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Proposal to handle macro miners

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Caine 607	Posted - 2006.04.24 18:16:00 - [31] Edited by: Caine 607 on 24/04/2006 18:32:20 Originally by: Artica Silverfox Get your best friends from the NPC corp together and form an industry/mining corporation of your own. It really ain't all that scary as some people make it out to be. You can even make your own chat channel if you wish to remain in touch if they do not wish to leave the safe confines of the NPC corp sandbox. Artica, I appreciate what you're saying but as I suggested before, We 'sandbox-people' actually like the comfort and warmth of our NPC surroundings, it has everything in place ready to service our modest needs - No taxes, lively conversation, immunity from war declarations etc. I could never even begin to understand the PvP'ers' obsession with player corp allegiances, nor their apparent disdain for players who choose to interact in a less assertive capacity but I find that the challenges provided by the game for us backward carebears is more than sufficient to keep me entertained.
Wizerud	Posted - 2006.04.24 18:27:00 - [32] Why should those who haven't left their newbie corp be treated like second-class citizens? There's no reason to force something on regular, honest players just because of a minority who are cheating. That's not a solution. Well it is, but it causes bigger issues than the one you're trying to fix. All you're doing is increasing the chances that those honest players will be forced to take part in PvP which is perhaps something they don't want to do. That doesn't mean they don't accept that PvP is part of the game, they just don't want it forced down their throats. They don't want to willingly participate in it. And guess what, that's their choice. Say goodbye to a large number of players if you remove that option. It's not like anyone is truly safe anywhere, anyway. You don't have to make PvP your playstyle of choice to merely accept that it is there. I like it, it adds danger, makes the game more exciting, but it doesn't mean I want it to dictate my game. The only way to get rid of macro-miners effectively is for CCP to locate these players using obviously better tools at their disposal than they have now. It takes time and it takes a lot of effort but if they really give a crap about it's something they should focus on rather than pretending the problem will go away. Oh, and SOE didn't need to use any lawyers to force E-Bay to remove those auctions. CCP could request the same thing, they just haven't asked yet. Quite why is beyond me if they give a damn about the effect macrominers have on the economy of the game. Maybe CCP have calculated that macrominers activities don't have a measurable effect on the economy and perhaps that's why they haven't done anything about it.
trimdonite	Posted - 2006.04.24 18:37:00 - [33] Originally by: Lluthiunne Atalaron :( i' am actually growing pretty tired of these macro-miner haxor foriegn hating threads. It seems alot of people play this game now with the sole goal of suicide ganking macro-miners. Has anyone actually thought that you are targetting the wrong group - that maybe the players buying from ebay etc are the ones who should be targeted. This falls into CCP domain to curb n control. Until then leave em alone and play the game. I for one wont let a few 24/7 miners dictate how i play the game. and for every thread like this there is one or two like you who have to flame. I'm gonna guess your not a miner and don't rely on minerals as a source of income. I used to be and i watched as local belts were stripped of any decent ore by oiktiaehggie and his friends. It made making money hard, and its even worse now. So instead of flaming just think about what your going to say first. Not everyone has the skills or inclination to rat or do missions.
Serpensis	Posted - 2006.04.24 19:19:00 - [34] No barges in noob-corps? Ppl stay in these corps to avoid getting wardecced by idiots who has nothing else to do than to wardec every single corp they run across. Bad idea, still beating the same old horse with the same old stick. -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.24 19:37:00 - [35] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 24/04/2006 19:38:29 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 24/04/2006 19:37:28 Originally by: Rells Originally by: Drew Peacock They will just adapt. In my area there used to be lots of macro miners in barges, but Bl4zer and his crew made life too hot for them. So, they adapted, now there are lots of macro miners in battleships round here. And if they cant fit mining lasers to battleships then what? As for them being in BSes, Im not the slightest scared of their BSes. They make 1 corp per miner. And if you wardec, change corp. At 1.5 mil for a corp to 2 mil for a wardec, they come out ahead. Slap a 10% tax on Newbie corps, simple enough. Wizerud, there are certain legal implications to accepting the Ebay VERO program. I know a tiny MMO I was involved with refused to use it because of them. