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Dampfschlaghammer
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dampfschlaghammer on 22/04/2006 16:22:40
Edited by: Dampfschlaghammer on 22/04/2006 16:12:06
One of the crucial ingredients to interesting and balanced fleet battles is the need for combined arms. Not one unit (long range sniping bs) to rule them all, but several different units with appropriate tasks and roles.
Right now a long range BS turret fleet with precision cruise missiles in excess launcher high slots can take out any support charging them. Consequently, no need for anti-support either.
While there is certainly some skill required in maneuvering fleets into the correct position, there is very little room left for interesting tactics in the battle itself. Most firepower + focus fire wins.
Solution: dont simply nerf precisions, remove them altogether. BS sized guns should under no circumstances be more than an annoyance to support. Killing support is the task of anti-support, like slow cruisers and battlecruisers. Transversal at long range is also a problem, but less urgent as using the damage dealing main guns to kill support comes at least with a hefty drawback.
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Trevize dk
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:12:00 -
[2]
This has been discussed over and over again. Fact of the matter is: If a BS fire a missile at you - it will surely hit you, and hopefully kill you. This goes for BS in eve and for ships IRL.
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Tobin Ba'ha
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:14:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Trevize dk
This has been discussed over and over again. Fact of the matter is: If a BS fire a missile at you - it will surely hit you, and hopefully kill you. This goes for BS in eve and for ships IRL.
Really? A battleship in real life hits a torpedo boat with every shot? That's news to me. And by the way, real life comparisons for balance issues in MMOs are just plain idiocy. The OP has a point in that this game shouldn't devolve into one strategy, the way it has.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:14:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Ithildin on 22/04/2006 16:18:20
Originally by: Trevize dk
This has been discussed over and over again. Fact of the matter is: If a BS fire a missile at you - it will surely hit you, and hopefully kill you. This goes for BS in eve and for ships IRL.
With the only exception being that it's really bad for the game and game play.
Edit: also forgot to tell you that small ships' weapons has a very good chance of sinking larger ships in one shot, too. This is a game of hit points and repairing, not a game of advanced targeting versus advanced countermeasures with "hit points" deciding only more or less whether the PILOT survives.
New sig coming soonÖ
Drone musing (MC-boards) |
Morrigan Starlover
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:17:00 -
[5]
Yeah I agree. Putting target painters into missiles isn't right. Other turrets ammo differs in damage and range.
Precision cruise is bs. I imagine a caldari fleet firing a bunch of precision cruises at anyone they want is rather IWIN.
Not even defend missiles can help you when so many missiles incomming that can't miss..
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Trevize dk
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tobin Ba'ha
Originally by: Trevize dk
This has been discussed over and over again. Fact of the matter is: If a BS fire a missile at you - it will surely hit you, and hopefully kill you. This goes for BS in eve and for ships IRL.
Really? A battleship in real life hits a torpedo boat with every shot? That's news to me. And by the way, real life comparisons for balance issues in MMOs are just plain idiocy. The OP has a point in that this game shouldn't devolve into one strategy, the way it has.
Bud, I thought you knew. We dont have liquid water in space, so the torps are not torps. In fact they are missiles. Kinda of a surprise ey?
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Hithero Wolf
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dampfschlaghammer
Edited by: Dampfschlaghammer on 22/04/2006 16:12:06
Solution: dont simply nerf precisions, remove them altogether. BS sized guns should under no circumstances be more than an annoyance to support. Killing support is the task of anti-support, like slow cruisers and battlecruisers. Transversal at long range is also a probably, but less urgent as using the damage dealing main guns to kill support comes at least with a hefty drawback.
And yet again make intys near immune? No thank you. For missles users that only thing that really can deal with intys are the precision.
Second, nerf BS guns then aswell. ive seen BS fry a BB before i could bet a lock. Ive seen bs shoot Frigates to tiny bits in seconds. Why just missles, why not all everything in a BS arsenal that can be used to kill a cruiser.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:22:00 -
[8]
Isnt drones just as good at taking out frigates as precision missiles are?
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pwned |
Slink Grinsdikild
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:26:00 -
[9]
I hate it when someone brings up real life comparisons as a smokescreen to distract attention from the issue at hand - precision missiles being immensely overpowered. Gameplay should always take precedence over realism.
Originally by: Trevize dk
This goes for BS in eve and for ships IRL.
There are Battleships in real life? 
Not in the last 50 years I can assure you.
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:33:00 -
[10]
Although I kinda agree with you that precision missiles might be a tad too good you have to remember that in order to fit the "remaining" gun slots with them you need to have also trained up for them and also have the grid/cpu to fit the launchers... which is quite hard in everything but caldari ships.
