ships be done before or after pirates? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1749
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals. timeline? pirates summer when is summer exactly? will T2 ships be done before or after pirates?
I am guessing at the min 18 months before caps are touched
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1453
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:They may be used by a minority of the population but they have a considerably stronger effect on overall game balance than almost any of the ships they're looking at now, with the possible exceptions of HICs and logi (neither of which I expect to be changed much).
Capitals should not be last in the rebalancing effort.
Let's not mistake pixel politics for game balance. And forgive me for saying that but caps are hardly ever necessary to field outside of sov matters. The fact that some people notoriously drop them everywhere doesn't exactly mean they are in dire need of taking higher place on tiercide waiting list. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9083
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 15:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sov is exactly why capital ships merit more immediate consideration. Even if it were true that it's the only stage where capitals are useful or necessary (it isn't). "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
1084
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nate Gordo wrote:Gallente (Nyx, Thanatos) and Amarrian (Aeon, Archon) being the clear favorites.
In what world is the Thanatos good? |
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unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
I always wonder if it has to do with Armour tank doctrine going in capital ship?
(I can't help but notice that there are no set implant that boost shield tank for capital ship, while there are one for armour. possible it play small role in armour tank doctrine?) |
Destoya
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
237
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 16:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:You're seeing the Thanatos used? I thought it was Archons all the way down...
The use of the Nid is not due to a prejudice against shield tankers as it can be armour tanked - it's that when the Nid is tanked in shield it's very difficult to fit shield transfers to it, and when tanked in armour it is similarly difficult to load with Remote Armour Reps - it therefore rarely has an effective synergy with its fleetmates and is therefore not particularly valuable.
I don't know of anyone using chimera-centric shield doctrines but there was talk some time ago of adding additional pirate implant sets, in particular a Crystal "Slave" set which would boost Shield HP rather than rep and would therefore go some way towards countering the trend towards armour fleets.
I would debate your assertion that capitals are the the most significant milestone in the transition from newbie to veteran - let alone the pinnacle of that transition however.
Nighoggur (and Thanatos) are not used because of fitting problems, but becuase of the massive HP/resist advantage that the archon provides. As an example, a standard t2 hardener/t1 trimark archon compared against a similarly fit nidhoggur has 44% more total ehp (with more of that in useable armor rather than wasted in shield), and 55% more resists, which makes the nidhoggur completely unusable. The thanatos is in pretty much the same place with the same slot layout and lack of resist bonus, but with a meager bump in armor EHP.
If supercarriers were as easy to replace as carriers, I can pretty much guarantee that you would see the extinction of Nyxes in favor of Aeons as well, at least in nullsec where the extra mid and DPS is largely irrelevant. There's a reason it's actually somewhat difficult to find aeons on the sell order forum.
The amarr (and caldari) capital advantage of a resist bonus AND an extra tank slot AND the most base HP in their respective tank compounds to make it very hard to justify flying the odd ships out, at least outside very specific use cases (thanatos gets the short end of the stick here since you cant even use it's extra bonus for anything useful anymore)
Regarding shield capital fleets, Darkness of Despair has built up a chimera/wyvern centric fleet. NC. and PL (as well as other allieances I'm sure) also maintain chimeras among at least part of their members in order to defend shield timers. The actual stats of the chimera/naglfar/wyvern/ragnorak are actually pretty impressive, especially when you consider that the ships dont get any help from slave-like implants, but while the major players still have hundreds of nearly entirely armor supercapitals, there is never going to be a big paradigm shift over to shield due to the inability to support these ships. |
Maggeridon Thoraz
Anomalous Existence
84
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 21:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
well i think very soon they will be balanced. currently have a toon training to carrier lvl 5 and shortly before done or just shortly after my skilling goal gets captured by ccp as it happend already 3 times to me. so in around 40 days from now... fly safe mates |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
37
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 21:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Nate Gordo wrote:Gallente (Nyx, Thanatos) and Amarrian (Aeon, Archon) being the clear favorites. In what world is the Thanatos good? The fighter damage bonus only applies to fighters, and fighters are... well there's a reason people use sentry drones instead. The Chimera has fitting issues as well as cap issues. The Nidhoggur has really good RR bonuses, but can't use them without excessive usage of fitting mods, or self-tanking what you aren't repping. The Archon does everything well and doesn't have any glaring issues. If you aren't flying an Archon, you're doing it wrong.
The rampant problem with Thanatos and Nid is cap and remote transfer range. The comedy of Archon wars in eve for this amount of time illustrates just how unbalanced it is - RR bonus pointless if you cant RR due to cap.
As for the Nid itself - give me a Dev that can justify the turd that it really is. Give a reason why fitting on an Archon is so easy compared to the Chimera, why there are no shield implants. Why the overbonus of resists per level.
Its so far out of whack with Caps that its the one statement you can say in eve without any argument. Train Archon. Forget the rest. |
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
366
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 02:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals. timeline? pirates summer when is summer exactly? will T2 ships be done before or after pirates?
Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
|
Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
494
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 03:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
SoonGäó |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9083
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 04:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:well i think very soon they will be balanced. currently have a toon training to carrier lvl 5 and shortly before done or just shortly after my skilling goal gets captured by ccp as it happend already 3 times to me. so in around 40 days from now... fly safe mates I also have a character which will complete Amarr Carrier V in just over two weeks. I still think they need to be rebalanced. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Oxide Ammar
77
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 08:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.
