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FoxBird Freir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 03:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, Basically the tittle says it all for me.
I know that CCP has known that no one is really happy with the current Sov System in Null.
I know that there are other parts to the game aside from null. And I do enjoy/like the current additions and fixes they've done to null as a whole. However;
Wouldn't it have been a more sound idea to fix Sov FIRST? Instead of doing these other things? I mean Sov is why we live in null really. Now more than ever its evident the system isn't a good one. NO ONE wants fight for Sov, It's boring, tedious and favors the defender enough that they can just make the game unbearable.
Just a curious question is all, I'd love to hear what CCP says. Not raging or ranting, Just wanting to know the reasoning behind why and if/when it will be fixed.
-Fox |

Dominic karin
Trojan Legion Fidelas Constans
30
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 03:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
FoxBird Freir wrote:So, Basically the tittle says it all for me.
I know that CCP has known that no one is really happy with the current Sov System in Null.
I know that there are other parts to the game aside from null. And I do enjoy/like the current additions and fixes they've done to null as a whole. However;
Wouldn't it have been a more sound idea to fix Sov FIRST? Instead of doing these other things? I mean Sov is why we live in null really. Now more than ever its evident the system isn't a good one. NO ONE wants fight for Sov, It's boring, tedious and favors the defender enough that they can just make the game unbearable.
Just a curious question is all, I'd love to hear what CCP says. Not raging or ranting, Just wanting to know the reasoning behind why and if/when it will be fixed.
-Fox
Devs won't answer you. This thread has been made too many times. |

FoxBird Freir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 03:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Could someone point me in the direction of said thread/answer? |

Dominic karin
Trojan Legion Fidelas Constans
30
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 03:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
FoxBird Freir wrote:Could someone point me in the direction of said thread/answer? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=search&search=0.0+sov&forumID=258
Peruse at your leisure.
There's plenty of threads in there. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1137
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 03:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Because no-one can come up with a better Sov system really. Just because it's broken doesn't mean the 'fix' won't be more broken. |

Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
658
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 03:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Your answer is here "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
2729
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 04:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Because no-one can come up with a better Sov system really. Doubtful. For many reasons.
Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |

Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
873
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 04:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Because no-one can come up with a better Sov system really. Doubtful. For many reasons.
Other than POS spamming or PvE to hold sov what is your brilliant idea?
Do tell. |

Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
148
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 05:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Why hasn't anyone fixed society yet? It's clear there's just so many problems with it and over a few thousand years you'd think people would have made "FIX SOCIETY" a priority at some point? Why doesn't blah blah blah blah |

Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 09:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
I understand very little of the Sov situation, but it would seem to me that when most of space is held by one alliance, there is going to be a very great deal of resistance to any potential change from that same signficant majority.
Whatever the problems might be, they are clearly currently working to the advantage of that majority.
Whatever solutions might be enacted, are not likely to increase that advantage, they are far more likely to erode it.
Quite a predicament for CCP.
I suppose much of this all depends on whether any one given individual considers the Sov situations reality ingame to be simply a benign and "natural" part of the games ebb and flow, of the rise and fall of empires, or a result of the games mechanics having stagnated at some point and requiring updating.
From my cursory understanding, I tend to think the latter. This because, if Ive understood correctly, the last time the game ever witnessed such an enormous empire was in the BoB era. But again, if Ive understood correctly, that empire also was pretty much insurmountable through Sov mechanics, and it was the through social engineering (and a crucial mechanic timer) that it was fragmented, ironically by the same people who now run CFC that replaced BoB.
As awesome and ingenious as that feat was, I would hope that ideally the Sov system would have internal mechanics actually related to holding and maintaining that empire, that can be fairly leveraged by other alliances to compete for space. The social engineering part is all well and fine, but its extraneous to the actual game mechanics, which imo should be designed so that they are sufficient in and of themselves, with social engineering as an added alternative, not as the "only" one.
Im quite possibly wrong about all of this, but this is my newb understanding and perspective on it.
As to this thread being in GD, I think its a "general" enough topic to warrant discussion here, alongside more informed and specific threads on more dedcated boards. |

Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
220
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 09:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I understand very little of the Sov situation, but it would seem to me that when most of space is held by one alliance, there is going to be a very great deal of resistance to any potential change from that same signficant majority.
Whatever the problems might be, they are clearly currently working to the advantage of that majority.
In that, you are very much wrong. All sides of nullsec might disagree over preferred solutions, but all the main groups and land-holders solidly agree something needs to be done. As one of those big land holders, we have been very vocal about a change being needed, even if such erodes our current position (in fact, especially if it does, our position is as ludicrous to us as anyone else, but the current situation encourages it). |

Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 09:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:I understand very little of the Sov situation, but it would seem to me that when most of space is held by one alliance, there is going to be a very great deal of resistance to any potential change from that same signficant majority.
Whatever the problems might be, they are clearly currently working to the advantage of that majority. In that, you are very much wrong. All sides of nullsec might disagree over preferred solutions, but all the main group and land-holders solidly agree something needs to be done.
But whatever is done, is likely to erode the control of that main group and landholders. If it does not erode it, it reinforces their control, and the last vestiges of space can be mopped up.
So it is in the interest of said group, to agree something must be done, but then stonewall all suggestions which undermine their own status quo, in favor of those which would allow them to take the remaining areas of space.
Do you see what I mean?
What you actually said above, is that yes, everyone agrees something must be done. But the disagreement over preferred solutiins, is fundamentally between the larger group preferring solutions which would allow them to take the remaining space, and the smaller resisting groups preferring solutions which allow them to enlarge their holdings from the larger group. |

Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 09:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Edited to add to your edit: That is good to hear. I have tremendous respect for Goons, and wish I had joined the community at SA already a decade ago instead of remaining a peasant 4channer. The ingame situation is literally "in your hands". You are the guys who broke BoB. I dont think there is a match anywhere online for the sheer evil genius SA embodies (ingame or out), and Goons by proxy. Lets be real here. Nobody is going to be able to beat you.
Maybe its time to make the supreme sacrifice, for the good of all and the game, including yourselves. Pragmatically, youve managed to leverage your position so well, that youve eliminated the realistic potential of worthy adversaries to rise up and provide you with challenge and content.
That is a sad reward for what basically amounts to "winning the game". |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19930
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 09:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:But whatever is done, is likely to erode the control of that main group and landholders. If it does not erode it, it reinforces their control, and the last vestiges of space can be mopped up.
So it is in the interest of said group, to agree something must be done, but then stonewall all suggestions which undermine their own status quo, in favor of those which would allow them to take the remaining areas of space.
Do you see what I mean? Everyone sees what you mean, but the funny fact is that it's just not what's happening. Contrary to popular conspiratorial belief, these groups argue against their own interest, and this isn't the first instance where that has happened.
The suggestions they GÇ£stonewallGÇ¥ are the ones that claim to be done in service of the smaller guy, but which fail to take into account the simple fact that more people is more and leave open gaping big holes that let the bigger guy trample all over people.
It comes as a real surprise to some, but people who play the game a lot actually want the game to offer good gameplay, even if it means they have to give up some advantage or other.
Quote:But the disagreement over preferred solutiins, is fundamentally between the larger group preferring solutions which would allow them to take the remaining space, and the smaller resisting groups preferring solutions which allow them to enlarge their holdings from the larger group. No, the disagreement is between people who actually use have experience with sov and who can spot huge flaws, and those who don't have that experience and who can't identify the means by which existing entities will (mis)use the proposed mechanics. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |

Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 09:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia, I understamd what you mean, and this was evidenced in Aralyns sentiment, and I dont think it was duplicitous at all. It is a sincere position.
I fully appreciate that many of the misguided suggestions made by the small guys fail to recognise that they would infact be enabling the large guy to stomp them even harder. So they have to be protected from their own ignorance, as Goons et al themsleves already no doubt have contingencies already considered that these small guys cant even dream of, let alone have the resources to enact.
And so it falls to the big guy to make a concessive proposal that ultimately erodes their own control, in the interest of enabling another real challenger to rise up and create content for them to play against. Has a great poetic justice to it, and one I am sure is not lost on Goons et al, to remember that this is still just a game, and that though it is well and fine to have basically "won it", if they want their sandbox to provide fun and good gaming again, they need to allow others to take some small part of it to play and grow in.
On CCPs side of things, perhaps expanding space with some associated special mechanics would introduce an alternative sandbox space that can incubate an alliance for long enough for it to rise to sufficient potential to threaten/engage CFC and provide content again. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19930
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 10:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia, I understamd what you mean, and this was evidenced in Aralyns sentiment, and I dont think it was duplicitous at all. It is a sincere position.
I fully appreciate that many of the misguided suggestions made by the small guys fail to recognise that they would infact be enabling the large guy to stomp them even harder. So they have to be protected from their own ignorance, as Goons et al themsleves already no doubt have contingencies already considered that these small guys cant even dream of, let alone have the resources to enact.
And so it falls to the big guy to make a concessive proposal that ultimately erodes their own control. WeeeellGǪ Actually, it falls to CCP, but I'm sure that if they ever express any interest in doing so, the big guys will be happy to chime in. That's where the real blockage seems to be: it costs dev time GÇö a lot of dev time, since it's a pretty huge mechanic GÇö and it never seems to gain any priority.
So at the time being, everyone just abuses it to hell and back because unfortunately, history has shown this to be the best way to bump it up the listGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |

Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
220
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 10:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: Maybe its time to make the supreme sacrifice, for the good of all and the game, including yourselves. Pragmatically, youve managed to leverage your position so well, that youve eliminated the realistic potential of worthy adversaries to rise up and provide you with challenge and content.
That is a sad reward for what basically amounts to "winning the game".
Heh, I get what you are saying, but part of the fun is making everyone work to bring us down. Someone will, and I sincerely look forward to seeing who and what does the deed. It will be a glorious day! But we can't make it easy on them, it would erode the achievement.
On the subject - I think the problem is that there are so many tremendously-****** parts to sov, that even agreeing on which is the biggest sucking chest wound is hard enough (is it the sov-taking mechanics, POS's, lack of farms and fields, capital proliferation, force projection, the list goes on), so getting a consensus on what to fix first is a trial.
Personally, I support the view that there needs to be more and concentrated means for bottom up income. Lets not kid ourselves, ratting in all its forms utterly sucks, and the current system with anomolies forces large groups to diffuse over a wide area. Given these reasons, alliances are forced to look for top-down income, which they can then filter to their ratting-hating pvp players via reimbursements, attendance incentives, capital and supercapital subsidies, etc. Its why Technitium was such a thing; it was fairly concentrated, easy to contest, and provided a high top-down income, so could provide a large organisation its isk needs without the insane sprawl its successor, renting, outright demands, an income source which is far harder to attack.
|

March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 10:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
FoxBird Freir wrote: I know that CCP has known that no one is really happy with the current Sov System in Null.
...and not one idea i have seen on these forums gathered any support from those 0.0-seccers yet.
So i guess the answer is very simple: no one likes current system and no one knows how to change it to make people happy.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|

Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
248
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 10:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Im a big fan of Frank Herbert, and Im reminded by the above of the threat the Honored Matres posed upon their return from the fringes of space.
Perhaps expanding the sandbox itself is the solution. CfC already have their hands full controlling the current donut. I think even their resources would be strained to simultaneously dominate a geographically remote new area with potentially different sov mechanics.
This would also bypass the conflict of interests in old space, where mechanics remain as they are, in a deadlock, by introducing another space that does not yet have this dichotomy, as a clean slate, and new mechanics can freely be applied without stepping on any of the old guards toes. |

March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1328
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 10:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: Perhaps expanding the sandbox itself is the solution. CfC already have their hands full controlling the current donut. I think even their resources would be strained to simultaneously dominate a geographically remote new area with potentially different sov mechanics.
what will happen after 1-2 years after implementing of this idea? New 'blue doughnut'? + don't forget: already the most powerful alliances will have upper hand in any new areas you will add to the game.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|

Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
844
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 10:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Im a big fan of Frank Herbert, and Im reminded by the above of the threat the Honored Matres posed upon their return from the fringes of space.
Perhaps expanding the sandbox itself is the solution. CfC already have their hands full controlling the current donut. I think even their resources would be strained to simultaneously dominate a geographically remote new area with potentially different sov mechanics.
I know a lot of people would like to make null larger, but imo the game needs conflict and population drives conflict, and null is -very- sparse if I can rent a system for my own personal use (there are only 2700ish null systems so conceptually that is kinda ridiculous, given the number of accounts in the game).
|