I think it's ok as it is... it was far far worse in the past |
Scalor Valentis
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:38:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Scalor Valentis on 22/04/2006 16:38:42
Originally by: Hithero Wolf
And yet again make intys near immune? No thank you.
Immune against what?
A Battleship class anticapitalship wepon? Yes pleas.
[23] Member: BoB Alt whoe
Originally by: IcedBach Jr
BOB are continuing their "ruin of EVE" campaign.
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Zysco
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hithero Wolf
Why just missles, why not all everything in a BS arsenal that can be used to kill a cruiser.
Works for me.
New Petition Inc Vid
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Litus Arowar
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:39:00 -
[13]
in my humble opinion, killing inties should be done with drones, nos, webs, painters, smartbombs, or medium/small guns... also, it can be done with inties, destroyers, AFs, and recon ships
should it be doable with large weapons? personally, I don't think so, but the crowd seems to be kinda split on this
and as for real life comparisons, they're completely worthless arguments... shouldn't a stealth bomber be able to instapop a battleship? after all, it's the equivalent of a U-boat, so let's roll back 60 years and see how that all went... pointless arguments, as in real life, bigger is often better, but if you want that from your games you'll hopefully be disappointed
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:40:00 -
[14]
I do not think their overpowered, its only their use at clse range thats 'overpowered'. A bunch of long range BS will easly smush any cepter not moving at decent traversal, news flash thats the same for precisions as soon as a cepter or frigate pilot ogoes more than XX km/s the precisions dont do any dmg at all even if they are traveling directly to the target (low trans = dead cepter to guns fire).
FFS dont nerf precisions, it takes me half as many missiles to kill small things, which is often more than it takes normal cruise to kill a cruiser.... a frigate lasting longer than a cruiser..... thats already good in my book. Lets not for get that webbed/painted frigs at 2-10kms will die horribly to close range BS aswell. And lets forget the 24k isk ver volly cost!!!!
They are not overpowered, just overused. And we still have WCS dont we, Christ almightly you've all gone soft!!!!
Deal with it, its a game ffs and its working very well get out their and play it.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:40:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 22/04/2006 16:43:45
* Precision missiles;
* Oveur and precision nerfing;
Nostalgia:
* Missile;
"Cruise: altho wished, these missiles are not meant to smoke cruisers in a single volley, cruise launchers get better DPS vs. smaller targets than siege, without target painters. The main purpose of the cruise launcher was to give players more flexible fitting options and being able to deal damage at longer ranges than the siege launcher + faster at getting to impact."
* Missile & Launcher Overhaul.
"all battleships suck now and no one wants to fly them, all hail industrials, the new king & queen of combat"
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
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Dampfschlaghammer
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Posted - 2006.04.22 16:55:00 -
[16]
Immunity to BS guns for all but careless inty pilots is completely ok for me, and high resistance by cruisers as well. However, make support vulnerable to med guns and of course to anti-support ships like inty vs destroyers or long range cruisers.
Tempest, for example, can fit full large guns + 2 cruise launcher with one RCU II in lows, though I give you that without BCU II and Raven bonus precisions become less overpowered by a good margin.
Regarding heavy drones and heavy nos: you might be correct about their impact on support being much too high. However, if other items destroy the combined arms approach as well, then the solution is to fix them also, not to maintain the status quo.
Regarding RL comparison: a module-to-module comparison doesnt make a lot of sense. If you look at history, you will hardly find an instance where the military did not use combined arms. So apart from the absolute priority that should be given to gameplay considerations, this bigger perspective to RL comparisons is much more important.
Thx for pointing out the previous discussions Naughty Boy. Lets hope Oveur really has recognized this problem. As the thread title states, this is only one nail in the coffin though. Sniping transversal, nos and drones should be fixed as well, though much smaller changes might be enough here..
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Logan Fyreite
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Posted - 2006.04.22 17:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild
I hate it when someone brings up real life comparisons as a smokescreen to distract attention from the issue at hand - precision missiles being immensely overpowered. Gameplay should always take precedence over realism.
Originally by: Trevize dk
This goes for BS in eve and for ships IRL.
There are Battleships in real life?
Not in the last 50 years I can assure you.
First, the US navy used battleships in the 1996 war called Desert storm. They fired Tomahawk Cruise missiles and 16 in guns on targets in Kuwait.
If you want to make real life compairsons, let's look at cruise missiles. The Tomahawk takes roughtly 2 hours to properly target and upload a target to the missiles internal navigation systems. Russian Cruise missiles on the other hand could be fired in minutes and seek out the largest target on their radar screen, however they are not hand guided by anyone to a specific target.