Oh god the list so long and we are going to complete second year in only balancing ships. we are still missing:
1- Black Ops 2- DST 3- Bombers 4- capitals (especially caldari line)
Can we have all these tackled in one expansion and be done with ship balancing ? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9083
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 08:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Oxide Ammar wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals. Oh god the list so long and we are going to complete second year in only balancing ships. we are still missing: 1- Black Ops 2- DST 3- Bombers 4- capitals (especially caldari line) Can we have all these tackled in one expansion and be done with ship balancing ? So you want them to rush through a bunch of changes that they can't possibly test as thoroughly as is necessary because you're under the mistaken impression that rebalancing will be over and done with after this iteration? "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
|
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1133
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 11:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Capitals are such a mess that I'd have them as higher priority than T3s. I think they'd be easier to balance than T3s too.
For carriers, the Thanatos is worthless and the Archon is the best choice for any armour situation. For dreads, the Phoenix is worthless unless you're doing mental stuff like dreadbowling or nanodreads, while the Revelation is simply obsolete. |
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Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
82
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 14:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:
The use of the Nid is not due to a prejudice against shield tankers as it can be armour tanked - it's that when the Nid is tanked in shield it's very difficult to fit shield transfers to it, and when tanked in armour it is similarly difficult to load with Remote Armour Reps - it therefore rarely has an effective synergy with its fleetmates and is therefore not particularly valuable.
I've been doing some testing on the test server and have found a shield tanked Nidhoggur and Remote Armor Repair works well if it is a solo Triage Carrier. The massive burst tank from shield tanking allows you to tank multiple Dreads for quite a while and at the same time you can support an armor subcap doctrine (I'm thinking Armor T3s will work well with it). Not a bad cap time either and solid buffer with Power Diagnostics in the lows (which doesn't sacrifice your shield boosting power).
All in all Nid is in a good Niche of POS repping and solo Triage I'd argue. As soon as you take it away from logi work on structures or bring 2 carriers instead of one.. the Archon instantly becomes superior. -Bl+¦d |
Serith Ellecon
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
29
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 14:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
As a wormhole cap pilot, these are the issues I've seen:
Thanny: Fitting- Fitted for armour tank and full triage armour reps, it's short on grid enough to need implants. Defenses- Too weak in comparison to an Archon. Hull bonus : Pretty much useless as fighters suck. No energy transfer range bonus, so of limited use in a fleet.
Archon: No real downsides to this one other than it is boring to look at. However, nerfing it significantly will hurt in wormholes. Archons being the only armour carrier capable of standing up to 3 full waves of escalation sleeper battleships for long enough to run sites.
Chimera: Used similarly to the Archon in shield bonused wormholes, but extremely tight on CPU, and like the thanny, needs implants to work right.
Nidhoggur: Slot layout: Terrible. Not enough mids to run a good shield tank. Fitting: Not enough of anything Capacitor: Runs out about 30 picoseconds after you get in the thing. (may be a slight exaggeration, but not by much) Hull bonus: Pointless as it will run out of cap if you use any of your lows/mids for any kind of a tank worthy of the name. No energy transfer range bonus, so of limited use in a fleet. (Plus - did I mention capacitor issues?)
In short, the Archon is pretty much the perfect carrier for anything you'd want an armour carrier for, except repping a large POS shield. Every other carrier is second rate by comparison, and the poor niddy didn't even make it to be rated because it ran out of cap on the way and couldn't make the last jump.
Yes, something needs to be done to lower the Archon infestation of Nullsec, but not at the expense of the other uses. Could I suggest the re-balance be centred around the triage module? If that were made more effective, then a significant change to the base carrier stats could be made without hurting the wormholers. Inappropriate signature added.-á CCP Notarealdev. |
Lina Theist
Rosendal Research and Development
55
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 06:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Serith Ellecon wrote:As a wormhole cap pilot, these are the issues I've seen: [...] Archon: No real downsides to this one other than it is boring to look at. However, nerfing it significantly will hurt in wormholes. Archons being the only armour carrier capable of standing up to 3 full waves of escalation sleeper battleships for long enough to run sites. [...] Yes, something needs to be done to lower the Archon infestation of Nullsec, but not at the expense of the other uses. Could I suggest the re-balance be centred around the triage module? If that were made more effective, then a significant change to the base carrier stats could be made without hurting the wormholers.
As a wormholer myself, I say adapt. If you don't want to nerf the archon because it'll impact on our isk/h then you are the wrong kind of wormholer imho. While I myself don't know whether I think all carriers should be nerfed to different extents or just the archon (chimera as well), I know for certain that the archon needs to be brought in line with the others. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
37
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 10:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lina Theist wrote: ...
As a wormholer myself, I say adapt. If you don't want to nerf the archon because it'll impact on our isk/h then you are the wrong kind of wormholer imho. While I myself don't know whether I think all carriers should be nerfed to different extents or just the archon (chimera as well), I know for certain that the archon needs to be brought in line with the others.