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Marden Grace	Posted - 2006.04.24 19:38:00 - [36] Edited by: Marden Grace on 24/04/2006 19:39:50 While I'm not in an NPC corp, I don't believe that forcing players out of the NPC corps is at all fair. Hell, what if I left my corp and I' put into the NPC corp automatically? Now I can't mine anymore until I join a new corp or make my own. If I make my own corp and I get wardecced? How do I defend myself with a retriever without any help from members? I don't know how else to combat macrominers aside from detecting the macro. In the meantime, I'll be harassing them by stealing their ore in hopes that they'll eventually leave my system. Addition since I missed a post: Tax on newbie corps? So now newbs will make money even slower, huh? As someone said in a post earlier, people in NPC corps shouldn't be treated like second class citizens. With these changes you're hurting honest players more than the macrominers.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.24 19:43:00 - [37] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 24/04/2006 19:44:00 They have deliberately CHOSEN to be second class citizens by refusing to leave the nest. I see no reason that the clutch mother shouldn't take a cut. I'm not interested in macrominers... and no, I'm not really concerned that they're the minority either. When there is unacceptable abuse, you have to act against it. Eve is not a game where you should be free to forever make ISK with zero risk. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Zaldiri	Posted - 2006.04.24 19:59:00 - [38] Here's maybe an addition to the idea. Each noob corp has a specialised mining wing... which you have to apply for seperatly and which gives you the ability to use BS with mining lasers and barges. This mining wing also retains the neutrality and chat channel of the main noob corp. The mining wing applications are vetted by a GM to stop marco miners. thus allowing real miners to stay in noob corps. ----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.24 20:04:00 - [39] Great, and you just tied up valuable GM time doing something which the farmers (no, they're not macroing unattended, they have someone looking after the PC farm...) will manage to breeze through anyway. GG. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Viktor Fyretracker	Posted - 2006.04.24 20:05:00 - [40] whats needed is multiple tier player corps, such as having one that is extremely costly to war dec(say 200-300mil a day, pennies for an alliance or 0.0 corp) but also cant deploy stations or join an alliance but gets the benifits of being its own corp otherwise. call an LLC, basicly the EVE equal to a small business and not a major corperation.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.24 20:08:00 - [41] That's called the Faction War corps, and they're in Kali. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Kryss Darkdust	Posted - 2006.04.24 20:31:00 - [42] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 24/04/2006 13:29:15 Just a proposal to handle macrominers that crossed my mind. Im kind of sick of needing ot look in 50 belts for a nasteroid to orbit to test my ship config and I can imagine how they hurt the newbies. 1) Make it so that barges can not be driven by players in newbie corps. 2) Make it so that mining lasers can not be fitted to any ship larger than a cruiser unless you are in a player corp. The whole idea here is to make it so that the macrominers cant use the most powerful mining tools without being in a corp. A corp which could then be war deced and then we, the players, will handle it from there. Just a thought ... comments? The simplest solution is to have a 2-3 week cut off time for being in a newbie corp. Its impossible to fly a barge after only 2 weeks (to my knowledge) so I think that would eliminate the problem. This problem really could be solved by players, there are several corps and even a couple of alliances create with the specific task of finding and killing micro miners.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2006.04.24 20:55:00 - [43] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 24/04/2006 19:44:00 They have deliberately CHOSEN to be second class citizens by refusing to leave the nest. I see no reason that the clutch mother shouldn't take a cut. Why would you want to make the game less accessible to people that might have less time to play? They're the most likely to remain in the newb corps for non-nefarious reasons, and I can't quite fathom why you'd want to ( to extend the metaphor ) clip their wings because they can't or don't want to fly the way you think they should. Now if a dev came along and said "Minimum of 8 hours a week or we don't want you to subscribe", that'd be one thing, but it seems that there are a sizeable number of people who actually enjoy the game at a different level than you do. I just can't fathom your apparent hostility toward their preference. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.24 21:08:00 - [44] There is no relation between less time to play and a PC corp...there are plenty of loose freelance corps which accept casual players. I'm against the rule twisting possible by staying in a NPC corp. Period. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Wizerud	Posted - 2006.04.24 21:53:00 - [45] Edited by: Wizerud on 24/04/2006 21:55:02 Originally by: Maya Rkell They have deliberately CHOSEN to be second class citizens by refusing to leave the nest. I see no reason that the clutch mother shouldn't take a cut. I'm not interested in macrominers... and no, I'm not really concerned that they're the minority either. When there is unacceptable abuse, you have to act against it. Eve is not a game where you should be free to forever make ISK with zero risk. Yeah let's see how many macro-miners leave the newbie corp just because there's a 10% tax. My guess - zero. You seem to be under the impression that newbie corp players are already second-class citizens. They're not. But what the original poster is proposing will make them so.