Precision Cruise missiles seem a little overpowered, and it is hurting the gameplay some, but not nearly as much as ECM which is completely overpowered. Not everyone is fitting Cruise missiles. Precision need to be nerfed tho. When you get BS's using Cruise missiles to kill what is essentially the smallest target in eve short of a stealth Bomber or recon ship there is something wrong. right now precision Cruise missiles are more like what Cruise missiles were before they started taking target size and speed into account. Like pre-huge missile nerf. Not fun. =(
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:00:00 -
[18]
One could think all these resurrections of old missile threads at the same time is a conspiracy to get attention to the opinions that precisions are overpowered...
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pwned |
Steppa
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild
I hate it when someone brings up real life comparisons as a smokescreen to distract attention from the issue at hand - precision missiles being immensely overpowered. Gameplay should always take precedence over realism.
Originally by: Trevize dk
This goes for BS in eve and for ships IRL.
There are Battleships in real life?
Not in the last 50 years I can assure you.
The USS Wisconsin and the USS Missouri both participated in Desert Storm and both fired shots in anger. I believe that was somewhat less than 50 years ago.
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Talthrus
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:15:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Talthrus on 22/04/2006 18:15:58
Originally by: Dr Fighter
I do not think their overpowered, its only their use at clse range thats 'overpowered'. A bunch of long range BS will easly smush any cepter not moving at decent traversal, news flash thats the same for precisions as soon as a cepter or frigate pilot ogoes more than XX km/s the precisions dont do any dmg at all even if they are traveling directly to the target (low trans = dead cepter to guns fire).
FFS dont nerf precisions, it takes me half as many missiles to kill small things, which is often more than it takes normal cruise to kill a cruiser.... a frigate lasting longer than a cruiser..... thats already good in my book. Lets not for get that webbed/painted frigs at 2-10kms will die horribly to close range BS aswell. And lets forget the 24k isk ver volly cost!!!!
They are not overpowered, just overused. And we still have WCS dont we, Christ almightly you've all gone soft!!!!
Deal with it, its a game ffs and its working very well get out their and play it.
The problem here is not hitting frigs at long range. Tell me ... can turret guns hit inties orbiting point blank at insane speeds? Nope. Can missles? They most certainly can.
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Darth Qordis
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:20:00 -
[21]
This is not even a problem. See all this is pointless as real problem is massive huge lag that happens every single time there is a battle even remotely looking like fleet battle. Real fleet battles would be like 200 ship vs. same amount of ship. ATM. you can basically forget that.
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SonShadowCat
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Logan Fyreite
Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild
I hate it when someone brings up real life comparisons as a smokescreen to distract attention from the issue at hand - precision missiles being immensely overpowered. Gameplay should always take precedence over realism.
Originally by: Trevize dk
This goes for BS in eve and for ships IRL.
There are Battleships in real life?
Not in the last 50 years I can assure you.
First, the US navy used battleships in the 1996 war called Desert storm. They fired Tomahawk Cruise missiles and 16 in guns on targets in Kuwait.
If you want to make real life compairsons, let's look at cruise missiles. The Tomahawk takes roughtly 2 hours to properly target and upload a target to the missiles internal navigation systems. Russian Cruise missiles on the other hand could be fired in minutes and seek out the largest target on their radar screen, however they are not hand guided by anyone to a specific target.
Precision Cruise missiles seem a little overpowered, and it is hurting the gameplay some, but not nearly as much as ECM which is completely overpowered. Not everyone is fitting Cruise missiles. Precision need to be nerfed tho. When you get BS's using Cruise missiles to kill what is essentially the smallest target in eve short of a stealth Bomber or recon ship there is something wrong. right now precision Cruise missiles are more like what Cruise missiles were before they started taking target size and speed into account. Like pre-huge missile nerf. Not fun. =(
Desert storm was in 1991, not 1996. Cruise missiles have a much faster prep time due to better speed between target aquisition and firing.
A slight nerf wouldn't hurt maybe but keep in mind that missile users sacrifice speed( takes a while for missiles to hit you know) for some extra dmg.
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Litus Arowar
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Posted - 2006.04.22 18:34:00 -
[23]
guys please don't ******* discuss this... I'm already ****ed off at god damn naughty boy for posting a link to the previous precision missiles discussion... my brain is bleeding right now from what I read on the first 3 pages
the arguments make no sense, the logic is not there
> precision cruises are ok because if you go at 7km/s they can't hurt you! how do you frickin do that, tell me! with 4 domination nanofibers and a gistii a-type MWD you're going under 6200m/s...
> but it's ok, cause they cost lots of money! yeah cause the gistii MWD is cheap
> but I trained for 2 months to use these tech 2 missiles! well I trained for 12 million skillpoints to fly my inty well and I still have to die
> but turret users can instapop frigates from really far! yes, if the frigate isn't keeping up the proper transverse velocity
there's no disadvantage to just sticking some precision cruises in your cargo hold currently and using them for popping interceptors in a couple of volleys... and don't give me the whole "but those precision cruises cost 9K each!", so what's that, 110K in order to kill my 15 mill isk interceptor? that's fair!