So - make the archon impossible to fit, have half the tank, make it impossible to fit armour reppers while having a local armour tank. Get rid of its cap range bonus .. should bring it inline.
... let imagine thats not how it will happen.
Chimera - more CPU should fix it. Thanatos - local rep bonus should be good. Archon - lets leave it alone more or less. Nid - give it an insane cap recharge rate bonus. Fix the fitting issues, fix the flipped tank fitting issues.
Add implants for shield akin to slaves, or remove slaves from caps - it unbalances all tiers.
Basically would make the Thanatos and Nid more 'solo' logistic. The Chimera and Archon gang. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
126
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
Question for CCP Ytterbium:
Will there be a need to 'rebalance' the range of four Freighters during the capital ship rebalancing ??
Personally I don't feel there is a need to do anything to them even with the recent changes to warp speed.
If the Freighters were 'rebalanced' would they be touched by the ugly stick..... ahem.....I meant will their BPO's suffer the indignity of needing 'extra materials' ??
Thank you in advance for any thoughts you may have regarding this issue. |
bundy bear
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.28 18:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.
No mention of the rorqual, the only ship in the game that you have to sit in a POS bubble to use. |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
84
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 04:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rab See wrote:
Thanatos - local rep bonus should be good.
Nid - give it an insane cap recharge rate bonus. Fix the fitting issues, fix the flipped tank fitting issues.
Add implants for shield akin to slaves, or remove slaves from caps - it unbalances all tiers.
Basically would make the Thanatos and Nid more 'solo' logistic. The Chimera and Archon gang.
An interesting concept for the Thanatos but what would would we do for the Nyx then? Does it keep its damage bonus or are we going to mirror the bonus?
For the Nid.. which bonus would you swap out for the cap recharge rate bonus? As it stands I'd argue it could use a little more cap built into the hull and more fitting space and it would be golden as a solo Triage Carrier (I'd agrue it fills the role quite nicely already, just a few small tweaks here and there).
And you must realize Shield like Slave Implants will never happen because of the way shield mechanics work. If you add shield Implants you also indirectly boost your Shield Recharge per second as well allowing for better passive tanks. Do you really want that double boost from one set of implants? It sounds broken.. it is broken..
I do agree with the thought of Archon/Chimera being gang Logi and Thanny/Nid gang Logi. -Bl+¦d |
Gnadolin
Space Pioneers
23
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 07:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
And no one here sees that the armor tanked ships need the slaves to keep up with shield caps, not to get ahead.
Compare the EHP with proper fits. The Wyvern exceeds a slaved Aeon by a lot. And even the Hel will win a 1on1 against a slaved Nyx due to passive shield recharge.
A Slave like set for shields is neither needed nor anywhere close to fair.
The Wyvern btw is the ship with the most EHP in game, having even more then the titans.
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Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
246
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 07:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
BTW, the introduction of CA-3 and CA-4 genolutions has made the set very good indeed for shield caps/supercaps. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
22
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 09:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:BTW, the introduction of CA-3 and CA-4 genolutions has made the set very good indeed for shield caps/supercaps. Quote: The Wyvern btw is the ship with the most EHP in game, having even more then the titans.
Nope, a proper Levi tanked gets more.
And significantly helps with the fitting issues. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
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Gnadolin
Space Pioneers
23
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Posted - 2014.03.01 09:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Edited numbers into the above post to point out that shield supers are superior even without slaves. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
181
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 17:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Some remarks:
- A slaved armor cap has less hp than an equally expensive shield cap. - Genolutions are a shield caps best friend. With them, the Chimera is a better triage and a better slowcat than the Archon. - The Nighoddur flip tank + genos works in solo triage situations that do not escalate which is way to rare. - The Thanatos would be balanced the instant fighters would be used again. Fighters need fixing, not the Thanatos. - Once you scale up tot dozens upon dozens of carriers, the Archon does the pantheon thing better than the Chimera due to cap use - There is a huge amount of inertia in cap warfare due to experience of pilots and their skills. Same reason why Jita is the trade capital of New Eden: inertia. - The Archons biggest advantage is that it can do each and every role well with just the basic T2 fit. It is also the only carrier that can scale from small engagements up to the largest with a simple refitting of T2 modules a.k.a no-one ever got fired for bringing an Archon. |
firepup82
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 23:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ehh probably because slaves effect caps and there is no shield variant crystals do not effect capitals that is why most supers are armor |
firepup82
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 23:34:00 -
[34] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:Some remarks:
- A slaved armor cap has less hp than an equally expensive shield cap. - Genolutions are a shield caps best friend. With them, the Chimera is a better triage and a better slowcat than the Archon. - The Nighoddur flip tank + genos works in solo triage situations that do not escalate which is way to rare. - The Thanatos would be balanced the instant fighters would be used again. Fighters need fixing, not the Thanatos. - Once you scale up tot dozens upon dozens of carriers, the Archon does the pantheon thing better than the Chimera due to cap use - There is a huge amount of inertia in cap warfare due to experience of pilots and their skills. Same reason why Jita is the trade capital of New Eden: inertia. - The Archons biggest advantage is that it can do each and every role well with just the basic T2 fit. It is also the only carrier that can scale from small engagements up to the largest with a simple refitting of T2 modules a.k.a no-one ever got fired for bringing an Archon.