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14075
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 10:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
FoxBird Freir wrote:So, Basically the tittle says it all for me.
I know that CCP has known that no one is really happy with the current Sov System in Null.
I know that there are other parts to the game aside from null. And I do enjoy/like the current additions and fixes they've done to null as a whole. However;
Wouldn't it have been a more sound idea to fix Sov FIRST? Instead of doing these other things? I mean Sov is why we live in null really. Now more than ever its evident the system isn't a good one. NO ONE wants fight for Sov, It's boring, tedious and favors the defender enough that they can just make the game unbearable.
Just a curious question is all, I'd love to hear what CCP says. Not raging or ranting, Just wanting to know the reasoning behind why and if/when it will be fixed.
-Fox
Well the main problem is that the new sov system should obviously benefit and suit proper EVE players like me who play the game correctly, and penalise bad EVE players like that other guy who plays the game wrong.
1 Kings 12:11
|

Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
249
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 11:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Well the main problem is that the new sov system should obviously benefit and suit proper EVE players like me who play the game correctly, and penalise bad EVE players like that other guy who plays the game wrong.
With all due respect, this is not helpful... I know you have more to offer than this. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1780
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 11:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
That wasn't an answer. That was just saying "we're not doing much at all with sov in 2014". Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14076
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 11:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
But this is exactly why there hasn't been a new sov system.
There is no universal consensus on what the new system should look like, other than some rather vague top level goals, and there's certainly no consensus on how to promote those goals.
And the reason for that is that there isn't a universal nullsec demographic that is even capable of producing that consensus; the desires of people who want to promote small gang raiding are directly opposed to those who want to promote large scale mining as a routine 0.0 activity, for instance.
So the tl;dr is: CCP are well aware that the current sov system is worse than a bag of dicks for dinner, but that there's no obvious system to replace it.
In the past, CCP have been looking for such a system on the basis that as sov is something that can only be looked at once every 5 years or so*, they need to have a system that will last 5 years or so before committing to the work. In short, there's no sense in committing a 6 month development cycle to a new system unless they're sure it will improve the game, not when there are many other gameplay mechanics equally deserving of attention.
1 Kings 12:11
|

Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
249
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 11:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:In the past, CCP have been looking for such a system on the basis that as sov is something that can only be looked at once every 5 years or so*, they need to have a system that will last 5 years or so before committing to the work. In short, there's no sense in committing a 6 month development cycle to a new system unless they're sure it will improve the game, not when there are many other gameplay mechanics equally deserving of attention.
How close to completing that assessment do you, speculatively, think they are now? |

Seven Koskanaiken
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
977
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 11:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
Best to just wait until they make the new space. Then once everyone moves into that, delete the old system. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14078
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 13:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Malcanis wrote:In the past, CCP have been looking for such a system on the basis that as sov is something that can only be looked at once every 5 years or so*, they need to have a system that will last 5 years or so before committing to the work. In short, there's no sense in committing a 6 month development cycle to a new system unless they're sure it will improve the game, not when there are many other gameplay mechanics equally deserving of attention. How close to completing that assessment do you, speculatively, think they are now?
I honestly don't know. I might even doubt that they're still pursuing a single monolithic sov change. Their new development strategy is based on finding an area of gameplay that needs working on, and then updating it in a way that improves all the game, not just hi-sec or nullsec or whatever. It's difficult to fit a massive sov revamp into that structure.
1 Kings 12:11
|

Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
2300
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 13:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
They have leads and they have ideas, but it represents a huge step into the unknown. They may spend huge amounts of resources with every good intention, yet still come up short in the outcome.
Personally, I think they should nut up and roll the dice, but I can see why they'd rather stay safe with what they have and know works than take a chance on an a potentially unproductive risk. It's just business, like any other company with any other product.
The great thing about capitalism is that if CCP drags behind too long, someone else will just come along and get it right, and Eve will become just another footnote in progress. Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14078
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 14:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
Well the point is, as I said above, sov isn't the only thing that needs fixing. So until they have a clear strategy for sov, then it's obviously better to work on stuff they have one for.
Basically it's a really difficult problem, and the situation makes me :sadface: too because I want sov "fixed" as much as anyone else does.
But I can promise you that if CCP decided to "nut up" tomorrow morning and start implementing my idea of what 0.0 ought to look like then (1) it would take a couple of years and (2) a lot of people in 0.0 would be pretty angry.
1 Kings 12:11
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