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insanebe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:39:00 -
[1]
There are too many players in the npc corps that shouldn't be there, alot are isk farmers and macro users who enjoy the safety of being in a corp that can't be wardek'd,
im not sure how you would do it but maybe stop skill training once they get 5 million skill points or stop there isk balance once it gets to 100 mill or something
these guys who are in the npc corps should be made to play the game, ie join a player corp or make their own player corp
knowledge is power.... guard it well |
Usul Faust
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:42:00 -
[2]
why?
let people do whatever they want, and punish them when they break the rules.
don't punish people because there's the possibility that somebody, somewhere is breaking the rules.
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Spoon Thumb
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Posted - 2006.04.20 12:50:00 -
[3]
So long as people know that they can join freelancer corps and alliances and those corps and alliances are correctly set up and available to all
Maybe after a set amount of time (5 months), you get chucked into a different NPC corp from the newbie corp. In that second NPC corp, you can be personally (as an individual) wardec'ed
***
Spoon Thumb - I can scoop ice cream with my thumbs!
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insanebe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 13:16:00 -
[4]
the reasons are clear its unfair on the player industrial corps,
if a group of miners from an npc corp move into an area where a player corp is mining the player corp can't do anything about it,
if another player corp moves in and starts mining then the first player corp can declare war on the 2nd or higher merc/pvp corps to chase them away,
the people in the npc corps just arn't playing the game
knowledge is power.... guard it well |
James Duar
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:13:00 -
[5]
People in NPC corps can play the game however they want - they shouldn't be forced to do anything.
Chasing off NPC miners is easy enough - loot their ore cans and then wait for them to shoot you, then blow 'em away. A group of NPC corp miners will not have the coordination to properly war over mining territory.
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insanebe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:07:00 -
[6]
Edited by: insanebe on 20/04/2006 15:11:18
Edited by: insanebe on 20/04/2006 15:10:03
you still havn't answered my point of it isn't fair
and alot of miners don't leave jet cans
and what if i want to take out the industrial competition ?
i can't cos i can't war dek them
knowledge is power.... guard it well |
Jacobz
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:26:00 -
[7]
I agree, people should be un-corp after 1 month. This would benefit the world overall, with more players "influenced" to join the 0.0 territory by other humans. The fact that you cannot be "un-corped" is puzzling me. Why not being a free agent?
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Enochia Starr
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:10:00 -
[8]
I agree,
Give people a 3 month or 3M SP learning curve and then place them in a war-decable corp. I believe this would be a good tie in with Factional Warfare. Make these corps open season for people aligned to enemy factions.
(((((Mullah of the Thousandfold Thought))))) |
James Duar
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:25:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: insanebe
Edited by: insanebe on 20/04/2006 15:11:18
Edited by: insanebe on 20/04/2006 15:10:03
you still havn't answered my point of it isn't fair
and alot of miners don't leave jet cans
and what if i want to take out the industrial competition ?
i can't cos i can't war dek them
Hold on, how the hell can you face serious mining competition and have them not leaving jet cans? Unless an indy is sitting there emptying it as fast as it can, there'll be a can. Otherwise they're not really seriously trying to mine.
As for industrial competition - that's just a nerf isn't it? People should be able to solo and act as industrial producers. Having it possible to war-dec them is just making it possible to blow them away whenever you want, and we have .1-.4 space for that sort of thing.
Essentially, in all the cases you describe, your corp has to messing up pretty bad to actually have a problem.
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insanebe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 17:38:00 -
[10]
Edited by: insanebe on 20/04/2006 17:40:34
Edited by: insanebe on 20/04/2006 17:39:18
come back when you have more experience, im not flaming you , but its pretty obvious you have little experience 
there are many macro abusers who abuse the npc corps to farm isk, this causes prices to crash and abnormally low markets,
and those that don't use macro's will have someone in a hauler collecting as fast as it is produced,
there is only 1 reason npc corps exist and thats to help new players get to grips with the game
not to provide an invulnerability blanket to those who have been playing for years
they don't have to join a 0.0 corp or anyone elses corp they can make their own and work alone if they want , but people who have been playing for years don't deserve such protection and neither do the macro users :p
knowledge is power.... guard it well |
Mistress Suffering
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Posted - 2006.04.20 18:21:00 -
[11]
Agreed.
Hiding in NPC corps is basically using a rules loophole to avoid being accountable within the confines of the Eve universe.
That's fine for very new players, after that, it should end.
