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Divine Entervention
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
109
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
As a new player, there seems to be a large amount of veterans who steer us noobs towards joining these corporations.
It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential community to a standardized social services department.
BNI and EVE-U being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with raising the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off new players and hope they transform into something you will want to harness later.
You want new players to stay, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and training. You just want to hand that responsibility off to BNI and EVE-U, make them do the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor.
Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others? |
Victor Andall
Complexes and Abaddons
241
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others?
Because veteran players have corporations that engage in certain activities. Noob training is not one of them.
And as you mentioned, there are Corporations that serve exactly that purpose.
That's why when you try to get a job they don't always handle your training.
It's a system, nothing more. You don't have to take it personal.
Furthermore, noob corporations such as EVE UNI are specialized in new player training both ideologically and logistically in a way that other corps are not. I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?
Andall Combat Tournaments - on hiatus. Contact for more information. |
Don Aubaris
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Because they are capitalistic pigs that outsource everything that doesn't deliver them a decent return in a very short time. Even their kids
Just as in RealLife
Although some will make the point of course that a specialized corporation can deliver better output at a lower cost. In this case : players that now what they do.
Also just as in RealLife |
Divine Entervention
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
109
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Victor Andall wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others? Because veteran players have corporations that engage in certain activities. Noob training is not one of them. And as you mentioned, there are Corporations that serve exactly that purpose. That's why when you try to get a job they don't always handle your training. It's a system, nothing more. You don't have to take it personal.
On one hand, you'll say new players can be a huge asset. People will list multiple ways a new player can have an impact. Yet all the corporations have minimum skill point requirements in the multi millions. The answer is to join one of the established new player helping corporations.
You say we're valuable, but then you show us we're not by not accepting us.
If you'll tell me that a new player should continue to play because he can influence and participate at any level, then why will they not be accpeting those new players?
So your words say "stick around", but your actions say "Your potential contribution isn't worth my time". |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
574
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Orphanage and boarding school totally dismisses the value that the experienced players in those Corps bring to new players in the game.
That's not what they are at all and in recommending them, it's less a case of packing off wayward boys, and more a case of trying to provide advice that is known to be useful.
There are a lot of Corporations with veteran players that help train new players, but veteran players don't need to go researching who they are, because they don't need them. When a new player comes along and asks, it's easy to recommend the well known ones, who have structures and systems specifically designed to offer support in the early period.
There is nothing sinister, underhanded or dismissive in that approach. Those are just the Corps that everyone knows about.
Whether new players are useful or not has less to do with Skillpoints and more to do with attitude. A good attitude makes even a low SP player like myself, useful to a Corp.
But nut jobs are useful to no one. eve-bazaar - Discount prices on ships and PLEX. Real savings to drive your ISK further. |
Victor Andall
Complexes and Abaddons
241
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Victor Andall wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others? Because veteran players have corporations that engage in certain activities. Noob training is not one of them. And as you mentioned, there are Corporations that serve exactly that purpose. That's why when you try to get a job they don't always handle your training. It's a system, nothing more. You don't have to take it personal. On one hand, you'll say new players can be a huge asset. People will list multiple ways a new player can have an impact. Yet alot of the corporations have minimum skill point requirements in the multi millions. The answer is to join one of the established new player helping corporations. You say we're valuable, but then you show us we're not by not accepting us. If you'll tell me that a new player should continue to play because he can influence and participate at any level, then why will they not be accpeting those new players? So your words say "stick around", but your actions say "Your potential contribution isn't worth my time".
Most player corporations would be doing you a disservice by accepting you early on.
New players are valuable to the game and the community, this is true.
But they are not valuable to all player corporations.
Let me give you some examples:
Mining Corps running Mining Operations in Exhumer fleets with Orca Support.
Faction Warfare PvP Corporations.
Hauling Corporations that use Freighters.
Salvaging corporations that use fleets of Noctis hulls.
You need to think about what YOU are bringing to the table as well, because these activities take up most of a corporation's time. They have little to no time showing you the ropes ESPECIALLY when there are corporations that dedicate full time to the same goal.
So not only would you be inefficient in their corporation, they would be equally inefficient in training you.
I think you're taking offense where there is no offense to be taken. I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?
Andall Combat Tournaments - on hiatus. Contact for more information. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1412
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
EVE is not for people that need their hand held. I don't mean to be blunt but it's a basic truth of this game.
