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ferox ....active shield tank or passive

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Grendel Marqun Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.04 22:38:00 - [31] Ignore the twit saying "don't use rails". Ferox may not have a dps bonus, but 10% range means amat surprise for quite a ways. With BC 4 and 250s, my effective engagement range with amat is ~35 km. And while missiles might be reliable damage, good gunnery will get you at least the same dps, and the potential for 350ish wrecking hits. With a railrox, I usually run a (somewhat) active tank. 2 LSE2, an invuln2, and a med booster2 in mids, with a web to round it out. Lows are pdcs to fit the gear, then magstabs. Highs are 5 250s and a pair of assaults. If you're missioning with it, most missions you can lose the booster and add a targeting comp to make those rails extra mean. Of course, that's back to being passive again :P Since a railship needs cap, putting sprs on hurts your effectiveness. So, might as well kit for decent cap and shield regen, and have a booster to help your shielding out. With good cap skills and a couple of pdcs, you can get enough cap to run your invuln and booster forever, or your invuln, your rails, and about a 50% duty cycle on the booster. Make it 4 pdcs, and you'll be running the rails forever as well, but your dps will suffer.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.05 05:00:00 - [32] Originally by: Eiye This set up does wonders for me: 4 x Heavy missiles T2 3 x 250mm Rails T2 2 x Mag Scattering T2 1 x Large Shield Booster T2 1 x Invulnerability T2 1 x Cap Recharger T2 4 x Capacitor Power Relay T1 Caps stabalise at about 40% with every thing running, will need more than 2 Heavy Nosferatu to drain cap below 50% whilst running shield booster. And How much does your SB give you with 4 CPRs fitted? Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.05 05:01:00 - [33] Originally by: Waenn Ironstaff Most of these setups concern though Missile based Ferox. What if I wanted to use rails instead? Go passive or active? You have to go active. Passive you'd run out of cap from firing the rails and then you've be screwed due to abyssmal cap recharge. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.05 05:29:00 - [34] Originally by: Waenn Ironstaff Most of these setups concern though Missile based Ferox. What if I wanted to use rails instead? Go passive or active? No tank really needed. Use T2 250mm rails and snipe from around 150km away. Carry assault launchers and 5x warrior drones for anti frigate defense if you get stupid with your snipeing locations or get overly brave. Mind you the above takes alot of training to make it happen. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Pottsey's Clone	Posted - 2006.09.05 06:04:00 - [35] ôYou have to go active. Passive you'd run out of cap from firing the rails and then you've be screwed due to abyssmal cap recharge.ö Passive tanks can have just as good cap recharge as active tanks so turrets are not a problem. All you do is use 1 or 2 PDS modules. I used to use 6 blasters on my domi passive tank without cap problems. So I dont see why a Ferox would have problems.
Shadarle	Posted - 2006.09.05 09:27:00 - [36] "Passive tanks can have just as good cap recharge as active tanks so turrets are not a problem. All you do is use 1 or 2 PDS modules. I used to use 6 blasters on my domi passive tank without cap problems. So I dont see why a Ferox would have problems." Your tank suffers a fair bit to do this. So sure, you can use rails... but you're losing out on the tank part of your ship. If you wanna use rails that bad, fine... but realize the tradeoff you're making. I see a lot of back and forth in this thread. Stop the name calling, crunch the numbers. Or better yet, check out my sig where I already crunched the numbers. You can compare a whole bunch of setups for a ferox/raven/cerberus to each other and see exactly how much damage they can all take before braking. Basically a passive ferox with missiles is the simplest setup to use with a great tank. Active ferox may tank slightly better, when using missiles, but it requires active control so a crash/etc could screw you. But please, for the love of god, stay away from shield extenders on the same setup as a shield booster. If you use a shield booster there shouldn't be a single passive tanking item on your ship (Shield extender, SPR, etc). Shield boost amps are decent, but they arn't god's gift to active shield tanking. 4 passive resist mods or 4 active resist mods are generally better than 2 with 2 shield boost amps. Inulns are simply crap for PvE, there are no level 3's that require quad resists. Only if you can spare plenty of tanking ability should you use them so you don't have to swap out each mission. You lose massive tanking ability in an active tank with invulns and you sacrifice a lot of tanking in a passive setup to get the cap to use invulns. Rails and ferox simply don't work well... unfortunately. The cap requirements are just too large. If there was a dmg bonus then it may be worth it... but as it is, nope. ********************************************** Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174
Takahashi Arran	Posted - 2006.09.05 09:51:00 - [37] Originally by: Shadarle Inulns are simply crap for PvE, there are no level 3's that require quad resists. except those that do- like the black market hub, or any of the other merc missions