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HermIone's
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Posted - 2006.04.20 19:35:00 -
[12]
Quoted from insanebe) (There are too many players in the npc corps that shouldn't be there, alot are isk farmers and macro users who enjoy the safety of being in a corp that can't be wardek'd,
im not sure how you would do it but maybe stop skill training once they get 5 million skill points or stop there isk balance once it gets to 100 mill or something
these guys who are in the npc corps should be made to play the game, ie join a player corp or make their own player corp
knowledge is power.... guard it well)
Oh bull leave the people alone if they dont want to be in a player corp leave them in a npc corp. And if your not smart enough to run them off your mining grounds then maybe you should be playing something else... And who made you King of the game anyways to tell people who they should play?
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Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.04.20 20:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mistress Suffering
Agreed.
Hiding in NPC corps is basically using a rules loophole to avoid being accountable within the confines of the Eve universe.
That's fine for very new players, after that, it should end.
And war-dec'ing corps so that you can pirate in high-sec is using a rules loophole to avoid be accountable within the confines of high-sec space. If you want to blow people up for mining, go to .4 and below. You don't want Concord working in .1-.4, stop asking that they not work in .5-1.0.
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In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
insanebe
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Posted - 2006.04.20 21:22:00 -
[14]
would only experienced players post plz :p
knowledge is power.... guard it well |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.20 21:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mihail d'Amour
Originally by: Mistress Suffering
Agreed.
Hiding in NPC corps is basically using a rules loophole to avoid being accountable within the confines of the Eve universe.
That's fine for very new players, after that, it should end.
And war-dec'ing corps so that you can pirate in high-sec is using a rules loophole to avoid be accountable within the confines of high-sec space. If you want to blow people up for mining, go to .4 and below. You don't want Concord working in .1-.4, stop asking that they not work in .5-1.0.
Welcome to Eve. It's a PvP-centric game.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
BlckJck90
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Posted - 2006.04.20 21:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: insanebe
would only experienced players post plz :p
knowledge is power.... guard it well
Ignorance is bliss...die happy
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Mishaa
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Posted - 2006.04.20 22:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: insanebe
would only experienced players post plz :p
Dont you mean to say ( would only players who see it my way post plz)
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ragewind
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Posted - 2006.04.20 23:16:00 -
[18]
lol kicked out of an ncp corp after one month you can still have no reall skills after a month if you start with the learnings so 1 month is rather unrealist, and i have to agree why force pepole's way of playing the game we just need ccp to get better at detectingg the isk farmers
fix eves industrial sector!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=319618&page=1 |
Lord Slater
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Posted - 2006.04.21 00:39:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Lord Slater on 21/04/2006 00:39:35
at this thread.
This topic has been on loads of times it will never happen ever ccp wont do this ever so why dont you go to 0.0 and kill some real targets.
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insanebe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 00:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: ragewind
lol kicked out of an ncp corp after one month you can still have no reall skills after a month if you start with the learnings so 1 month is rather unrealist, and i have to agree why force pepole's way of playing the game we just need ccp to get better at detectingg the isk farmers
cos its wrong they distort the market 
and detecting isk farmers would probably cause lag
and yes 1 month is too soon :P
but would the game really be that much different if they were forced out of the invincible npc corps ?
people keep asking me why force there way of playing the game ?
to this i would say would it really change the way they play that much ? they can still mine in a player corp and no its unlikely that a pirate corp will declare you, i have been a in a few corps and its pretty rare to be declared even more so if your small ( they like big targets)
knowledge is power.... guard it well |
Kate Ne
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Posted - 2006.04.21 01:34:00 -
[21]
Stupid idea, really.
You want to kill them - go and do so in <.5. You want to do that in high-sec - tough luck, but why would you sit in high-sec yourself, being all so in a corp and alliance, and overally cool?
There's nothing in high-sec for serious corps to compete for. Ok, there might be a thing or two, but those you can buy easily, and a .0 corp can make much more money than a high-sec one, so who cares?
And what farmers have to do with this, anyway? Raining hell on the entire population because some people misbehave is an exquisite nonsense. This certainly isn't a players problem, it's a CCP one. Let them fix it.
As for EVE being PvP-centric, EVE is also a commercial enterprise. The amount of people in NPC corps clearly shows what's the majority thinks of "PvP" in general and "centric" specifically. Force everyone to PvP and whoopsie - you'll start seeing those PCUs go down and down. There'll be no new clusters, no new graphic engines, no new expansions, no EVE.
Dismissed.
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James Snowscoran
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:01:00 -
[22]
Kicking them out is way too harsh, and will alienate a lot of people causing them to quit the game. CCP obviously don't want that.