We need new players that are willing to learn on their own in the game. Sure you can get help along the way but if I were to take the time to explain how to produce Antimatter charges from a BPO efficiently, it'll take a good 15 minutes. Imagine all the newbie questions that come up day in and day out...it gets tedious.
Most corporations will help you but a lot of discovery and learning is based on your initiative. If you don't feel like your corp is not allowing you to contribute, then find out why or find another corp. Again, it's not the corporation's responsibility to make you happy, it's yours. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
234
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
That is BNI and EVE-UNIs business model. Thats how they create and fund their own content.
Whats not to understand about that?
You are assuming some ephemeral responsibility or duty of care on the part of the community to educate new players, where none exists. |
Divine Entervention
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alright cool thanks for the information.
The past month I'd been told repeatedly that as a new player, everyone has a use.
But apparently that's not the case. There have been multiple explanations in this thread alone as to why people don't want to waste their time with new people, so I guess it's understandable if new people decide it's not worth wasting their time for people who don't want to reciprocate.
Thanks for taking the time to answer! Much appreciated. |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
1059
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Most people recommend new players to EVE-U and BNI because they know what they are doing, know how to get a new player started in game better than most other corps out there. A well established corp really doesn't want to take the time to train new players when they're working hard to maintain what they have got already. Why train your new players when someone can do it better than you can yourself?
It's like real life you know... you go to university before you get hired out by some big corp. |
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Arsine Mayhem
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote: So your words say "stick around", but your actions say "Your potential contribution isn't worth my time".
The real question is why do I care one way or another? |
Seven Koskanaiken
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
977
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Firstly, no one "had them set up" and no one "makes them" do anything. They were set up, and are run, by people who enjoyed what they did and wanted to play the sandbox that way.
Secondly, there's 100s of academy corps in other alliances that do training as well.
Thirdly, there's plenty of other corps where there's no official training but newbs learning through fleets and ops, asking questions, chatting etc. happens all the time. Sometimes people in the corp cannot dedicate themselves to training or don't think they are doing justice to training, at which point EUNI or something like it may be suggested to the person as an option. |
Divine Entervention
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 10:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:Most people recommend new players to EVE-U and BNI because they know what they are doing, know how to get a new player started in game better than most other corps out there. A well established corp really doesn't want to take the time to train new players when they're working hard to maintain what they have got already. Why train your new players when someone can do it better than you can yourself?
It's like real life you know... you go to university before you get hired out by some big corp.
It's kind of funny how easily people in this game flip the switch between proper and improper real life comparisons |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
235
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:The past month I'd been told repeatedly that as a new player, everyone has a use.
You have been lied to, and believed something that is fundamentally not true. It is their fault for talking nonsense, but also your own fault for believing it.
You are not automatically useful ingame, or out of it, to ANYONE, unless you make yourself useful or have some skill or capacity that you perform which is useful.
A rock at rest on a beach is not useful to anyone. That same rock in your hand when you bash someones skull with it, however, now is useful. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10322
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
You're advised to join those corps because they are known to take in new players and train them in many aspects of a complex game. EVE Uni takes a more traditional educational approach while others like GoonWaffe, Dreddit and Brave Newbies just throw you into the frying pan. The former is the only one that intends for its members to eventually move on from their organization.
I can say from experience that running a newbie-friendly organization while accommodating high-skillpoint veterans is a challenge because I manage our mentoring program. It involves logistical pains, as T1 frigates and cruisers for our newbies are extremely expensive to import to 0.0 given their expendable nature. It depends on having volunteers willing to fit hundreds of these frigates and hand them out to newbies when they request them. I wrote a whole article about this in the past and it only begins to scratch the tip of the iceberg. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Anomaly One
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
There are various other corps that accept new players, whether they offer training/SRP or not depends, but the most established and well known are those you listed, BNI, EVE-uni, RvB for pvp etc. so everyone has heard of them and they accept newbies fairly quickly.
Now saying that no one else does this can't be more wrong, there are tons of mining corps, pirate corps, industry even wormhole corps... that "hold the hand" of newbies, they are just not as well know those mentioned.
And what's wrong with having established corps for this? you have the general ones, and if a newbie doesn't find them to their satisfaction he can take a quick look in recruitment forums and will find plenty of active corps to suit his/her playstyle. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
278
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:As a child, there seems to be a large amount of parents who steer us young ones towards joining these schools.