Didn't realize passive shield regent of a few hundred can add 5+ million ehp in supers good to know |
firepup82
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 23:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
Overheat in aeon can get 166 mil ehp shields can't come close to that |
Gnadolin
Space Pioneers
23
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 07:41:00 -
[36] - Quote
Pic or gtfo.
And if you consider actually reading, above is pointed out that armor caps need the slaves to keep up with shield ones. And dont get ahead of them. Without slaves no one would even consider armor caps. And even with slaves they are inferior to shield caps. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
37
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 11:33:00 -
[37] - Quote
Gnadolin wrote:Pic or gtfo.
And if you consider actually reading, above is pointed out that armor caps need the slaves to keep up with shield ones. And dont get ahead of them. Without slaves no one would even consider armor caps. And even with slaves they are inferior to shield caps.
Just to correct you, armour supers need the slaves. Sadly shield supers need the reppers. The lack of 'fixes' to carriers has resulted in an unassailable armour meta. Shield supers may have a minor ehp advantage, but just name your Super 'primary' if its shield tanked.
The imbalance at the start of your capital career means you never get to the point of choosing a path, its dictated by the 'unfixed' armour meta.
Going back then. Carriers.
They provide reps and cap. Sadly, the Nid and Than dont. They cant cap transfer to range, cant tank properly because of this. All but the Archon have fitting issues, and Slaves exacerbate the issue ... Genolutions help the Chimera no doubt, but the other two are just crap. |
Nimrod vanHall
Martyr's Vengence Nulli Secunda
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 11:43:00 -
[38] - Quote
firepup82 wrote:Ehh probably because slaves effect caps and there is no shield variant crystals do not effect capitals that is why most supers are armor
Most Supers are armor because most alliances fly armor, caps, its kind a kind of self sustaining thingy.
The reason caps are supers started to be armor is that along long time ago at teh start of the Super Era,is that: Links and other skills that increased armor were applied immeadiatle to both maximum armor HP and current armor HP while shield skills and links only applied to the maximum.
the effect was that an armor cap jumping in a system was immediately at max health while a shield cap, needed to be repped or needed its passiev shield recharge to get to maximum shields first . |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
37
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 13:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Rab See wrote:
Thanatos - local rep bonus should be good.
Nid - give it an insane cap recharge rate bonus. Fix the fitting issues, fix the flipped tank fitting issues.
Add implants for shield akin to slaves, or remove slaves from caps - it unbalances all tiers.
Basically would make the Thanatos and Nid more 'solo' logistic. The Chimera and Archon gang.
An interesting concept for the Thanatos but what would would we do for the Nyx then? Does it keep its damage bonus or are we going to mirror the bonus? For the Nid.. which bonus would you swap out for the cap recharge rate bonus? As it stands I'd argue it could use a little more cap built into the hull and more fitting space and it would be golden as a solo Triage Carrier (I'd agrue it fills the role quite nicely already, just a few small tweaks here and there). And you must realize Shield like Slave Implants will never happen because of the way shield mechanics work. If you add shield Implants you also indirectly boost your Shield Recharge per second as well allowing for better passive tanks. Do you really want that double boost from one set of implants? It sounds broken.. it is broken.. I do agree with the thought of Archon/Chimera being gang Logi and Thanny/Nid solo Logi.
Ok - I would trade - and I mean this sincerely, the drone per level bonus on the Nid. Something needs to be sorted in the context of its turd status. Fitting is a joke as is its capacitor. Hell, lets make it a cap use by reppers bonus and dump the drone bonus.
On the supers mirror bonus, what use are the repping bonuses of the Thanatos and Nid when it comes down to cap transfers and range, and we all know how crap Supers are for that role. The only real use in Supers is cap transfer for capping up where range is key in gangs. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
567
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 17:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
Beat me to it. But yeah. It's gonna be a while unfortunately.
As James Amril-Kesh put it, we still have a ways to go. Recons, HICs, Logi, and Blops to rebalance for T2, all T3s (nerf them), and pirates yet remain for subcaps. Pirate frigs are announced if you haven't seen it yet. But I don't see why CCP couldn't hit caps at the same time as a lesser project like Logi and HICs. I agree that those two categories are generally well-balanced and shouldn't require a lot of effort. Free Ripley Weaver! |
|
IbanezLaney
the church of awesome Caldari State Capturing
983
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 02:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment.
Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere.
Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees.....................
School ...... You should have attended.
If you want to get your soul to heaven, trust in me. Now don't judge or question. You are broken now, but faith can heal you. Just do everything I tell you to do. (Opiate - Tool) |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 02:51:00 -
[42] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment.
Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere. Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees..................... School ...... You should have attended.
First of all kiss my ass
second of all I know summer extends until September.
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2051
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 02:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment.
Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere. Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees..................... School ...... You should have attended.
Summer in terms of this discussion and CCP would be when it is Summer for CCP. It is typically called context. Also something learned in school. Nice try though. |
Hagika
Hipsters In Space
208
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 17:49:00 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.
How about the phoenix? Seriously is it some sick joke that torps,capital missile systems and the phoenix just sucks compared to the rest.
Even the Nag got a huge buff and just put the other 3 Dreads have a huge gap over the caldari version. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
520
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 01:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.