I'm becoming one of THOSE people, I hate these arguments, they make no sense
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tiller
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Posted - 2006.04.22 19:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Litus Arowar
guys please don't ******* discuss this... I'm already ****ed off at god damn naughty boy for posting a link to the previous precision missiles discussion... my brain is bleeding right now from what I read on the first 3 pages
the arguments make no sense, the logic is not there
> precision cruises are ok because if you go at 7km/s they can't hurt you! how do you frickin do that, tell me! with 4 domination nanofibers and a gistii a-type MWD you're going under 6200m/s...
> but it's ok, cause they cost lots of money! yeah cause the gistii MWD is cheap
> but I trained for 2 months to use these tech 2 missiles! well I trained for 12 million skillpoints to fly my inty well and I still have to die
> but turret users can instapop frigates from really far! yes, if the frigate isn't keeping up the proper transverse velocity
there's no disadvantage to just sticking some precision cruises in your cargo hold currently and using them for popping interceptors in a couple of volleys... and don't give me the whole "but those precision cruises cost 9K each!", so what's that, 110K in order to kill my 15 mill isk interceptor? that's fair!
I'm becoming one of THOSE people, I hate these arguments, they make no sense
Why oh why do people always post 'blah blah not fair not fair' NOT FAIR ????... what the hell. Would your 15m isk ceptor killing / pinning down my 400m isk raven be fair ?
Eve is a game that lets you train for any ship and and fitting you want. There is no 'unfair' in it. Sure a little balance is good, but I don't see precisions currently being that uber and I use them every day. I've seen a AF tank my precisions for over 3mins in a 7rof raven and I have near on 10m sp in missiles.. the reason ?, he knew how to fit a ship well.
Precisions dont hit that hard on a hardened target. Precisions don't hit that hard on a large target (compared with torps).... it's all swings and roundabouts.
Don't like something, don't cry about it, fly something else....
Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage |
slip66
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Posted - 2006.04.22 19:34:00 -
[25]
Percision cruise > WCS.
Originally by: StOrM ViPeR
Theres a skill called surgical strike in game I've learned that it actually stands for Band of Brothers |
tiller
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Posted - 2006.04.22 19:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: slip66
Percision cruise > WCS.
Though together they make a nice combination 
Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.22 19:36:00 -
[27]
Yep, isn't T2 amo stupid. Remove it, add in new T2 amo with T1 damage and added secondary effects, fix faction amo drop rates and add faction missiles.
Sorted!
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Astrum Proeliator
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Posted - 2006.04.22 20:02:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Astrum Proeliator on 22/04/2006 20:04:03
imo, theres no problem with Precision Cruise. People moan about being popped by them in fleet battles etc... does that mean that BS can only fight BS? Or AF Vs Cruiser? No.
People moan just because the support killer is a BS. Ok, remove Precision Cruise. I'll come back in a Cerb with Precision Heavies. Will you moan when your Inty gets popped by that?
Ravens have little use in large fleet combat as discussed time and time again. Nobody wants to wait months for missiles to make their merry way across the battlefield. Remove Precisions and you remove the basis of a useful fleet Raven. If you nerf precisions, then they have little place over Torps + painters.
The reason they are "overused" is because theres few other options for a good Raven.
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LCIceo
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Posted - 2006.04.22 20:41:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Yep, isn't T2 amo stupid. Remove it, add in new T2 amo with T1 damage and added secondary effects, fix faction amo drop rates and add faction missiles.
Sorted!
What kinda effect are you talking about?
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Dampfschlaghammer
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Posted - 2006.04.22 20:42:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Yep, isn't T2 amo stupid. Remove it, add in new T2 amo with T1 damage and added secondary effects, fix faction amo drop rates and add faction missiles.
Way to go!
Regarding Raven sucking in fleet battle: actually in longer drawn out engagements T2 ammo Raven has become a more viable option again, owing to its huge damage output. Generally, a good role for the raven in fleet ops would be having much higher damage than all other BS at long range, but slower arrival of damage. The Raven could need a further buff to fully live up to this role, though. However, it certainly is not a solution to counter lack of versatility in one area by boosting it in another unrelated are to the extent of removing an integral part of the game, i.e. the role of support in fleet ops.
Quote:
Don't like something, don't cry about it, fly something else....
Well theres no argument to be made here, I guess. Some people want balance, some people want their pwnmobile. Some people want different options in fleet battle, others want everybody to fit precision cruise missiles.
Lets just hope CCP is on the "balance" side  .
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