It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential family to a standardized social services department.
Schools and Universities being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with educating the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off children and hope they transform into something you will be proud of later.
You want to have children, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and education. You just want to hand that responsibility off to schools and universities, make them do the hardwork so you can be proud of their labor.
Why will the parents of Earth argue that they want children, but then put forth no effort towards educating those children, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should children want to take part in a family of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others? FTFY. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
576
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:It's kind of funny how easily people in this game flip the switch between proper and improper real life comparisons It's not funny how they flip the switch, but where they flip it.
Some are able to make reasonable comparisons to real situations and others, not so much.
Clearly what is reasonable is different for different people, but in general some common sense rules apply. eve-bazaar - Discount prices on ships and PLEX. Real savings to drive your ISK further. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1413
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Alright cool thanks for the information.
The past month I'd been told repeatedly that as a new player, everyone has a use.
But apparently that's not the case. There have been multiple explanations in this thread alone as to why people don't want to waste their time with new people, so I guess it's understandable if new people decide it's not worth wasting their time for people who don't want to reciprocate.
Thanks for taking the time to answer! Much appreciated. Sounds like you are confirming your own bias - that everyone is selfish and won't help you so you should just give up on this game. It sounds like the classic "let me trash this idea so I'll believe it and then I can be happy knowing it wasn't want I really wanted anyway". Success?
However, you are wrong about everyone doesn't have a use. Every player does have a use in some way shape or form. You, believe it or not, have a use. You are someone who does something in the sandbox, which affects everyone else. Every time you mine or buy something market, you are a use to someone else.
But if you want to have an impact, then you need to get out of your pity parade and jump into the fray. Anyone with a frigate fit with a microwarp drive, warp disrupter, and a webber can tackle someone in pvp. Guess what we never seem to have enough of in PVP? Fast tackle. Anyone can grab the pile of 3rd party tools out there and start making their isk work for them. You can start to trade billions and buy the things you always though were reserved for "veterans."
The key variable here though is YOU. No one is going to walk you to the EVE Garden of Happiness, you need to figure out where that is and where you fit. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
235
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tell me, Divine, how can you be useful to me? |
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Caedon Markus
Fallen Praetorians
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
I smell some trolling up in here.
Regardless, the OP is missing the fact that the focus of many corps is to perform advanced game functions. The OP's query is about the same as asking why any advanced team, be it in business, sports, military, etc. might want to foster development responsibilities off on groups who cater to less experienced people.
If you join a real life business, they generally anticipate that you have gone through some training prior to that point (college, trade school, etc.).
OP needs to relax a bit and recognize that EVE is not an instant gratification game. That is part of what makes it so beautiful. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1330
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
BNI seems to be trying to get rid off their feeder/training alliance image (at least angry BNI members flame me every time I bring it up). |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
17064
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Simply put, newbies are directed towards certain corps because they've specialised in giving newbies a significant hand up the learning curve, and they have the infrastructure to do so.
You know, like a school, where you send children to learn stuff.
Psychotic Monk for CSM 9 |
Rashnu Gorbani
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So your words say "stick around", but your actions say "Your potential contribution isn't worth my time". It's not rocket science. You're only valuable because of the potential. Right now you're not even good for cannon fodder for the big corporations involved in wars or whatever big scale operations. If we all played on the level of first day newbies we'd need to fly noob ships all the time. Sure you're missing out on a lot of the game right now because of skills and experience, it doesn't mean everyone should. It's like saying that sunday league teams should play in champions league as well. Well theoretically they can just not right away :) These are corporations, surely it's perfectly normal that they specialize? By the way a lot of people contribute to eg. eve-uni. Some may donate, others may provide content by wardecs. In any case many outsiders contribute too. |
Reiisha
Evolution
518
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Victor Andall wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others? Because veteran players have corporations that engage in certain activities. Noob training is not one of them. And as you mentioned, there are Corporations that serve exactly that purpose. That's why when you try to get a job they don't always handle your training. It's a system, nothing more. You don't have to take it personal. On one hand, you'll say new players can be a huge asset. People will list multiple ways a new player can have an impact. Yet alot of the corporations have minimum skill point requirements in the multi millions. The answer is to join one of the established new player helping corporations. You say we're valuable, but then you show us we're not by not accepting us. If you'll tell me that a new player should continue to play because he can influence and participate at any level, then why will they not be accpeting those new players? So your words say "stick around", but your actions say "Your potential contribution isn't worth my time".