There are no ships left to tackle in the Tech 1 category?
WTF????!?!?!?!!111!1 |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14240
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 10:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
Which T1 sub caps haven't had a tiercide balance pass ?
1 Kings 12:11
|
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
520
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
Orca, Freighters.
Freighters may count as capitals, in your book, but Orca sure doesn't in mine. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
520
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 21:41:00 -
[48] - Quote
For that matter, the Noctis hasn't had any tiercide changes either. And that most definitely is not a capital ship.
But I can understand it if CCP want to wait at least 2-4 months before making any changes to the Noctis, so they can observe the effects of salvage drones, mobile tractor units and so forth.
Orca and Freighters, though. They've been like they are for a looong time. They need to get looked at, by open-minded game designers. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
873
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 22:06:00 -
[49] - Quote
Be careful what you wish for...
Very careful at that. |
Icylce
The Chosen 0nes DARKNESS.
18
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:55:00 -
[50] - Quote
Rab See wrote:
Ok - I would trade - and I mean this sincerely, the drone per level bonus on the Nid. Something needs to be sorted in the context of its turd status. Fitting is a joke as is its capacitor. Hell, lets make it a cap use by reppers bonus and dump the drone bonus.
On the supers mirror bonus, what use are the repping bonuses of the Thanatos and Nid when it comes down to cap transfers and range, and we all know how crap Supers are for that role. The only real use in Supers is cap transfer for capping up where range is key in gangs.
Drone per level bonus is not nids bonus, it is general carrier bonus. Doing smt like that would be out of whack imho. |
|
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University Ivy League
406
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:51:00 -
[51] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Markku Laaksonen wrote:Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment. Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere. Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees..................... School ...... You should have attended. Summer in terms of this discussion and CCP would be when it is Summer for CCP. It is typically called context. Also something learned in school. Nice try though.
This was said much nicer than I would have. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
|
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 13:06:00 -
[52] - Quote
Icylce wrote:Rab See wrote:
Ok - I would trade - and I mean this sincerely, the drone per level bonus on the Nid. Something needs to be sorted in the context of its turd status. Fitting is a joke as is its capacitor. Hell, lets make it a cap use by reppers bonus and dump the drone bonus.
On the supers mirror bonus, what use are the repping bonuses of the Thanatos and Nid when it comes down to cap transfers and range, and we all know how crap Supers are for that role. The only real use in Supers is cap transfer for capping up where range is key in gangs.
Drone per level bonus is not nids bonus, it is general carrier bonus. Doing smt like that would be out of whack imho.
I think its evident that the Nid is totally broken. There is no rational use for it except in the most odd of edge cases. The bit about losing the most basic carrier bonus reinforces the point about how duff it is. My corpies who fly carriers wouldnt touch it ever. Its archon this/that etc, maybe Thanny for POS work, deffo Chimera for WH work when its bonused.
The Nid and Thanny suffer though, cap and range of cap make them gang useless ... pretty much everything is wrong with the Nid, the Thanny needs a bit more (but not stepping on the Nyx) and the Chimera ... fitting. Dont dump on the Archon though, the whines would make my dog howl. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
45
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 14:02:00 -
[53] - Quote
I have finally worked out how to get the Nid to work.
Fly them in twos.
One Shield Rep, Armour tanked. One Armour Rep, Shield tanked.
Of course, it all makes sense, get me another account waiter, I need to train it up for a useless Carrier.
But watch out when one gets primaried ... as its has no cap and has no range. Just don't get bumped apart.
Voila - the new Niddy bonus ... to tractors. Can tractor its 'paired repper' back to it, bonuses to range and velocity, I see the new lowsec Noctis coming for its next niche role. |
Nimrod vanHall
Martyr's Vengence Nulli Secunda
73
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 08:24:00 -
[54] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Markku Laaksonen wrote:
Summer is typically understood to be the period between sometime in May until sometime in August. Use your best judgment.
Your summer is typically understood to be Winter in the opposite hemisphere. Who knew there was stuff outside McMerica and that the Earth spins on an axis of 23.4 degrees..................... School ...... You should have attended.
technically summer is between june 21'th and september 20'th in the northern hemisphere and between december 21'th and march 20'th on the southern hemisphere |
RcTamiya Leontis
Satan's Unicorns
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 12:20:00 -
[55] - Quote
Yes nid needs some love, is it totaly useless ? definetly not, if you spend some money on its fit, as you should for wspace, it becomes a very decent dou or solo triage which can be used for repping armor fleet while assisting shielddreads which fall out of siege ( cuz nag (and pheonix, yes it does work, no i wont share fit, yes it outperforms other blapdreads)>>>>>>>>others in wspace pvp, FACT), an archon CAN'T do that, also i lost count on my nidhis combats until it finally died to a mistake of my FC, not of the ship itself, it reaches equal or better cap recharge than an archon, however if you spend the same amount of isk to an archon you get more sustained dps tank out of it, my record was tanking 4 dreads ( 3 mori 1 nag) with my nidhi for 1 hour, but ye archon feels a lot easier to handle in that pressure. My experience most likely is that nidhi felt easier vs subcap fleets ( 1 rep was enough when the archon did need 2, can be important if hostiles switch targets frequently) and archon felt easier while under fire from dreads, however i wouldn't raise the cap trans argument here, capgaurdians to feed cap into flet & neuting ships should be the ships of choice (2-3 capguardians can feed cap to 4-6 bhaalgorns), not a carrier who's job it is to kep your fleet alive. |
afkboss
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 13:01:00 -
[56] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:We're getting there.