Waagaa Ktlehr Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.05 10:40:00 - [38] Originally by: Takahashi Arran Originally by: Shadarle Inulns are simply crap for PvE, there are no level 3's that require quad resists. except those that do- like the black market hub, or any of the other merc missions Mercs, Angels, Drones... :) ------------------------------------------
Pottsey Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:11:00 - [39] ôYour tank suffers a fair bit to do this. So sure, you can use rails... but you're losing out on the tank part of your ship. If you wanna use rails that bad, fine... but realize the tradeoff you're making.ö & ôOr better yet, check out my sig where I already crunched the numbers.ö Your tank loserÆs in one area but gets stronger in 2 tanking areas. YouÆre focusing too much on the on the HP regen side and not takeing the rest of the tank into account. I donÆt agree with the results in you sig as your not taking into account hitpoints or the amount of time you spend at a higher regen. This is a very rough example. (at work so not 100% sure on numbers). My PDS domi has sometime like 10k more hitpoints then a shield relay domi. I might lose 50HP/s regen over relays but it will take shield relay setup over 200seconds in combat to heal the amount of damage that I have as base over the shield relay setup. So even though I have less HP regen my tnak is stronger and better off then the high regen setup for the first 200 seconds of the battle. As most battles are not that long the PDS setup is better then the relay setup for PvP and short PvE. Yet your results make it look like a bad choice. The 2nd advantage is you spend spend longer at peak and in the high regen area with PDS over relays. ôBut please, for the love of god, stay away from shield extenders on the same setup as a shield booster. If you use a shield booster there shouldn't be a single passive tanking item on your shipö ThatÆs just not true if you use shield boosters you should be using PDS modules. That and 1 shield extender can be useful for various reasons, Passive hardeners to are useful. Passive shield tanking guide, click here.
Shadarle	Posted - 2006.09.05 16:51:00 - [40] Edited by: Shadarle on 05/09/2006 16:55:09 "YouÆre focusing too much on the on the HP regen side and not takeing the rest of the tank into account. I donÆt agree with the results in you sig as your not taking into account hitpoints or the amount of time you spend at a higher regen. This is a very rough example. (at work so not 100% sure on numbers)." You obviously don't understand the numbers I have listed. My list shows avg tank, then it shows the max tank. The max tank is the most dps you can withstand forever. This is a critical number as it shows the true tanking ability of any setup. Sure if you have 15k shields it will let you tank for a bit... but generally you have 15k shields because you short changed your resists/shield boosting and thus it doesn't help one bit. If you have 15k shields and take 150 dps it's worse than having 5k shields and taking 50 dps in an active tank. "As most battles are not that long the PDS setup is better then the relay setup for PvP and short PvE. Yet your results make it look like a bad choice." What does length of the fight have to do with it? The SPR setup tanks better for a passive tank... it yields a higher regen. There is no other use for that cap in a missile setup. If you go with rails you sacrifice that added tank for the cap needed to use the rails. This is a pure loss of tanking to use rails, as I said. "The 2nd advantage is you spend spend longer at peak and in the high regen area with PDS over relays." This is the fundamental flaw with your reasoning. No, you don't spend longer in those areas because you're taking damage proportionally higher or you're regenning proportionally slower so you spend the exact same amount of time in those areas. The area itself is larger, but you go through it faster. "ThatÆs just not true if you use shield boosters you should be using PDS modules. That and 1 shield extender can be useful for various reasons, Passive hardeners to are useful." Exactly, an active setup uses shield boosters which means PDS. If you're using a different low you're screwing up. But if you have an active setup, the shield extender is severely hurting your tank compared to another resist mod or a shield boost amplifier. I've tested adding 1 extender to almost every setup and in ALL cases it drops your tank by a fairly large amount. Having the extra shields + extra sig is not a good thing if you go through those shields at a proportionally faster rate. Also, read below about the passive resist mods. They are great and I don't even consider them to be a passive only item, in fact passive resist mods are better in active tanks than passive tanks sometimes depending on the exact numbers. "except those that do- like the black market hub, or any of the other merc missions" "Mercs, Angels, Drones... :)" Angel's do 2 damage types for 90% of their dmg. Thus you can safely fit for Expl/Kin and do very well. Their EM/Therm dmg is tiny on almost all of their ships that you face a lot of/take a while to kill. As to the rest of those NPC's, the missions are all extremely easy. If you fit for two damage types they'd still be very easy. They really only do 3 damage types anyhow... so you could simply fit for 3 types instead of 2. It's still a better solution than using Invulns. Most people don't realize just how much that 4 cap/sec hurts their tank. Neither Mercs nor Drones do 4 types of damage in any real amount, it's 2 primary damage types with a 3rd thats of decent quantity... but mercs + drones are all in very easy missions for level 3's especially. Even more don't realize that a t2 passive resist mod with level 5 pass resist skill in that dmg type is better than an active mod of the same type... mostly because of the 2 cap/sec savings. This is true more the smaller the ship you fly, but still barely true on BS's. ********************************************** Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174