But to limit alt abuse and encourage new players to get into the private sector, you could impose a 15% corp tax in the newbie corps, as well as a special 5% tax on all transactions and refines.
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Not Usul
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:51:00 -
[23]
I'm in a noob corp, and i have no need to join a player corp.
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Usul Faust
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Not Usul
I'm in a noob corp, and i have no need to join a player corp.
OMFG MACRO MINER!!1
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Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.04.21 12:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Usul Faust
Originally by: Not Usul
I'm in a noob corp, and i have no need to join a player corp.
OMFG MACRO MINER!!1
Maybe he just wants to play the game with high-sec space working like it is supposed to? High-sec is designed to be patroled, reasonably safe space where piracy is more (if not adequately) penalised than in low-sec. If you join a player corp, people can pirate you just by war-dec'ing. It is 0 risk to them, all risk for you, and stupidly cheap. Staying in a noob corp is a workaround for an exploit issue. Fix the exploit and we can talk about disabling the work-around.
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In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
Kalaan Oratay
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Spoon Thumb
So long as people know that they can join freelancer corps and alliances and those corps and alliances are correctly set up and available to all
Maybe after a set amount of time (5 months), you get chucked into a different NPC corp from the newbie corp. In that second NPC corp, you can be personally (as an individual) wardec'ed
/signed
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Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:07:00 -
[27]
Insanabe, the problem and the solution don't match well. If it is your argument that we need to completely revisit noob corp membership because of a few macro-miners who are already breaking the TOS, I have to disagree. This isn't a solution that fixes that problem, it simply creates more disgruntled players and more opportunities for war-dec-griefing in high-sec. If the market is being damaged by people breaking the rules, let's think of a way to rein them in without trying to destroy the game for players we don't like because they aren't in a multi-billion isk alliance and don't have millions to throw away on destroyed ships every week.
What ever happened to the idea of making asteroid fields far smaller, only discoverable through scanning, and making them spawn periodically through the day, so they are never all gone and never is there a field you can strip mine for 100 million dense veldspar with a macro-fleet. This would keep mining for an individual or corp as easy as it is now, but make macro-mining a bigger pain in the afterburner.
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In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
Usul Faust
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mihail d'Amour
Originally by: Usul Faust
Originally by: Not Usul
I'm in a noob corp, and i have no need to join a player corp.
OMFG MACRO MINER!!1
Maybe he just wants to play the game with high-sec space working like it is supposed to? High-sec is designed to be patroled, reasonably safe space where piracy is more (if not adequately) penalised than in low-sec. If you join a player corp, people can pirate you just by war-dec'ing. It is 0 risk to them, all risk for you, and stupidly cheap. Staying in a noob corp is a workaround for an exploit issue. Fix the exploit and we can talk about disabling the work-around.
Not Usul is my alt.
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Iron Wraith
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:52:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mihail d'Amour
Insanabe, the problem and the solution don't match well. If it is your argument that we need to completely revisit noob corp membership because of a few macro-miners who are already breaking the TOS, I have to disagree. This isn't a solution that fixes that problem, it simply creates more disgruntled players and more opportunities for war-dec-griefing in high-sec. If the market is being damaged by people breaking the rules, let's think of a way to rein them in without trying to destroy the game for players we don't like because they aren't in a multi-billion isk alliance and don't have millions to throw away on destroyed ships every week.
What ever happened to the idea of making asteroid fields far smaller, only discoverable through scanning, and making them spawn periodically through the day, so they are never all gone and never is there a field you can strip mine for 100 million dense veldspar with a macro-fleet. This would keep mining for an individual or corp as easy as it is now, but make macro-mining a bigger pain in the afterburner.
what he said!
you cant kick people out of the newbie corp because some are abusing it. there are lots of good reasons for older players to be in the newbie corps. some actualy like to play solo in these games and the newbie corp is the closest they can get to that. sure they can make a 1 man corp but then they will just be war dec fodder.
dont demolish the park cos bad guys use it at night. thats not fair on all people who like using it in the day. find another way to fix the problem. your right to try thinking of a solution, but this isnt it.
Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots:
[2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage. |
Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:13:00 -
[30]
problem is if someone doesnt like the color of your ship they can war dec for pennies, war dec costs need to be raised based on the number of players in a corp, smaller the target corp the more it costs. deccing a 1 man corp should be like 500mil a day.
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Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:28:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
problem is if someone doesnt like the color of your ship they can war dec for pennies, war dec costs need to be raised based on the number of players in a corp, smaller the target corp the more it costs. deccing a 1 man corp should be like 500mil a day.