During the Tiericide project, we first wanted to go through the most common classes first, by starting with Tech 1 and Tech 2, then moving into more advanced hulls.
There are some ships left to tackle on the Tech 2 category that need love. When done with that and pirate ships, our next step is to start looking at Tech 3 ships, then capitals.
While your doing tech II ships can you please give the sacrilege an extra low slot. Whats the point of a resists bonus when it has 2 less low slots than the zealot .... |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
46
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 13:48:00 -
[57] - Quote
RcTamiya Leontis wrote:Yes nid needs some love, is it totaly useless ? definetly not, if you spend some money on its fit, as you should for wspace, it becomes a very decent dou or solo triage which can be used for repping armor fleet while assisting shielddreads which fall out of siege ( cuz nag (and pheonix, yes it does work, no i wont share fit, yes it outperforms other blapdreads)>>>>>>>>others in wspace pvp, FACT), an archon CAN'T do that, also i lost count on my nidhis combats until it finally died to a mistake of my FC, not of the ship itself, it reaches equal or better cap recharge than an archon, however if you spend the same amount of isk to an archon you get more sustained dps tank out of it, my record was tanking 4 dreads ( 3 mori 1 nag) with my nidhi for 1 hour, but ye archon feels a lot easier to handle in that pressure. My experience most likely is that nidhi felt easier vs subcap fleets ( 1 rep was enough when the archon did need 2, can be important if hostiles switch targets frequently) and archon felt easier while under fire from dreads, however i wouldn't raise the cap trans argument here, capgaurdians to feed cap into flet & neuting ships should be the ships of choice (2-3 capguardians can feed cap to 4-6 bhaalgorns), not a carrier who's job it is to kep your fleet alive.
Well - its saying something if it takes extras (faction/deadspace ...) and a WH of matching needs to make the Nid something. Sadly 99% of the time, its not WH space ... so its just crap, and saying that an archon does more in either context .. is saying nothing.
The Rep range and Cap range bonus on the two 'double bonused' hulls of the Archon and Chimera are what makes the imbalance. I will say it again .. if a capacitor/repping WH is necessary with some bling to make the Nid and Thanatos work, then we can see to some degree, how to fix them.
Other than the usual issues, working in gangs is what a carrier is for, and being the solo carrier is the Archons niche as it can recap you bhal instantly while repping it. That range makes it unassailable. Try getting a Nid to do that under cap pressure. It dies fast - its primaried for that reason.
Meh, we aren't going to change it by arguing, but I will be interested to see how the fix happens for it. |
RcTamiya Leontis
Satan's Unicorns
6
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 14:16:00 -
[58] - Quote
Nidhi and archo nreach almost equal cap recharge levels, the difference is ~ the strenght of 1 heavy neut, it depends on your fit, however a 10k dps tanked nidhi (shield) has ~ 900 cap recharge/sec and costs ~ 2.6bil isk (including rigs & ship) A 10k dps tanked archon is t2 fit and has 740 cap recharge/sec
The problem here is if you change 1 slot in this layout you are at ~ 15k dps tank with only 700 cap recharge/sec which is slighty less than archon with better burst tank.
The nidhi works better vs subcapital only fleets The Archon works better vs dreads
Things which can affect this by a lot : Numbers.
A nidhi can still handle 2 bhaals and tank/rep an entire t3 fleet ~ 20 ppl strong An archon can do that too
An archon CAN'T support shielddreads as a nidhi can, a nidhi can support them perfectly
Now lets see whats beeing used in 00 & LS -> Armor Blapdreads The advantages of archon overwhelm the nidhi there, easy, but on the other hand in wspace, where things keep "small scaled" (related to 00 fleets), the nidhi will and does outpeform the archon in small scale if your fleet is setup around your carrier, which will then end in great effictiveness, of course its easier to pick archon and go all armor, is it more effective ? depends I'd say if you go for shielddreads, definetly not, we all talked about the uses of a nidhi, i told you the nidhi isn't that bad including examples etc Just keep in mind, if a ship is useless in kspace it doesn't mean its not good somewehre else, in thsi case its good in wspace, nidhipantheon with all those midslots is something you shouldn't underestaminate in wspace ;)
So why setup a fleet around the carrier instead of just gabbin an archon ? Because you can then pick ships you can't otherwise (shielddreads, in cases of emergencies (can happen, shouldn't happen) even a shieldhic, etc) You can use the same carrier to work either in pulsar or non-effect wormholes, archon in pulsar is ... meh Vs heavy neuting the 200 cap/sec advantage is equall to at least 2 additional hostile neutlegions, this can make a change of death or surrive, however the basecap of an arhcon is bigger allowing to stay on grid longer if hostile neuting is equal to caprecharge in case of using heavy cap booster to get ur cap back up when under VERY heavy neuts , 6 mids outperform 4 mids |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
137
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 15:45:00 -
[59] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:well i think very soon they will be balanced. currently have a toon training to carrier lvl 5 and shortly before done or just shortly after my skilling goal gets captured by ccp as it happend already 3 times to me. so in around 40 days from now... fly safe mates I also have a character which will complete Amarr Carrier V in just over two weeks. I still think they need to be rebalanced.