Pottsey Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 17:46:00 - [41] ôThe max tank is the most dps you can withstand forever. This is a critical number as it shows the true tanking ability of any setup.ö But it doesnÆt show the true tanking ability only part of the ability. The critical number to me is the time you last in battle. I assume by true tanking ability you mean how long you last in combat? Your numbers say I can tank 80ish HP/s a sec so my setup looks worse then relay setups at 140hp/s and if someone did 160DPS I would die. But you numbers donÆt show is that I would last 163seconds. (actually longer as I didnÆt factor in any regen) while the shield relay setup would already be dead. I am assuming 0 resistance to make the math easier as both setups would have the same amount of resistance. But my point is your not showing a true picture and the set-ups you show as better at tanking are not better in combat as they donÆt last as long. The point at which a shield relay HP regen ship heals more hitpoints then the hitpoint ship has over the realy ship is the point when the shield relay setup is the better option. The problem is that time is often in minuets which is longer then most battles take. Do I need to post an exmple? ôIf you have 15k shields and take 150 dps it's worse than having 5k shields and taking 50 dps in an active tank.ö Its not always worse it depends on the regen of the two setups. Without regen both last 100seconds. Passive shield tanking guide, click here.
Pottsey Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 17:46:00 - [42] Edited by: Pottsey on 05/09/2006 17:50:40 öWhat does length of the fight have to do with it? The SPR setup tanks better for a passive tank... it yields a higher regen. There is no other use for that cap in a missile setup. If you go with rails you sacrifice that added tank for the cap needed to use the rails. This is a pure loss of tanking to use rails, as I said.ö Ok going simplified this is a little and take out resistance as itÆs the same for both setups. Say my PDS Domi has 22k hitpoints and for some reason instead of 66HP regen it has 0 regen my shield relay domi has 15k and 126 HP regen and for some reason shield recharge at peak from 0 to 100%. Someone does 20k worth of damage in 30 seconds. That leaves my PDS ship on 2k hitpoints and the shield relay over 30 seconds will have healed 3,780 added on top of 15k gives it 18k ish so itÆs dead as its sustained more damage then it can heal. The shield relay ship is now dead and the PDS ship is still alive with more time to kill the enemy or run. Now take that same idea but factor in that the shield relay ship is not at peak from 0 to 100% and factor in the PDS ship also has HP regen. You now end up with the shield relay ship dieing even sooner and the PDS ship lasting a lot longer. So if youÆre fighting a battle where the enemy will not break your tank sure shield relays are better. But if youÆre fighting a high damage battle hitpoint ships are better. So the length of the battle matters when determining which tanking method is best. ItÆs not a case of SPR tanks better for a passive tank not all the time. Choose the right setup for the right situation I often swap between PDS and relays depending on what I am doing. ôI've tested adding 1 extender to almost every setup and in ALL cases it drops your tank by a fairly large amount.ö Yes your HP regne drops but what youÆre not taking into account is the extra hitpoints the enemy has to go though and the time it takes him to go though those hitpoints. For example a domi with no modules has 5400 ish hitpoints. Now add on a shied extenders and you get 2693 extra hitpoints thatÆs like having 22seconds worth of hitpoints at 120HP regen all in 1 go. You donÆt factor those hitpoints in you just look at the HP regne and thatÆs it. ôHaving the extra shields + extra sig is not a good thing if you go through those shields at a proportionally faster rate.ö A few points both the hitpoint based and relay ship tend to have the same amount of extenders so the sig is the same, next 25sig is nothing and hardly hurts. You donÆt always though shields at a proportionally rate. At least not always as above it depends on the length of the battle and the DPS you are takeing. The only time the shield relays are better are for long battles or low DPS battles for short to medium battles or high damage battles hitpoints are better as you go though your shields at a proportionally faster rate for the relay setup. ItÆs the length of the battle and the DPS you are being hit with that determines which is better relays or PDS. ItÆs not a case of 1 is better then the other. ôYou obviously don't understand the numbers I have listed. My list shows avg tank, then it shows the max tank. The max tank is the most dps you can withstand forever.ö I understand your numbers I am saying they are misleading. ItÆs a great start and I do like what your doing I just think you need to factor in hitpoints or have some sort of note at the bottom explaining hitpoints can sometimes be better then HP regen. Otherwise people will take the HP regen setup thinking it better when sometimes itÆs worse. Passive shield tanking guide, click here.