Hamshoe	Posted - 2006.04.24 21:53:00 - [46] Originally by: Maya Rkell There is no relation between less time to play and a PC corp...there are plenty of loose freelance corps which accept casual players. And in saying that you acknowledge that there is a relationship. One that you'd like to force people out of. Originally by: Maya Rkell I'm against the rule twisting possible by staying in a NPC corp. Period. Rule twisting? I don't see any there, but you're obviously for changing the rules to suit your preferences. If I choose not to join a player corp for whatever reason ( for today, I'm a megalomaniacal agorophobic misanthrope ), why should your disagreement with some third party's actions allow you to trump my choice? Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.24 21:57:00 - [47] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 24/04/2006 21:58:33 No, Hamashoe, there is no relationship. There are plenty of casual-friendly corps. You're posting entirely for the purposes of trying to depict my words entirely opposite to what I mean, and it the simple truth of the matter. I'm for changing the rules to elimininate abuseive elements of gameplay. I'm really NOT that bothered with individual reactions or why you're afraid of the dark. Eve is a PvP game. Deal or move on. Wizerud, I disagree with the op because it'd be ineffective. Period. 10% tax? They'd be out like a shot. Also, they are farmers, not macro miners. Big difference in operating procedures. And no, they're protected beyond anyone else so currently they're the FIRST class citizens. Which is rubbish, bluntly. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Wizerud	Posted - 2006.04.24 22:05:00 - [48] I still don't see how a 10% tax will do anything other than force them to say, "ok we'll be making 90% of what we were making before". I don't think 10% is enough. NOW , if you were to say that players belonging to a newbie corp had to pay 50% taxes on all minerals and ore sold, then maybe I could see them fretting about it. But then again, you're hurting the honest players.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.24 22:10:00 - [49] Because when you're dealing with RL cash, yes, 10% is a lot. And not enough for new players to worry about for the first few weeks of their Eve life. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Hamshoe	Posted - 2006.04.24 23:51:00 - [50] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 24/04/2006 21:58:33 No, Hamashoe, there is no relationship. There are plenty of casual-friendly corps. You're posting entirely for the purposes of trying to depict my words entirely opposite to what I mean, and it the simple truth of the matter. Which in itself is an acknowledgement that time available is an influence on corp membership. Just because there are corps that a casual player could join, doesn't mean there's no relationship. Originally by: Maya Rkell I'm for changing the rules to elimininate abuseive elements of gameplay. I'm really NOT that bothered with individual reactions or why you're afraid of the dark. Eve is a PvP game. Deal or move on. PvP != corp, correct? That bit's meaningless. Or is there no place for the individual in your world? You're for changing the rules to force people to play in the manner you prefer, the very antithesis of one of the strengths of this game. If this were a thread about ganking, I'm sure there would already have been some choice comments about how momma ain't here to hold your hand the minute you started in on having the rules changed to suit your mood. Again, why should your prefered playstyle trump mine? Radical idea here, why not punish people for breaking the rules instead of trying to force people to do things your way? If you want to stop "sweatshop" mining, let's start smacking the people who buy, sell, or (as was mentioned previously) advertise the buying and selling of isk. As long as there's a market, there will be folks willing to to supply it. Your objective may be laudable, but your method smacks around a lot of people who aren't part of the problem. Kicked in the head by a horse, what's your excuse?
Caine 607	Posted - 2006.04.25 00:14:00 - [51] Beautifully put Hamshoe !
Nukeitall	Posted - 2006.04.25 00:15:00 - [52] Edited by: Nukeitall on 25/04/2006 00:16:56 I proposed a solution awhile ago. It went like this. Only newbie corp players could mine in specific "newbie" flagged systems. (No ice. Just veld.) They cannot mine anywhere else until they join a (real) corp. Further, they cannot fly anything bigger then a cruiser. What does this do? Well, it forces people to disperse. Macro miners (if they choose to remain safe) will have to literally stumble over each other to mine the newbie systems, quite literally 'starving' on the lack of mine-able asteroids. (Their production also sharply decreases.) If they choose to move to the greener pastures, they no longer become safe. They become hunt-able. If they choose to leave their corp to avoid a war, they go back to the newbie corp for a day or so.(a new mandatory time limit would need to be implemented.) The problem with this solution is....not so severe but does exist. First, the macroers that remain in those systems will literally swarm over each other to get the asteroids and make the poor newbie miners life hell. This might be countered by early rewards to get newbies to get out - or making the veld respawn faster. That's my solution. It's the best and most complete I've come up with. Of course, there's the whole "I should be able to do what I want" factor....but some draconian measures must be taken in order to keep the game intact.
SoIid	Posted - 2006.04.25 01:38:00 - [53] Edited by: SoIid on 25/04/2006 01:38:22 Just my personal opinion on the matter. First off who cares the so called macro miners have hung themselves. Between Ebay and all the other gold and isk selling sites the market is so flooded with isk for sale from thier macro mining that its worthless now. Just look and you will see by flooding all these isk selling sites i basicly makes isk virtualy worthless, kind like if your government was to mass produce currency and flood the market with it it would kill the value, so what am I saying? basicly they screwed themselves and they wont be around long.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.25 02:00:00 - [54] Hamshoe, sigh, and there are corps which won't take players who play lots. There's corps of all sorts, except those who just whine and don't do anything. Individual? Sure, their own corp. I'm for changing the rules to eliminate abuses of the game system, I don't care about you in particular. I don't go for personal or gratuituous insults unless it's someone who's been uncivil to me in the past. I'm blunt, that's all. And again, it's not about playstyles, it's about eliminating rule abuses. Play precisely how you want. If you want extra safety, then pay for it. I also really don't get bothered about ISK pharmers and that ilk. They are not my concern in this thread. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Kahani Lyn	Posted - 2006.04.25 02:27:00 - [55] If Eve is a PVP game why does the system work like that in the first place? I vote to make all player corporation pilots unable to fly in 0.7 and up.