Most corporations are extremely focused and ask a lot of commitment from their members. When inviting a friend over to play, i always steer them to E-UNI, simply because they can explore their options at a much more comfortable pace. You don't get called to ops every 2 hours, there's no expectations that you carry a lot of responsibilities, you don't have to worry about making mistakes...
You want new players to have their own fun before they decide whether joining your corp is the best idea for them. E-UNI at least offers a relaxed environment to learn the game in (i don't know much about BNI but i hear they're pretty cool too).
Those new players always have the option of saying 'no' and finding their own way, but in my experience that usually results in them quitting soon after...
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all... |
Tarkelan
Konzil der Drei Weakend Warriors
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Alright cool thanks for the information.
The past month I'd been told repeatedly that as a new player, everyone has a use.
But apparently that's not the case. There have been multiple explanations in this thread alone as to why people don't want to waste their time with new people, so I guess it's understandable if new people decide it's not worth wasting their time for people who don't want to reciprocate.
Thanks for taking the time to answer! Much appreciated.
A good reason why the so called veterans turn new players to BNI or EUNI is that it if you want to do it right with new player training it's a huge time investment. An investment that very often doesn't pay off. Only a low percentage of new players stay in EVE for more than a few months. Nobody likes to be frustrated. Schools like the mentioned corps doing a better job to teach new players effectivly.
Thought there are a ton of small corps that also recruite new players right from the start from time to time.
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Grunanca
Doughboys Shadow Cartel
162
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:As a new player, there seems to be a large amount of veterans who steer us noobs towards joining these corporations.
It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential community to a standardized social services department.
BNI and EVE-U being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with raising the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off new players and hope they transform into something you will want to harness later.
You want new players to stay, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and training. You just want to hand that responsibility off to BNI and EVE-U, make them do the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor.
Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others?
Because this is a game people play to have fun. It is not a work, and you are not paid to do it. Some people like to play with likeminded old players and dont have any need/social skill/interest in interacting with new players. Others have a good time teaching new players. Personally I used to like teaching new players. Now several years after, I dont have as much time as I got a full time job, and as part of my job is teaching, having to spend hours of my free sparse spare time teaching instead of having fun is not really what I pay for and mainly feels like work for me. With that said I have had several good conversations with new players, and have given plenty of advise. But there is a long way from that to making a corp/alliance to teach them. |
Pew Terror
Green Associates
114
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Grunanca wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:As a new player, there seems to be a large amount of veterans who steer us noobs towards joining these corporations.
It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential community to a standardized social services department.
BNI and EVE-U being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with raising the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off new players and hope they transform into something you will want to harness later.
You want new players to stay, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and training. You just want to hand that responsibility off to BNI and EVE-U, make them do the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor.
Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others? Because this is a game people play to have fun. It is not a work, and you are not paid to do it. Some people like to play with likeminded old players and dont have any need/social skill/interest in interacting with new players. Others have a good time teaching new players. Personally I used to like teaching new players. Now several years after, I dont have as much time as I got a full time job, and as part of my job is teaching, having to spend hours of my free sparse spare time teaching instead of having fun is not really what I pay for and mainly feels like work for me. With that said I have had several good conversations with new players, and have given plenty of advise. But there is a long way from that to making a corp/alliance to teach them.
Exactly this. This is a game and people can choose how to spend their time. Also, disregarding BNI and EUNI like this along with the people that try to help you have fun in the sandbox is one of the brattishest things i have read here so far. *I WANT A PONY* |
Chopper Rollins
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
559
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
OP victimises. I've explained and demonstrated how to use directional scan many times. The charm wears off as a patter develops. After a while you think: hey, why don't i write this down as a wiki page for the corp? There could be a bunch of wiki pages in order as a curriculum for newbros, a resource for learners and anyone with the inclination and/or temperament to slap a polite smile on their face and trudge through basic crap for the millionth time. You're not a victim of any ill treatment OP...and you're talking to people who've made their way before E-Uni or RvB or any of the many training grounds now available.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good. |
Charlie Firpol
Noob Mercs Monkeys with Guns.
151
|
Posted - 2014.03.12 11:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:BNI seems to be trying to get rid off their feeder/training alliance image (at least angry BNI members flame me every time I bring it up). Thats because they are no feeder alliance. They-¦re not there to train people so they leave and join more serious ones. |
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