Dagam Dagam Corp	Posted - 2006.09.05 18:33:00 - [43] I find my railferox kills things much faster than missileferox but has a weaker tank. Bottom line, rails get the missions done faster, only problem is they're more SP intensive than missiles. Cap usage isn't a big deal and not the deciding factor in choosing what weapon to use.
Waenn Ironstaff Caldari Colossus Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.05 19:49:00 - [44] Do you go with a passive tank with pds for the rail setup? Or the Large Shield Booster + Amp combo?
Pottsey Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.05 20:11:00 - [45] What do you do PvE, PvP, solo, gangs, what type of missions? Its hard to say whats best for you without knowing more on what you want to do. There is no 1 best setup. I would go passive and railguns my self but I am not a big missile fan. If your doing lvl 3 missions both setups will work so use what you find most fun. Passive shield tanking guide, click here.
Dagam Dagam Corp	Posted - 2006.09.05 20:35:00 - [46] I went with 5x 250 rails / 3 hardeners, AB, large shield booster II / 3 damage mods, 1 PDU. If you wanted to go passive, you can switch down to 200mm's to free up some pg for the 2 large shield extenders. Many mission running setups for lvl 3s look like overkill tankwise. If you can run the mission with 3 damage mods, you should do instead of fitting more tank which doesn't help you get it done fast.
Waenn Ironstaff Caldari Colossus Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.05 20:47:00 - [47] Edited by: Waenn Ironstaff on 05/09/2006 20:48:40 Originally by: Pottsey What do you do PvE, PvP, solo, gangs, what type of missions? Its hard to say whats best for you without knowing more on what you want to do. There is no 1 best setup. I would go passive and railguns my self but I am not a big missile fan. If your doing lvl 3 missions both setups will work so use what you find most fun. Sorry for the lack of precision. I always assume it's pvp related since Pve setups are rather easy to guess. The purpose of my Ferox is for Support Fire with assistance from the Siege Warfare Link Module, using Medium Railguns. Small to Medium Gang. No limits on the type of weaponry, it could be either 250mm or Dual-125mm. And no I am not interested in sniping setup for I have no interest in such pvp course and do not have access to it anyway. But the question of tanking is the most problematic.
Shadarle	Posted - 2006.09.05 21:08:00 - [48] Pottsey, I see where our main lack of agreement is coming from. You are mostly basing your arguments on PvP damage and I'm basing mine on PvE. I replied a bit longer in my thread, but basically I agree you're probably right for PvP... extenders can be better depending on the amount of damage you're taking. In PvE, however, the max dps you can withstand is the main figure as you won't be taking such incredibly high burst dps generally. The main reason for my list is because I see people posting ship setups over and over and over and over and everyone thinks their setup is the best. The reason is that humans love to base their opinions on how a setup "feels" to them, not on the numbers. I wanted to finally settle the debate about which setups actually tank better... next I plan to tackle the dps part of the equation in combo with the tanking. So I can list the DPS/Tankage of each setup... that will be truly interesting imo. ********************************************** Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174
Dagam Dagam Corp	Posted - 2006.09.05 21:08:00 - [49] I still say go active because cap boosters are the win in many situations. 20km scrambler, cap booster, large shield booster II, EM hardener, invuln. Active without cap booster is vulnerable to nos and passive with rails is dodgy because of the power grid on rails.

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