AKaaron10	Posted - 2006.04.26 22:18:00 - [56] Edited by: AKaaron10 on 26/04/2006 22:21:26 Originally by: Drew Peacock Originally by: Lluthiunne Atalaron It seems alot of people play this game now with the sole goal of suicide ganking macro-miners. Has anyone actually thought that you are targetting the wrong group - that maybe the players buying from ebay etc are the ones who should be targeted. This falls into CCP domain to curb n control. Until then leave em alone and play the game. I for one wont let a few 24/7 miners dictate how i play the game. I tell you what, you give me the names of those who buy from eBay and I'll pass it along to the suicide gankers. Maybe you don't mine, but in regions that are infested with macro miners the gameplay of those who wish to legally mine is being ruined by those who choose to cheat. Exactly. I started mining Glacial Mass as a decent way to earn ISK. Macro Miners busted the market. I'm lucky to get half of what I used to. And what Lluthiunne Atalaron doesn't seem to notice is that every single solar system is being strip mined into little, worthless pebbles. Because macro miners don't just go for the expensive stuff, they take it all like locusts. And frankly I don't care what nationality they are, as EVE Online players they're ruining the game. They don't play the game, they work a job. I've wrestled with them for the past month. Drew, maybe you have a better perspective, but I still think they can be driven away from a system. If you're interested, let me know. Organizing against them is right up my alley. (I posted a message in the recruitment folder for more info). AK; also known as Pillbox: the Pride of Rens GALACTIC DRIFT could use your help. Apply in Ryddinjorn.
Fester Addams	Posted - 2006.04.27 00:30:00 - [57] First of all, its NPC corps, not newbie corps, there are plenty of people whom have played this game for a loong time and never left their initial NPC corp, true they miss out of the fun one can have in a player corp but they always have alot of people to chat to in their corp chat, not all corps are huge mega corp sized ones that constantly have 20+ players online. The game is designed to suport the solo player as well as the corp player and so it should remain. Originally by: Rells 1) Make it so that barges can not be driven by players in newbie corps. How will this solve anything? A new corp costs 1mil to create and it takes 24hrs for a war to go hot, all the macroers would have to do is hide in a nondecript corp untill war is declared and then jump to a new one. Remembedr here that leaving a corp to avoid a war is not an exploit, leaving a corp to avoid a fight is. Quote: 2) Make it so that mining lasers can not be fitted to any ship larger than a cruiser unless you are in a player corp. Again, what will this solve? The macrominers will simply create a new corp each time war is declared and move to it. In reality all you will do is make it really anoying for the non macro miner players that will loose the net of contacts you get through the NPC corp, the macro miner will be mildly inconvenienced but in a day or so he will have figured out the logistics for mining in a barge and avoiding war declarations.
Commander Spike	Posted - 2006.04.27 00:32:00 - [58] i think you need to leave the npc corps alone, it makes no difference where players are, ok you cannot war dec, but nothing stopping you from killing them, ok you lose security status, but you can work to bring it back up.
Gia Terra	Posted - 2006.04.27 00:47:00 - [59] Sorry but the unable to mine with barge's whilst in newbie corp would never work. I've heard people in Rookie Help ready to leave the game solely for not being able to train Industrial. I'm willing to bet those who did stay after multiple explanations would certainly leave if they then found out they had further restriction's unless they joined a corp. When I was on trial and saw that Industrial wasn't trainable unless your on a full account I switched over but then I was already hooked on the game. I have my main in a corp. and this alt. who I wish to keep solo, i'm sure other's want to have a similar setup. I can't see why I should have my alt. join a corp. when I don't want to be a part of one, i'm in the npc corp as your put in it by default and i'm not setting up a 1 man corp. to have some nitwit wardec me. My main does a mix of mining and missions/rat hunting and the roid belt I mainly used has recently been mined to hell and back of it's best ore, same goes for belts in neighbouring system's. So whilst i'd like to see something done regarding this, no mining barges for npc corp miners and taxes on npc corp miners i'd rather not see.
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.04.27 11:03:00 - [60] after one month in game if youre ina NPC Corp (account not individual alts) if youre main is over 1 month any alts in NPC corp have a 50% tax same goes for NPC corpers would soon slowt he macroers or double their numbers making them easier to spot

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