If you can find it, I made a post on inlining war declaration costs with, what I thought, was a balanced approach to war-dec'ing (or at least a far more balanced one than is current), embracing the reality of the inflation in Eve over the last few years since the price was initially set.
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In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:36:00 -
[32]
Even at the start of Eve the wardec cost was nominal. This is intentional. And no, SP are an exremely BAD guide to combat power.
Viktor Fyretracker, if they know wehere you are at all times and only pay while you're in space, sure. And they've fixed the scan probes. And...
Iron Wraith, why SHOULD they be able to duck the consequences of their actions?
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.04.23 02:57:00 -
[33]
SP weren't intended to be a gauge of combat power so much as a guage of experience. And it is a far better system than what we have now.
It is kind of silly to talk about consequences while defending an exploit that avoids them.
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In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
Lygos
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Posted - 2006.04.23 04:09:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Lygos on 23/04/2006 04:10:08
I can see why I might have once had a position on the issue out of principle or something.. but not that much these days.
It just isn't that much of an issue. They can't leave high sec space any more than anyone else. Sure, they're scummy bastards who might insult you or play afk or something. Oh well. The real world is fully of similar people you can't really touch. My own profession isn't much different.
The only real problem is that they can compete evenly with pc corp members on the market. Not that many people declare wars simply because someone else is undercutting them on the price of armageddons though..
A simple 3-5% market tax or a 10% npcing tithe would be sufficient for making the situation equitable in terms of formalism.
---
Set Orbit
Eunoia: The persistent suspicion that the universe is secretly conspiring to quietly improve one's life |
TheJanitor
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Posted - 2006.04.23 07:45:00 -
[35]
Edited by: TheJanitor on 23/04/2006 07:46:00
Easy.
Just ban Barges and Battleships from newb corps...or at least fitting mining lasers on Barges and Battleships.
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Drizit
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:00:00 -
[36]
The problem with that is if you leave or get kicked from your corp, you end up in a noob corp. Now you can't fly your barge etc to take them elsewhere away from the POS you were stationed at. So banning NPC corp members from using certain ships affects other players who are trying to play the game as it was intended too.
The only viable solution would be to have NPC corps that are not untouchable and noobs are transferred into it when their sp reaches a certain limit. To prevent wardeccing an entire corp for a few people, individual war decs can be declared 1v1 or 2v2 etc. You name those in your corp who will wage war on those in the NPC corp. The limitation is that you cannot outnumber the other side but you can chose to let them outnumber you if you think you can cope.
I have macro miners in my system who come in just after DT and take all the Kernite. I'd love to be able to get them but Concord won't let me and they are in NPC corps so I can't war dec them. Many others like me are stuck in a situation where Macro miners are protected by the system and they are taking the resources that the "real" players need to actually play the game. There are groups of them in almost every system now and it's geting harder to play the game because of it. If they let the players war dec these people, it would thin them out some. CCP wouldn't need to do anything to stop them, they would soon leave when they are losing more than they can mine.
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Mahavy Seth
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:34:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Drizit
The problem with that is if you leave or get kicked from your corp, you end up in a noob corp. Now you can't fly your barge etc to take them elsewhere away from the POS you were stationed at. So banning NPC corp members from using certain ships affects other players who are trying to play the game as it was intended too.
The only viable solution would be to have NPC corps that are not untouchable and noobs are transferred into it when their sp reaches a certain limit. To prevent wardeccing an entire corp for a few people, individual war decs can be declared 1v1 or 2v2 etc. You name those in your corp who will wage war on those in the NPC corp. The limitation is that you cannot outnumber the other side but you can chose to let them outnumber you if you think you can cope.
I have macro miners in my system who come in just after DT and take all the Kernite. I'd love to be able to get them but Concord won't let me and they are in NPC corps so I can't war dec them. Many others like me are stuck in a situation where Macro miners are protected by the system and they are taking the resources that the "real" players need to actually play the game. There are groups of them in almost every system now and it's geting harder to play the game because of it. If they let the players war dec these people, it would thin them out some. CCP wouldn't need to do anything to stop them, they would soon leave when they are losing more than they can mine.
We will have 25millions SP players pirates that continuously declare on small groups of 5 millions SP players, massacrating them continuously until they are forced to leave the game or join a big corp, which anyway will be unable to protect them cause EVE PVP is all guerrilla fight.