They will be rebalanced and like other classes of ship (sabre et. al.) they will be rebalanced around the most commonly used class while still remaining unique. So the Archon will be the standard that all others are measured by.
what does this mean?
Summary:
Chimera, Thanatos and Nidhoggur Fittings issues will be addressed as well as capacitor issues. Chimera being the most energy intensive will likely appear to get the most help.
Questions remain as to a refocusing of Thanatos to armor...or keeping shield flexibility and ditto for Nidhoggur. I honestly like the flexibility of the Thanatos/Nidhoggur. It may not be perfect for null-sec fleets but with the rumors of some carrier nerf's incoming, the Thanny and niddy might get some advantages due to slot layout if nothing else.
*rumored nerfs/rebalances* * carriers reduced to 5 fighters/drones like everyone else by default and forced to choose between drone/fighter dps for fit or repair power rather than being able to do all at once with very little downside. This reduces the scaling issue of carrier blobs somewhat.
I wouldn't be surprised if capital rep power was reduced outside of triage. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
46
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 16:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
RcTamiya Leontis wrote:Nidhi and archo nreach almost equal cap recharge levels, the difference is ~ the strenght of 1 heavy neut, it depends on your fit, however a 10k dps tanked nidhi (shield) has ~ 900 cap recharge/sec and costs ~ 2.6bil isk (including rigs & ship) A 10k dps tanked archon is t2 fit and has 740 cap recharge/sec
The problem here is if you change 1 slot in this layout you are at ~ 15k dps tank with only 700 cap recharge/sec which is slighty less than archon with better burst tank.
The nidhi works better vs subcapital only fleets The Archon works better vs dreads
Things which can affect this by a lot : Numbers.
A nidhi can still handle 2 bhaals and tank/rep an entire t3 fleet ~ 20 ppl strong An archon can do that too
An archon CAN'T support shielddreads as a nidhi can, a nidhi can support them perfectly
Now lets see whats beeing used in 00 & LS -> Armor Blapdreads The advantages of archon overwhelm the nidhi there, easy, but on the other hand in wspace, where things keep "small scaled" (related to 00 fleets), the nidhi will and does outpeform the archon in small scale if your fleet is setup around your carrier, which will then end in great effictiveness, of course its easier to pick archon and go all armor, is it more effective ? depends I'd say if you go for shielddreads, definetly not, we all talked about the uses of a nidhi, i told you the nidhi isn't that bad including examples etc Just keep in mind, if a ship is useless in kspace it doesn't mean its not good somewehre else, in thsi case its good in wspace, nidhipantheon with all those midslots is something you shouldn't underestaminate in wspace ;)
So why setup a fleet around the carrier instead of just gabbin an archon ? Because you can then pick ships you can't otherwise (shielddreads, in cases of emergencies (can happen, shouldn't happen) even a shieldhic, etc) You can use the same carrier to work either in pulsar or non-effect wormholes, archon in pulsar is ... meh Vs heavy neuting the 200 cap/sec advantage is equall to at least 2 additional hostile neutlegions, this can make a change of death or surrive, however the basecap of an arhcon is bigger allowing to stay on grid longer if hostile neuting is equal to caprecharge in case of using heavy cap booster to get ur cap back up when under VERY heavy neuts , 6 mids outperform 4 mids
The problem here is simple.
Comparing apples with oranges ... Archon is better everywhere. Tank, repping, capping up, survival. With respect to all capital ops, what is the main use ... capping up, and range is key here. In triage, you rely on local reps and tank ... in pantheon you rely on tank and remote cap and reps, cap range again, resists on Archon and Chimera win outright.
You can pull out the edge cases of where its good. POS reps, suicide reps, shield reps .. well duh! Its better there, but tell me of any of the Nag or Pheonix pilots who need shield reps when cap will help their tanks more out of siege. Burn your cap in siege, then cap up out of it.
And delving into WHs. please link fits. a 2.5b fit ship needed to make it better than a 1.2b ship. No, thats not balanced, and please link me the 6 heavy cap booster fit you've got ... it has to be blingorama to cover fitting issues.
Anyone with sense in a WH chooses a doctrine. Choose armour, choose Archon, makes sense. In a shield WH, choose shield choose Chimera, makes more sense.
Whay can you fit an archon T2 with no trouble whatsoever, you can use CPRs with no issues, and then with a Nid (and the others) its a game of 'how can I squeeze it in'. Painfully, I love the Archon, but want to love them all in their own ways. Chimera should be easy to fit like the Archon, Thanny ... make it more than a Nyx in waiting, and Nid ... its time might come - it shouldn't be resigned to odd WH work or POS reps. |
|
Catherine Laartii
Knights of Xibalba
115
|
Posted - 2014.03.25 23:15:00 -
[61] - Quote
I think the probably really lies more with the capital-sized modules, specifically the mechanics involved with siege mode and RR. I would propose that capital module stats for reps, either local or remote, and guns get buffed significantly and have siege and triage bonuses to module effectiveness be rolled into the module proper to allow more effective fleet logistics formations.