Sig dimensions must be no more than 400x120. Please mail [email protected] for info - Cathath |
Iron Wraith
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Posted - 2006.04.25 09:37:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Iron Wraith, why SHOULD they be able to duck the consequences of their actions?
i think you misunderstood me. i'm saying you cant nerf the newbie corp for older players because some are in there for good reasons. some players dont want to be part of a player corp, they want to play solo. there are some players running lvl4 missions in their BS's that dont want to be part of a player corp. sure its not getting the most out of eve but why should we stop them if thats how they enjoy the game?
you can put restrictions on what gear a player can use, what skills they can train and if they can be individualy war deced just cos they are an older player in the newbie corp.
you need to find another way to get at abusers without ruining things for the innocent.
maybe being able to pay an extra amount to concord to chase players ducking out of a corp you've wardeced. if someone has been smack talking your members and generaly being a pain in the neck so you decide to war dec his corp it would be nice to pay concord an extra amount to war him even if he leaves the corp. maybe for balance it should be payed up front. so if you wind up in a war you had no part in you can still abandon you corp. but if your a [beep] and go round stiring things up then those you've offended can chase you no matter what corp your in.
so if you war dec a corp and specify for an aditional fee a hand full of corp members you are after concord will let your war dec follow them into the newbie corp. that will give corps more incentive to kick our the... erm... not so nice players.
what this doesnt let you do is get retribution on newbie corp griefers or macro miners. i suppose a system where you submited chat logs as evidence to concord (gm team) and requested a personal war would be a fair ssytem to allow griefers to be war deced while protecting the innocent. but i cant see that working due to the subjectivity of it and the number of man hours involved in overseeing a system like that.
and how do you identify macro miners? afk miners are easily confused with macroers. and what about someone who does have a lot of time and spends almost the entire day mining? how do you say he's a player and thats a bot? with all the fancy systems and tricks ccp could pull to make macroers life hard letting players war dec them would be the best by far. it would be the difference between not gaining any money cos your bot cant find the ore to mine, to loosing money cos your bot keeps letting ships get ganked by players.
but i dont think you can spot a bot from a player. anything you try to put in place to differentiate can be mimicked by a better bot. even to the point of the mouse + keyboard bots becoming redundent while memory managing bots take over.
hmm, i wonder if an extreemly wealthy player group could fund enough kamakazi ships to force a macro group out of the game? while macroers can make a lot of money a wealthy player group with t2 bpo's can make a lot more.
gad damnit. i wish you could war dec macroers. would be fun to go back to empire for some witch hunts 
Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots:
[2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage. |
Kensai Lans
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Posted - 2006.04.25 09:58:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Kensai Lans on 25/04/2006 09:59:06
Newb corps are for newbs, and newbs only really, that said experianced players can help newbs by answering questions in the corp channel, i dont think this can really be changed.
I think what really needs to be done is to find an effective way of picking up macro miners and banning them, i do find it weird that people join mmorpgs to sit in a newb corp tho and too not attempt to interact with others tho.
So i guess you could say im neutral :)
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Iron Wraith
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Posted - 2006.04.25 10:04:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kensai Lans
Edited by: Kensai Lans on 25/04/2006 09:59:06
Newb corps are for newbs, and newbs only really, that said experianced players can help newbs by answering questions in the corp channel, i dont think this can really be changed.
I think what really needs to be done is to find an effective way of picking up macro miners and banning them, i do find it weird that people join mmorpgs to sit in a newb corp tho and too not attempt to interact with others tho.
So i guess you could say im neutral :)
hehe yeah. it is kinda strange to play a multiplayer game solo but some like it that way. lets face it, you cant get the same feeling of a living breathing world in a single player game that u can in a game like eve. so why not use eve for solo play? it provides a much richer depth
anyway, i like your point on the vets helping the newbies. i've seen it a lot and do my bit when i'm on as an alt. and i like asking about to see how many solo players are out there. they do exist and they do have fun. they like the fact they can chat away while doing their own thing.
Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots:
[2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage. |
Mihail d'Amour
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Posted - 2006.04.25 16:00:00 -
[41]
Here's an interesting compromise. Eve is all about choices and repercussions (not always well done, but usually there). So, why not just have NPC corps:
1. have a 20% tax rate for rewards/bounties.
2. have NPC corps charge an additional 5%-10% tax to their members on all market sales (market sales are not subject to normal corp taxes).
Ramifications: new players get less income. new traders will make smaller margins. people who suck at math might lose money on the market. macro-miners will be competing at a disadvantage on the market. players who are starting to get along in their careers will be compelled to move towards player corps for fiscal reasons. player corps will no longer seem to be fleecing their members by having 10% tax rates.
This doesn't force players to leave NPC corps, but it does encourage it. People can still choose to play as they like, but there are competitive advantages to belonging to a player-corp.
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In nomine Domine, quod erat malum |
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