Part of the reason subcap fleet mechanics are in a better place balance-wise is because the philosophy for fielding them and how logistics works in general at that scale IS in fact balanced very well with how cap is transferred and how formations are set up to rep. Following a similar gameplay mechanic then scaling it up would be, in my limited and humble opinion, a way to help balance capitals better. Buffing the tracking speed on fighters would be ideal as well; having them be able to hit battlecruisers and some slower cruisers would be excellent since it would expand their usefulness.
A good place to start would be with a fighter balance. Buff the tracking up a bit, but reduce the hp and mineral costs slightly. Bringing down that, plus adding t2 and faction fighters would help signficantly; making them around 5 mil a pop for t1 and current prices for t2 or higher would be ideal for expanding the market and helping the carriers themselves out a bit.
Also, a good way to balance bonuses to them would be the Thanatos getting a RR amount bonus to armor, the Nid getting RR bonus to shields to be better in line with racial rates, and each getting local active tanking bonuses. The Chimera and Archon would get transfer range bonuses for both getting cap, the chimera getting shields and the archon getting armor range. You'd have balanced gameplay options assuming the nid would get balanced more towards midslots, preferably the lows and mids flipped around.
This would follow the current subcap logi line with racial bonuses, especially in regards to caldari and amarr being generally fleet-focused in regards to logistics. I would be in favor of keeing triage if it got a big nerf to sensors so it would be used more towards healing structures and ships that survive after a fight, rather than during the fight. Upping the cap/fuel usage and nerfing scan res and sensor strength after doing a good buff to cap reps in general would be appropriate I think. You'd have the gal and min carriers be better suited towards that; giving the hel a tracking bonus might all kinds of awesome too.
Aside from carriers, dropping the damage part on siege module might be an ideal way to buff capitals after rolling the damage into the guns themselves, but to also rolling something like a tracking bonus in there would be great. It would be most ideal to be able to have them use their guns out of siege to they don't drop like flies during a large engagement since they can't receive reps while sieged.
Generally the intention would be to carry over combat mechanics that work subcap and scale them up. Only downside I could see would be big fights lasting a bit longer if everyone knows what they're doing, but that's more the fault of everyone piling into the same node than anything wrong with the capital fight mechanics themselves. |
Kelgan O'Sullivan
Grey Templars Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.27 07:18:00 -
[62] - Quote
Use the Archon as the carrier standard and buff the rest to its level.
Buff the Revs damage to the point its actually as useful as a moros/nag.
Unfuck the Formula for citadel weapons systems and make the missiles travel faster to all pheonixes to even be somewhat useful. Make citadel torps good to about 50km and cruises for the 51-150km range. Buff damage to about 14k dps with any damage type. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1148
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 10:57:00 -
[63] - Quote
Kelgan O'Sullivan wrote:Buff the Revs damage to the point its actually as useful as a moros/nag.
I don't think that'll work, at least not by itself. Part of the problem is that Nag/Moros/Rev range is already quite homogeneous, so homogenising their DPS also doesn't sound great. The Rev should have a useful range advantage over the other two, but the Moros and Nag, with close-range turrets, already have plenty of range. So giving the Rev more range alone won't be enough, the Moros and Nag will have to lose optimal and/or falloff. |
chris elliot
Yoyodyne corporation Shadow Cartel
336
|
Posted - 2014.03.28 16:19:00 -
[64] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Nate Gordo wrote:Gallente (Nyx, Thanatos) and Amarrian (Aeon, Archon) being the clear favorites. In what world is the Thanatos good? The fighter damage bonus only applies to fighters, and fighters are... well there's a reason people use sentry drones instead. The Chimera has fitting issues as well as cap issues. The Nidhoggur has really good RR bonuses, but can't use them without excessive usage of fitting mods, or self-tanking what you aren't repping. The Archon does everything well and doesn't have any glaring issues. If you aren't flying an Archon, you're doing it wrong.
Thanatos is the kingjewmobile for those that know what they are doing. The archon in comparison is just 'meh' at it. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Mordus Angels
875
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 22:23:00 -
[65] - Quote
Kelgan O'Sullivan wrote:Use the Archon as the carrier standard and buff the rest to its level.
.
Everytime they do that the ship that "was the bar" turns into a turd. |
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
177
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 11:30:00 -
[66] - Quote
While they're at it they should get rid of the drone control units and merge it with the skill in question.
I mean who in their right mind fits any carrier with 5x drone control modules, let alone trains for 30days for that ?
|
RcTamiya Leontis
Satan's Unicorns
13
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 07:21:00 -
[67] - Quote
Baneken wrote:While they're at it they should get rid of the drone control units and merge it with the skill in question.
I mean who in their right mind fits any carrier with 5x drone control modules, let alone trains for 30days for that ?
I am too lazy now, but check some 00 bear carriers who decided to end up in a light show after beeing caught in their sites :P |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14935
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Posted - 2014.04.01 12:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Delusions of grandeur are hardly a basis for higher priority in balancing order. And class used by less than 1% of population is most definitely not even near the top of tiercide list.
You're thinking of supercaps. Capitals are far more popular than that.
1 Kings 12:11
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